| Longish post. A question for John ffitch at the end (cycle length of rnd and
birnd orch functions).
At 10:39 1998-11-11 , PW wrote:
>JMC wrote:
>
>> Which is the usability of a
>> random opcode, no matter its length, if it always outputs the same sequence??
>
>Hmm. I haven't yet used any of the random opcodes very much, but
>personally, this sounds like a much bigger problem than the word length.
>If I had an instrument using random numbers for any purpose, and I
>called it twice like this:
>
>i1 0 1 ...
>i1 0 1 ...
>
>... I would want the two notes to do different things. Are you saying
>they wouldn't?
Nono, I must have expressed it unclearly. Each x-noise call will output a different
cycle of numbers. The only problem is that you can't seed them independently,
and that they will output different cycles on different platforms.
(Techie stuff almost irrelevant to your csound usage:
Internally all the x-noise opcodes (and also sndwarp and shaker and some others)
call the C-function rand(), which outputs a new number each call. The next number
output from the C rand() function is of course not really random, the requirement is
rather that it should not be easy to guess even if you know several earlier outputs.
Eventually it will repeat, problem is how soon? If you're using the Windows version
of Csound I think the cycle will not be very short, since M$ has implemented the ANSI
C rand() function using some 31- or 32-bit code (which cycles every 2^31 or 2^32 calls),
and I think John said he uses Visual studio nowadays.
But cycle length could be a problem for some other platforms, if you use several x-noise
opcodes at a-rate. However it's not sure that the output of any single say, unirand
orch statement will cycle more often even if you are using several x-noise units - instead
they might cycle between each other (eg the fifth unirand could start repeating the sequence
of the first after only a couple of thousand calls if you're using 16 a-rate unirands in several
instruments, on a platform where C rand() uses 15- or 16-bit code (which cycles every
32/65000+ calls). But then again you *could* be, er, out of luck, and have each one cycle
every 2-4000 samples (assuming 16 x-noise all called at the same rate) The output of
each distinct unirand orch statement will still be hard to guess though, so the real
problem is just that the same orchestra will not produce exactly identical output on
different platforms. Also they're not really seedable - although you might wish they were -
but then again Csound doesn't really pretend they are, since the opcode seed *is*
after all undocumented. I guess the one who coded the x-noise ugens used seed only
for testing, or thought better of it before releasing.
:End tech note)
Hm, perhaps all this looks like the x-noise ugens shouldn't be used for all noising
purposes, and it would be as much work recoding them as writing a new opcode.
But then they should output the same on all platforms, so they should anyway be
recoded, and it would perhaps be useful to have seedable non-uniform noise too.
BTW there are already today rnd() and birnd() functions to use in orchestra
statements. These use yet another implementation of pseudo-randomness,
some floating-point stuff. Just for curiosity, how long is the cycle of those? John?
re
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From: Charles Starrett
Subject: TkScore (Was: OOP or not? (perl Csound module))
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### At 4:20 AM -0500 11/11/98, Paul Winkler wrote:
>(I forgot TkScore!)
Does TkScore really exist? Where can I find it? (My internet searches
have turned up bupkis.)
Thanks,
Charles
--
/----Charles D. Starrett-----\ "I do not feel that
| / | ____ | | ____ | | my research suffered unduly
| /\ | |-- |-| ___| | | from the fact that I enjoyed it."
| |___ |____| | |_____| | *Daniel Miller,
\--starrett@fas.harvard.edu--/ Modernity--an Ethnographic Approach
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Subject: Re: Randon numbers again
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Sorry Mike but thjis is not true. The opcodes rand, randh and randi
do not use the C rand function mut have their own PRNG which is not
very good, but is repeatable. That is what I do not want to break.
The other random opcodes, mainly Paris' code as extended, use the C
rand function and so should be (a) reasonably random and (b) not the
same between processes. We could use the __rand opcode which every
ANSI C system is supposed to implement for portability, and things
would be transferable, but not so random on any good C system!
