I have been away from Csound since a project I finished in the 
Spring.  In preparation for a new project I decided to update my 
printed manual as my last hardcopy was for 4.10.
	Yes, I said "print." I downloaded the current manual and, without 
looking through the document, fired the PDF over to reprographics at 
the college where I teach.
	Being cost conscious as all education institutions are, I wouldn't 
describe the face of the tech staff member as "playful" when I came 
to pick up my order--
	As he walks out from the copy room carrying a box, he looks harried. 
I smile, he doesn't, and he says, "Your really overdoing it with this 
manual."  I laugh shyly wondering what's inside the box, already 
blushing with foreboding.  "It's 1500 pages."  We stare at each other 
--I realize he isn't joking.
	"What!?  Are you sure?"
	He opens the box and we both look inside.  Mostly stunned, I'm 
flipping through 6 inches of stacked paper as he says, " . . . unless 
some characters didn't convert correctly or something."  We both see 
eveything produced correctly.
	"Did you print it double-sided?"  He still doesn't smile.  I laugh 
nervously again.  "Gee, well thanks for the effort."

Charles

-- 
http://www.campdeadly.com
http://www.campdeadly.com/blog

The manual is quite out of hand. Especially when you consider all the blank
space/pages and the number of deprecated items still in it. Last year I had
a beta version of MS Office 2007 and used it to convert the manual to
smaller font, 2 columns, printed it out double-sided and got it down to
'only' about 200 pages. Unfortunately, I didn't save the files. I do still
have the hard copy -- it fits in a 2" binder along with my lilypond manual.


-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/A-funny-sad-manual-tale-tf4940171.html#a14142280
Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

On 3 Dec 2007 at 16:36, Brent Boylan wrote:

> 
> The manual is quite out of hand.
. . .

Yeah, but I'm not complaining really--considering how great Csound 
is, and that it's free.  But one has to admit that a 2,000 page 
manual (produced as a PDF no less, which would imply that it is is to 
be printed) is the kind of document only science people must be used 
to seeing.  Though I suppose there are some 2,000+ page documents 
people read . . . the Bible?  Is this manual bigger than the Bible?  
Nope, just checked.  The Bible is bigger.  Thank God!

But a manual that musicians use?  I can't even get my students to 
read their harmony textbook, and that thing is about as long as an 
issue of X-MEN.  Big books that musicians read?  I don't know.  
There's that Taruskin book on Stavinsky.  I'm reading Alex Ross's THE 
REST IS NOISE, and he quotes Taruskin all over the place so I assume 
he read it.  But he's a musicologist and they LIKE to read.

It would be nice to have a manual that one could get *in hand.*  That 
being said, it's probably better to have the programmers occupied 
with the program itself.  That's always the rub isn't it?  One has to 
know the thing to write about it.

Grabbing a fistful of pages out of the box from reprographics, it 
does seem as though white space could be reclaimed and headings could 
use smaller fonts.  Also, there are these lists, like SIGNAL 
GENERATORS on p116 and following, that could definitely be typeset in 
a more contained manner.

Sorry for your luck, Charles :|

The PDF manual is pretty much a simple conversion from the XML documents
that have always been more optimized for creating HTML.  Yes, there is a lot
that could be done to improve the PDF generation.

I have actually been giving this some thought -- I would really like a
printed copy of the manual too.  If I put a lot of effort into making the
PDFs look nice and then got some copies professionally printed and bound as
books (I think it would have to be two volumes ...), how many people would
be interested in purchasing copies?

Anthony Kozar
Providing custom open-source software services for musicians:
http://services.anthonykozar.net/

Charles Gran wrote on 12/3/07 8:54 PM:

> It would be nice to have a manual that one could get *in hand.*  That
> being said, it's probably better to have the programmers occupied
> with the program itself.  That's always the rub isn't it?  One has to
> know the thing to write about it.
> 
> Grabbing a fistful of pages out of the box from reprographics, it
> does seem as though white space could be reclaimed and headings could
> use smaller fonts.

It sure beats the digital performer manual (1074 pages!).

