Hans Mikelson wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I think I'm beginning to move from the realm of sound experiments to the
> realm of sound composition so I suppose that it wouldn't hurt for me to
> learn something about composing.  There is a good web site with composing
> information at:
> 
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields/gems/0.htm
> 
> I thought the section on dramatic shape of a composition was good since with
> Csound you are often working with collections of sound rather than just
> musical notes.
> 
> Can anyone reccomend some other sites?
> 
> Bye,
> Hans Mikelson

I don't think you should be looking for web sites at this stage; rather,
look for a conventional (human) music composition or  theory tutor.
You're not going to learn about music theory and composition from a web
site!  Try calling some local music stores, etc, for recomendations. 

Larry

--  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --

music theory and composition? don't pay much attention to that myself these
days. just like to make noise. but maybe you might want to read a book or
two. hated most of those studied in school. but am sure there are good
books on just about every style and topic.

know a few (and hundreds of awful ones) on jazz and, at the risk of flame,
would suggest that they could even be useful to jump start a classical
student. real utilitarian approach. perhaps because, in music geared
towards improvisation, there is no time to debate for an entire class
session exactly where the key changes. the first two quick reads will get
your feet plenty wet. and for those of you interested in jazz, you might
want to just stop there and listen to music. -perhaps the most important
study technique for all styles.

Improvising Jazz by Jerry Coker pub Prentice Hall (115 pgs)

Composing for the Jazz Orchestra by William Russo pub University Chicago
Press (a Phoenix Book) (90 pgs) -some of the notation a bit archaic but
better in...

Jazz Composition and Orchestration by William Russo  pub University of
Chicago Press 825 pgs
great for that 4 tone line thickening progressive big band stuff.

and since i hate all the other books i know, here are a few recommended to
me long ago by a theory major with sloppy handwriting.

Perspectives on Schoenberg & Stravinsky by Lowe & Buretz

textbooks by Aldwell, Schacter (sp?)
Voiceleading and Harmony, or maybe harmony and voiceleading vol 1 & 2.

Beyond Orpheus by David Epstein MIT Press

_?__ Theory by Peter Westercaard

The Classic Style by Charles Rosen

Counterpoint in Composition by Schacter - Joros?

Perspectives in Music Theory edited by Ben Boretz and Edward Lowe.

(would welcome corrected spellings, or additional info on any of the above)

ok, i did use the following basic text in school. not too bad, though it
seems the professor was always correcting it...

Harmony by Walter Piston  WW Norton & Company, New York.

you could also obtain scores of actual compositions to look at.

The Norton Scores an anthology for listening  pub by Norton

or call Carl Fisher in New York and request score of something that
interests you:
212 677-1148 band orchestra chorus
212 677-0821 piano vocal instrumental

just be sure not to actually follow any of the rules you learn.

so you see, it has been clearly stated by some of the programmers on this
list that studying programming is useless for understanding csound, from
mathematicians that studying math is useless, and from musicians that music
is useless.

hmmm. anybody know any good books on french cooking?

tolve


>Hans Mikelson wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I think I'm beginning to move from the realm of sound experiments to the
>> realm of sound composition so I suppose that it wouldn't hurt for me to
>> learn something about composing.  There is a good web site with composing
>> information at:
>>
>> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields/gems/0.htm
>>
>> I thought the section on dramatic shape of a composition was good since with
>> Csound you are often working with collections of sound rather than just
>> musical notes.
>>
>> Can anyone reccomend some other sites?
>>
>> Bye,
>> Hans Mikelson
>
>I don't think you should be looking for web sites at this stage; rather,
>look for a conventional (human) music composition or  theory tutor.
>You're not going to learn about music theory and composition from a web
>site!  Try calling some local music stores, etc, for recomendations.
>
>Larry
>
>--  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --

On Sat, 16 May 1998, tolve wrote:

> Perspectives on Schoenberg & Stravinsky by Lowe & Buretz
	
	That's Edward Cone and Ben Boretz.

> 
> textbooks by Aldwell, Schacter (sp?)
> Voiceleading and Harmony, or maybe harmony and voiceleading vol 1 & 2.

	Harmony and Voiceleading, (now in one larger volume); Aldwell &
							      Schacter.

> Beyond Orpheus by David Epstein MIT Press

	Yes.

> _?__ Theory by Peter Westercaard

	Tonal Theory. Peter Westergaard.

> The Classic Style by Charles Rosen

	Classical Style.

> Counterpoint in Composition by Schacter - Joros?

	Counterpoint in Composition by Salzer and Schacter.

> Perspectives in Music Theory edited by Ben Boretz and Edward Lowe.

	again, it's Cone and Boretz.

> (would welcome corrected spellings, or additional info on any of the above)

	You got it.

> ok, i did use the following basic text in school. not too bad, though it
> seems the professor was always correcting it...
> 
> Harmony by Walter Piston  WW Norton & Company, New York.

	That's why your prof was alway correcting it, Piston's 
	Harmony is very outdated, inaccuarate (my modern standards)
	and generally looked upon with disfavor.

> you could also obtain scores of actual compositions to look at.
	
	A very good idea.

> just be sure not to actually follow any of the rules you learn.

	A naive view to be sure. "Rules" are usually stylistic
	constraints. If you're not writing tonal music then there's
	no reason to bother with any of its stylistic constaints,
	OTOH, you'll probably never write a coherrent phrase of any
	kind of music if you don't bother with tonal music and its
	restaints. The syntactical interaction of harmony, voice leading,
	phrasing and form reach their pinnacle in western tonal music
	and that's why disgruntled music students (apparently like Tolve)
	are usually asked to study it.
> 
> so you see, it has been clearly stated by some of the programmers on this
> list that studying programming is useless for understanding csound, from
> mathematicians that studying math is useless, and from musicians that music
> is useless.

	If you want to write music then studying music is hardly useless.
	If you want to "make noise" (Tolve's stated objective, not mine),
	then yes it probably is beside the point. There are certain
	compositional universals that for the most part transcend style
	and media...studying composition (with someone who has some actual
	mastery of these skills) may give you a leg up on writing music,
	with or without Csound. 

	Bruce Quaglia

I'd suggest "Musical Composition : projects in ways and means" by Ellis B.
Kohs. As the title suggests, it uses a very practical project-oriented
approach - good for the beginning composer to get a handle on defining the
parameters for a piece and then realizing the composition.

Happy Writing!
Mark Vigorito
mtv@u.arizona.edu

oh dear, now i have gone and ruffled some feathers. sorry. just to be
clear, i like books. and teachers too. and salt grains. each to be
evaluated on its own merits.

and think math and programming and music study are all valuable for
composing within csound.

just especially fond of artistic freedom.

tolve