What i have done here is to implement (ie steal) a 31bit rand function
and us it in the three opcodes mentioned. It also may have to be done
to rnd and birnd, but that is a new can of creepies.
This is getting complicated.....
I do have other questions about noise operators, but they may wait
until we are all clear on this thing and what to do.
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:47:09 +0200
From: Matti Koskinen
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Charles Starrett wrote:
>
> ### At 4:20 AM -0500 11/11/98, Paul Winkler wrote:
> >(I forgot TkScore!)
>
> Does TkScore really exist? Where can I find it? (My internet searches
> have turned up bupkis.)
yes, it is still there http://www.sci.fi/~mjkoskin
-matti
mjkoskin@sci.fi
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Subject: Re: Randon numbers again
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Sorry Mike but thjis is not true. The opcodes rand, randh and randi
do not use the C rand function mut have their own PRNG which is not
very good, but is repeatable. That is what I do not want to break.
The other random opcodes, mainly Paris' code as extended, use the C
rand function and so should be (a) reasonably random and (b) not the
same between processes. We could use the __rand opcode which every
ANSI C system is supposed to implement for portability, and things
would be transferable, but not so random on any good C system!
What i have done here is to implement (ie steal) a 31bit rand function
and us it in the three opcodes mentioned. It also may have to be done
to rnd and birnd, but that is a new can of creepies.
This is getting complicated.....
I do have other questions about noise operators, but they may wait
until we are all clear on this thing and what to do.
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Date: 11 Nov 98 11:23:51 EST
From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
Subject: Re: Randon numbers again
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--- jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
That is what I do not want to break.
--- end of quote ---
could we clarify what would actually "break"?
and would that be such a terrible problem?
personally, i dont really care that much about old orcs/scos
of mine -- in fact i would say whenever i have tried to render
some of my old scores (done around version Csound 2.0 ),
70% of them were "broken" anyway due to changes in Csound
itself..
i dont know about others, but for some reason it really bugs me
to have to use "reverb2" instead of "reverb", "diskin" instead of
"soundin" and (now) "rand2" instead of "rand" (not to mention kdumps
1-4)
but then again, it sucks to have to say "outs" instead of "out" even
when you specifiy nchnls in the header..
more and more reasons to move to object oriented/real-time/SOAL-like
"Dsound"...
matt
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From: Richard Dobson
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(jumping into the middle of this thread..)
I suppose they would do different things (each takes a number in turn
from the rng), but might not be fully independent.
Because of my limited experience with different compilers and operating
systems, I have often wondered about things like rand(). If the C
library function is used, my understanding is that calls to it from
anywhere within the same process (ie a Csound run) will get the next
number in the sequence, so it is in effect a pseudo-operating system
service. The only way round that, therefore, is to provide a private
random number generator on a per-instrument basis - which is what I
understood the Csound rand generator does (I have not got round to
looking at the code), so that seeding the rng in one instrument would
not affect any other instruments. That still begs the question of
whether it is possible to have two or more independent rngs within the
same instrument - or does 'seed' apply globally within an instrument?
If there are compositional tasks that require such independence, the
only solution that I can see is to provide, OOP-style, the ability for
an instrument to have any number of private, independent rngs; so
compiler-level library functions could not be used at all, anywhere.
It's certainly ~possible~, but it must demand a fair bit of coding.
At least this would guarantee consistency across all platforms - so long
as wordsizes etc were unambiguous. There is a sort of precedent for this
in the delay opcodes, where each read/write pair forms an independent
object, but how practical this would be for a set of rngs I am not at
all sure.=20
I would be interested to know what compositional applications Csounders
have in mind for per-instrument multiple rngs.
