| On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Campbell Andrew wrote:
> This is a bit of the subject, but does anybody have the current address
> and telephone number for the Composers Desktop Project in York
> (England!)?
Sorry, can't help with the address, but could someone tell me a little
bit about CDP, I had a vague encounter with it a couple of years ago but
not enough to really see what it's all about. Mail privately if you
think this is TOO off-topic.
Thanx.
Matt.
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>
>>because I don't know the basics of Csound. I
>>know how to use Virtual Waves because I know what it can do and I
>>understand it, but Csound is entirely unknown to me. Apparently it
>>generates the sound and the melody together, right? If there is a
>>walkthrough available on the web (one that doesn't jump in directly to the
>>orchestra commands), point me to it please. If anyone has the time, please
>>e-mail me privately.
>
One book that all newbies should probably get a copy of is F. R. Moore's
"Elements of Computer Music", and/or Charles Dodge's "Computer Music".
These books take you through some of the basic assumptions of the "acoustic
compiler" style of computer music, introduce the concepts of things like
Phase Vocoding and Linear Prediction, and in general give an idea of why
all the hassle associated with this kind of computer music making is worth
it.
Of course if you're near Stanford or Princeton you should also consider
taking courses that they offer. NYU is also offering courses I think.
Csound is a tool and an instrument, not just a point-and-click product.
Like other instruments it requires study and preferably a real live
teacher, with examples and etudes.
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In-Reply-To: <11547569DCACCF11AD1A00001C40056A21C390@exch1.rhbnc.ac.uk> (message from Campbell Andrew on Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:08:34 -0000)
Subject: Re: [off topic] CDP
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 14:47:03 GMT
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Try archer@pact.srf.ac.uk
Archer has moved to Trowbridge or somewhere close. I probably have
his address somewhere, but not to hand. If that e-mail fails, try one
of (in this order?) rwd@pact.srf.ac.uk masrwd@bath.ac.uk or
0117-970-7185
==John ff
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Subject: Re: Advice: Default sr/kr/ksmps
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On 19 Mar 97 at 16:09, jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
> Would there be great objections if I changed the defaults? If no
No.
> objections, what do you think would be sensible defaults?
I think 44100 is the best default value for sample rate, since it
seems to be most used. And maybe kr=4410 ksmps=10.
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:46:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
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Subject: Re: Advice: Default sr/kr/ksmps
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this reminds me of this line in otran() in otran.c:
if ((float)fabs((((double)tran_sr/(double)tran_kr) - (double)tran_ksmps))
> (float).0001)
i never figured out where .0001 came from, unless it was 1/DFLT_SR!???!?!?
> there is a default of 100000/1000/10 for these three values. These
^^^^^^
you mean 10000 right?
-matt
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:46:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
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Subject: Re: Advice: Default sr/kr/ksmps
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this reminds me of this line in otran() in otran.c:
if ((float)fabs((((double)tran_sr/(double)tran_kr) - (double)tran_ksmps))
> (float).0001)
i never figured out where .0001 came from, unless it was 1/DFLT_SR!???!?!?
> there is a default of 100000/1000/10 for these three values. These
^^^^^^
you mean 10000 right?
-matt
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From: Grant Chu Covell
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Subject: Help with ihold & neg p3 values??
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I'm finding the manual very obtuse in its handling of ihold, turnoff,
negative p3 values in .sco., tival and tigoto.
Would anyone have any working samples/examples they could share?
Thanks,
Grant
gcc@kodak.com
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:25:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
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Subject: float kr===/Default sr/kr/ksmps
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sorry for this:
but i guess what i coming to is that maybe, while you are changing the
default sr/kr/ksmps, John, you could take a look at some of this ksmps
calculation code(in otran() and elsewhere?) -- if there needs some
clean-up/fixes.
and this makes me bring up the whole fractional kr debate again.
Maybe my limited knowledge of csound internals is, indeed, too limited,
but would it be possible to require only ksmps be an integer, then kr
could be a flt-pt? there are a bunch of calculations in ugens and things
that use kr(ekr) - but could they be rounded to the closest int, or just
remain float, or have ekr be "interpolated" - rounding to the closest int
throughout the generation? (yuck! maybe i just talked myself out of this
idea)
> if ((float)fabs((((double)tran_sr/(double)tran_kr) - (double)tran_ksmps))
> > (float).0001)
>
> i never figured out where .0001 came from, unless it was 1/DFLT_SR!???!?!?
ok, now thinking about it, .0001 has nothing to do with DFLT_SR, but it
still doesn't make sense to me:
if(calculated_ksmps differs by >.0001 of given_ksmps)
synterr();
else (just make ksmps = calculated_ksmps);
then i don't even see where ksmps is changed (only the static
tran_ksmps)
and of course why '.0001' ?
