Re: network protocol (was Re: Creamware)

Date	1998-04-24 04:22
From	Michael Gogins
Subject	Re: network protocol (was Re: Creamware)
	Again, I think the best approach is to keep the MIDI semantics but change the data type from byte to float or double. The MIDI semantics are everywhere in music technology and seem to work well enough. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. What's broke about MIDI is speed and precision. Both of these would be fixed by putting floating point MIDI over the Internet instead of the silly little serial cable. Mike Berry suggested tunneling MIDI and other protocols through the Internet. That's fine with me. I was aware of ZIPI and Perry Cook's approach. I even have my own protocol (which is purely for representation in memory and does not deal with networks, but it would work with IP). I don't know enough about ZIPI to judge it. Cook's work I've examined, and I seem to recall that it depends on text fields being lined up a certain way - maybe this is just how it's stored in files. Correct me if I'm wrong! Anyway, Cook's protocol is similar to mine in that it is basically MIDI with floating point fields and extra status and control IDs. I would add that I think the protocol should include a definition for file layout in the form of a text file, but I think it should be like HTML with tags marking off different sections. -----Original Message----- From: Gabriel Maldonado To: csound@noether.ex.ac.uk Date: Thursday, April 23, 1998 11:57 AM Subject: Re: network protocol (was Re: Creamware) >I think that the limits of MIDI protocol in music applications are >essentially three: > >1) data format limited to 7 bit integer giving a range of only 128 >steps per parameter (very raw for most computer music applications) > >2) slow hardware transfer rate which gives a maximum of 31000 bps, >traduced to a maximum theoric bandwidth of about 1000 -1500 messages for >second (in real cases very much lower). This rate can be enough for >keyboard solos, but it is completely insufficient for complex gestural >playing of instruments like woodwinds, strings and guitars. > >3) a limited number of channel (16) and message types (128 control >changes, aftertouch, note on-off ecc.). Most control messages are >globals (channel), only poly aftertouch is provided for changing >independently for each note in the same channel. > >I implemented some csound opcodes to overtake the first limit such as 14 >and 21 bit data slider control. I will release within short time a >Visual Basic program (I'm sorry for the other platforms owners) which >can communicate via midi with these opcodes giving to the user a GUI for >moving sliders with the mouse in real time. This program will support 14 >bit datas as >fixed point floats. > > >Gabriel Maldonado > >http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm > > >

Date	1998-04-24 19:20
From	Eli Brandt
Subject	Re: network protocol (was Re: Creamware)
	Michael Gogins wrote: > Again, I think the best approach is to keep the MIDI semantics but change > the data type from byte to float or double. The MIDI semantics are > everywhere in music technology and seem to work well enough. I like to modulate continuously-running synths; for me, MIDI's keyboard orientation is quite awkward. You get only one axis of continuous control over a playing note -- poly aftertouch -- plus on/off velocities. (And it's per-key rather than per-note, and the MIDI `semantics' leave unison overlaps undefined...) To get anything more useful requires that you only play one note per channel (insert standard rant about how sequencer software is designed around one particular way to map music onto MIDI), and there are only 16 channels. IMO, each message should include an "identifier" field -- simplest never to re-use them, so 64 bits might be wise. You could send all of an event's parameters before sending the note-on (which would no longer have to include velocity and note-number). Then control it however you like over its lifetime. There are issues with how synths are allowed to garbage-collect control data and what they should do upon running out of memory, but I think it could be worked out ok. If it's impractical to rethink MIDI, the thing at least needs more channels. (Note that its semantics require memory to scale linearly with number of channels -- could be awkward.) -- Eli Brandt \| eli+@cs.cmu.edu \| http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/ Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa00843; 24 Apr 98 21:57 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07857; 24 Apr 98 21:57 BST Received: (qmail 10207 invoked from network); 24 Apr 1998 20:57:06 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 24 Apr 1998 20:57:06 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (VAA07612); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:52:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Fri, 24 Apr 98 21:51:32 +0100 Received: from jaguars-int.cableinet.net [193.38.113.9] by hermes via SMTP (VAA25891); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:51:25 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 20435 invoked from network); 24 Apr 1998 20:46:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cableinet.co.uk) (194.117.146.42) by jaguars with SMTP; 24 Apr 1998 20:46:31 -0000 Message-Id: <3540FAE7.959E8817@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:49:43 +0100 From: Richard Dobson Organization: Composers Desktop project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Creamware (Really!) References: <01bd6f31$f0ca1ca0$548356d1@axe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk This does sound a little bit like a moral imperative to me! Nowadays 'the computer' is already a multi-processor object, even without audio - both the graphics and disk subsystems employ powerful processors, dsps and local memory, so that the operating system can concentrate on its primary task - these days, switching applications. The 'control interface' is message-based, and the transmission of these messages is managed entirely by the OS, and there is no guarantee that any message will arrive at its destination at a precise instant of time. Even the PC timers are not that accurate! I do not believe that any general-purpose pre-emptive multi-tasking computer can reliably deliver the essential requirement for latency-free real-time synthesis and performance - that everything be run within a tightly clocked single-sample loop, which is how all dedicated hardware-based synthesizers and effects units operate. Even Extended Csound starts to struggle when ksmps = 1. The difference, of course, betweeen audio and the graphics + disk subsystems is that the functionality of the latter two is very tightly defined, with standard interfaces (such as OpenGL, SCSI, etc), whereas the requirements for audio are in a fairly constant state of flux and evolution. This is the justification for the software approach (indeed Csound might conceivably amount to the audio counterpart to OpenGL) - but for any given approach a dedicated hardware implementation, without the overhead of a multi-tasking OS, will be more efficient, more reliable, and quite possibly more practical in live performance. The advantage of the software approach is flexibility, but arguably not speed. I consider that for us, the current paradigm of the combination of software synthesis coupled to an optimized hardware-based audio subsystem, which can itself be enhanced or upgraded as requirements change, is close to optimal, for the general-purpose computer, and is likely to remain so for a while yet. The paradigm shift represented by systems such as KYMA ,ISPW and now aparrently brought more into the mainstream by the SCOPE system and, potentially, the ADI card, is that all the audio software which we presently write and use on a general-purpose computer can now be run alternatively on a hardware subsystem designed expressly for the job, without losing any of our cherished flexibility - it is simply one computer controlling another. As for the moral imperative, I suspect that this is overruled by a greater one, that however powerful and fast an audio system, a musician will, sooner or later, demand more of it that it can deliver! Richard Dobson Michael Gogins wrote: > This is a very intriguing development about which I have definite comments. > > In the first place, I firmly believe that the future of music lies strictly > in software, the only hardware being the computer itself, the control > interface, the digital to analog converter, the amplifier, and the > loudspeakers. > > This is because it takes much less time to write software than it does to > create chips and firmware, and regular PCs are now fast enough to do > considerable DSP and synthesis in real time. > Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa00856; 24 Apr 98 22:06 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08269; 24 Apr 98 22:06 BST Received: (qmail 10512 invoked from network); 24 Apr 1998 21:05:54 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 24 Apr 1998 21:05:54 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (VAA00689); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:56:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Fri, 24 Apr 98 21:56:12 +0100 Received: from howl.werewolf.net [206.103.224.20] by hermes via SMTP (VAA04764); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:56:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from hljmm by howl.werewolf.net via SMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI) for id PAA11083; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:56:10 -0500 From: Hans Mikelson To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork Subject: Industrial Noise Loops orc/sco Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:56:45 -0500 Message-Id: <01bd6fc3$7deafd20$1de167ce@hljmm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hi all, Here is an orchestra & score for making industrial noise based on looping pulsed noise. Have fun, Hans Mikelson ;------------------------------------------------------------------ ; Industry ; by Hans Mikelson April 1998 ;------------------------------------------------------------------ ; ORCHESTRA sr=44100 kr=22050 ksmps=2 nchnls=2 instr 2 idur = p3 iamp = p42 ifqc = cpspch(p5) iplstab = p6 irattab = p7 iratrat = p8 ipantab = p9 imixtab = p10 iloop = p11 adel init 0 kprate oscil 1, iratrat, irattab ; Pulse Rate kamp oscil iamp, kprate, iplstab ; Amplitude Pulse kloop linseg 0, .005, 1, iloop-.01, 1, .005, 0, p3-iloop-.01, 0 ; Gate in delay loop kpan oscil 1, 1/idur, ipantab ; Panning kmix oscil 1, 1/idur, imixtab ; Fading asig rand kamp ; Noise source aflt butterbp asig, ifqc, ifqc/4 ; Band Filter abal balance aflt, asig ; Bring level back