-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Thompson 
To: Charles Baker 
Cc: csound mailing list 
Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: network protocol (was Re: Creamware)


>Floats would be good. But I think Im missing something. Isnt MIDI
>transmitted as 8-bit? so how would floats increase the resolution?

Floats have 32 bits divided between mantissa and exponent. Doubles have 64.
That's a LOT more resolution.

>Some problems in MIDI hardware also. I know of many synths that dont even
use
>the full 127 step resolution on controllers. Not only
>that but depending on the amount of MIDI info getting sent out/in the port
can
>cause data loss due to the type of network MIDI uses.

Whether synths use the entire MIDI resolution or not is beside the point.
The MIDI resolution is inadequate for serious music, period.

On 27-Apr-98 Michael Gogins wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Thompson 
> To: Charles Baker 
> Cc: csound mailing list 
> Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: network protocol (was Re: Creamware)
> 
> 
>>Floats would be good. But I think Im missing something. Isnt MIDI
>>transmitted as 8-bit? so how would floats increase the resolution?
> 
> Floats have 32 bits divided between mantissa and exponent. Doubles have 64.
> That's a LOT more resolution.
Yes, I realize that. My question is how can MIDI take advantage of that
resolution? How are 32-bit or 64-bit floats represented in MIDI?
 
>>Some problems in MIDI hardware also. I know of many synths that dont even
> use
>>the full 127 step resolution on controllers. Not only
>>that but depending on the amount of MIDI info getting sent out/in the port
> can
>>cause data loss due to the type of network MIDI uses.
> 
> Whether synths use the entire MIDI resolution or not is beside the point.
> The MIDI resolution is inadequate for serious music, period.
Ok, I guess I missed the point. You want to create another protocal. Hmmm, now
how can we let the current MIDI hardware interface with this new protocal. ZIPI
was/is (is it still around?) backwards compat. with MIDI but the only benifit
was the speed of the network. New synths would have to be made ZIPI aware and
old synths reto-fitted with new hardware/software. The real "big money" world of
music will not let that happen anytime soon. 

I saw an interesting talk at SEAMUS this year. At IRCAM they are using jMax and
a Yamaha MIDI wind controller for real-time control using physical modeling
synthesis of wind/reed instruments. You might try poking around the IRCAM site
for this info, sorry I dont have it on me. My guess it that they are not using
the incoming MIDI data in a 1 to 1 mapping for expression control. I dont know
what they are using but it seemed to greatly increase the amount of control the
MIDI controller had over the quality and flexiblity of the sound. Some extended
techniques on a clarinet model where used as well...
----------------------------------
E-Mail: Michael Thompson 
Date: 27-Apr-98
Time: 11:01:07

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From: Michael Gogins 
To: Nathan Day , 
    Csound mailing list 
Subject: Re: More on floats in Midi
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:13:09 -0400
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-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Day 
To: Csound mailing list 
Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 6:12 AM
Subject: More on floats in Midi


>Simple 16 bit integers would allow you to divide 10 octaves into interval
>of 0.183105 cents, and a dynamic range of 130 dB into intervals 0.00198364
>dB, do we really need 32 bit floats or even floats at all.

Engineering of all sorts in general, and music engineering in particular,
has repeatedly found with pain and suffering that numbers deemed too precise
or too big to start with are nothing like big enough in the end.

Examples: 8 bit address space in calculator, not big enough for a few pages
of text.
16 bit address space in IBM PC, big enough for a chapter of a novel, but NOT
big enough for a color graphics video screen.
32 bit address space in current PCs and workstations, big enough for color
graphics, NOT big enough for a movie or for the index on a serious
database...
64 bit address space in new generation workstations, big enough for any
number of movies and entire large databases, but I suspect that in the
future, it will be found NOT big enough to hold entire libraries of entire
civilizations, or recordings of thought, or something...

8 bit sample word at 11025 KHz, big enough for cheesy game music, NOT big
enough for home hi fi.
16 bit sample word at 44100 KHz, big enough for home hi fi, but lo and
behold, NOT big enough for serious music in spite of claims to the contrary!
Music industry moves to 24 bit sample word at 96 KHz...

>Remember that
>midi is designed to represent music in a abstract musical way, not actually
>physical values like Hz and watts.

MY music is DEFINITELY represented in physical values such as Hz, location
in space by angle, phase, and loudness in dB.

>Things like tunings should be set in the
>synth not on your Midi keyboards or what every. All right dynamic tunning
>is an idea I myself find interesting but 0.183 cents should handle that.