-matt
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From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
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Subject: float kr===/Default sr/kr/ksmps
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sorry for this:
but i guess what i coming to is that maybe, while you are changing the
default sr/kr/ksmps, John, you could take a look at some of this ksmps
calculation code(in otran() and elsewhere?) -- if there needs some
clean-up/fixes.
and this makes me bring up the whole fractional kr debate again.
Maybe my limited knowledge of csound internals is, indeed, too limited,
but would it be possible to require only ksmps be an integer, then kr
could be a flt-pt? there are a bunch of calculations in ugens and things
that use kr(ekr) - but could they be rounded to the closest int, or just
remain float, or have ekr be "interpolated" - rounding to the closest int
throughout the generation? (yuck! maybe i just talked myself out of this
idea)
> if ((float)fabs((((double)tran_sr/(double)tran_kr) - (double)tran_ksmps))
> > (float).0001)
>
> i never figured out where .0001 came from, unless it was 1/DFLT_SR!???!?!?
ok, now thinking about it, .0001 has nothing to do with DFLT_SR, but it
still doesn't make sense to me:
if(calculated_ksmps differs by >.0001 of given_ksmps)
synterr();
else (just make ksmps = calculated_ksmps);
then i don't even see where ksmps is changed (only the static
tran_ksmps)
and of course why '.0001' ?
-matt
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:58:02 +0000
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Richard Wentk
Subject: Re: MIDI is evil? You've got to be kidding!
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>Richard Wentk writes:
>
>> Csound is supposed to be flexible. But consider how easy it is to use a
>> MIDI sequencer to put a score together instead of typing it in line by
line.
>>
>Of course it is easier to do certain things with a MIDI sequencer--because
that
>is a much more specialized software environment, which makes some tasks much
>easier by limiting the set of tasks that are possible.
And the Csound score system doesn't limit the tasks that are possible? It
certainly makes it *extremely* hard to compose conventional music, if
you're that way inclined, even compared to the rather tedious (but
effective) business of notating it traditionally. You can argue that that's
not what it's for - but then how general is it really?
The point is that the list of ideas that you can't realise with the current
score+orc opcodes (or can realise only with extreme and torturous
difficulty) is actually very long indeed. This is not a good definition of
either expressiveness or generality.
>With all due respect--duh! Whether you compose with major scales, minor
scales,
>whole-tone scales, twelve-tone rows, octatonic scales, power chords, or
>whatever, this does not, on the whole, seem to make for interesting
>music. (Although as an intellectual exercise, akin to solving chess
>problems, it may have its attractions.) Systems and techniques do not make
>interesting music; composers do.
My point exactly. Algorithmic composition *relies* on systems and
techniques. That's its sum total. 'Interesting' music relies on a much more
interactive and responsive process. And any music system that uses a
software metaphor is going to be procedural, and hence algorithmic, and
hence rather rigid.
Until now almost all music has been composed by a combination of ad hoc
rules and interactivity. Csound sets the rules in concrete and throws away
the interactivity almost completely. *IF* you're happy with a purely
algorthmic approach then it's fine. If you want to shape your music in a
more expressive way then it remains a blunt instrument.
The table system is a good example. There's no good reason why it shouldn't
be able to create tables on the fly. If you're interested in creating rich
sounds, this small shortcoming actually means that again there's a long
list of things you can't do.
The same is true of many of the other features. Pvoc complains if you try
to transpose it more than an octave or two. The LPC ugens have only just
been tweaked into useability. And it's only in the last couple of releases
that you can finally (hurrah!) do things like timestretch a sample and
start playback from any point - features which have been standard on MIDI
samplers for around a decade now. (And kudos to those who made this
possible in Csound - you have my eternal gratitude.)
Again, the generality turns out to be rather less than complete in practice.
>[does it?] Probably for the same reason that so much MIDI-made music
sounds so
>similar. Or be-bop. Or integral serialism. or....
Hardly. Someone with a decent MIDI studio and reasonable programming skills
can turn out reasonable sounding classical music, or jazz, or rap, or folk,
atonal or non-equal tempered music, or whatever takes your fancy. I know,
because this is one the things people pay me to do. (Sometimes I don't even
quantise, work to a fixed tempo or use repeating blocks. Novel, huh?)
Never mind something like MAX, which does all kinds of fun stuff with MIDI
music that nothing else does. And hey - some sequencers even include a
programming environment, so you can design and implement your own processes
and event creation systems.
>Everybody's for making csound as powerful and easy to use as possible. (And
>many thanks to those with more programming skill than I who are continually
>working on that.) But you seem to want to see csound move in a direction
that
>would destroy the very thing that makes it useful: it's ability to do things
>that commercial environments can't. MIDI already does MIDI resonably
well; why
>should csound try to do the same?
