Csound Csound-dev Csound-tekno Search About

Re: Mailing list archives: an idea

Date1998-10-21 06:27
FromPaul Winkler
SubjectRe: Mailing list archives: an idea
Simon Kunath wrote:
> 
> Paul Winkler wrote:
> >I would like to propose adding an archive of this list to
> >http://www.egroups.com/

> Please don't do this, I have just had a brush with egoups & anyone who
> can't spot blatant data-mining is missing it.
> Yuk!

OK, so far we have one response in favor of egroups and two against.
That's not much of a vote, but the concerns are real and I'm in favor of
not exposing people to needless spam. So I will not do anything to
create a csound egroups archive.

BUT... Simon, you seem to have missed the part of this thread where I
discovered that someone else has already created an egroups csound-list
archive. It's at www.egroups.com/list/csound/ ... only you can't get
into it without some mysterious password you obtain from some mysterious
source.

Once again, I ask of everyone:
Who is responsible for this archive?

The only info I've been able to glean from the egroups CSound archive is
this:
"Questions? The group moderator can be contacted at
csound-owner@eGroups.com"

I have sent a couple of questions to this address and have not received
any reply. Hello? Anybody home?

I'm also writing to the egroups staff to see if they can or will answer
any questions... I'll post anything relevant I find out to this list.

At this point, I agree that egroups may be a risk. So one question is,
how do we get rid of the existing csound archive at egroups.com? SOMEONE
must have put it there, and presumably only that person has the
authority to close it down.

Another question is, where CAN we put a web-based csound archive? Does
anyone have 10 or so free MB of space? (Yes, there's been a lot of
messages on the csound list in the past!)
At one point, both John Fitch and, if I remember right, Alex Burton had
offered ftp space for a downloadable HTML archive, but I don't recall if
web space was available for an online browsable archive...

If such space exists, I repeat my offer to convert the existing plain
text archives to HTML and create indexes. I have the software to do this
and it's not hard. I don't know any way to automatically update the
archive, but we can deal with that later, I guess.

Regards,

PW

Date1998-10-21 11:36
FromJames Andrews
SubjectRe: Mailing list archives: an idea
Paul Winkler wrote
>
>Simon Kunath wrote:
>> 
>> Paul Winkler wrote:
>> >I would like to propose adding an archive of this list to
>> >http://www.egroups.com/
>
>> Please don't do this, I have just had a brush with egoups & anyone who
>> can't spot blatant data-mining is missing it.
>> Yuk!
>
>OK, so far we have one response in favor of egroups and two against.
>That's not much of a vote, but the concerns are real and I'm in favor of
>not exposing people to needless spam. So I will not do anything to
>create a csound egroups archive.
>
>BUT... Simon, you seem to have missed the part of this thread where I
>discovered that someone else has already created an egroups csound-list
>archive. It's at www.egroups.com/list/csound/ ... only you can't get
>into it without some mysterious password you obtain from some mysterious
>source.
>
>Once again, I ask of everyone:
>Who is responsible for this archive?

Comment from your friendly list administrator here ( james@maths.ex.ac.uk )

they have just subscribed to csound

listsaver-of-csound--maths.ex.ac.uk@egroups.com

and are getting the messages as they arrive and archiving them

>Another question is, where CAN we put a web-based csound archive? Does
>anyone have 10 or so free MB of space? (Yes, there's been a lot of
>messages on the csound list in the past!)
>At one point, both John Fitch and, if I remember right, Alex Burton had
>offered ftp space for a downloadable HTML archive, but I don't recall if
>web space was available for an online browsable archive...

Disk space is not a problem.  The software is.

If anyone can recommend a email -> hypertext gateway program that will work
in a fairly painless way then I WILL install it.  Please do not recommend
hypermail as I have tried repeatedly to make it work and something doesnt
suit it
I have procmail and perl installed and available, the email machine is an
SGI

-- 
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~james/tekno
Watch out for "Variations" LP on Science City (SCi 11)
Most Intelligent Customers Realize Our Software is Only for Fools and Teenagers

Date1998-10-21 13:59
FromRichard Boulanger
SubjectRe: Mailing list archives: an idea
Paul,

I am very happy that you have offered to convert the Csound email into a
browsable html archive.  The Csound community really needs this type of
resource.  (In fact, I thought there was such an archive at one time?)