up aout = abalkloop+adel ; Gate in with feedback adel delay aout, iloop ; Delay outs aoutsqrt(kpan)kmix, aoutsqrt(1-kpan)kmix ; Output pan & fade endin ; SCORE ; Pulse Tables f10 0 1024 7 0 256 0 256 1 256 0 256 0 f11 0 1024 7 0 256 0 128 0 128 1 128 0 128 0 256 0 ; Rate Tables f20 0 1024 -5 1 512 200 512 100 f21 0 1024 -5 10 1024 1000 f22 0 1024 -5 100 512 10000 512 30 f23 0 1024 -5 25 1024 62 f24 0 1024 -7 500 1024 62 f25 0 1024 -5 5000 1024 1000 f26 0 1024 -7 50 512 500 512 50 ; Pan Tables f30 0 1024 7 0 1024 1 f31 0 1024 7 1 1024 0 f32 0 1024 7 1 512 0 512 1 f33 0 1024 7 .5 1024 .5 ; Mix Tables f40 0 1024 5 .01 256 1 512 1 256 .01 f41 0 1024 5 .01 128 1 768 1 128 .01 f42 0 1024 5 1 1024 1 ; Generate industrial tones ; Sta Dur Amp Pitch PulseTab RtTab RtRt PanTab MixTab Loop i2 0 8 8000 9.00 11 22 1 31 41 .2 i2 3 10 8000 7.00 10 22 1 32 41 .3 i2 7 12 8000 9.00 11 23 10 30 40 .2 i2 9 12 8000 8.00 11 24 10 32 41 .05 i2 11 20 8000 7.00 11 25 4 31 40 .5 i2 12 22 8000 7.02 11 25 10 32 41 .2 i2 17 2 8000 6.00 11 26 10 33 42 .010 i2 19.5 2 8000 6.00 11 26 10 33 42 .011 i2 22 2 8000 6.00 11 26 10 33 42 .012 i2 17 10 8000 8.05 11 26 10 31 41 .08 Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01065; 25 Apr 98 1:32 BST Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16369; 25 Apr 98 1:31 BST Received: (qmail 24728 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 00:31:51 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 00:31:51 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (BAA05045); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:27:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 25 Apr 98 01:27:12 +0100 Received: from root@xochi.tezcat.com [204.128.247.12] by hermes via ESMTP (BAA18848); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:27:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from [204.248.80.120] (antiorp.tezcat.com [204.248.80.120]) by xochi.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id TAA25868 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:27:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804250027.TAA25868@xochi.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:34:34 -0600 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk From: =cw4t7abs Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >systems such as KYMA ,ISPW and now aparrently >brought more into the mainstream by the SCOPE system and, potentially, the ADI >card, >- it is simply one computer controlling another. msp 4 macintosh + max. k!kx kyma komponentz. 4 1 frakt!on ov dze kozt. >As for the moral imperative, I suspect that this is overruled by a greater one, >that however powerful and fast an audio system, a musician will, sooner or >later, demand more of it that it can deliver! dzat = s!nsz art!stz lakc. 1o year oLd zystemz = abov mozt art.!stz reku!rmentz. !n fakt art.!stz.pozer.akadem!kx \|\| kommerc!aL = ultra kommerc!al lak.age. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01075; 25 Apr 98 1:41 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16789; 25 Apr 98 1:41 BST Received: (qmail 18225 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 00:41:22 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 00:41:22 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (BAA18090); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:38:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 25 Apr 98 01:37:57 +0100 Received: from lt@westnet.com [206.24.6.2] by hermes via ESMTP (BAA05517); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:37:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (lt@localhost) by westnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04849; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:37:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Larry Troxler To: =cw4t7abs Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199804250027.TAA25868@xochi.tezcat.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, =cw4t7abs wrote: > 4 1 frakt!on ov dze kozt. 3 1 !zz. hum!nz Zuks. > > dzat = s!nsz art!stz lakc. > 1o year oLd zystemz = abov mozt art.!stz reku!rmentz. > !n fakt art.!stz.pozer.akadem!kx \|\| kommerc!aL = > ultra kommerc!al lak.age. > redund!ntz fasc!st pigs! Kummerc!al Zuks! ==tabs != Ko0l dewdZ -- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA -- Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01081; 25 Apr 98 1:43 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16897; 25 Apr 98 1:43 BST Received: (qmail 18268 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 00:43:27 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 00:43:27 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (BAA18677); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:40:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 25 Apr 98 01:39:30 +0100 Received: from camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58] by hermes via ESMTP (BAA26808); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:39:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from axe (user-38ld0j9.