Where did I suggest that? What I actually suggested was that there are
certain things in Csound - specific sound generation and intelligent
control structures - which are very badly in need of updating.
I already have a MIDI system, and I don't need another one. What I *would*
like is a computer music tool that lets me realise my musical ideas without
fighting me every step of the way, saying either 'you can't do that', or
'you can only do that if you spend two days figuring out how to find a
workaround for the deficiencies, and probably with the help of a home brew
code generator to write the files you're going to need.'
Hell, I'll do the above and more if I have to, if it's the only way to get
what I want. But I'm not going to be too taken with claims about generality
if this wastes my time AND makes certain simple ideas impossible to implement.
>As far as moving from playing with sounds to making interesting music,
that's
>always been the crux of composing, in csound or any other way.
Absolutely. And the drift of all musical development has been towards
enhanced expressiveness. Which implies an honest look at the shortcomings
of any musical tool, together with an interest in improving it.
R.
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:58:19 +0000
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Richard Wentk
Subject: Re: Advice: Default sr/kr/ksmps
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At 16:09 19/03/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Would there be great objections if I changed the defaults? If no
>objections, what do you think would be sensible defaults?
>While I was at it I would arrange that one only needs to give values
>to two of these as I suggested way back in October.
I vote for sr=44100 and ksmps=10, for the entirely mercenary reason that
it's what I use most of the time.
Is there a default for nchnls as well? Is that worth including/changing?
R.
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: New language, new developments
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 17:55:58 -0500
From: Eric Scheirer
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Greetings to all,
I'm a PhD student under Barry Vercoe at the Media Lab and a long-time
lurker on this list. I'd like to give some details on recent developments
from MIT regarding structured audio and music composition languages.
Some of you have read and given feedback on our ICMC paper from last
year regarding Netsound, which was a "wrapper" allowing Csound orchestras
and scores to be transmitted via the Internet as a MIME type. There
has been great interest in this idea, if not the particular Csound
implementation, by many of the correspondants.
I have been working very hard for the last few months designing, with
Prof. Vercoe's help, a completely new "Music N" language which I imagine to
be the logical successor in this illustrious line of sound tools.
We have proposed this language to the MPEG consortium and have had it
written into the current draft of the upcoming MPEG-4 standard,
which now has a large "synthetic object coding" section. That is,
as well as using MPEG to transmit "natural audio" sounds like
speech, the speech can be accompanied by, synchronized with, and/or
post-processed by synthetic sound and music objects written in this new
language and delivered as part of the MPEG bitstream.
Previous versions of MPEG have been widely accepted in industry,
not just on the Internet, but especially in satellite broadcast
and other wide-casting applications, and we see no reason for
MPEG-4 to be any different.
We feel that this move -- including a well-designed, high-capability music
language in a widely-used international standard -- is a very good one for
the long-term "Csound community" for several reasons:
* as numerous recent discussions on this list have indicated, the
code base and language design of Csound could use an overhaul
* having the language standardized independantly from any particular
implementation means improvements and new implementations can
aim at a fixed target
* if content providers start wanting to ship sound content in
synthetic formats, the sound design skills of Csound experts become
a high-demand commodity
* those people who have donated their time for free over the years
to understanding and modifying the innards of Csound may become a
valuable resource to companies implementing the new language
* an open, fixed standard means many competing implementations on
many different architectures, which should result in higher-
performance implementations for everyone to use
On the other hand, development and support for Csound will, at least
in the near-term, continue as it always has.
The new language system as specified in the current MPEG-4 draft has
several components:
* A new orchestra syntax, called SAOL for "structured audio
orchestra language". This language is based on Music-N concepts,
but has been completely redesigned from the ground up, including:
- A block-structured C-like syntax built around names rather
than numbers
- User-defined opcodes built into the language
- A bus/send/return metaphor for complex effects processing
control and dynamic specification
- Some new opcodes, including FFT/IFFT
- Pruning of some old opcodes
A commented example of a SAOL orchestra follows at the end
of the message.
* A score file syntax, which is more-or-less like the Csound score
* A JAVA interface for specification of real-time interactive applications
in a platform-independent way, including MIDI control and interaction
API interfaces. You will be able to write "interactive music
applications" in JAVA, bundle them with an SAOL orchestra and score files,
and distribute the whole package on the web for platform-independant
use.
The draft language standard is available from my web site at
http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds/mpeg4/ in Microsoft Word
for Windows and plain-ASCII formats. If you don't have web
access and would like a plain-ASCII version, I can email it to
you, but it's very long (nearly 100 pages in Word format).
