Hi,

Following information from Dave Phillips, I've added vst4cs as build
target on linux. It now compiles, and can load native linux plugins. I
got sound out of zr3 after some hackery of its source.... vst4cs still
needs a little work.
But this is a start.
I've also added new types for FLbutton, FLslider, FLbutBank and
FLslidBnk which will produce nicer looking "plastic" sliders.
See the manual.

Cheers,
Andrés


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Hi,

It would be great if more vst plugins were linux native, since it would
seem to me they are more stable than using things like fst or xfst.
The main issue with vst plugins on linux is their GUI, the audio
algorithms should build without changes. I think the JUCETICE project is
in the process of porting the complete vstgui(a crossplatform framework
for developing the gui of a vst plugin), I 'm not sure if it's
completely finished , so if the plugin developer used this framework,
porting should not be that hard (although it still might be impossible
or really really hard, depending on what he used).

I remember using ticky clav, and seeing their website, there's also
cheeze machine there. That would also be a nice one to run natively on
linux.

Jost:
http://www.anticore.org/jucetice/

There are no minimal requirements for the audio engine, and it seems the
vst sdk version is also not important (though maybe some features are
still not implemented). It would make things a lot easier if the gui is
written to use vstgui. If not, a port to gtk or something that works in
linux would need to be done for the gui. I could give a hand with the
gui if the project is open source, but I'm not sure if the developers
want this. It's still generous of them to be enthusiastic for linux support.
I don know colinux, but it seems to be in an early stage. If there is no
linux install available, maybe it'll work better with knoppix.

A little note about vst support on linux. There's still very little
support for native vst's, though I think it'll probably grow a lot. I
think the only software that currently supports native linux vst is jost
and energyxt2. Csound is on it's way, but there's still work to be done.

Cheers,
Andres

Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
> This is very nice.
>
> The VST instrument Ticky Clav is now almost the only reason (for me)
> for sticking with windows.
>
> I emailed the author of Ticky Clav (Clavinet VST instrument, free and
> great sounding, do check it out) to ask if he could do a native Linux
> version. He immediately responded that he could do this. But he needs
> some information that I'm not competent to give him, could you please
> assist ?
>
> Here's what he said:
> "I could compile a Linux version if you give me more details about
> running vstis in Linux. What are the minimal requirements ? Is it
> possible to use colinux under windows to develop them ?"
>
> best
> Oeyvind
> 2007/3/12, Andres Cabrera :
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> Following information from Dave Phillips, I've added vst4cs as build
>> target on linux. It now compiles, and can load native linux plugins. I
>> got sound out of zr3 after some hackery of its source.... vst4cs still
>> needs a little work.
>> But this is a start.
>> I've also added new types for FLbutton, FLslider, FLbutBank and
>> FLslidBnk which will produce nicer looking "plastic" sliders.
>> See the manual.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andrés
>>
>>
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One problem with all of this is that the VST SDK license is not compatible
with many open-source software licenses!  You have no rights to redistribute
any portion of the VST SDK, and if you use any GPL or LGPL code that you
have not written yourself, then you cannot satisfy the [L]GPL requirements
for redistribution.

If people really want VST better supported on Linux, then they should also
bug Steinberg for an SDK that is more friendly to open source.

Just my $0.02.

Anthony

Andres Cabrera wrote on 3/18/07 8:33 AM:

> There are no minimal requirements for the audio engine, and it seems the
> vst sdk version is also not important (though maybe some features are
> still not implemented). It would make things a lot easier if the gui is
> written to use vstgui. If not, a port to gtk or something that works in
> linux would need to be done for the gui. I could give a hand with the
> gui if the project is open source, but I'm not sure if the developers
> want this. It's still generous of them to be enthusiastic for linux support.
> I don know colinux, but it seems to be in an early stage. If there is no
> linux install available, maybe it'll work better with knoppix.
> 
> A little note about vst support on linux. There's still very little
> support for native vst's, though I think it'll probably grow a lot. I
> think the only software that currently supports native linux vst is jost
> and energyxt2. Csound is on it's way, but there's still work to be done.