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.130.105]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA00941; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:39:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Gogins To: Daniel Fattorini , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork Subject: Re: csound in plug in design Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:48:06 -0400 Message-Id: <01bd6fe3$cf974aa0$698256d1@axe> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk From: Daniel Fattorini To: csound@noether.ex.ac.uk Date: Friday, April 24, 1998 9:35 AM Subject: csound in plug in design > >I have heard of various music applications that use csound in their waveform >generation while not actually giving the user the standard csound interface. >I am a student of music and I would like to develop a plug in for >steinberg's Cubase VST. This can be done reasonably simply using C++ >programming. What I would like to know is whether I could incorporate a >csound program into the design using soundin etc. to input the sound from >vst and give myself more effects capabilities. CSound code as it now stands is not re-entrant and cannot be used in the form of a shared library, which is required for these plugins. Extended Csound might work well in this context, however. I would have thought that as >C++ is an object orientated language it might be possible. Ideally I would >like to create a set of plug ins similar to GRM tools on the pro tools TDM >system. On another note, it would have to work in real time and not immensly >processor intensive. Also, if I developed them and sold them, what would the >licensing situation be, as csound is freeware, does that mean that you can >use it as part of another program without having to pay money to MIT. MIT owns the copyright to Csound and has licensed it to Analog Devices Inc. for Extended Csound. You should contact MIT if you want to license it for yourself. Without a license, you would simply be trying things and seeing what you could get away with. I wouldn't bet on the outcome one way - or the other! Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01107; 25 Apr 98 2:06 BST Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa17828; 25 Apr 98 2:06 BST Received: (qmail 24873 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 01:06:13 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 01:06:13 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (CAA16015); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:00:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 25 Apr 98 02:00:30 +0100 Received: from camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58] by hermes via ESMTP (CAA23854); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:00:23 +0100 (BST) Received: from axe (user-38ld0j9.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.130.105]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA10378; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:00:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Gogins To: eli+@cs.cmu.edu, Csound mailing list MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork Subject: Re: network protocol (was Re: Creamware) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:08:59 -0400 Message-Id: <01bd6fe6$ba5907c0$698256d1@axe> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >Michael Gogins wrote: >> Again, I think the best approach is to keep the MIDI semantics but change >> the data type from byte to float or double. The MIDI semantics are >> everywhere in music technology and seem to work well enough. > >I like to modulate continuously-running synths; for me, MIDI's >keyboard orientation is quite awkward. You get only one axis of >continuous control over a playing note -- poly aftertouch -- plus >on/off velocities. (And it's per-key rather than per-note, and the >MIDI `semantics' leave unison overlaps undefined...) To get anything >more useful requires that you only play one note per channel (insert >standard rant about how sequencer software is designed around one >particular way to map music onto MIDI), and there are only 16 >channels. These are good points, but I think we'd farther faster by keeping the present semantics and adding new status IDs for new control messages that you need, etc. Note that in my scheme, with all fields real, channels can be any real-numbered value. To be more precise, my layout is: double status (values 0 through 255 have MIDI semantics, except low nybble is always 0; instrument number used instead; values above 255 have new semantics). double instrument number (can be low nybble of MIDI status field, or numbers greater than 15). double time in seconds (or beats) double duration in seconds (or beats) (not required for actual instrument control, useful for storing events in scores) double pitch (in linear octaves, middle C = 8.0, or MIDI keys, middle C = 60.0), or data field 1. double loudness (in decibels up from 0 = no energy, roughly maps to MIDI velocity), or data field 2. double phase (I added this to accomodate granular synthesis), or data field 3... etc. double x dimension of space, i.e. pan double y dimension of space double z dimension of space Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01138; 25 Apr 98 2:43 BST Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa19550; 25 Apr 98 2:43 BST Received: (qmail 25034 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 01:43:21 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 01:43:21 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (CAA25882); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:40:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 25 Apr 98 02:40:17 +0100 Received: from GS160.SP.