Currently, I am re-doing the Csound Front Page to replace the "out-of-date"
and miss-informed pages at both Leeds and Dartmouth.  Both will be
acknowledged and sited for thier contributions.  But hopefully, both will
be retired shortly thereafter. They were both excellent, in their time, but
have not kept up with all the changes in the language.  (Martin Dupras has
offered to pull his page the minute we say so and the Leeds people were
asked formally at ICMC to do the same given the fact that their document is
discouraging more potential csounders rather than assisting them.)

The "New Csound Page/Faq" will be hosted by the MIT Press.  It will be up
within the next two weeks and it will be a living document which I will
continue to maintain, revise and update.

Paul, The MIT Press may in fact be interested in hosting your html version
of the archive as well.  I will work on that.  For now, I would propose
that the archive reside at John ffitch's site and be mirrored at Piche's
site.

So happy you have offered to do this work.  Looking forward to this
wonderful resource in the near future.

Yours Sincerely,

Richard Boulanger

>Simon Kunath wrote:
>>
>> Paul Winkler wrote:
>> >I would like to propose adding an archive of this list to
>> >http://www.egroups.com/
>
>> Please don't do this, I have just had a brush with egoups & anyone who
>> can't spot blatant data-mining is missing it.
>> Yuk!
>
>OK, so far we have one response in favor of egroups and two against.
>That's not much of a vote, but the concerns are real and I'm in favor of
>not exposing people to needless spam. So I will not do anything to
>create a csound egroups archive.
>
>BUT... Simon, you seem to have missed the part of this thread where I
>discovered that someone else has already created an egroups csound-list
>archive. It's at www.egroups.com/list/csound/ ... only you can't get
>into it without some mysterious password you obtain from some mysterious
>source.
>
>Once again, I ask of everyone:
>Who is responsible for this archive?
>
>The only info I've been able to glean from the egroups CSound archive is
>this:
>"Questions? The group moderator can be contacted at
>csound-owner@eGroups.com"
>
>I have sent a couple of questions to this address and have not received
>any reply. Hello? Anybody home?
>
>I'm also writing to the egroups staff to see if they can or will answer
>any questions... I'll post anything relevant I find out to this list.
>
>At this point, I agree that egroups may be a risk. So one question is,
>how do we get rid of the existing csound archive at egroups.com? SOMEONE
>must have put it there, and presumably only that person has the
>authority to close it down.
>
>Another question is, where CAN we put a web-based csound archive? Does
>anyone have 10 or so free MB of space? (Yes, there's been a lot of
>messages on the csound list in the past!)
>At one point, both John Fitch and, if I remember right, Alex Burton had
>offered ftp space for a downloadable HTML archive, but I don't recall if
>web space was available for an online browsable archive...
>
>If such space exists, I repeat my offer to convert the existing plain
>text archives to HTML and create indexes. I have the software to do this
>and it's not hard. I don't know any way to automatically update the
>archive, but we can deal with that later, I guess.
>
>Regards,
>
>PW


===============================================================
Dr. Richard Boulanger
Professor - Music Synthesis Department
Berklee College of Music
1140 Boylston Street  - Boston, MA  02215-3693
Phone: (617) 747-2485   Fax: (617) 536-2257
===============================================================
rcb@media.mit.edu * rboulanger@berklee.edu* http://www.tiac.net/users/rcb
===============================================================




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From: Richard Boulanger 
Subject: Re: Mailing list archives: an idea
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Paul,

I am very happy that you have offered to convert the Csound email into a
browsable html archive.  The Csound community really needs this type of
resource.  (In fact, I thought there was such an archive at one time?)

Currently, I am re-doing the Csound Front Page to replace the "out-of-date"
and miss-informed pages at both Leeds and Dartmouth.  Both will be
acknowledged and sited for thier contributions.  But hopefully, both will
be retired shortly thereafter. They were both excellent, in their time, but
have not kept up with all the changes in the language.  (Martin Dupras has
offered to pull his page the minute we say so and the Leeds people were
asked formally at ICMC to do the same given the fact that their document is
discouraging more potential csounders rather than assisting them.)

The "New Csound Page/Faq" will be hosted by the MIT Press.  It will be up
within the next two weeks and it will be a living document which I will
continue to maintain, revise and update.

Paul, The MIT Press may in fact be interested in hosting your html version
of the archive as well.  I will work on that.  For now, I would propose
that the archive reside at John ffitch's site and be mirrored at Piche's
site.