P

On 4 Dec 2007, at 01:54, Charles Gran wrote:

> On 3 Dec 2007 at 16:36, Brent Boylan wrote:
>
>>
>> The manual is quite out of hand.
> . . .
>
> Yeah, but I'm not complaining really--considering how great Csound
> is, and that it's free.  But one has to admit that a 2,000 page
> manual (produced as a PDF no less, which would imply that it is is to
> be printed) is the kind of document only science people must be used
> to seeing.  Though I suppose there are some 2,000+ page documents
> people read . . . the Bible?  Is this manual bigger than the Bible?
> Nope, just checked.  The Bible is bigger.  Thank God!
>
> But a manual that musicians use?  I can't even get my students to
> read their harmony textbook, and that thing is about as long as an
> issue of X-MEN.  Big books that musicians read?  I don't know.
> There's that Taruskin book on Stavinsky.  I'm reading Alex Ross's THE
> REST IS NOISE, and he quotes Taruskin all over the place so I assume
> he read it.  But he's a musicologist and they LIKE to read.
>
> It would be nice to have a manual that one could get *in hand.*  That
> being said, it's probably better to have the programmers occupied
> with the program itself.  That's always the rub isn't it?  One has to
> know the thing to write about it.
>
> Grabbing a fistful of pages out of the box from reprographics, it
> does seem as though white space could be reclaimed and headings could
> use smaller fonts.  Also, there are these lists, like SIGNAL
> GENERATORS on p116 and following, that could definitely be typeset in
> a more contained manner.
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Hi Steven,

Relating to the max manual I just wanted to mention that there are  
two separate manuals: one for max and one for msp (473 pages).

Max does have one amazing feature and that is each object comes with  
a help patch that you can open by selecting the object and hiting alt  
I think. It would be great if the csound example csds were also  
arranged in such a way that one could open them from within an editor  
(say blue!) by right clicking on the selected opcodes (of course it  
would also be great to have the ability to open selected opcode's  
manual page in blue). But I guess I am diverting a little bit here :-)

Peiman

On 4 Dec 2007, at 06:19, Steven Yi wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Well, the one thing I would say is that a bulk of the manual is
> reference, while the other part act like a user's manual.  I don't
> think anyone is expected to read the entire reference section, but
> rather lookup an opcode here and there when one needs it.  One might
> read most of the user's manual section in the beginning (sections I,
> II, and II) to get an idea of how Csound works and families of opcodes
> to get the big picture, then pick out opcodes here and there as one
> needs it.
>
> Just to note, I have 1257 opcodes listed when I do csound -z.  This is
> with my local compiled version of Csound and does not include all of
> the opcodes which are being built for release. I think some formatting
> changes could certainly be done for the PDF version to bring down the
> size, but we also have to face that there is a lot of information to
> cover.
>
> I just went to cycling74.com and downloaded the manuals for Max 4.6.
> To note, the reference manual there is 724 pages and has quite a bit
> of white space, opting to have each entry at the top of a page which I
> think helps make it quicker to find IMO.  This manual has nice fonts
> and layout which might be good to model the Csound manual on.  I think
> if Max 4.6 came with as many object/opcodes as Csound, it may very
> well have a similar number of pages for a manual if we include the
> pages from the other PDF's there besides the reference (the
> documentation there is split among a number of PDF's).
>
> steven
>
>
> On Dec 3, 2007 5:54 PM, Charles Gran  wrote:
>> On 3 Dec 2007 at 16:36, Brent Boylan wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The manual is quite out of hand.
>> . . .
>>
>> Yeah, but I'm not complaining really--considering how great Csound
>> is, and that it's free.  But one has to admit that a 2,000 page
>> manual (produced as a PDF no less, which would imply that it is is to
>> be printed) is the kind of document only science people must be used
>> to seeing.  Though I suppose there are some 2,000+ page documents
>> people read . . . the Bible?  Is this manual bigger than the Bible?
>> Nope, just checked.  The Bible is bigger.  Thank God!
>>
>> But a manual that musicians use?  I can't even get my students to
>> read their harmony textbook, and that thing is about as long as an
>> issue of X-MEN.  Big books that musicians read?  I don't know.
>> There's that Taruskin book on Stavinsky.  I'm reading Alex Ross's THE
>> REST IS NOISE, and he quotes Taruskin all over the place so I assume
>> he read it.  But he's a musicologist and they LIKE to read.
>>
>> It would be nice to have a manual that one could get *in hand.*  That
>> being said, it's probably better to have the programmers occupied
>> with the program itself.  That's always the rub isn't it?  One has to
>> know the thing to write about it.
>>
>> Grabbing a fistful of pages out of the box from reprographics, it
>> does seem as though white space could be reclaimed and headings could
>> use smaller fonts.  Also, there are these lists, like SIGNAL
>> GENERATORS on p116 and following, that could definitely be typeset in
>> a more contained manner.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Lettuce also has this feature, just press f1 and the manual will open at 
the opcode the cursor is at. What about making opcodes in the manual 
code hyperlinks to their man pages? So all the blue opcodes as they 
appear in the manual csound code would also be hyperlinks to their 
individual pages. Just a thought, perhaps it's a bit much.