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.203.172] by hermes via SMTP (CAA14573); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:40:10 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199804250140.CAA14573@hermes> Subject: Re: network protocol (was Re: Creamware) To: Csound mailing list Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:39:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Eli Brandt In-Reply-To: <01bd6fe6$ba5907c0$698256d1@axe> from "Michael Gogins" at Apr 24, 98 09:08:59 pm X-Portmanteau: pantryptaminergeticallysisterrainbowtie Reply-To: eli+@cs.cmu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25-40] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Michael Gogins wrote: > Note that in my scheme, with all fields real, channels can be any > real-numbered value. But what does this mean to an implementor? If your channels are 64-bit doubles like your other values, MIDI semantics require me to maintain (2^64)(64 bits)*(number of per-channel controllers) of state information -- untenable. Of course I can unilaterally start playing games where I garbage-collect channels I haven't seen for a while, but as long as we're breaking MIDI semantics let's set the bone properly... -- Eli Brandt \| eli+@cs.cmu.edu \| http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/ Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01392; 25 Apr 98 5:23 BST Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa29860; 25 Apr 98 5:23 BST Received: (qmail 25789 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 04:23:39 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 04:23:39 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (FAA25060); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 05:20:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 25 Apr 98 05:20:32 +0100 Received: from mail.infohouse.com [206.30.88.4] by hermes via ESMTP (FAA05351); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 05:20:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from [208.151.41.204] by milhouse.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 141-39833U2500L250S0) with ESMTP id AAA149; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:19:12 -0400 X-Sender: ic11748@mail.infohouse.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804250027.TAA25868@xochi.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:21:29 -0400 To: =cw4t7abs From: tolve Subject: off topic. Re: Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >dzat = s!nsz art!stz lakc. >1o year oLd zystemz = abov mozt art.!stz reku!rmentz. >!n fakt art.!stz.pozer.akadem!kx \|\| kommerc!aL = >ultra kommerc!al lak.age. yes perhaps most, in terms of some sets of numbers, for most artists. but let each of us choose our own tools. and there is enough of a wind player still inside of me (insert cheap shot here) to be powerfully aroused by the recent banter regarding a more capable alternative to midi. someday soon there will be widely, and inexpensively, available the same intuitive control of nuance in realtime electronic instruments that has been enjoyed by acoustic instrumentalists for thousands of years. except enhanced by programmability! just one example toolset. no, not relevant to the work of all artists, or even myself at the moment, but to those so inclined, a godsend. or blessing. depending on religious inclinations or lack thereof. in fact i believe there already is a new dedicated system available for wind players. sorry don't remember name of it -do recall it was pricey. and incidentally, the circa 1977 non-midi Lyricon was, in my opinion, expressively and ergonomically far superior to any midi wind driver i ever tried up to about 1990 -haven't looked at anything since. as for the academic world, sure plenty of posers on both sides of the desk. but none of us may agree on identification. and we certainly have to thank that world for much (most?) of the program which we discuss on this list. guess there aren't enough kings and queens left to support this sort of thing. moreover, it's a lot harder to develop skills to make art if most of your time is spent in a completely unrelated job. not that life experience doesn't contribute to art. think sometimes it contributes just too much. turning to the commercial world. perhaps it would not have to be so commercial in the US if it weren't for tax regulations that in many instances double the burden on for-profit art ventures, anti-union regulations (musicians do not enjoy the same collective bargaining rights as construction workers & garment workers) and coming soon to a jurisdiction near you, the raping of intellectual property rights. tolve Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01781; 25 Apr 98 12:04 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15348; 25 Apr 98 12:04 BST Received: (qmail 1523 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 11:04:17 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 11:04:17 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (LAA11546); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:57:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 25 Apr 98 11:57:21 +0100 Received: from jaguars-int.cableinet.net [193.38.113.9] by hermes via SMTP (LAA08850); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:57:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 13206 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 