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Andres Cabrera wrote:

>It would be great if more vst plugins were linux native, since it would
>seem to me they are more stable than using things like fst or xfst.
>The main issue with vst plugins on linux is their GUI, the audio
>algorithms should build without changes. I think the JUCETICE project is
>in the process of porting the complete vstgui(a crossplatform framework
>for developing the gui of a vst plugin), I 'm not sure if it's
>completely finished , so if the plugin developer used this framework,
>porting should not be that hard (although it still might be impossible
>or really really hard, depending on what he used).
>
I've been working with Lucio Asnaghi for a while, testing and debugging 
his JOST VST host. IMO, while the project has great potential it faces 
serious issues regarding greater acceptance.

Licensing issues with the VST SDK have not gone away. There was some 
activity on the part of linuxaudio.org to gain Steinberg's permission to 
change to a more amenable license. but nothing concrete has emerged yet.

I highly doubt we'll see an easy transition for VST developers, at least 
not under the current licensing restrictions. Lucio has had to rewrite 
some parts of the vstgui code, and unfortunately the licensing terms 
forbid such rewrites for public consumption. In addition, the ported 
plugins themselves require some rewriting, and it remains to be seen if 
the original developers will find enough incentive to adapt their code.

Further, Lucio has modified some of the JUCE code as well. I have no 
idea whether these modifications will be accepted into the JUCE 
framework, though Lucio does work closely with the JUCE developers. So 
at this time any work with the JOST/JUCE code is provisional and subject 
to possibly severe  alteration later.

On top of all this activity there is a distinct division between Lucio 
and some members of the Linux audio development community. While I 
admire Lucio's attitude towards Steinberg's licensing it doesn't really 
solve the problem, and most of the Linux devels of my acquaintance are 
punctilious about observing the terms of any license. Somewhere, 
somehow, somebody needs to find someone at Steinberg who can effect the 
requisite changes.

And no, distributing precompiled binaris for Linux isn't likely to work 
well. Linux distros and systems vary too much in their details, and 
without a change in licensing the distros are forbidden to include 
plugins built to any particular distro's specs.

At this point any interested Csound user will need to take the following 
steps before s/he can work with vst4cs + JOST :

1) Download and install the VST SDK.
2) Download and install the modifed vstgui code.
3) Download and compile the JUCE framework. (This step may not be 
necessary soon.)
4) Download and compile the JOST software (currently at version 0.2.0).
5) Download and compile the code for the VST plugins that have been 
ported for JOST.

Advanced Linux users may have no problem with this situation, but it is 
of little use to relative newbies. Remember, this process is mandated at 
present, and  you cannot legally modify and redistribute Steinberg's 
code. The whole project is a bit edgy for me to be involved with, but I 
see seamless support for VST/VSTi plugins as a major goal for Linux as a 
viable audio platform with wider appeal. Personally, I can live without 
VST plugins, but I can also see that they are of prime importance to 
many musicians (and I would love to have more VSTi softsynths running on 
Linux).

Perhaps some of the smaller VST development houses will see an 
opportunity to sell more of their plugins to Linux users. I doubt that 
the bigger devels are going to take any interest until a provable and 
considerable market share exists. Unfortunately the licensing of the 
Steinberg SDK is unambiguous with regards to redistribution and 
modification of the code, and in its current form is hostile to the GPL. 
The LGPL may be a solution, I haven't dug into that pit yet.

I believe that it's a good idea to continue development of vst4cs, but 
please understand that the JOST project is in early stages of 
development. Lucio refers to his software as alpha-stage, and I agree. 
It is not ready for prime-time, but I think it's headed in the right 
direction.

I welcome opinions and comments on this topic. It would be even cooler 
if more hands were involved with the JOST project.

Best,

dp


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Sorry.  I was of course not aware of any of these efforts, being neither a
significant Linux nor VST user.

My comments come from a concern that there seem to be portions of the VST
SDK code included in Csound CVS.  Furthermore, if I understand the licenses
correctly, no one other than Michael Gogins may have a legal right to build
and distribute CsoundVST, because other people cannot simultaneously satisfy
the requirements of both the LGPL license for CsoundVST and for the VST SDK.
(Michael is not subject to the LGPL for CsoundVST since he is the sole
author).