Do not underestimate your own ears. Use Csound and synthesize sine tones 10
cents, 5 cents, 1 cent, 1/2 cent, 1/10 cent apart and SEE if you can hear
it. You have to allow not only the digits to represent that, but double the
number to allow for rounding errors in repeated computer arithmetic.

In short, it is most wise to err on the size of way too big. That means, in
practice, use the biggest size of number and most precision that the tools
allow. I guarantee you, you WILL end up hearing the difference.












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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:55:51 +0930
To: Larry Troxler 
From: Peter 
Subject: Re: FIR and IIR Filters
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At 5:00 AM 26/4/98, Larry Troxler replied to the question

>> (1) What exactly is the difference between impulse response and
>>frequency response?
>
>In non-precise terms, Impulse response is the sound waveform you get out
>for the filter, by sending an input that  is just a single
>infinitely-narrow spike. So impulse response is a time-domain waveform.
>You could almost think of clapping your hands in a concert hall and
>recording the reverberations (although this isn't really exact, since a
>hand clap isn't an ideal impulse).
>
>The frequency response of the filter is the fourier transform of the
>impulse response. It is the same response, but expressed as a frequency
>spectrum of the impulse response.

Thankyou for clearing this up. I have often wondered on the difference myself.
Being a bit of a convolution fan I have also often wondered how I would go
about making one of those " single infinitely-narrow spike " as it might be
fun to set one off in various accoustic environments to record the impulse
response for use with convolution. Im sure it's simple enough to do in Csound
but I dont have any ideas on where to start. Any help would be truly great.

Thankyou

Peter S

http://sustenance.va.com.au














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Michael Gogins wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathan Day 
> To: Csound mailing list 
> Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 6:12 AM
> Subject: More on floats in Midi
> 
> >Simple 16 bit integers would allow you to divide 10 octaves into interval
> >of 0.183105 cents, and a dynamic range of 130 dB into intervals 0.00198364
> >dB, do we really need 32 bit floats or even floats at all.
> 
> Engineering of all sorts in general, and music engineering in particular,
> has repeatedly found with pain and suffering that numbers deemed too precise
> or too big to start with are nothing like big enough in the end.
> 

What's all this talk about 32 bit floats,etc ? Maybe I'm missing the
obvious, but wouldn't some hypothetical future networked MIDI
replacement transmit messages in ASCII and not binary? IOW, wouldn't you
want to transmit a value of 2.67 as the ASCII string "2.67"? What
argument could you make for transmitting binrary floats instead? Please
don't say because ASCII takes more bandwidth and processing time to
decode - I sincerely doubt that this would be the limiting factor!

Or perhaps you *don't* want to be able to telnet to a synthesizer that
implements this hypothetical protocal, and be able to type in simple
test messages. Or be able to write simple filters using pipes and perl,
etc.

Larry
 



--  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --












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Michael Gogins wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathan Day 
> To: Csound mailing list 
> Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 6:12 AM
> Subject: More on floats in Midi
> 
> >Simple 16 bit integers would allow you to divide 10 octaves into interval
> >of 0.183105 cents, and a dynamic range of 130 dB into intervals 0.00198364
> >dB, do we really need 32 bit floats or even floats at all.
> 
> Engineering of all sorts in general, and music engineering in particular,
> has repeatedly found with pain and suffering that numbers deemed too precise
> or too big to start with are nothing like big enough in the end.
> 

What's all this talk about 32 bit floats,etc ? Maybe I'm missing the
obvious, but wouldn't some hypothetical future networked MIDI
replacement transmit messages in ASCII and not binary? IOW, wouldn't you
want to transmit a value of 2.67 as the ASCII string "2.67"? What
argument could you make for transmitting binrary floats instead? Please
don't say because ASCII takes more bandwidth and processing time to
decode - I sincerely doubt that this would be the limiting factor!

Or perhaps you *don't* want to be able to telnet to a synthesizer that
implements this hypothetical protocal, and be able to type in simple
test messages. Or be able to write simple filters using pipes and perl,
etc.

Larry
 



--  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --












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From: Michael Gogins 
To: Larry Troxler , Peter 
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Subject: Re: FIR and IIR Filters
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:57:11 -0400
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>Being a bit of a convolution fan I have also often wondered how I would go
>about making one of those " single infinitely-narrow spike " as it might be
>fun to set one off in various accoustic environments to record the impulse
>response for use with convolution. Im sure it's simple enough to do in
Csound
>but I dont have any ideas on where to start. Any help would be truly great.


