HI All,

On the blue mailing list, there was mention that there are a couple of
pieces by Brian Wong that do not render in realtime.  I generated the
CSD to disk and rendered with csound from commandline and got the same
behavior.  (I placed a copy at http://www.kunstmusik.com/t.csd).

Here on OSX using latest from GIT, I have no problems rendering.  My
assumption was that the fix to transeg that happened after 5.16 fixed
up some bug that may cause this really slow rendering.  However, I am
not sure.

Does anyone have any idea if that could the cause?  If so, should we
consider a 5.16.2 release?

Thanks!
steven

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Hi Tito,

This is the first I've heard of this issue with blue; thanks for
mentioning it, I'll take a look.  Are you rendering with API on or
off?  (I assume off as it wouldn't be creating a separate process
otherwise...).  And this is on Linux you found this?  (assuming so
because you mentioned top).

Otherwise, perhaps transeg is not the issue, but something just on
Windows?  That was all I noticed from the pieces that stood out and
something I had remembered from the logs as changing since 5.16.1.

Perhaps it is time for 5.16.2?

steven



On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Tito Latini  wrote:
> I have fixed only `transegr' (not `transeg'), however there is a
> hidden bug in `blue'. The "stop" doesn't work well, and there are
> often a lot of started csound processes (monitor with `top' or other).
> Therefore, after some play/stop, the pieces doesn't work in RT
> and they are slow off-line because the CPU cries.
> I have tested Brian Wong in RT (exported csd files) with 5.14.2, 5.15
> and 5.16.1 without problems (also this bug is not a problem for you).
>
> In general, there are some serious bug fixed in csound after v5.16
>
> tito
>
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 05:05:35PM +0000, Steven Yi wrote:
>> HI All,
>>
>> On the blue mailing list, there was mention that there are a couple of
>> pieces by Brian Wong that do not render in realtime.  I generated the
>> CSD to disk and rendered with csound from commandline and got the same
>> behavior.  (I placed a copy at http://www.kunstmusik.com/t.csd).
>>
>> Here on OSX using latest from GIT, I have no problems rendering.  My
>> assumption was that the fix to transeg that happened after 5.16 fixed
>> up some bug that may cause this really slow rendering.  However, I am
>> not sure.
>>
>> Does anyone have any idea if that could the cause?  If so, should we
>> consider a 5.16.2 release?
>>
>> Thanks!
>> steven
>
>
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Hi Tito,

I tested just now in Ubuntu 11.10.  I had the API turned off, and I
did not see any zombie csound processes.  Are you running with
displays on by chance? (I tested with displays off).

An interesting thing happened though, performance quite bad with
constant buffer underruns.  I expected some considering I am running
this in VirtualBox on my Mac.  However, the interesting thing was that
when I switched to using -+rtaudio=alsa and used -odac:hw:0,0 I got
perfectly fine output.  I did switch to ksmps=64, but I did so for the
entire test.  Using -+rtaudio=pa_bl or -+rtaudio=pa_cb, even if I
chose the device that listed as hw:0,0 I got buffer underruns.  Same
buffer settings for each.

So, on Linux, I am not sure why I was getting this behavior with
PortAudio driver. To note, I was using the Csound that is included in
apt-get, which is only 5.13.

Sidenote: to run with the API, blue needs to be able to find the
lib_jcsound.so.  The one installed from apt-get installs to
/usr/lib/jni, so the blue/etc/blue.conf needs to be updated for that
(as mentioned here:
http://blue.kunstmusik.com/wiki/index.php/Installation#Linux).  That's
for Debian/Ubuntu at least, but the general modification is the same.
After that, the API is turned on and off for use from the program
options (Tool->Options) or from the Projects menu.

As for Common Lisp, if you want, you can write Lisp within an
"External" or "ObjectBuilder" soundObject if you want to use lisp to
generate scores but want to take advantage of the timeline in blue.