So happy you have offered to do this work.  Looking forward to this
wonderful resource in the near future.

Yours Sincerely,

Richard Boulanger

>Simon Kunath wrote:
>>
>> Paul Winkler wrote:
>> >I would like to propose adding an archive of this list to
>> >http://www.egroups.com/
>
>> Please don't do this, I have just had a brush with egoups & anyone who
>> can't spot blatant data-mining is missing it.
>> Yuk!
>
>OK, so far we have one response in favor of egroups and two against.
>That's not much of a vote, but the concerns are real and I'm in favor of
>not exposing people to needless spam. So I will not do anything to
>create a csound egroups archive.
>
>BUT... Simon, you seem to have missed the part of this thread where I
>discovered that someone else has already created an egroups csound-list
>archive. It's at www.egroups.com/list/csound/ ... only you can't get
>into it without some mysterious password you obtain from some mysterious
>source.
>
>Once again, I ask of everyone:
>Who is responsible for this archive?
>
>The only info I've been able to glean from the egroups CSound archive is
>this:
>"Questions? The group moderator can be contacted at
>csound-owner@eGroups.com"
>
>I have sent a couple of questions to this address and have not received
>any reply. Hello? Anybody home?
>
>I'm also writing to the egroups staff to see if they can or will answer
>any questions... I'll post anything relevant I find out to this list.
>
>At this point, I agree that egroups may be a risk. So one question is,
>how do we get rid of the existing csound archive at egroups.com? SOMEONE
>must have put it there, and presumably only that person has the
>authority to close it down.
>
>Another question is, where CAN we put a web-based csound archive? Does
>anyone have 10 or so free MB of space? (Yes, there's been a lot of
>messages on the csound list in the past!)
>At one point, both John Fitch and, if I remember right, Alex Burton had
>offered ftp space for a downloadable HTML archive, but I don't recall if
>web space was available for an online browsable archive...
>
>If such space exists, I repeat my offer to convert the existing plain
>text archives to HTML and create indexes. I have the software to do this
>and it's not hard. I don't know any way to automatically update the
>archive, but we can deal with that later, I guess.
>
>Regards,
>
>PW


===============================================================
Dr. Richard Boulanger
Professor - Music Synthesis Department
Berklee College of Music
1140 Boylston Street  - Boston, MA  02215-3693
Phone: (617) 747-2485   Fax: (617) 536-2257
===============================================================
rcb@media.mit.edu * rboulanger@berklee.edu* http://www.tiac.net/users/rcb
===============================================================




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From: Robin Whittle 
Organization: First Principles
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:11:40 +1000
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References: <362D70B7.246A@erols.com> from "Paul Winkler" at Oct 21, 98 01:27:19 am
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Regarding archiving software:

I have just set up a mailing list using Majordomo on 
my home machine here, and using MHonArc to archive it 
to a directory of that machine as HTML.  MHonArc is a beauty!

   http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/mhonarc.html

My machine is a 486-100 running RedHat 5.1 Linux.  
The archive is password protected, so I can't show you 
mine, but take a look at the MhonArc site for some examples.

MhonArc can work in two ways at least.  One is you feed it a 
Unix mailbox of emails, and give it a target directory, and 
bingo you have a beatiful HTML web archive.

Secondly you can run it just like you run MajorDomo within a 
MajorDomo wrapper from the sendmail /etc/aliases file.  This 
feeds the email to it and it updates its database and adds 
it to the archive.

Here is a generalised example of using MajorDomo and Mhonarc.  
Run new aliases after changeing the /etc/aliases file!


xxxx:           "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper resend -l xxxx xxxx-outgoing"
xxxx-outgoing:  :include:/var/lib/majordomo/lists/xxxx, xxxx-mhonarc
xxxx-request:   root
owner-xxxx:     root
xxxx-owner:     root

xxxx-mhonarc:   "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper mhonarc -add -quiet -outdir /home/httpd/html/yyyyyyy 
                          -rcfile mhonarc-my-resources " 




The default is to display emails as courier, which is 
excellent.

MIME attachments are decoded and made available as 
clickable links!

With carful filtering (procmail?) the archiving could 
be done in this way on a machine which is not the mail 
server of the list. 

If it was desired to put the archive on a separate machine 
from where MHonArc runs, then it would be necessary to use 
some kind of FTP program on the local machine, regularly or 
each time MHonArc runs, to see which files have changed and 
to FTP them to a remote machine.