I know there are a lot of projects not paying very close attention to these
details.  It has the potential though to undermine the credibility of the
entire free software movement.

Once again, just my opinions on the matter ...

Anthony

Michael Gogins wrote on 3/18/07 11:56 AM:

> I have repeatedly bugged them, and also urged the VST mailing list to bug
> them, which they did, all to no avail.
> 
> Steinberg replied that they would think about it, but nothing has happened.
> 
> We should keep pestering them.

Dave Phillips wrote on 3/18/07 12:11 PM:

> Licensing issues with the VST SDK have not gone away. There was some
> activity on the part of linuxaudio.org to gain Steinberg's permission to
> change to a more amenable license. but nothing concrete has emerged yet.
> [...]
> Advanced Linux users may have no problem with this situation, but it is
> of little use to relative newbies. Remember, this process is mandated at
> present, and  you cannot legally modify and redistribute Steinberg's
> code. The whole project is a bit edgy for me to be involved with, but I
> see seamless support for VST/VSTi plugins as a major goal for Linux as a
> viable audio platform with wider appeal. Personally, I can live without
> VST plugins, but I can also see that they are of prime importance to
> many musicians (and I would love to have more VSTi softsynths running on
> Linux).
> [...]  Unfortunately the licensing of the
> Steinberg SDK is unambiguous with regards to redistribution and
> modification of the code, and in its current form is hostile to the GPL.
> The LGPL may be a solution, I haven't dug into that pit yet.


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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the great information. Csound currently doesn't use JUCE, and
probably will not (not more dependancies, please! =) ). I don't think
changes in JOST or JUCETICE would negatively affect vst4cs, since vst4cs
won't use it and it will rely only on the vst sdk.
I think what's good about supporting vst on linux natively is that there
are many free and open source vst plugins out there which can enrich
what we do. There is a big problem with the license, Anthony does have a
point....

Cheers,
Andrés

Dave Phillips wrote:
> Andres Cabrera wrote:
>
>   
>> It would be great if more vst plugins were linux native, since it would
>> seem to me they are more stable than using things like fst or xfst.
>> The main issue with vst plugins on linux is their GUI, the audio
>> algorithms should build without changes. I think the JUCETICE project is
>> in the process of porting the complete vstgui(a crossplatform framework
>> for developing the gui of a vst plugin), I 'm not sure if it's
>> completely finished , so if the plugin developer used this framework,
>> porting should not be that hard (although it still might be impossible
>> or really really hard, depending on what he used).
>>
>>     
> I've been working with Lucio Asnaghi for a while, testing and debugging 
> his JOST VST host. IMO, while the project has great potential it faces 
> serious issues regarding greater acceptance.
>
> Licensing issues with the VST SDK have not gone away. There was some 
> activity on the part of linuxaudio.org to gain Steinberg's permission to 
> change to a more amenable license. but nothing concrete has emerged yet.
>
> I highly doubt we'll see an easy transition for VST developers, at least 
> not under the current licensing restrictions. Lucio has had to rewrite 
> some parts of the vstgui code, and unfortunately the licensing terms 
> forbid such rewrites for public consumption. In addition, the ported 
> plugins themselves require some rewriting, and it remains to be seen if 
> the original developers will find enough incentive to adapt their code.
>
> Further, Lucio has modified some of the JUCE code as well. I have no 
> idea whether these modifications will be accepted into the JUCE 
> framework, though Lucio does work closely with the JUCE developers. So 
> at this time any work with the JOST/JUCE code is provisional and subject 
> to possibly severe  alteration later.
>
> On top of all this activity there is a distinct division between Lucio 
> and some members of the Linux audio development community. While I 
> admire Lucio's attitude towards Steinberg's licensing it doesn't really 
> solve the problem, and most of the Linux devels of my acquaintance are 
> punctilious about observing the terms of any license. Somewhere, 
> somehow, somebody needs to find someone at Steinberg who can effect the 
> requisite changes.
>
> And no, distributing precompiled binaris for Linux isn't likely to work 
> well. Linux distros and systems vary too much in their details, and 
> without a change in licensing the distros are forbidden to include 
> plugins built to any particular distro's specs.
>
> At this point any interested Csound user will need to take the following 
> steps before s/he can work with vst4cs + JOST :
>
> 1) Download and install the VST SDK.
> 2) Download and install the modifed vstgui code.
> 3) Download and compile the JUCE framework. (This step may not be 
> necessary soon.)
> 4) Download and compile the JOST software (currently at version 0.2.0).
> 5) Download and compile the code for the VST plugins that have been 
> ported for JOST.
>
> Advanced Linux users may have no problem with this situation, but it is 
> of little use to relative newbies. Remember, this process is mandated at 
> present, and  you cannot legally modify and redistribute Steinberg's 
> code. The whole project is a bit edgy for me to be involved with, but I 
> see seamless support for VST/VSTi plugins as a major goal for Linux as a 
> viable audio platform with wider appeal. Personally, I can live without 
> VST plugins, but I can also see that they are of prime importance to 
> many musicians (and I would love to have more VSTi softsynths running on 
> Linux).
>
> Perhaps some of the smaller VST development houses will see an 
> opportunity to sell more of their plugins to Linux users. I doubt that 
> the bigger devels are going to take any interest until a provable and 
> considerable market share exists. Unfortunately the licensing of the 
> Steinberg SDK is unambiguous with regards to redistribution and 
> modification of the code, and in its current form is hostile to the GPL. 
> The LGPL may be a solution, I haven't dug into that pit yet.
>
> I believe that it's a good idea to continue development of vst4cs, but 
> please understand that the JOST project is in early stages of 
> development. Lucio refers to his software as alpha-stage, and I agree. 
> It is not ready for prime-time, but I think it's headed in the right 
> direction.
>
> I welcome opinions and comments on this topic. It would be even cooler 
> if more hands were involved with the JOST project.
>
> Best,
>
> dp
>
>
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Hi,
No, distribution of the binary would be no problem if you are the
writer, and distribution of the source without headers would be no
problem either. The problem is when there is source that depends on the
vst headers. You could not distribute a binary if you are not the author
since the licenses are incompatible.
I think this is correct, is it?