Otherwise, thanks!
steven

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Tito Latini  wrote:
> Lately I'm surfing with common lisp (however blue is fantastic),
> I don't know the option API on/off, I run and play it (I presume API off).
>
> yes to all the other questions (I hope to win).
> If I discover the change that has improved the pieces, I'll send you a SIGUSR1.
>
> tito
>
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 09:42:32PM +0000, Steven Yi wrote:
>> Hi Tito,
>>
>> This is the first I've heard of this issue with blue; thanks for
>> mentioning it, I'll take a look.  Are you rendering with API on or
>> off?  (I assume off as it wouldn't be creating a separate process
>> otherwise...).  And this is on Linux you found this?  (assuming so
>> because you mentioned top).
>>
>> Otherwise, perhaps transeg is not the issue, but something just on
>> Windows?  That was all I noticed from the pieces that stood out and
>> something I had remembered from the logs as changing since 5.16.1.
>>
>> Perhaps it is time for 5.16.2?
>>
>> steven
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Tito Latini  wrote:
>> > I have fixed only `transegr' (not `transeg'), however there is a
>> > hidden bug in `blue'. The "stop" doesn't work well, and there are
>> > often a lot of started csound processes (monitor with `top' or other).
>> > Therefore, after some play/stop, the pieces doesn't work in RT
>> > and they are slow off-line because the CPU cries.
>> > I have tested Brian Wong in RT (exported csd files) with 5.14.2, 5.15
>> > and 5.16.1 without problems (also this bug is not a problem for you).
>> >
>> > In general, there are some serious bug fixed in csound after v5.16
>> >
>> > tito
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 05:05:35PM +0000, Steven Yi wrote:
>> >> HI All,
>> >>
>> >> On the blue mailing list, there was mention that there are a couple of
>> >> pieces by Brian Wong that do not render in realtime.  I generated the
>> >> CSD to disk and rendered with csound from commandline and got the same
>> >> behavior.  (I placed a copy at http://www.kunstmusik.com/t.csd).
>> >>
>> >> Here on OSX using latest from GIT, I have no problems rendering.  My
>> >> assumption was that the fix to transeg that happened after 5.16 fixed
>> >> up some bug that may cause this really slow rendering.  However, I am
>> >> not sure.
>> >>
>> >> Does anyone have any idea if that could the cause?  If so, should we
>> >> consider a 5.16.2 release?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks!
>> >> steven
>> >
>> >
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Fair enough. :)

I have wanted to spend some more time with lisp (well, in my case, I
have had my eye on clojure, as it runs on the JVM and would be easily
portable then to embed within blue, which goes towards long-term
preservation of works and no installation of common lisp necessary).
That should actually be easy to add, so perhaps I'll do that over the
next day or two.

As for xmonad, I wonder if it's the version of Java.  I have OpenJDK
1.6.0_23 here.  EbmTranceboy from the blue list mentioned he was
having some problems with using blue with the API and I seem to
remember he was using 1.6.0_20.  Regardless, I'm installing xmonad now
to give it a try.  I've been debating installing a dual boot on my
MacBook Pro to boot into Linux as opposed OSX.  Sometimes I miss it.
:P

As for the breaking up of audio, I think I found something.  On
Windows I compiled latest from git with Cmake but that build didn't
seem to make much difference.  On the other hand, I did not have
portaudio built either, so had to use winmm, which isn't great.  I did
however went back to the 5.16 install.  I tried running it with pa_bl
and got no problems with audio (!!!).  Running with pa_cb however had
the same horrible results, and I believe pa_cb is the default when
-+rtaudio=pa or portaudio is used. If I do the same on Ubuntu, I get
the same results: horrible stuttering with pa_cb and no problems with
pa_bl.  On OSX, I have been using pa_bl by default, as I had other
problems with pa_cb relating to crashes.

So, at this point, I am thinking something perhaps changed with pa_cb?

steven

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:52 PM, Tito Latini  wrote:
> Tested with "displays off" and jack audio.
> I don't exclude that it is a problem with xmonad and/or java (jdk-6u20).
>
>> As for Common Lisp, if you want, you can write Lisp within an
>> "External" or "ObjectBuilder" soundObject if you want to use lisp to
>> generate scores but want to take advantage of the timeline in blue.
>
> I know `blue' (otherwise I would not have said "fantastic"),
> but emacs + slime + cl is my home. However I preserve a makefile with
>
>  blue -c $< -o $@
>
> It is a personal matter with the time, she steals me the years
> and I eliminate the timeline.
>
> tito
>
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I use pa cb all the time and have not seen any problems on OSX.
If there is a problem we need to fix, as pa blocking does not allow for low latency.