See the following links for using Glimpse search engine and 
the Wilma interface to it - I haven't done this, and Damien 
Miller says that Glimpse may not be the best approach. 

  http://glimpse.cs.arizona.edu/

  http://www.hpc.uh.edu/majordomo/#wilma

 
- Robin



===============================================================

Robin Whittle     rw@firstpr.com.au  http://www.firstpr.com.au
                  Heidelberg Heights, Melbourne, Australia 

First Principles  Research and expression: music, Internet 
                  music marketing, telecommunications, human 
                  factors in technology adoption. Consumer 
                  advocacy in telecommunications, especially 
                  privacy. Consulting and technical writing. 

Real World        Electronics and software for music: eg.
Interfaces        the Devil Fish mods for the TB-303. 

===============================================================


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i came across eric lyon's
"random csound synthesizer design"

with a press of a button instant orc/sco

fairly cool.

http://eric.iamas.ac.jp/~eric/CSYNTH/index.shtml


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Re. the egroups archive:

James Andrews wrote:
> 
> Paul Winkler wrote:
> >Once again, I ask of everyone:
> >Who is responsible for this archive?
> 
> Comment from your friendly list administrator here ( james@maths.ex.ac.uk )
> 
> they have just subscribed to csound
> 
> listsaver-of-csound--maths.ex.ac.uk@egroups.com
> 
> and are getting the messages as they arrive and archiving them

Yes, but they have two years' worth of messages up there! (At least I
think they do; I haven't been able to get past the main index.) So
either somebody quietly started a csound egroup way back then, or went
to the trouble to grab jpff's unix-mailbox text archives and added them
to the egroups archive.

I'm finding it rather odd (not to mention increasingly suspicious) that
no one has come forward to claim responsibility for this. I'm waiting to
see if the egroups staff has anything to say...

While I'm on the topic, is there anyone on this mailing list who
_actively_uses_ egroups to read/search this mailing list?

Regards,

PW



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Hi all,
I recently saw the promotional prospectus of a low-cost PC sound card
(called MaxiSound or so) and I was *really* disapointed with its specs.
compared to Csound. Specifically, it is said to use a 3rd order
polynomial scheme for wavetable interpolation, when Csound only accepts
linear (1st order) interpolation.
As you may agree this cannot be accepted ;-), I=B4d suggest at least 3 ne=
w

opcodes, called maybe
oscilp
tablep
deltapp
with an additional parameter to choose the polynomial degree used for
interpolated readout.
I=B4m not very sure about the improvement in the s/n ratio and in the
frequency response in relation to the degree of the Lagrange
interpolator. Maybe some of you have any clues. But it would be nice to
implement such feature.


Another question related to waveguide opcodes. Does deltapi (and delayw
btw) accept fractional sample delay lengths (well, fractional 1/kr
units) ? If not, is it expected to implement it soon? Otherwise it could

be difficult to tune a delay line at a precise high frequency, esp. at
low k-rates.
This is specially noticeable when developing waveguide models.






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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:49:54 -0600
From: Mike Berry 
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Interpolation schemes
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	I think that having higher order interpolation opcodes may not really
be necessary in csound.  Here are several reasons:

1.) You can do it if you need it in an orc using phasor and table.  Just
take the two adjacent values and interpolate any way you want between them.
2.) It doesn't make much difference if you use large tables.  Most of us
have lots of RAM and can make our tables as large as we like.  The
interpolation error for a 200 Hz. sine wave using a 16k table is very
very small, and unlikely to be improved by a higher order interpolation.
 The sound card probably has memory restrictions, so they use small,
down-sampled tables and try to make up for it with a higher order
interpolation.  So what you are really seeing in their spec is their
low-cost solution, not a leg up on csound.
-- 
Mike Berry
mikeb@nmol.com
http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb




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Subject: Re: realtime on MacOS8
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> 	yea- we havent tested it much, but it appears that audio in is
fucked up
> on the newer versions at least for OS8-- but you may want to give it
> a try and let me know how it works...


Actually, the 3.485 I tried in OS8.  It hungs. However, v. 3.484 hangs
if I give it a large buffer.  For what I was doing, I didn't care much
about the latency, but I had some complex orcs and I wanted to get a
clean sound.  It hungs the perf (I had to "force quit") if I go over
... hmm, here I forget the fugure...  1028, maybe.