Rory.




Brian Wong wrote:
> Peiman,
>  
> blue already has that, just put the cursor on the opcode and press 
> Shift-F1 and it pulls up the page as a new browser tab from your hard 
> drive version of the Csound manual. :)
>  
> bw
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>  > Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:42:55 +0000
>  > To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>  > From: peimankhosravi@gmail.com
>  > Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: A funny/sad manual tale
>  >
>  > Hi Steven,
>  >
>  > Relating to the max manual I just wanted to mention that there are
>  > two separate manuals: one for max and one for msp (473 pages).
>  >
>  > Max does have one amazing feature and that is each object comes with
>  > a help patch that you can open by selecting the object and hiting alt
>  > I think. It would be great if the csound example csds were also
>  > arranged in such a way that one could open them from within an editor
>  > (say blue!) by right clicking on the selected opcodes (of course it
>  > would also be great to have the ability to open selected opcode's
>  > manual page in blue). But I guess I am diverting a little bit here :-)
>  >
>  > Peiman
>  >
>  > On 4 Dec 2007, at 06:19, Steven Yi wrote:
>  >
>  > > Hi All,
>  > >
>  > > Well, the one thing I would say is that a bulk of the manual is
>  > > reference, while the other part act like a user's manual. I don't
>  > > think anyone is expected to read the entire reference section, but
>  > > rather lookup an opcode here and there when one needs it. One might
>  > > read most of the user's manual section in the beginning (sections I,
>  > > II, and II) to get an idea of how Csound works and families of opcodes
>  > > to get the big picture, then pick out opcodes here and there as one
>  > > needs it.
>  > >
>  > > Just to note, I have 1257 opcodes listed when I do csound -z. This is
>  > > with my local compiled version of Csound and does not include all of
>  > > the opcodes which are being built for release. I think some formatting
>  > > changes could certainly be done for the PDF version to bring down the
>  > > size, but we also have to face that there is a lot of information to
>  > > cover.
>  > >
>  > > I just went to cycling74.com and downloaded the manuals for Max 4.6.
>  > > To note, the reference manual there is 724 pages and has quite a bit
>  > > of white space, opting to have each entry at the top of a page which I
>  > > think helps make it quicker to find IMO. This manual has nice fonts
>  > > and layout which might be good to model the Csound manual on. I think
>  > > if Max 4.6 came with as many object/opcodes as Csound, it may very
>  > > well have a similar number of pages for a manual if we include the
>  > > pages from the other PDF's there besides the reference (the
>  > > documentation there is split among a number of PDF's).
>  > >
>  > > steven
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > On Dec 3, 2007 5:54 PM, Charles Gran  wrote:
>  > >> On 3 Dec 2007 at 16:36, Brent Boylan wrote:
>  > >>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> The manual is quite out of hand.
>  > >> . . .
>  > >>
>  > >> Yeah, but I'm not complaining really--considering how great Csound
>  > >> is, and that it's free. But one has to admit that a 2,000 page
>  > >> manual (produced as a PDF no less, which would imply that it is is to
>  > >> be printed) is the kind of document only science people must be used
>  > >> to seeing. Though I suppose there are some 2,000+ page documents
>  > >> people read . . . the Bible? Is this manual bigger than the Bible?
>  > >> Nope, just checked. The Bible is bigger. Thank God!
>  > >>
>  > >> But a manual that musicians use? I can't even get my students to
>  > >> read their harmony textbook, and that thing is about as long as an
>  > >> issue of X-MEN. Big books that musicians read? I don't know.
>  > >> There's that Taruskin book on Stavinsky. I'm reading Alex Ross's THE
>  > >> REST IS NOISE, and he quotes Taruskin all over the place so I assume
>  > >> he read it. But he's a musicologist and they LIKE to read.
>  > >>
>  > >> It would be nice to have a manual that one could get *in hand.* That
>  > >> being said, it's probably better to have the programmers occupied
>  > >> with the program itself. That's always the rub isn't it? One has to
>  > >> know the thing to write about it.
>  > >>
>  > >> Grabbing a fistful of pages out of the box from reprographics, it
>  > >> does seem as though white space could be reclaimed and headings could
>  > >> use smaller fonts. Also, there are these lists, like SIGNAL
>  > >> GENERATORS on p116 and following, that could definitely be typeset in
>  > >> a more contained manner.
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >> Send bugs reports to this list.
>  > >> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>  > >> "unsubscribe csound"
>  > >>
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Send bugs reports to this list.
>  > > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>  > > "unsubscribe csound"
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Send bugs reports to this list.
>  > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body 
> "unsubscribe csound"
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Books, DVD's, gadgets, music and more. Shop online with Sympatico / MSN 
> Shopping today! 
> 