Richard Dobson
Paul Winkler wrote:
>=20
> Josep M Comajuncosas wrote:
>=20
> > Which is the usability of a
> > random opcode, no matter its length, if it always outputs the same se=
quence?? It
> > won=B4t work for multiple chorus, nor for algorithmic composition, no=
thing... just as
> > "noise"...
>=20
> Hmm. I haven't yet used any of the random opcodes very much, but
> personally, this sounds like a much bigger problem than the word length.
> If I had an instrument using random numbers for any purpose, and I
> called it twice like this:
>=20
> i1 0 1 ...
> i1 0 1 ...
>=20
> ... I would want the two notes to do different things. Are you saying
> they wouldn't? That's no good!
>=20
> --PW
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:06:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Aaron Isaksen
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Randon numbers again
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I was in the lab the other day creating some music by randomly moving a
resonance filter. I liked the fact that every time I played a note, it
moved the filter in the *same* "random" pattern. I also implemented
a version that played a different random pattern everytime I started a new
note; but I liked the first version because it was repeatable and it had a
nice sound to it.
Since the rand/randh/randi family is consistance across platforms, every
computer I render that piece on will use the same repeated random pattern.
We call this "platform independence" and we like that.
Now if I render this song 3 years from now, I want it to sound exactly the
same. I want "temporal independence." I want my piece to sound the same
today as it did last week and as it will in version 4.0.
If we make the 31-bit RNG the default values of rand, randh, and randi
then clearly my music will render differently in the next version.
CSound should remain a platform and temporally independent standard.
-Aaron
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
> Sorry Mike but thjis is not true. The opcodes rand, randh and randi
> do not use the C rand function mut have their own PRNG which is not
> very good, but is repeatable. That is what I do not want to break.
> The other random opcodes, mainly Paris' code as extended, use the C
> rand function and so should be (a) reasonably random and (b) not the
> same between processes. We could use the __rand opcode which every
> ANSI C system is supposed to implement for portability, and things
> would be transferable, but not so random on any good C system!
>
> What i have done here is to implement (ie steal) a 31bit rand function
> and us it in the three opcodes mentioned. It also may have to be done
> to rnd and birnd, but that is a new can of creepies.
>
> This is getting complicated.....
>
> I do have other questions about noise operators, but they may wait
> until we are all clear on this thing and what to do.
>
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:06:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Aaron Isaksen
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Randon numbers again
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I was in the lab the other day creating some music by randomly moving a
resonance filter. I liked the fact that every time I played a note, it
moved the filter in the *same* "random" pattern. I also implemented
a version that played a different random pattern everytime I started a new
note; but I liked the first version because it was repeatable and it had a
nice sound to it.
Since the rand/randh/randi family is consistance across platforms, every
computer I render that piece on will use the same repeated random pattern.
We call this "platform independence" and we like that.
Now if I render this song 3 years from now, I want it to sound exactly the
same. I want "temporal independence." I want my piece to sound the same
today as it did last week and as it will in version 4.0.
If we make the 31-bit RNG the default values of rand, randh, and randi
then clearly my music will render differently in the next version.
CSound should remain a platform and temporally independent standard.
-Aaron
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
> Sorry Mike but thjis is not true. The opcodes rand, randh and randi
> do not use the C rand function mut have their own PRNG which is not
> very good, but is repeatable. That is what I do not want to break.
> The other random opcodes, mainly Paris' code as extended, use the C
> rand function and so should be (a) reasonably random and (b) not the
> same between processes. We could use the __rand opcode which every
> ANSI C system is supposed to implement for portability, and things
> would be transferable, but not so random on any good C system!
>
> What i have done here is to implement (ie steal) a 31bit rand function
> and us it in the three opcodes mentioned. It also may have to be done
> to rnd and birnd, but that is a new can of creepies.
>
> This is getting complicated.....
>
> I do have other questions about noise operators, but they may wait
> until we are all clear on this thing and what to do.