Victor

On 5 Mar 2012, at 23:52, Steven Yi  wrote:

> Fair enough. :)
> 
> I have wanted to spend some more time with lisp (well, in my case, I
> have had my eye on clojure, as it runs on the JVM and would be easily
> portable then to embed within blue, which goes towards long-term
> preservation of works and no installation of common lisp necessary).
> That should actually be easy to add, so perhaps I'll do that over the
> next day or two.
> 
> As for xmonad, I wonder if it's the version of Java.  I have OpenJDK
> 1.6.0_23 here.  EbmTranceboy from the blue list mentioned he was
> having some problems with using blue with the API and I seem to
> remember he was using 1.6.0_20.  Regardless, I'm installing xmonad now
> to give it a try.  I've been debating installing a dual boot on my
> MacBook Pro to boot into Linux as opposed OSX.  Sometimes I miss it.
> :P
> 
> As for the breaking up of audio, I think I found something.  On
> Windows I compiled latest from git with Cmake but that build didn't
> seem to make much difference.  On the other hand, I did not have
> portaudio built either, so had to use winmm, which isn't great.  I did
> however went back to the 5.16 install.  I tried running it with pa_bl
> and got no problems with audio (!!!).  Running with pa_cb however had
> the same horrible results, and I believe pa_cb is the default when
> -+rtaudio=pa or portaudio is used. If I do the same on Ubuntu, I get
> the same results: horrible stuttering with pa_cb and no problems with
> pa_bl.  On OSX, I have been using pa_bl by default, as I had other
> problems with pa_cb relating to crashes.
> 
> So, at this point, I am thinking something perhaps changed with pa_cb?
> 
> steven
> 
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:52 PM, Tito Latini  wrote:
>> Tested with "displays off" and jack audio.
>> I don't exclude that it is a problem with xmonad and/or java (jdk-6u20).
>> 
>>> As for Common Lisp, if you want, you can write Lisp within an
>>> "External" or "ObjectBuilder" soundObject if you want to use lisp to
>>> generate scores but want to take advantage of the timeline in blue.
>> 
>> I know `blue' (otherwise I would not have said "fantastic"),
>> but emacs + slime + cl is my home. However I preserve a makefile with
>> 
>>  blue -c $< -o $@
>> 
>> It is a personal matter with the time, she steals me the years
>> and I eliminate the timeline.
>> 
>> tito
>> 
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Also on Windows, you have to make sure pa is not using MME or directx as you get dropouts with these on small buffers.
Tito: have you noticed any problems in your linux system using the pa_cb IO?

Victor
On 6 Mar 2012, at 08:43, Tito Latini wrote:

> 
> Mystery. I don't use ubuntu and I don't know if the last pa deb
> package includes

Dr Victor Lazzarini
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Dept. of Music
NUI Maynooth Ireland
tel.: +353 1 708 3545
Victor dot Lazzarini AT nuim dot ie




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Thanks; I would try to fix the pa bug if I could reproduce it. But it works here.

Victor
On 6 Mar 2012, at 09:54, Tito Latini wrote:

>> Tito: have you noticed any problems in your linux system using the pa_cb IO?
> 
> I usually use directly jack. Today I want to resolve the memory problem
> with the --midi-* option because my previous fix is incomplete.
> I will surely make then some tests with pa_cb
> 
> tito
> 
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NUI Maynooth Ireland
tel.: +353 1 708 3545
Victor dot Lazzarini AT nuim dot ie




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Looks like portaudio in ubuntu is from 20110326.  I don't know though
from the changes listed on that page if anything there is related to
what I'm experiencing though?  Also, I don't know what version is
being used by Michael on Windows? Also, the version on OSX I have been
using looks like it was from 2011-08-04.  (Then again, it could be
that it was never an issue on OSX, but a bug on other platforms?  Hard
to tell)

As for clojure, building a soundObject is fairly straightforward.  For
extending blue itself, there are two possibilities. One is to use the
normal Netbeans Module system, which is possible and there is a
precedent in that people are building Netbeans modules with Clojure.
This would mean allowing same level of access to UI and data classes
as one does from Java (full access).  The other is to create a script
interpreter.  I had done this in pre-2.0.0 blue using the embedded
python interpreter.  An instance of python interpreter was passed
certain data structures, which then could be manipulated. It allowed
scripts to be added at runtime and managed within blue.  That feature
became more complicated after moving to Netbeans Rich Client Platform
and complications with classloaders.  Probably the "right" way is to
promote extension via module system.  So, it is possible. :)