We are very interested in comments and feedback from the Csound
community on the language while the standard is still being revised.
There are still many "bugs" in the language I'm aware of, and I
know how to patch some of them, but I'd like to have as many opinions
as possible. There are relatively few experts in musical sound
synthesis within the MPEG community, so they won't be providing
very much feedback to us, and we hope that interested people from
the Csound community will take the time to help us instead.
Feedback on the draft standard can be sent to me at eds@media.mit.edu;
please right now only make comments on the current draft. I probably
won't respond to questions like "is feature X included?"; that's what
the document is for. However, if you've read the draft and think
some other feature should be included, or especially if you think
something is broken as it's included now, I'd be happy to hear your
thoughts. The current draft won't become the standard for another
year and a half, so there's plenty of time to make your opinion
heard.
As of right now, there are no running implementations of the MPEG
Structured Audio system. I'm working very hard on building a "test
implementation" for Unix boxes, and it may be done in a few weeks, but
it likely won't be optimized enough to be suitable for doing much
in real-time; this implementation is only to test the language as
part of the drafting process. This source code will be released
into the public domain when it's ready.
I'm also starting up a mailing list for people who are interested in
discussing "how to implement" SAOL and the MPEG Structured Audio
system, or related tasks like building authoring tools; please send
email to saol-dev-request@media.mit.edu to be added.
Thanks for your time, and best music-making!
-- Eric
--------------- example orchestra: testbus.saol ------------
// this orchestra implements a simple enveloped oscillator, and
// uses the "bus/send" mechanism of SAOL to make the overall
// output clip when it crosses a certain threshhold.
global {
// define global parameters
srate 22050;
krate 441;
// specify a global wavetable
table t(harm,2048,1,1,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,.5,0,.5,0,.2);
// route all the output from the 'test_instr' notes onto the
// bus called "clip_bus". This means 'test_instr' output doesn't
// make sound, but gets routed onto the bus for further processing.
route(clip_bus, test_instr);
// send the "clip_bus" to the instrument called "clip"
send(clip; 0.25 ;clip_bus);
}
instr test_instr(cfreq,amp,p3) {
// define variables
asig vibfreq,a;
ksig env;
// use a global wavetable
imports table t;
// and also a local one
table vib(harm,128,1);
// note that signal variables are typed by rate
ivar foo;
// call a user-defined opcode
foo = scale_table(t,0.9);
// opcodes embed in expressions
vibfreq = cpsmidi(cfreq) * (oscil(vib,5,-1)*0.01 + 1);
// two more UDOs
a = my_osc(t,vibfreq,amp);
// "dur" is a _standard name_ -- it's always available
env = kadsr(dur * 0.05, 1, dur * 0.15, .6, dur * 0.2, dur * 0.6);
// make sound
// but doesn't really make sound since the instrument has been
// globally rerouted
output(a * env);
}
aopcode my_osc(table t,xsig freq, ivar amp) {
// this is a user-declared opcode; it implements
// an oscillator which runs forever at a given amplitude
asig res;
// use the core opcode "oscil"
res = oscil(t,freq,-1) * amp;
return(res);
}
kopcode kadsr(ivar at,ivar height,ivar dt, ivar sus, ivar st, ivar rt) {
// note that UDOs are also typed by rate
ksig env;
// use the core opcode "kline"
env = kline(0,at,height,dt,sus,st,sus,rt,0);
return(env);
}
instr clip(clippoint) {
// this instrument is used for the global send.
// its output really goes to make sound
asig a;
// another local wavetable -- built on pfield expressions.
table cliptable(lineseg,2048,0,-clippoint,1024 - clippoint*1024,
-clippoint,1024+clippoint*1024,clippoint,2047,clippoint);
// if-then-else constructions
if (abs(input) >= 1) {
a = 2047;
}
else {
// 'input' is a standard name.
a = input * 1024 + 1024;
}
// tableread is a core opcode
output(tableread(cliptable,a));
}
iopcode scale_table(table t, ivar scale) {
// this opcode modifies its 't' parameter (all parameters are
// call-by-reference whenever possible), to scale the table to
// a specific height.
// note that it runs only in i-time since it's an 'iopcode'
ivar i,max,foo;
i=0; max = 0;
// while construction //
while (i < ftlen(t)) {
if (tableread(t,i) > max) {
max = tableread(t,i);
}
i = i+1;
}
if (max != scale) {
i=0;
while (i
| 617 253 0112 | Dmaj7 | Ab-7 Db7 | Gbmaj7 | G-7 C7 |
+-------------------+
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:49:34 -0500
From: Jean Piche
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To: Richard Wentk
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Subject: Re: MIDI is evil? You've got to be kidding!