That sounds great!
Thanks Steven

Peiman
On 4 Dec 2007, at 16:25, Steven Yi wrote:

> Hi Peiman,
>
> Brian mentioned the shift-F1 option, but a way to open example CSD's
> for an opcode does sound interesting though and shouldn't take long to
> implement.  I think I'll try adding something to blue that will do
> that. Thanks for mentioning that!
>
> steven
>
> On Dec 4, 2007 4:06 AM, Peiman Khosravi   
> wrote:
>>  Ah wow, this has been a secrete to me for all these years!!!  
>> thanks so much
>> :-)
>>
>> Peiman
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4 Dec 2007, at 11:58, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Peiman,
>>
>> blue already has that, just put the cursor on the opcode and press  
>> Shift-F1
>> and it pulls up the page as a new browser tab from your hard drive  
>> version
>> of the Csound manual. :)
>>
>> bw
>> ________________________________
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:42:55 +0000
>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>> From: peimankhosravi@gmail.com
>>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: A funny/sad manual tale
>>>
>>> Hi Steven,
>>>
>>> Relating to the max manual I just wanted to mention that there are
>>> two separate manuals: one for max and one for msp (473 pages).
>>>
>>> Max does have one amazing feature and that is each object comes with
>>> a help patch that you can open by selecting the object and hiting  
>>> alt
>>> I think. It would be great if the csound example csds were also
>>> arranged in such a way that one could open them from within an  
>>> editor
>>> (say blue!) by right clicking on the selected opcodes (of course it
>>> would also be great to have the ability to open selected opcode's
>>> manual page in blue). But I guess I am diverting a little bit  
>>> here :-)
>>>
>>> Peiman
>>>
>>> On 4 Dec 2007, at 06:19, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> Well, the one thing I would say is that a bulk of the manual is
>>>> reference, while the other part act like a user's manual. I don't
>>>> think anyone is expected to read the entire reference section, but
>>>> rather lookup an opcode here and there when one needs it. One might
>>>> read most of the user's manual section in the beginning  
>>>> (sections I,
>>>> II, and II) to get an idea of how Csound works and families of  
>>>> opcodes
>>>> to get the big picture, then pick out opcodes here and there as one
>>>> needs it.
>>>>
>>>> Just to note, I have 1257 opcodes listed when I do csound -z.  
>>>> This is
>>>> with my local compiled version of Csound and does not include  
>>>> all of
>>>> the opcodes which are being built for release. I think some  
>>>> formatting
>>>> changes could certainly be done for the PDF version to bring  
>>>> down the
>>>> size, but we also have to face that there is a lot of  
>>>> information to
>>>> cover.
>>>>
>>>> I just went to cycling74.com and downloaded the manuals for Max  
>>>> 4.6.
>>>> To note, the reference manual there is 724 pages and has quite a  
>>>> bit
>>>> of white space, opting to have each entry at the top of a page  
>>>> which I
>>>> think helps make it quicker to find IMO. This manual has nice fonts
>>>> and layout which might be good to model the Csound manual on. I  
>>>> think
>>>> if Max 4.6 came with as many object/opcodes as Csound, it may very
>>>> well have a similar number of pages for a manual if we include the
>>>> pages from the other PDF's there besides the reference (the
>>>> documentation there is split among a number of PDF's).
>>>>
>>>> steven
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 3, 2007 5:54 PM, Charles Gran   
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 3 Dec 2007 at 16:36, Brent Boylan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The manual is quite out of hand.
>>>>> . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, but I'm not complaining really--considering how great Csound
>>>>> is, and that it's free. But one has to admit that a 2,000 page
>>>>> manual (produced as a PDF no less, which would imply that it is  
>>>>> is to
>>>>> be printed) is the kind of document only science people must be  
>>>>> used
>>>>> to seeing. Though I suppose there are some 2,000+ page documents
>>>>> people read . . . the Bible? Is this manual bigger than the Bible?
>>>>> Nope, just checked. The Bible is bigger. Thank God!
>>>>>
>>>>> But a manual that musicians use? I can't even get my students to
>>>>> read their harmony textbook, and that thing is about as long as an
>>>>> issue of X-MEN. Big books that musicians read? I don't know.
>>>>> There's that Taruskin book on Stavinsky. I'm reading Alex  
>>>>> Ross's THE
>>>>> REST IS NOISE, and he quotes Taruskin all over the place so I  
>>>>> assume
>>>>> he read it. But he's a musicologist and they LIKE to read.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be nice to have a manual that one could get *in hand.*  
>>>>> That
>>>>> being said, it's probably better to have the programmers occupied
>>>>> with the program itself. That's always the rub isn't it? One  
>>>>> has to
>>>>> know the thing to write about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Grabbing a fistful of pages out of the box from reprographics, it
>>>>> does seem as though white space could be reclaimed and headings  
>>>>> could
>>>>> use smaller fonts. Also, there are these lists, like SIGNAL
>>>>> GENERATORS on p116 and following, that could definitely be  
>>>>> typeset in
>>>>> a more contained manner.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
>>> "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Books, DVD's, gadgets, music and more. Shop online with  
>> Sympatico / MSN
>> Shopping today!
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

This is very true -- I could imagine putting together PDFs of just the new
opcodes or features in new releases so that they could be printed.  But in
the end, a published manual will be out of date pretty quickly.

Anthony

Hector Centeno wrote on 12/4/07 10:14 PM:

> I would be interested in purchasing a printed copy... although some
> times I think Csound develops so fast that a printed manual can become
> dated or incomplete pretty fast.

Hi Steven,

For some reason I hadn't got your new post in my mailbox and just came
across it on the nabble page. I love the new shift-F1 command, it's
amazingly handy :-) now csound manual and examples are as accessible as the
maxmsp once! 

I also very much appreciate the redesign of the orchestra manager. 