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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:00:45 +0200
From: Gabriel Maldonado 
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Josep M Comajuncosas wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
> I recently saw the promotional prospectus of a low-cost PC sound card
> (called MaxiSound or so) and I was *really* disapointed with its specs.
> compared to Csound. Specifically, it is said to use a 3rd order
> polynomial scheme for wavetable interpolation, when Csound only accepts
> linear (1st order) interpolation.
> As you may agree this cannot be accepted ;-), I=B4d suggest at least 3 =
new
>=20
> opcodes, called maybe
> oscilp
> tablep
> deltapp
> with an additional parameter to choose the polynomial degree used for
> interpolated readout.
> I=B4m not very sure about the improvement in the s/n ratio and in the
> frequency response in relation to the degree of the Lagrange
> interpolator. Maybe some of you have any clues. But it would be nice to
> implement such feature.

The problem is: does it improve the sound quality? How much does it cost =
in processing
speed?
My new SoundBlaster Live has an internal wavetable synthesizer who does 8=
 point
interpolation in realtime. Actually the sound quality is excellent. I don=
't know if it
depends of the interpolation algorithm or of the hardware analog converte=
r.

Where is it possble to get the algorithm to implement 8 point interpolati=
on? If I could
see an example of it I will implement it in Csound.


=20
> Another question related to waveguide opcodes. Does deltapi (and delayw
> btw) accept fractional sample delay lengths (well, fractional 1/kr
> units) ?=20

Yes it does.


> If not, is it expected to implement it soon? Otherwise it could
> be difficult to tune a delay line at a precise high frequency, esp. at
> low k-rates.
> This is specially noticeable when developing waveguide models.

The problem is that the first order filters that are implemented in the w=
aveguide opcodes
don't use fractional delay, so the pitch of high notes is not precise.


--=20
Gabriel Maldonado

http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm

Date1998-10-21 14:11
FromRobin Whittle
SubjectWeb archiving of email
Regarding archiving software:

I have just set up a mailing list using Majordomo on 
my home machine here, and using MHonArc to archive it 
to a directory of that machine as HTML.  MHonArc is a beauty!

   http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/mhonarc.html

My machine is a 486-100 running RedHat 5.1 Linux.  
The archive is password protected, so I can't show you 
mine, but take a look at the MhonArc site for some examples.

MhonArc can work in two ways at least.  One is you feed it a 
Unix mailbox of emails, and give it a target directory, and 
bingo you have a beatiful HTML web archive.

Secondly you can run it just like you run MajorDomo within a 
MajorDomo wrapper from the sendmail /etc/aliases file.  This 
feeds the email to it and it updates its database and adds 
it to the archive.

Here is a generalised example of using MajorDomo and Mhonarc.  
Run new aliases after changeing the /etc/aliases file!


xxxx:           "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper resend -l xxxx xxxx-outgoing"
xxxx-outgoing:  :include:/var/lib/majordomo/lists/xxxx, xxxx-mhonarc
xxxx-request:   root
owner-xxxx:     root
xxxx-owner:     root

xxxx-mhonarc:   "|/usr/lib/majordomo/wrapper mhonarc -add -quiet -outdir /home/httpd/html/yyyyyyy 
                          -rcfile mhonarc-my-resources " 




The default is to display emails as courier, which is 
excellent.

MIME attachments are decoded and made available as 
clickable links!

With carful filtering (procmail?) the archiving could 
be done in this way on a machine which is not the mail 
server of the list. 

If it was desired to put the archive on a separate machine 
from where MHonArc runs, then it would be necessary to use 
some kind of FTP program on the local machine, regularly or 
each time MHonArc runs, to see which files have changed and 
to FTP them to a remote machine.

See the following links for using Glimpse search engine and 
the Wilma interface to it - I haven't done this, and Damien 
Miller says that Glimpse may not be the best approach. 

  http://glimpse.cs.arizona.edu/

  http://www.hpc.uh.edu/majordomo/#wilma

 
- Robin



===============================================================

Robin Whittle     rw@firstpr.com.au  http://www.firstpr.com.au
                  Heidelberg Heights, Melbourne, Australia 

First Principles  Research and expression: music, Internet 
                  music marketing, telecommunications, human 
                  factors in technology adoption. Consumer 
                  advocacy in telecommunications, especially 
                  privacy. Consulting and technical writing. 

Real World        Electronics and software for music: eg.
Interfaces        the Devil Fish mods for the TB-303.