>
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:25:16 -0500
From: Paul Winkler
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To: Frank Brickle
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Subject: Obfuscated music, was Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module)
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Remix of Frank Brickle's message:
I and many of the people I know who've written music have
had this experience more than once: you come back to a piece of music
a week after you've written it, and you can't figure
out what on earth it was supposed to do.
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:30:04 -0500
From: Paul Winkler
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To: Frank Brickle
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Subject: Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module)
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Just wanted to mention that a couple of Perl people have jumped in at
comp.lang.perl.misc... you can read the thread via DejaNews at:
http://x10.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&threaded=1&ST=PS&CONTEXT=910811856.1491861535&HIT_CONTEXT=910811856.1491861535&HIT_NUM=3&recnum=%3c3646c7ae.24122529@news.erols.com%3e%233/3
> Sorry. I and many of the people I know who've used Perl have
> had this experience more than once: you come back to a piece of Perl
> code a week after you've written it, and you can't figure
> out what on earth it was supposed to do.
Fair enough. One of the patron saints (either Wall or Schwartz
probably?) does sometimes refer to Perl as "Pathologically Eclectic
Rubbish Lister."
But then, no one put a gun to your head and made you write confusing
code, did they? Or do you think Perl encourages/requires it? I haven't
yet had this problem... but then, I haven't written anything very
extensive... and I compulsively comment things.
--PW
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:38:00 -0700
From: Mike Berry
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: gainRannumdombersa
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Aaron Isaksen wrote:
>
> I was in the lab the other day creating some music by randomly moving a
> resonance filter. I liked the fact that every time I played a note, it
> moved the filter in the *same* "random" pattern. I also implemented
Sorry to sound like a broken record (broken in a random (but not, it
seems, unrepeatable) pattern) but what you are talking about is NOT
randomness as it should be defined inside an orchestra! You are in
effect using rand to create a SCORE effect - i.e. to create a random set
of p fields. This is what the score is for. If you want this
"randomness" to stay fixed for all time you should immortalize it in an
ftable and read the ftable. Why? Because, for instance, if you add
another instrument to this orchestra which uses rand, you will break the
pattern you are happy with.
We are bumping up against the question of what is "fixed" in a csound
score and orchestra (and betraying some intellectual biases, at least on
my part). If I ask for random I want to NOT know what is going to come
out, other than the fact that the number should be within the range I
asked for and every possible number should be equally likely (if I'm
asking for flat randomness, like with rand). But this is certainly
coupled with the fact that I don't like my music to sound the same each
time I play it. Which, I suppose, puts me in a csound minority.
So the question is: is csound a tool for creating a single audio
rendering or is it a compression scheme for music. In the first, it is
conceivable to design orchestras that render differently each time. In
the second, it is not. And I realize that I am likely to be in the
minority for desiring the first and not the second.
Rant over (perhaps briefly)...
--
Mike Berry
mikeb@nmol.com
http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:12:30 -0800
From: Steven Coolidge
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Subject: Re: csound ethnomusicology
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I use csound to impress girls whom I bring over to my apartment. After
they look at a few screens of opcodes they will (hopefully) become
confused and disoriented...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pete moss
> To: csound
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 12:14 PM
> Subject: csound ethnomusicology
>
> >sorry all, this is quite a bit off topic.
> >
> >i am currently enrolled in an ethnomusicology course. each of us are
> >working on projects dealing with some branch of ethnomusicology. for
> >mine, i have chosen to examine the csound community as a subset of the
> >electroacoustic community in general. what i am asking is if some of
> >you could send me personal anecdotes about how you work with csound, why
> >you chose csound, and what you do in general.
> >
> >more specific questions are:
> >1. what is your 'day job'?
> >2. would you call yourself a composer and why?
> >3. what attracts you to csound?
> >4. if you dont think of yourself as a composer, what do you do with
> >csound?
> >5. do you view yourself as different from a 'standard'
> >(non-electroacoustic) composer and why? what do you do that is
> >nonstandard (or standard for that matter)?