Thanks again

Best
Peiman
 

Steven Yi wrote:
> 
> Okay, managed to add that.  It's in CVS and I've placed a beta at:
> 
> http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.120.0_beta_installer.jar
> 
> The shortcut to use is shift-F2 and it will open up the manual CSD
> example blue finds it in the documentation directory.
> 
> Thanks for mentioning the feature!
> steven
> 
> 
> On Dec 4, 2007 9:04 AM, Peiman Khosravi  wrote:
>> That sounds great!
>> Thanks Steven
>>
>> Peiman
>>
>> On 4 Dec 2007, at 16:25, Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Peiman,
>> >
>> > Brian mentioned the shift-F1 option, but a way to open example CSD's
>> > for an opcode does sound interesting though and shouldn't take long to
>> > implement.  I think I'll try adding something to blue that will do
>> > that. Thanks for mentioning that!
>> >
>> > steven
>> >
>> > On Dec 4, 2007 4:06 AM, Peiman Khosravi 
>> > wrote:
>> >>  Ah wow, this has been a secrete to me for all these years!!!
>> >> thanks so much
>> >> :-)
>> >>
>> >> Peiman
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 4 Dec 2007, at 11:58, Brian Wong wrote:
>> >> Peiman,
>> >>
>> >> blue already has that, just put the cursor on the opcode and press
>> >> Shift-F1
>> >> and it pulls up the page as a new browser tab from your hard drive
>> >> version
>> >> of the Csound manual. :)
>> >>
>> >> bw
>> >> ________________________________
>> >>
>> >>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:42:55 +0000
>> >>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> >>> From: peimankhosravi@gmail.com
>> >>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: A funny/sad manual tale
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Steven,
>> >>>
>> >>> Relating to the max manual I just wanted to mention that there are
>> >>> two separate manuals: one for max and one for msp (473 pages).
>> >>>
>> >>> Max does have one amazing feature and that is each object comes with
>> >>> a help patch that you can open by selecting the object and hiting
>> >>> alt
>> >>> I think. It would be great if the csound example csds were also
>> >>> arranged in such a way that one could open them from within an
>> >>> editor
>> >>> (say blue!) by right clicking on the selected opcodes (of course it
>> >>> would also be great to have the ability to open selected opcode's
>> >>> manual page in blue). But I guess I am diverting a little bit
>> >>> here :-)
>> >>>
>> >>> Peiman
>> >>>
>> >>> On 4 Dec 2007, at 06:19, Steven Yi wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi All,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Well, the one thing I would say is that a bulk of the manual is
>> >>>> reference, while the other part act like a user's manual. I don't
>> >>>> think anyone is expected to read the entire reference section, but
>> >>>> rather lookup an opcode here and there when one needs it. One might
>> >>>> read most of the user's manual section in the beginning
>> >>>> (sections I,
>> >>>> II, and II) to get an idea of how Csound works and families of
>> >>>> opcodes
>> >>>> to get the big picture, then pick out opcodes here and there as one
>> >>>> needs it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just to note, I have 1257 opcodes listed when I do csound -z.
>> >>>> This is
>> >>>> with my local compiled version of Csound and does not include
>> >>>> all of
>> >>>> the opcodes which are being built for release. I think some
>> >>>> formatting
>> >>>> changes could certainly be done for the PDF version to bring
>> >>>> down the
>> >>>> size, but we also have to face that there is a lot of