In Csound the closest you can get is sample 1 amplitude = 32767 all
subsequent samples amplitude = 0.

In taking impulse responses of halls, I don't know what the pros do, but I
suppose one of those starter pistols might serve, or clapping two flat
sticks of hard wood together.












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From: Michael Gogins 
To: Larry Troxler 
Cc: Nathan Day , 
    Csound mailing list 
Subject: Re: More on floats in Midi
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:01:10 -0400
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>What's all this talk about 32 bit floats,etc ? Maybe I'm missing the
>obvious, but wouldn't some hypothetical future networked MIDI
>replacement transmit messages in ASCII and not binary? IOW, wouldn't you
>want to transmit a value of 2.67 as the ASCII string "2.67"? What
>argument could you make for transmitting binrary floats instead?


Good point. Actually I was assuming that the data MIGHT be transmitted, and
SHOULD be stored, as text. But the numbers have to be converted to float or
double to monkey with them, to represent them in useful form in the memory
of the computer.

Plus, I do think the speed gained by keeping the transmission protocol
binary would be worth something. There is never such a thing as enough
speed.












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Michael Gogins wrote:

> ...Plus, I do think the speed gained by keeping the transmission protocol
> binary would be worth something. There is never such a thing as enough
> speed.

I suppose it depends on what the transmission medium is. Certainly if
you're talking about TCP/IP, the extra bytes would be irrelevant
compared to the TCP/IP overhead.

And while, yes, the stuff has to be dealt with in binary eventually
anyway, I'm not convinced that the drawbacks of the extra conversion
overhead are significant these days. And obviously, if you're thinking
of desktop-hosted software audio synthesis, than  the extra processing
is going to be completely insignificant compared to the audio synthesis.

If you *do* decide to transmit binrary info across a network, then which
format do you use? Which byte-order? etc, etc...
     
--  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --












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> 
> In taking impulse responses of halls, I don't know what the pros do, but I
> suppose one of those starter pistols might serve, or clapping two flat
> sticks of hard wood together.

	Or the ever-popular burst balloon.

-- 
Mike Berry
mikeb@nmol.com
http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb













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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: "A. Archias" 
Subject: Re: Re; Csnd 3.47 to 3.48 last time
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>>From   jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk

I do wonder myself!  I suspect I changed some magic option, or removed
debugging or something.  
==John

>>>>> "Andy" == A Archias  writes:

 Andy>   I have to ask, why is the winsound.exe ver 3.47 =1.8meg and the 3.48
 Andy> version so much smaller (appr 717K) ?
>


>>>>Andy  Oh....  OK.












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Subject: Re: FIR and IIR Filters
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Mike Berry wrote:

> >
> > In taking impulse responses of halls, I don't know what the pros do,

The traditional acoustician's impulse is what is known as a "spark gap"...a
strong current is applied to two sides of a small gap: the current leaps the
gap with a sharp report (caused by the same physics as thunder claps).
This is known to have a fairly even frequency response (apx. equal across
most of the human range of hearing.)
The cool suggestions (all of which would give you something cool to work with)
have two deviations from the "ideal" impulse:
1) too long! Almost everything one can easily do is too long, and 'bleeds into'
the hall's response, masking the all important "first echos".
2) Colored itself. If you use a click or tap that has anysort of recognisable
timbre or "tone color", what you get in the hall's "response" convolved with
the impulse's "color". Cool results for us as musicians, but not apppropriate
for acoustics....as if we care!! ;-)

> --
> Mike Berry
> mikeb@nmol.com
> http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb



--
*********************************************
Charlie Baker              baker@charlieb.com
 "when everything isn't roses, you don't get
   any headroom" - Thomas Dolby "New Toy"
*********************************************














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From: "A. Archias" 
Subject: Re; Gadget Labs Quad Card w Csound
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 Hello;

 Had anyone tried the 4 channel Gadget Labs Card? They said on thier
web it should not conflict with an existing (ISA) ex. SB AWE32 card in the
system. Seems as though this may be the least expensive way to start
with Quad playback. A friend at work had a PCI SB clone who said the
audio sometimes broke up as his video (PCI) card and clone were competing for
resources. This quad card (w its own driver) is ISA also w its cache memory.
Seems to me this would be a better approach than 2 SB cards set to diff
address and int.