> >
> >please send as much as you can and i will ask further questions from
> >there. also, please reply to me personally so as to not clog the list
> >with this stuff. also also, does anyone know of any articles or books
> >dealing with this or a similar topic? also also also, didnt someone on
> >the list in the past few months collect a list of recorded compositons
> >using csound. if so, may i see it?
> >
> >thanks,
> >pete
> >
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:34:33 +0100
From: Josep M Comajuncosas
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Steven Coolidge wrote:
> I use csound to impress girls whom I bring over to my apartment. After
> they look at a few screens of opcodes they will (hopefully) become
> confused and disoriented...
Intelligent irony ... no doubt that the excussiveness of a cryptic langua=
ge,
apart from the old-fashioned text-based approach and of course the
non-commercial use we (most of us) search, can be justified by some some
snobism and sectarism... but we share them with users of similar packages
(powerful, continuously updated, multiplattform and free, but absolutely =
not
user-friendly, and umpractical for large scale projects) from other filed=
s...
we=B4re "la cr=E8me de la cr=E8me" isn=B4t it? ;-))))
Josep M Comajuncosas
PS. I personally enjoy showing my last Csound realisations to my friends.=
Of
course till I perceive they=B4re about to leave my home... it is when I f=
eel
enough satisfied (and they hopefully released of such torture) that we ca=
n go
together to take some drinks and forget everything.
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Date: 11 Nov 98 19:16:30 EST
From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
Subject: Re: gainRannumdombersa
To: mikeb@nmol.com, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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--- Mike Berry wrote:
but what you are talking about is NOT
randomness as it should be defined inside an orchestra! You are in
--- end of quote ---
well- i can see times where a composer (maybe one who had not gone through a
cagean-worship graduate program like some of us) would want to recreate a
specific stream of pseudorandom numbers...
that said, i think backwards compatibility is not that big of an issue, as i
said before i have loads of orchestras that used to work but dont now due to
changes in csound.
i think "forwards compatibility" is important - which specifying a seed value is
all about...
this is my last post on this thread.
matt
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:21:12 -0700
From: stuartf
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Sorry about this. I do belong to the Cecilia list but my first cry took
a while to get through to the server with little feedback , my second
seems to have gone into the abyss.
Tryijng to get Cecilia working under Linux / RedHat 5.1 / Kernel 2.0.35
/ Intel. I'm getting one tcl script error after another and when I
proceed Csound never launches. I can launch and compile with Csound
though on it's own. I have all the Tck Tk Tix...libraries loaded.
Anyway know if I'm missing something here? I'm wondering if there are
specific requirements for it not listed in manual/setup page.
If anyone can even give me a hint here as to what's going on and what
I should be looking for I'd greatly appreciate.
Thanks
Stuart
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From: Ross Bencina
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Subject: Re: gainRannumdombersa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:48:02 +1030
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Mike Berry writes:
> So the question is: is csound a tool for creating a single audio
>rendering or is it a compression scheme for music. In the first, it is
>conceivable to design orchestras that render differently each time. In
>the second, it is not.
Of course even in the case of a 'compression scheme' for 'music' you would
want to retain the indeterminicy if you were creating indeterminite music
and you wanted 'lossless' compression :)
Ross Bencina, Lurking again.
By way of an introduction:
You may know me from such ancient artifacts as "CsoundRB", "CurveControl"
and "RossTools/overSYTE".
Now I'm working on AudioMulch http://www.audiomulch.com/ a realtime
interactive music/dsp environment for windows. At the moment I'm looking at
spinning off a windows version of CurveControl with a built in python
interpreter - anyone using python for orc/sco generation?.
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:24:02 +0100
From: P-Tar
Organization: Centre d'Etudes de la Navigation Aerienne
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>And I realize that I am likely to be in the
>minority for desiring the first and not the second.
You're not alone....
P.T. |