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Tito Latini  wrote:
>> I have wanted to spend some more time with lisp (well, in my case, I
>> have had my eye on clojure, as it runs on the JVM and would be easily
>> portable then to embed within blue, which goes towards long-term
>> preservation of works and no installation of common lisp necessary).
>> That should actually be easy to add, so perhaps I'll do that over the
>> next day or two.
>
> I don't know if you want to add `clojure' like a blue object or to
> control `blue'. Both are good, but the second rocks (IMHO). I adore
> the `snd' editor (Bill Schottstaedt and others) because I can easily
> control it from emacs and/or terminal and conceptually it is similar
> to emacs. I have never used clojure, but it is a good reason to do it.
>
>> As for xmonad, I wonder if it's the version of Java.  I have OpenJDK
>> 1.6.0_23 here.  EbmTranceboy from the blue list mentioned he was
>> having some problems with using blue with the API and I seem to
>> remember he was using 1.6.0_20.  Regardless, I'm installing xmonad now
>> to give it a try.  I've been debating installing a dual boot on my
>> MacBook Pro to boot into Linux as opposed OSX.  Sometimes I miss it.
>> :P
>
> I appreciate a lot the passion that you employ in your ideas and projects.
>
>> As for the breaking up of audio, I think I found something.  On
>> Windows I compiled latest from git with Cmake but that build didn't
>> seem to make much difference.  On the other hand, I did not have
>> portaudio built either, so had to use winmm, which isn't great.  I did
>> however went back to the 5.16 install.  I tried running it with pa_bl
>> and got no problems with audio (!!!).  Running with pa_cb however had
>> the same horrible results, and I believe pa_cb is the default when
>> -+rtaudio=pa or portaudio is used. If I do the same on Ubuntu, I get
>> the same results: horrible stuttering with pa_cb and no problems with
>> pa_bl.  On OSX, I have been using pa_bl by default, as I had other
>> problems with pa_cb relating to crashes.
>>
>> So, at this point, I am thinking something perhaps changed with pa_cb?
>
> Mystery. I don't use ubuntu and I don't know if the last pa deb
> package includes
>
>  http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/portaudio/ReleaseNotes
>
> where I see some bug fixed.
>
> tito
>
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Actually, the module system in Netbeans, like OSGi, keeps things very
encapsulated, and protects against things propagating.  I find both of
these module systems quite interesting, and extremely beneficial for
larger projects.

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Tito Latini  wrote:
>> promote extension via module system.  So, it is possible. :)
>
> then I foresee a butterfly effect
>
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Hahhaha, I was imagining the butterfly flapped its wings, and
hurricanes blew everywhere in the blue codebase with clojure and java
mixed everywhere. :P  Now when I see your emails, whenever I see () I
will imagine (def tito (fn [oh my!] doing something (crazy-with
clojure code))). :)

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 7:59 PM, Tito Latini  wrote:
> I meant "batterfly effect of ideas",
> (I have forgotten the marge-smile ########:-)
>
> On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 07:32:55PM +0000, Steven Yi wrote:
>> Actually, the module system in Netbeans, like OSGi, keeps things very
>> encapsulated, and protects against things propagating.  I find both of
>> these module systems quite interesting, and extremely beneficial for
>> larger projects.
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Tito Latini  wrote:
>> >> promote extension via module system.  So, it is possible. :)
>> >
>> > then I foresee a butterfly effect
>> >
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What's --sched=68 for?

On 3/7/12, Tito Latini  wrote:
>> Tito: have you noticed any problems in your linux system using the pa_cb
>> IO?
>
> Tested with portaudio v20110326 and v20111121
>
> Linux 2.6.33.7.2-rt30 #6 SMP PREEMPT RT x86_64 AMD Phenom(tm) II X6 1090T
>
> -odac -m0 -d --sched=68 -+rtaudio=pa_cb -b64
> sr    = 96000
> ksmps = 1
>
> ...
> rtaudio: PortAudio module enabled ... using callback interface
> ...
> audio buffered in 64 sample-frame blocks
> ...
>
> It is fine when the cpu can breathe. I have voluntarily caused xruns
> and noticed the same average between -+rtaudio=pa_cb and -+rtaudio=jack
>
> tito
>
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Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning
Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing 
also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service.
http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/
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