This seems like no problem, but an important aspect of open source is
that the source is independent of the author, and if the author abandons
the project, anyone can take it up.

Cheers,
Andrés

Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
> Also, regarding the licensing question,
> if it will work at all using a precompiled binary,
> would it violate any licensing rules if someone distributed the plugin
> *independently* of any specific distro ? Say, in the same way that
> some of the free VST plugins are distributed today for windows.
>
> best,
> Oeyvind
>
>   
>> 2007/3/18, Dave Phillips :
>>     
>>> And no, distributing precompiled binaris for Linux isn't likely to work
>>> well. Linux distros and systems vary too much in their details, and
>>> without a change in licensing the distros are forbidden to include
>>> plugins built to any particular distro's specs.
>>>
>>>       
>
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Has anibody got success in displaying custom graphical editors (for 
example NI FM7, reaktor etc.) with Csound5? On my widows computer I 
wasn't able to do that with the original vst4cs distribution, so I 
modified the code that now displays the VST graphic editor into a normal 
FLTK panel, so it can be joined to Csound widgets side by side in the 
same panel.

It works with most plugins (i.e. I can work in the editors of them 
during a Csound5 performance), but suffers of some limitations with a 
very few ones, for now. If anibody is interested I can post the code.

Gabriel Maldonado


>   

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Hi Gab,

Very interested! Send it please! I think Michael had done it also with
FLTK, but it's not working on Mac or Linux (and from what you say not
completely on Windows), so maybe your solution will. (Michael's solution
was not there in the original version, but added later- a long time ago,
still)

Cheers,
Andrés

Gabriel Maldonado wrote:
> Has anibody got success in displaying custom graphical editors (for 
> example NI FM7, reaktor etc.) with Csound5? On my widows computer I 
> wasn't able to do that with the original vst4cs distribution, so I 
> modified the code that now displays the VST graphic editor into a normal 
> FLTK panel, so it can be joined to Csound widgets side by side in the 
> same panel.
>
> It works with most plugins (i.e. I can work in the editors of them 
> during a Csound5 performance), but suffers of some limitations with a 
> very few ones, for now. If anibody is interested I can post the code.
>
> Gabriel Maldonado
>
>
>   
>>   
>>     
>
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