 Andy 












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Subject: Re: FIR and IIR Filters
To: Csound mailing list 
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From: Eli Brandt 
In-Reply-To: <01bd7251$5701dfe0$b78156d1@axe> from "Michael Gogins" at Apr 27, 98 10:57:11 pm
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Michael Gogins wrote:
> In taking impulse responses of halls, I don't know what the pros do, but I
> suppose one of those starter pistols might serve, or clapping two flat
> sticks of hard wood together.

A narrow amplitude-limited impulse has very little energy, so the
measured impulse response has lousy S/N.  If you had a signal x whose
autocorrelation were an impulse, you could measure
        y = x * hall    so that         x (*) y = x(*)x * hall = hall

What you do is you take a maximum-length sequence generated by a
shift-register PRNG and rescale it to +/-1.  Through some magic (it
falls out of the algebra, but I don't really know _why_), this has
almost the desired property.

I've heard the biggest gotcha is to watch out for temporal aliasing
(since you're using a finite periodic signal).  And don't measure on
the first period, since you're dealing with circular correlation...

-- 
     Eli Brandt  |  eli+@cs.cmu.edu  |  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/











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Subject: Re: Re; Gadget Labs Quad Card w Csound
To: Csound mailing list 
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In-Reply-To: <199804280353.WAA03278@skye1.skyenet.net> from "A. Archias" at Apr 27, 98 10:53:39 pm
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A. Archias wrote:
> A friend at work had a PCI SB clone who said the
> audio sometimes broke up as his video (PCI) card and clone were competing for
> resources.

A badly-behaved PCI card (aggressively-driven video cards are
notorious for this) will screw anything else on the PCI bus --
including the ISA bus and everything hanging off it.

-- 
     Eli Brandt  |  eli+@cs.cmu.edu  |  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/











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Eli Brandt wrote:
> 
> A. Archias wrote:
> > A friend at work had a PCI SB clone who said the
> > audio sometimes broke up as his video (PCI) card and clone were competing for
> > resources.
> 
> A badly-behaved PCI card (aggressively-driven video cards are
> notorious for this) will screw anything else on the PCI bus --
> including the ISA bus and everything hanging off it.
Here in Conservatorio "S.Cecilia" we have a new PC (Pentium II 300 MHz)
with an ATI RAGE PCI video card and a Korg 1212 PCI audio card, and we
experienced the same beheving: an interruption of audio data flow with
an "Excessive activity on PCI bus" message. Some video card allow a
different configuration (i.e. Matrox Mystique), but this is a known
problem. May be an AGP video card will do better?

Riccardo

-- 

Riccardo Bianchini, Professor
Scuola di Musica Elettronica
Conservatorio "S.Cecilia", Roma (Italy)
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/4768













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Subject: Re: Gadget Labs Quad Card w Csound
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     Im currently using two off these cards (the Wave/4 from Gadget Labs) 
     so I can record from eight channels simultaneously and they work fine. 
      I havent been able to get a SB AWE32 card to work along side two 
     AWE32 cards, but I had no problems using it with only one AWE32.
     (I havent tried using all of the output channels though.)
     
     Nor have I had any conflicts with any other hardware.
     
     I personally think these cards are excellent.  Only problem with them 
     as far as Im concerned is the lack of NT driversm theyve been promised 
     for quite a while.  If theres any one on this list whos also waiting 
     for the NT drivers please hassle them.
     
     _____________________________________________________________________
     Victor Kirk
     Instrumentation Scientist
     Rm B12
     Sensor Evaluation and Development
     The Met.Office
     Beaufort Park
     Wokingham
     Berks.
     UK
     tel:+44(0)1344 855828
     fax:+44(0)1344 855897

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re; Gadget Labs Quad Card w Csound
Author:  ada@skyenet.net at internet
Date:    28/04/98 03:53


 Hello;
     
 Had anyone tried the 4 channel Gadget Labs Card? They said on thier
web it should not conflict with an existing (ISA) ex. SB AWE32 card in the 
system. Seems as though this may be the least expensive way to start
with Quad playback. A friend at work had a PCI SB clone who said the
audio sometimes broke up as his video (PCI) card and clone were competing for 
resources. This quad card (w its own driver) is ISA also w its cache memory. 
Seems to me this would be a better approach than 2 SB cards set to diff 
address and int.
     
 Andy











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From: Richard Dobson 
Organization: Composers Desktop project
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Can we have an answer to the BIG question: will it accept a 4-channel WAV (or
AIFF) file?