10:52:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cableinet.co.uk) (194.117.146.12) by jaguars with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 10:52:20 -0000 Message-Id: <3541C11C.9801A54A@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:55:24 +0100 From: Richard Dobson Organization: Composers Desktop project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: References: <199804250027.TAA25868@xochi.tezcat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Why stop at ten years? Was it really such a Golden Age in 1988? The push/pull betweeen instrument makers, composers and performers has been going on for centuries - the change of the flute from the renaissance cylindrical form to the Hotteterre conical form, to give a wider useable range and better tuning, the transition from fretted viols to fretless violins, the progressive addition of keys to wind instruments, longer keyboards, the invention of the clarinet and the saxophone, the development of the fortepiano, the strengthening of the case for same, followed later still by overstringing, addition of valves to brass instruments - it's a vast list. Some inventions failed to pass the test of time - too complex, unwieldy, etc, or simply the test of fashion. Fractional-tone keyboards were invented in ancient china, many many centuries ago, but never caught on. No doubt there were posers in all these fields, but history has easily forgotten them, as they (by definition) did not produce anything. There is clearly a general consensus that most Western orchestral instruments have now reached the optimum poise betweeen difficulty, utility and expressiveness - except perhaps in the field of percussion isnstruments, where invention has never ceased. That is after several centuries of development. So we all have a way to go yet. Some developments were pioneered by already highly skilled artists - Boehm worked very hard to perfect the flute, despite endangering his long-acquired (20 years) virtuoso skills on the simple instrument with which he started.Then he wrote music which stretched the new instrument to its limits (or so he thought...). He was a skilled goldsmith, and, among other things, also invented an improved method for smelting steel. He also suggested to Broadwood the idea of overstringing the piano. No poser, he! Having invented the modern flute, other composers came along and wrote even more difficult passages for it - they wanted higher notes, lower notes, louder notes, softer notes, more notes...several notes at the same time.... plus ca change....Richard Dobson > > > >As for the moral imperative, I suspect that this is overruled by a greater one, > >that however powerful and fast an audio system, a musician will, sooner or > >later, demand more of it that it can deliver! > > dzat = s!nsz art!stz lakc. > 1o year oLd zystemz = abov mozt art.!stz reku!rmentz. > !n fakt art.!stz.pozer.akadem!kx \|\| kommerc!aL = > ultra kommerc!al lak.age. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01819; 25 Apr 98 12:50 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa17076; 25 Apr 98 12:50 BST Received: (qmail 2767 invoked from network); 25 Apr 1998 11:49:57 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 25 Apr 1998 11:49:57 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (MAA12787); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:41:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 25 Apr 98 12:41:18 +0100 Received: from root@xochi.tezcat.com [204.128.247.12] by hermes via ESMTP (MAA17352); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:41:06 +0100 (BST) Received: from [204.248.80.120] (antiorp.tezcat.com [204.248.80.120]) by xochi.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id GAA13297 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:41:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804251141.GAA13297@xochi.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:48:37 -0600 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk From: =cw4t7abs Subject: Re:Re:Re: Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >Why stop at ten years? Was it really such a Golden Age in 1988? 1 cray 2 bokx = process!ng power eku!valent 2 1 small ro.dent stopd at 1dek-a!d. due 2 perzonal eczper!ensz w!th kode + hardware 4rom dzat per!od. wh!ch az = often dze kasz haz hardl+e b!n eczplo!td. az w!ttgenste!n observd 1 ga!nz !ns!ghtz mostl+e through dze re:re:re:arrangement ov maTTer 1 = alread+e fam!l!ar w!th + not by aku!r!ng new data. people do not become thinkers simply because their memories are too good. = nietzsche if you're good at finding the one right answer to life's multiple-choice questions, you're smart. but intelligence is what you need when contemplating the leftovers in the refrigerator, trying to figure out what might go with them. or if trying to speak a sentence that you've never spoken before. as jean piaget used to say, intelligence is what you use when you don't know what to do, when all the standard answers are inadequate. = zom1 elsz >Some inventions failed to pass the test of time - too complex, unwieldy, etc, >or >There is clearly a general consensus that most Western orchestral instruments >have >Some developments were pioneered by already highly skilled artists - Boehm >worked >plus ca change....Richard Dobson tzzt. hT Tp://1 \|\|\|\|\|\| 0 f 0 0 0 3 . d p h l e k t \|\|\|\|\|\| 94.1 9. 13 0.1 94/=cw4t7abs