References: <3.0.32.19970320163951.006981e4@sdps.demon.co.uk>
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Richard,
Perhaps you ought to be a bit more nuanced in your approach to this
business. Specially when it comes to what you consider to be expressive,
musically and otherwise. There are many composers on this list who are
involved in things you seem to have no interest in and little knowledge
of. If you dont like Csound, dont use it. And, no, Csound is not going
to change radically. Its too big a job and it is not worth it. As it is,
*many* composers use it on a daily basis and are quite happy to have it
(I have used nothing else in the past five years). As far as I know, and
I have been on this list since one of my students started it, noboby has
ever claimed that Csound is completely general. It is not. It is an
audio processing system first and foremost. Traditional music scoring is
not one of its strengths.
Now, if you believe that timestretching a sample on an Akai sampler
gives you a better result than using a little imagination with table
procedures or any number of frequency-domain procedures, then you should
do just that. Csound (or CLM or SuperCollider or CMIX or other
non-commercial software) is not meant for the 5-minute attention span.
Please do not consider your personal views as the only ones that matter.
If you are so passionate on improving Csound, lets see the work you have
done towards that. Whinning does not count.
--
________________________________________________________
Jean Piche
Universite de Montreal
http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~pichej
http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/Org/CompoElectro/CEC/
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:58:13 +0000
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Richard Wentk
Subject: Re: [off topic] CDP
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At 10:08 20/03/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>This is a bit of the subject, but does anybody have the current address
>and telephone number for the Composers Desktop Project in York
>(England!)?
>
>I understand that it has moved and their phone is now dead.
>
CDP address:
12 Goodwood Way
Cepen Park South
Chippenham
Wiltshire SN14 0SY
CDP phone:
Try the one at PACT that John Ffitch mentioned first, otherwise 01249 461361
CDP info:
It's a suite of small command line programs that do various things, thusly:
GROUCHO - assorted signal processing. If you have Cool Edit on the PC you
probably won't need a lot of these fucntions, at least from the point of
view of general utilities. But there are some interesting granulation,
brassage and distortion progs to play with.
SPECTRAL SUITE - various programs that work with files generated by the
CDPs's version of PVOC. You can stretch spectra, blur them, tune them to a
fixed frequency, cross-synthesise, interpolate, and so on. You can do a lot
of this in Csound now with the new pvoc related opcodes and a stack of sine
oscillators. But the CDP version doesn't load the entire analysis file into
memory in one go, which makes it possible to work with much longer files.
And the options are more complex.
CSOUND EXTENSIONS - a small collection of utilities. Includes score
processing (add, remove, and scale columns in a score), granular synthesis
(a bit redundant now with grain), REMIX (motif editing and generation, and
more - way too complicated to describe here), and WEDGE (big chunky scores
with diverging textures.)
If you ask Archer (Endrich) nicely and promise not to tell anyone, you can
get hold of the source code for these and modify them yourself. It's
supposed to be a collaborative effort, so any changes you make will be
incorporated in the package.
The whole system is about to be revised and redesigned with better
integration between its different parts, but it's too early to worry much
about what it will turn into once that's done. The standard system has
plenty to play with now.
Hope that helps,
R.
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:15:59 +0100
From: rasmus ekman
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Subject: Re: sr/kr/ksmps: 44100/4410/10 seconded
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my vote.
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:58:08 +0000
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Richard Wentk
Subject: Re: Csound language
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At 08:15 19/03/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Try generating a random burst of notes with an
>exponentially decreasing density within a given
>moving range of pitch and tone color by using a
>MIDI sequencer. Even if it could be done, could
>it be created again and again with simple commands,
>using different exponents for decay, and different
>pitch ranges etc...?
Actually it wouldn't be hard at all. The reason is that this really isn't a
fair comparison. A MIDI sequencer is analogous to Csound's score system,
and it's only very slightly more difficult to write C code to generate a
MIDI file than it is to write a score file. Once you use extra software
there's not a lot you can't do, repeatably or otherwise. And as I mention
in the other email, some sequencers now include a development environment
where you can do whatever you like with MIDI events.
I'm defending MIDI because no one seems to have noticed that if you apply
the same programming skills to MIDI that people seem happy to use with
Csound, you end up with a system that allows you to do an awful lot indeed
rather easily. Put bluntly, it's simply a myth that Csound is general and
MIDI is fixed. Take the time to apply the same hacking skills to both and
the reality is a lot less black and white than that.
But to get back to Csound - how hard would it be to add the following:
1. A-rate loops and conditionals, so for example you can repeat a block of
ugens a fixed number of times, changing parameters slightly each time.
(Obvious uses - building a big stack of individually controlled sine
partials with a few lines of code; analogue oscillator sync and pulse width
modulation; .