>> >>>> information to
>> >>>> cover.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I just went to cycling74.com and downloaded the manuals for Max
>> >>>> 4.6.
>> >>>> To note, the reference manual there is 724 pages and has quite a
>> >>>> bit
>> >>>> of white space, opting to have each entry at the top of a page
>> >>>> which I
>> >>>> think helps make it quicker to find IMO. This manual has nice fonts
>> >>>> and layout which might be good to model the Csound manual on. I
>> >>>> think
>> >>>> if Max 4.6 came with as many object/opcodes as Csound, it may very
>> >>>> well have a similar number of pages for a manual if we include the
>> >>>> pages from the other PDF's there besides the reference (the
>> >>>> documentation there is split among a number of PDF's).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> steven
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Dec 3, 2007 5:54 PM, Charles Gran 
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>> On 3 Dec 2007 at 16:36, Brent Boylan wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The manual is quite out of hand.
>> >>>>> . . .
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Yeah, but I'm not complaining really--considering how great Csound
>> >>>>> is, and that it's free. But one has to admit that a 2,000 page
>> >>>>> manual (produced as a PDF no less, which would imply that it is
>> >>>>> is to
>> >>>>> be printed) is the kind of document only science people must be
>> >>>>> used
>> >>>>> to seeing. Though I suppose there are some 2,000+ page documents
>> >>>>> people read . . . the Bible? Is this manual bigger than the Bible?
>> >>>>> Nope, just checked. The Bible is bigger. Thank God!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> But a manual that musicians use? I can't even get my students to
>> >>>>> read their harmony textbook, and that thing is about as long as an
>> >>>>> issue of X-MEN. Big books that musicians read? I don't know.
>> >>>>> There's that Taruskin book on Stavinsky. I'm reading Alex
>> >>>>> Ross's THE
>> >>>>> REST IS NOISE, and he quotes Taruskin all over the place so I
>> >>>>> assume
>> >>>>> he read it. But he's a musicologist and they LIKE to read.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It would be nice to have a manual that one could get *in hand.*
>> >>>>> That
>> >>>>> being said, it's probably better to have the programmers occupied
>> >>>>> with the program itself. That's always the rub isn't it? One
>> >>>>> has to
>> >>>>> know the thing to write about it.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Grabbing a fistful of pages out of the box from reprographics, it
>> >>>>> does seem as though white space could be reclaimed and headings
>> >>>>> could
>> >>>>> use smaller fonts. Also, there are these lists, like SIGNAL
>> >>>>> GENERATORS on p116 and following, that could definitely be
>> >>>>> typeset in
>> >>>>> a more contained manner.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> >>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> >>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> >>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> >>> "unsubscribe
>> >> csound"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________
>> >> Books, DVD's, gadgets, music and more. Shop online with
>> >> Sympatico / MSN
>> >> Shopping today!
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Send bugs reports to this list.
>> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>> > "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
> 
> 

