I still want to move forward on this.

First there seem to be two fundamentally opposed ideas; either to
create a minimal binary distribution with additional distribution for
frontends, inter-working etc, or a single distribution that has it
all.

I am primarily concerned with distribution to end users who have no
time, no tools, no skill or no interest in building from source.
These users may not have root access either.

At present my model for distribution is in 4 main sections
bin        Binary programs
opc        Opcode etc plugins
doc        Manual
lib        Additional optional libraries

QUESTION: IS THERE ANOTHER SECTION NEEDED?

In bin at present i have:
   brkpt          cs            csb64enc        cscore
   csound         cstclsh       cswish          cvanal
   dnoise         envext        extract         extractor
   het_export     het_import    hetro           linseg
   lpanal         lpc_export    lpc_import      makecsd
   mixer          pvanal        pvlook          scale
   scot           scsort        sdif2ad         srconv
   tabdes

QUESTION: SHOULD ANY OF THESE NOT BE DISTRIBUTED?

QUESTION: WHAT OTHER BASIC BINARIES ARE THERE?

In the opc I expect all the lib.so/dynlib plugins we compile.
Personally I am disappointed to see the collection of a number of
them into a larger library, as it conflicts with my view of small lean
tuned performance systems, but I can live with the majority view

QUESTION: ARE THERE ANY PLUGINS WE SHOULD NOT DISTRIBUTE?

The documentation I am assuming is the HTML version of the manual,
which is looking almost complete now.  

QUESTION: SHOULD WE DISTRIBUTE PDF PS OR DOC MANUALS?

My largest uncertainty is regarding the libraries.  We should not
overwrite existing installed libraries, but checking this is a pain.
At present I am rather hand writing this area, but there is a
possibility for a more table-driven installation here.

QUESTION: ANYONE GOT A CLEAR MODEL FOR LIBRARIES?

The last topic is dealing with the OPCODEDIR environment.  We could
tell the user to set the environment correctly, but experience on the
Csound list is this is not easy.  I favour wrapping the installed
binaries with a script to set environments, possibly in two bin
directories -- eg wrapped in /usr/local/bin and unwrapped in
/usr/local/bib/CS5.

QUESTION: SHOULD WE USE ALL WRAPPERS?

QUESTION: WHICH ENVIRONMENT VARIABLES SHOULD WE DEFINE IN THE
WRAPPED?

That will do for now.  Some of the developers will be seeing each
other at the Electric Sounds '05 meeting this weekend, and I hope we
can find time to forward this area.  So now is a timely moment to add
input.

==John ffitch


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At 11:01 01/12/2005, you wrote:
>I still want to move forward on this.
>
>First there seem to be two fundamentally opposed ideas; either to
>create a minimal binary distribution with additional distribution for
>frontends, inter-working etc, or a single distribution that has it
>all.
>
>I am primarily concerned with distribution to end users who have no
>time, no tools, no skill or no interest in building from source.
>These users may not have root access either.
>
>At present my model for distribution is in 4 main sections
>bin        Binary programs
>opc        Opcode etc plugins
>doc        Manual
>lib        Additional optional libraries

where would libcsound go? wherever it goes it should also
include tclcsound.dylib/dll/so, _csnd.so/dll and lib_csnd.jnilib
(see below).

>QUESTION: IS THERE ANOTHER SECTION NEEDED?
>
>In bin at present i have:
>    brkpt          cs            csb64enc        cscore
>    csound         cstclsh       cswish          cvanal
>    dnoise         envext        extract         extractor
>    het_export     het_import    hetro           linseg
>    lpanal         lpc_export    lpc_import      makecsd
>    mixer          pvanal        pvlook          scale
>    scot           scsort        sdif2ad         srconv
>    tabdes
>
>QUESTION: SHOULD ANY OF THESE NOT BE DISTRIBUTED?

Are they all working? lpanal needs to be looked at.


>QUESTION: WHAT OTHER BASIC BINARIES ARE THERE?
>
>In the opc I expect all the lib.so/dynlib plugins we compile.
>Personally I am disappointed to see the collection of a number of
>them into a larger library, as it conflicts with my view of small lean
>tuned performance systems, but I can live with the majority view

We really have not discussed this; the plugins were aglutinated without
any discussion that I can remember. I'm also with the opinion that we
should have them into separate libraries; perhaps something in between
of what was then and is now.

>QUESTION: ARE THERE ANY PLUGINS WE SHOULD NOT DISTRIBUTE?

Not that I can think of.


>The documentation I am assuming is the HTML version of the manual,
>which is looking almost complete now.
>
>QUESTION: SHOULD WE DISTRIBUTE PDF PS OR DOC MANUALS?

I would suggest PDF.

>My largest uncertainty is regarding the libraries.  We should not
>overwrite existing installed libraries, but checking this is a pain.
>At present I am rather hand writing this area, but there is a
>possibility for a more table-driven installation here.
>
>QUESTION: ANYONE GOT A CLEAR MODEL FOR LIBRARIES?

Can we have version-based dynamic libs, with libcsound.so/etc as
a symbolic link? Overwriting of static libs.