2. Read/write a-rate tables. (Wavetable effects; custom variations on
Karplus/Strong; other physical modelling. Doesn't Robin Whittle's code do
this?)
3. Implement a structure where instruments could trigger other instruments,
without relying on a fixed score. (Fun in general.)
We're back to the wish list, I suppose. I won't speak for anyone else of
course, but those options would certainly make my life a lot easier and
more musically satisfying.
R.
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From: Charles Baker
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 15:12:17 -0800
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: sr/kr/ksmps
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Dear list,
44100/4410/10 is the obvious choice for me: I do not care about
"real-time". I recommend that all those who want the default to
be useful for real-time (without external DSP) vote for
22050/2205/10 or even lower.
Of course, as I said, for my personal compositions, real-time
is not a requirement. (I don't compose in 'real-time', either.)
CharlieB
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From: Charles Baker
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 15:12:17 -0800
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: sr/kr/ksmps
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Dear list,
44100/4410/10 is the obvious choice for me: I do not care about
"real-time". I recommend that all those who want the default to
be useful for real-time (without external DSP) vote for
22050/2205/10 or even lower.
Of course, as I said, for my personal compositions, real-time
is not a requirement. (I don't compose in 'real-time', either.)
CharlieB
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From: rasmus ekman
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Composition question for J Piche and others (Was: Re: MIDI is evil?
He's trolling!)
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Jean Piche wrote:
>
> (I have used nothing else [but csound] in the past five years).
Right, but how?
Let's just imagine some people have been trying to find csound useful
for the last, say 2 years, and all but failed. It's clear that several
people use it with score generating tools, and that has clear potential.
In brief, I'd like to know how people who actually feel productive
when using Csound, use Csound. Esp for doing more than a few seconds
of sound using just one or two ugens.
To me the lack of response is completely crippling. I need to hear
what's happening when a variable is tweaked (that's my .2 second
attention span...) - a good Buchla or Serge synth remains my candidate
for #1 post-war music instrument.
Ps. I was very sorry to hear that the xyin is nonfunctional under DOS
- like a good PC slave i was hoping that my next hardware upgrade
would solve all my problems...
regards everyone
r
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From: Charles Baker
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 15:30:44 -0800
To: Richard Wentk
Subject: Re: Csound language
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Richard Wentk wrote:
> Once you use extra software
> there's not a lot you can't do, repeatably or otherwise. And as I
mention
> in the other email, some sequencers now include a development
environment
> where you can do whatever you like with MIDI events.
>
Exactly! Such as MAX. I wonder that fewer on the list have spoken
up about score pre-processing/geberation using other programs. I use
CommonMusic, since I can import MIDI files in and easily generate
Csound note lists out, *after* I carefully twitch the long lists of
parameters I always seem to leave in my instruments. And even
continue to edit these parameters again and again until I get the
desired results.
I also have used/occasionally still use PERL for this: it's truly a
hacker's dream language for twitching data fields (I guess I know:
I make my living that way, currently). If have used Cscore, but I
cannot say I am skilled at it: perhaps if I were I would have
finished my article on note list editing. All these methods require
that the composer learn a computer languge skill. But this does NOT
mean that what results is "algorithmic composition"!!! As I said,
one (meaning me) can start with a MIDI file: even one generated by a
standard notation editor such as Finale. Many of my best sounds
start out as an idea jotted onto standard music staff paper! But to
get to the final result, I ALWAYS edit the note list extensively,
and interactively. I cannot recommend CommonMusic too much for this.
And for those put off by Lisp, please try PERL (after all, it's the
existing standard for CGI, also, and is a "cool tool"
I.M.not-so-humble.O \), and for those c programmers out there:
there's alway cscore...just link in libcscore.a, and away you go,
for both algorithmic composition AND much needed note-list editing.
Much of what people don't like in music produced by Csound and
related ilk can be traced to inadedquately edited note-lists.
(And I include *most* MIDI 'real-time' input in this class:
does your keyboard/sequencer *really* encourage lots of control
codes in the MIDI stream? Do you hook them up to note list
parameters?)
Just my .25 cents, no, make that .50 cents.
CharlieB
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:22:56 -0500
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
From: tolve
Subject: Re: Advice: Default sr/kr/ksmps
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
your ears must have been a raging inferno...
>Message written at 19 Mar 1997 12:56:39 +0000
>
>Browsing the source, as I tend to do when depressed, I noticed that
>there is a default of 100000/1000/10 for these three values. These
>seem rather perverse values when 11025 is the AIFF and Windows number.
meant to ask about those tonight!
>Would there be great objections if I changed the defaults?
nope.