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haha correction (!): ...maxmsp *ones.


peiman wrote:
> 
> Hi Steven,
> 
> For some reason I hadn't got your new post in my mailbox and just came
> across it on the nabble page. I love the new shift-F1 command, it's
> amazingly handy :-) now csound manual and examples are as accessible as
> the maxmsp once! 
> 
> I also very much appreciate the redesign of the orchestra manager. 
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Best
> Peiman
>  
> 
> Steven Yi wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, managed to add that.  It's in CVS and I've placed a beta at:
>> 
>> http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.120.0_beta_installer.jar
>> 
>> The shortcut to use is shift-F2 and it will open up the manual CSD
>> example blue finds it in the documentation directory.
>> 
>> Thanks for mentioning the feature!
>> steven
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 4, 2007 9:04 AM, Peiman Khosravi  wrote:
>>> That sounds great!
>>> Thanks Steven
>>>
>>> Peiman
>>>
>>> On 4 Dec 2007, at 16:25, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi Peiman,
>>> >
>>> > Brian mentioned the shift-F1 option, but a way to open example CSD's
>>> > for an opcode does sound interesting though and shouldn't take long to
>>> > implement.  I think I'll try adding something to blue that will do
>>> > that. Thanks for mentioning that!
>>> >
>>> > steven
>>> >
>>> > On Dec 4, 2007 4:06 AM, Peiman Khosravi 
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>  Ah wow, this has been a secrete to me for all these years!!!
>>> >> thanks so much
>>> >> :-)
>>> >>
>>> >> Peiman
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 4 Dec 2007, at 11:58, Brian Wong wrote:
>>> >> Peiman,
>>> >>
>>> >> blue already has that, just put the cursor on the opcode and press
>>> >> Shift-F1
>>> >> and it pulls up the page as a new browser tab from your hard drive
>>> >> version
>>> >> of the Csound manual. :)
>>> >>
>>> >> bw
>>> >> ________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >>> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:42:55 +0000
>>> >>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>> >>> From: peimankhosravi@gmail.com
>>> >>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: A funny/sad manual tale
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hi Steven,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Relating to the max manual I just wanted to mention that there are
>>> >>> two separate manuals: one for max and one for msp (473 pages).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Max does have one amazing feature and that is each object comes with
>>> >>> a help patch that you can open by selecting the object and hiting
>>> >>> alt
>>> >>> I think. It would be great if the csound example csds were also
>>> >>> arranged in such a way that one could open them from within an
>>> >>> editor
>>> >>> (say blue!) by right clicking on the selected opcodes (of course it
>>> >>> would also be great to have the ability to open selected opcode's
>>> >>> manual page in blue). But I guess I am diverting a little bit
>>> >>> here :-)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Peiman
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 4 Dec 2007, at 06:19, Steven Yi wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Hi All,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Well, the one thing I would say is that a bulk of the manual is
>>> >>>> reference, while the other part act like a user's manual. I don't
>>> >>>> think anyone is expected to read the entire reference section, but
>>> >>>> rather lookup an opcode here and there when one needs it. One might
>>> >>>> read most of the user's manual section in the beginning
>>> >>>> (sections I,
>>> >>>> II, and II) to get an idea of how Csound works and families of
>>> >>>> opcodes
>>> >>>> to get the big picture, then pick out opcodes here and there as one
>>> >>>> needs it.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Just to note, I have 1257 opcodes listed when I do csound -z.