>The last topic is dealing with the OPCODEDIR environment.  We could
>tell the user to set the environment correctly, but experience on the
>Csound list is this is not easy.  I favour wrapping the installed
>binaries with a script to set environments, possibly in two bin
>directories -- eg wrapped in /usr/local/bin and unwrapped in
>/usr/local/bib/CS5.

what do you mean by wrapped/unwrapped?

>QUESTION: SHOULD WE USE ALL WRAPPERS?

We should have C++, Java and Python.

>QUESTION: WHICH ENVIRONMENT VARIABLES SHOULD WE DEFINE IN THE
>WRAPPED?

OPCODEDIR/64 only perhaps?


>That will do for now.  Some of the developers will be seeing each
>other at the Electric Sounds '05 meeting this weekend, and I hope we
>can find time to forward this area.  So now is a timely moment to add
>input.
>
>==John ffitch
>
>
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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I didn't. I was referring to your idea.

At 14:08 01/12/2005, you wrote:
>While it seems to be ignored by most people, I already solved
>that on Linux. The dynamic Csound library has a name in the
>format

Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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Has anyone done anything about the C API (host/module) documentation?

At 14:15 01/12/2005, you wrote:
>On Thursday 01 December 2005 12:01, jpff@codemist.co.uk wrote:
>
> > The documentation I am assuming is the HTML version of the manual,
> > which is looking almost complete now.
>
>What is missing ?
>
>
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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lib_csnd.jnilib on OSX, _csnd.dll on Windows and
I'm not sure on OSX.

OSX:
lib_cnsd.jnilib is a symbolic link to _csnd.so (or lib_csnd.so)
and should eventually go into

/System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.Framework/Libraries/

Windows:

I think _csnd.dll should go into WINNT/System32

Linux: ?

At 14:08 01/12/2005, you wrote:
>I do not use or care
>about Java, though, so no ideas on that.

Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 



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> At present my model for distribution is in 4 main sections
> bin        Binary programs
> opc        Opcode etc plugins
> doc        Manual
> lib        Additional optional libraries
> 
> QUESTION: IS THERE ANOTHER SECTION NEEDED?
> 
> In bin at present i have:
>    brkpt          cs            csb64enc        cscore
>    csound         cstclsh       cswish          cvanal
>    dnoise         envext        extract         extractor
>    het_export     het_import    hetro           linseg
>    lpanal         lpc_export    lpc_import      makecsd
>    mixer          pvanal        pvlook          scale
>    scot           scsort        sdif2ad         srconv
>    tabdes

Probably you have it already included, not sure, but I certainly think 
Istvan's rtaudio and native midi drivers should be included.

> The documentation I am assuming is the HTML version of the manual,
> which is looking almost complete now.  
> 
> QUESTION: SHOULD WE DISTRIBUTE PDF PS OR DOC MANUALS?

I prefer non-PDF personally. I am constantly having problems with pdfs 
on gnome, and really like being able to easily cut plain text from the 
manuals.

> The last topic is dealing with the OPCODEDIR environment.  We could
> tell the user to set the environment correctly, but experience on the
> Csound list is this is not easy.  I favour wrapping the installed
> binaries with a script to set environments, possibly in two bin
> directories -- eg wrapped in /usr/local/bin and unwrapped in
> /usr/local/bib/CS5.
> 
> QUESTION: SHOULD WE USE ALL WRAPPERS?
> 
> QUESTION: WHICH ENVIRONMENT VARIABLES SHOULD WE DEFINE IN THE
> WRAPPED?

I agree, it should be possible for new users to run *something* without 
setting an environment variable. I remember five years ago or so, I had 
to ask on here how to do so on windows 'cause I had problems finding it 
in the windows help files and getting it to work. I'm sure others will 
be in the same boat.

My 2 cents ( Canadian )
Iain


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Steven Yi wrote:
> Sorry, don't have time to reply to the whole thread, but will mention
> that blue and I believe MacCsound depend on the HTML version to lookup
> opcode documentation.  I also generally prefer it over PDF.  It's also
> the lowest common denominator of all the formats.

my own software also depens on HTML for dynamic documentation. we 
definitely need something easily parsable

Stef


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Victor said:
> Are they all working? lpanal needs to be looked at.

It seems to be working to me -- apart from the byte-order effects.
In fact on this machine it works better that csound4 (which just
crashes)

==John ffitch


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> >The documentation I am assuming is the HTML version of the manual,
> >which is looking almost complete now.
> >
> >QUESTION: SHOULD WE DISTRIBUTE PDF PS OR DOC MANUALS?
> 
> I would suggest PDF.

I have a small problem with PDF;  when I try to build a PDF manual I
get the message

Making portrait pages on USletter paper (8.5inx11in)

But why is it not made in international standard size like A4?  How do
we make an A4 manual?

I also have a minor problem with fop.sh missing as well

==John ffitch


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I too tried making a pdfa4 target, and that seemed to fix the paper size.  
I still do not have a fop.sh anywhere;I tried running fop directly and was 
inundated in error messages, ending with 
Exception in thread "main" java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space

Perhaps I should wait, but where do I find fop.sh?

==John 




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Yes I have fop and no fop.sh that i could see.
Installed from rpm on SuSE9.3
/usr/bin/fop is a shell script to call fop.sh in /usr/share/fop with
environment variables (I have just looked).

fop is 0.20.5

Perhaps I need top back off this until it works.

I am sort of convinced that an HTML library is the answer.

==John ffitch


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