>If no objections, what do you think would be sensible defaults?
i vote 48k. rate i select on my DAT and quite popular among my tribe. but
now my question. is a specific control rate desirable for direct transfer
in digital domain to and/or from DAT machine set at 48k?
>While I was at it I would arrange that one only needs to give values
>to two of these as I suggested way back in October.
>
>==John
off topic addendum: thought that was you i spotted in the launderette 3:45a
on my way out to ives from sis living Earl's Court London '90.
tolve
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:15:14 -0400
To: algo-comp@serial.music.uiowa.edu,
sonicart.demon.co.uk@sonicart.demon.co.uk, msimoni@umich.edu,
icma@umich.edu, Music-Research@comlab.ox.ac.uk, csound@noether.ex.AC.UK,
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lyon@snet.net
From: "Dr. Douglas Lyon"
Subject: Petri Nets in the Arts, SMC 97
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I am orgainizing a special session on Petri Nets in the Arts.
This will be presented in the 1997 IEEE
Conference on Systems, Man, and Cybernetics, held in Orlando, Florida
in October, the Conference Announcement is appended. I would like to
invite you to submit a title and short abstract (<300 words) on
Petri nets and/or discrete event systems in the Arts. If you agree to do
this, please let me know by email. Should you decide to do this please let
me know by return email and send me an abstract by March 30.
I look forward to seeing you in Orlando in October.
Best regards,
Douglas Lyon
---
CALL FOR PAPERS ANNOUNCEMENT
1997 IEEE International Conference on Systems, Man, and Cybernetics
Hyatt Orlando, Orlando, Florida, USA October 12-15, 1997
COMPUTATIONAL CYBERNETICS AND SIMULATION
SMC'97 Secretariat
DSES Department
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
110 8th street
Troy, NY 12180-3590, USA
TEL: 518-273-2822
=46AX: 518-273-2822
E-MAIL: smc97@rpi.edu
INTERNET: http://www.rpi.edu/~smc97
=46OR POSTAL RETURN ONLY: IEEE, 445 Hoes Lane, P.O. Box 1331, Piscataway, NJ
08855- 1331, USA
LOCATION: The SMC'97 Conference will be held October 12-15, 1997 at the
Hyatt Orlando in Orlando, Florida. Located in the heart of Central Florida'=
s
resort district, the Hyatt provides easy access to the Disney theme parks,
and the many other tourist attractions of Central Florida. The Hyatt has a
top rated golf course, a health club, tennis courts, swimming pools,
whirlpools, and restaurants. Plan on an unbeatable room rate of $105.00 per
night, single or double occupancy!
THEME: The conference theme, Computational Cybernetics and Simulation, has
been selected to emphasize the growing importance of computational methods
and modeling tools in the design, analysis and control of complex systems.
Presentations dealing with theoretical perspectives, new computational
tools, new paradigms in simulation, and innovative modeling applications are
encouraged.
PLENARY PRESENTATIONS:
"Toward A Theory of Fuzzy Information Granulation"
Dr. Lotfi A. Zadeh, University of California, Berkeley
"Data Mining and Knowledge Discovery: The New Frontier"
Dr. Gregory Piatetsky-Shapiro, GTE Laboratories Inc.
"Braindance: Simulating Patterns of Behavior"
Dr. John D. Salt, Brunel University
DAILY SCHEDULE: The following program format is planned for Monday
(10/13/97), Tuesday (10/14/97), and Wednesday (10/15/97):
08:45 am - 10:30 am Parallel Sessions
10:30 am - 11:00 am Morning Break
11:00 am - Noon Plenary Presentation
Noon - 01:30 pm Lunch Break
01:30 pm - 03:15 pm Parallel Sessions
03:15 pm - 03:45 pm Afternoon Break
03:45 pm - 05:30 pm Parallel Sessions
SPECIAL EVENTS:
Sunday (10/12/97):
Parallel Tutorials (09:00 am - Noon; 01:00 pm - 04:00 pm)
Early Bird Reception (05:00 pm - 07:00 pm)
SMC AdCom Meeting (07:00 pm - 11:00 pm)
Monday (10/13/97):
Evening at Medieval Times (06:45 pm - 10:45 pm)
Tuesday (10/14/97):
Technical Committee Meetings (05:30 pm - 06:30 pm)
SMC Awards Banquet (07:30 pm - 09:30 pm)
=46AMILY EVENTS: Mindful of the fact that SMC'97 is occurring in the
entertainment capital of the world, the Organizing Committee has taken
several steps to make it a pleasure for the entire family to be at SMC'97.
Hyatt Orlando is a family-oriented facility. A child, aged 10 and under,
eats free at a Hyatt Orlando restaurant if accompanied by an adult. The
Medieval Times will be an unforgettable experience and feast for the entire
family. Other special and discounted family events will be organized in and
around Orlando.