>>> >>>> This is
>>> >>>> with my local compiled version of Csound and does not include
>>> >>>> all of
>>> >>>> the opcodes which are being built for release. I think some
>>> >>>> formatting
>>> >>>> changes could certainly be done for the PDF version to bring
>>> >>>> down the
>>> >>>> size, but we also have to face that there is a lot of
>>> >>>> information to
>>> >>>> cover.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I just went to cycling74.com and downloaded the manuals for Max
>>> >>>> 4.6.
>>> >>>> To note, the reference manual there is 724 pages and has quite a
>>> >>>> bit
>>> >>>> of white space, opting to have each entry at the top of a page
>>> >>>> which I
>>> >>>> think helps make it quicker to find IMO. This manual has nice fonts
>>> >>>> and layout which might be good to model the Csound manual on. I
>>> >>>> think
>>> >>>> if Max 4.6 came with as many object/opcodes as Csound, it may very
>>> >>>> well have a similar number of pages for a manual if we include the
>>> >>>> pages from the other PDF's there besides the reference (the
>>> >>>> documentation there is split among a number of PDF's).
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> steven
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Dec 3, 2007 5:54 PM, Charles Gran 
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>> On 3 Dec 2007 at 16:36, Brent Boylan wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> The manual is quite out of hand.
>>> >>>>> . . .
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Yeah, but I'm not complaining really--considering how great Csound
>>> >>>>> is, and that it's free. But one has to admit that a 2,000 page
>>> >>>>> manual (produced as a PDF no less, which would imply that it is
>>> >>>>> is to
>>> >>>>> be printed) is the kind of document only science people must be
>>> >>>>> used
>>> >>>>> to seeing. Though I suppose there are some 2,000+ page documents
>>> >>>>> people read . . . the Bible? Is this manual bigger than the Bible?
>>> >>>>> Nope, just checked. The Bible is bigger. Thank God!
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> But a manual that musicians use? I can't even get my students to
>>> >>>>> read their harmony textbook, and that thing is about as long as an
>>> >>>>> issue of X-MEN. Big books that musicians read? I don't know.
>>> >>>>> There's that Taruskin book on Stavinsky. I'm reading Alex
>>> >>>>> Ross's THE
>>> >>>>> REST IS NOISE, and he quotes Taruskin all over the place so I
>>> >>>>> assume
>>> >>>>> he read it. But he's a musicologist and they LIKE to read.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> It would be nice to have a manual that one could get *in hand.*
>>> >>>>> That
>>> >>>>> being said, it's probably better to have the programmers occupied
>>> >>>>> with the program itself. That's always the rub isn't it? One
>>> >>>>> has to
>>> >>>>> know the thing to write about it.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Grabbing a fistful of pages out of the box from reprographics, it
>>> >>>>> does seem as though white space could be reclaimed and headings
>>> >>>>> could
>>> >>>>> use smaller fonts. Also, there are these lists, like SIGNAL
>>> >>>>> GENERATORS on p116 and following, that could definitely be
>>> >>>>> typeset in
>>> >>>>> a more contained manner.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>> >>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>> >>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> >>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>> >>> "unsubscribe
>>> >> csound"
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ________________________________
>>> >> Books, DVD's, gadgets, music and more. Shop online with
>>> >> Sympatico / MSN
>>> >> Shopping today!
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body
>>> > "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@lists.bath.ac.uk with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

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