Richard Dobson

A. Archias wrote:

>  Hello;
>
>  Had anyone tried the 4 channel Gadget Labs Card? They said on thier
> web it should not conflict with an existing (ISA) ex. SB AWE32 card in the
> system. Seems as though this may be the least expensive way to start
> with Quad playback. A friend at work had a PCI SB clone who said the
> audio sometimes broke up as his video (PCI) card and clone were competing for
> resources. This quad card (w its own driver) is ISA also w its cache memory.
> Seems to me this would be a better approach than 2 SB cards set to diff
> address and int.
>
>  Andy














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From: Richard Dobson 
Organization: Composers Desktop project
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To: Larry Troxler 
Cc: Michael Gogins , 
    Csound mailing list 
Subject: Re: More on floats in Midi
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I can't follow the logic of these ideas. The string "2.67" is 5 bytes long
(including the null byte), so it is already longer than the four-byte float - the
latter is a ~much~ more compact representation than ASCII!

As for idea of 16bits being OK, that may be true for any one number taken in
isolation, but one starts to lose precision very quickly whan doing arithmetic
involving multiplication or division. Floating-point numbers have normalisation
built into the format, but integers don't - you would have to define some
arbitrary semi-fixed-point format to get around the problem, which would be less
efficient than using standard floats anyway.

Part of the problem with MIDI is that the data word is 7bits, not eight (the MSB
gives the MIDI status); hence the double-precision pitchbend messages, etc, are
14bits, not 16. So, for compatibility, the size of a putative large MIDI word
would, for efficiency,  have to be a multiple of 7.  Since ASCII is also a 7bit
format, transmission is in principle compatible with MIDI; you would probably need
to define some new Universal System
Excusive format.

On the other hand, if a new format is being invented, what is to stop ~both~ text
~and~ f/p formats being incorporated?


Richard Dobson



Larry Troxler wrote:

> Michael Gogins wrote:
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nathan Day 
> > To: Csound mailing list 
> > Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 6:12 AM
> > Subject: More on floats in Midi
> >
> > >Simple 16 bit integers would allow you to divide 10 octaves into interval
> > >of 0.183105 cents, and a dynamic range of 130 dB into intervals 0.00198364
> > >dB, do we really need 32 bit floats or even floats at all.
> >
> > Engineering of all sorts in general, and music engineering in particular,
> > has repeatedly found with pain and suffering that numbers deemed too precise
> > or too big to start with are nothing like big enough in the end.
> >
>
> What's all this talk about 32 bit floats,etc ? Maybe I'm missing the
> obvious, but wouldn't some hypothetical future networked MIDI
> replacement transmit messages in ASCII and not binary? IOW, wouldn't you
> want to transmit a value of 2.67 as the ASCII string "2.67"? What
> argument could you make for transmitting binrary floats instead? Please
> don't say because ASCII takes more bandwidth and processing time to
> decode - I sincerely doubt that this would be the limiting factor!
>
> Or perhaps you *don't* want to be able to telnet to a synthesizer that
> implements this hypothetical protocal, and be able to type in simple
> test messages. Or be able to write simple filters using pipes and perl,
> etc.
>
> Larry
>
>
> --  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --














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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:09:18 +0100
From: Jamie Bullock 
Subject: Re: Gadget Labs Quad Card w Csound
To: vkirk@meto.gov.uk
Cc: Csound List 
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-----Original Message-----
From: vkirk@meto.gov.uk 
To: ada@skyenet.net ; csound@maths.ex.ac.uk

Date: 28 April 1998 09:59
Subject: Re: Gadget Labs Quad Card w Csound


>
>     Im currently using two off these cards (the Wave/4 from Gadget Labs)
>     so I can record from eight channels simultaneously and they work fine.
>      I havent been able to get a SB AWE32 card to work along side two
>     AWE32 cards, but I had no problems using it with only one AWE32.
>     (I havent tried using all of the output channels though.)
>
>     Nor have I had any conflicts with any other hardware.
>
>     I personally think these cards are excellent.  Only problem with them
>     as far as Im concerned is the lack of NT driversm theyve been promised
>     for quite a while.  If theres any one on this list whos also waiting
>     for the NT drivers please hassle them.

What software are people using to address different outputs individually? I
currently use a four channel sound card (Terratec EWS64), but the closest I
can get to four channel output, is taking a Stereo soundfile, and
'diffusing' it amongst the four outs - ie not really true quad.  Eight
channels recorded seperately - what SOFTWARE do you use?

JamieB