STUDENT EVENTS: Special sessions will be organized for student papers. A
student paper is defined as one in which the primary author(s) of the paper
are degree-seeking students at the time the paper is submitted. An award
will be given to the Best Student Paper that is presented at a student
session. Please indicate on the submitted paper abstract if the paper is to
be presented at a student session and indicate which author(s) are
degree-seeking students. Other special events are also being planned to
accommodate and encourage student attendance.
CALL FOR CONTRIBUTED PAPERS: The Technical Programs Committee solicits
papers for presentation at the conference. All papers will be reviewed by u=
p
to three referees for technical merit and content on the basis of an abstrac=
t
of no more than 300 words. Papers accepted for presentation will appear in
the Conference Proceedings. All abstracts must have a cover page containing
the title of the paper along with the names, affiliations, and complete
mailing addresses of all authors, as well as a rank-ordered list of the thre=
e
designated topic areas (see list) most closely related to the paper. The
cover sheet should list the two-digit number along with the name of each of
the three designated topic areas. All correspondence will be directed to th=
e
first named author unless otherwise indicated. Six pages will be allocated
in the Proceedings for each accepted paper. Papers which exceed this length
will be charged on a $100.00 per page basis. Each paper presentation should
take no more than 20-25 minutes. While paper abstracts can be submitted by
e-mail (smc97@rpi.edu), the full length papers must be submitted in hard
copy, consistent with the guidelines which will be provided to those authors
whose paper abstracts are accepted.
CALL FOR INVITED SESSIONS/TRACKS: Invited sessions (each comprised of 4-5
papers) and invited tracks (each comprised of at least 2 sessions) are
solicited in all topic areas. Survey papers, case studies, or panel
discussions could also form the basis of invited sessions. Each prospective
session/track organizer must submit a proposal, including the title of the
session/track, a rank-ordered list of the three topic areas most closely
related to the session/track, and a list of authors with paper titles and
abstracts.
CALL FOR EXHIBITORS: Leading publishers and vendors of computational
cybernetics and simulation material are encouraged to exhibit their products=
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:22:56 -0500
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
From: tolve
Subject: Re: Advice: Default sr/kr/ksmps
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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your ears must have been a raging inferno...
>Message written at 19 Mar 1997 12:56:39 +0000
>
>Browsing the source, as I tend to do when depressed, I noticed that
>there is a default of 100000/1000/10 for these three values. These
>seem rather perverse values when 11025 is the AIFF and Windows number.
meant to ask about those tonight!
>Would there be great objections if I changed the defaults?
nope.
>If no objections, what do you think would be sensible defaults?
i vote 48k. rate i select on my DAT and quite popular among my tribe. but
now my question. is a specific control rate desirable for direct transfer
in digital domain to and/or from DAT machine set at 48k?
>While I was at it I would arrange that one only needs to give values
>to two of these as I suggested way back in October.
>
>==John
off topic addendum: thought that was you i spotted in the launderette 3:45a
on my way out to ives from sis living Earl's Court London '90.
tolve
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:25:35 -0500
From: Jean Piche
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To: rasmus ekman
Cc: csound
Subject: Re: Composition question for J Piche and others (Was: Re: MIDI is
evil? He's trolling!)
References: <3.0.32.19970320163951.006981e4@sdps.demon.co.uk> <3331B0EE.52BF@ere.umontreal.ca> <3331C5B4.5448@hexagon.se>
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rasmus ekman wrote:
>
> (I have used nothing else [but csound] in the past five years).
>
> Right, but how?
> Let's just imagine some people have been trying to find csound useful
> for the last, say 2 years, and all but failed. It's clear that several
> people use it with score generating tools, and that has clear potential.
I do sound-oriented composition, ie: along the lines of musique concrete
and/or classical electronic music. I use Csound in the Cecilia wrapper
almost exclusively. I have a set of general purpose modules that I can
use and re-use on any sound material. I code new modules as the need
arises. Csound under Cecilia is not only *highly* productive, it has
answered the perenial "upgrade-to-a-new-synth" syndrome of most
production setups in the professional and academic worlds.
I use Csound as an open-ended modular synthesizer/processor. I make
sounds with it. While I have done complete compositions with it, I dont
do that often. I rely on a good sound mixing program to elaborate
compositions. As a setup, it depends on no specialized hardware, is
almost entirely open-ended, is conceptualy clean and ideally suited to
the kind of work I do.
Should I need to do scores for a given piece, I use Cybil, my own score
generator written in tcl that does most of what I want to do. I also use
Common music (a delight btw!). And when push comes to shove, I go to
MIDI.
Csound without a wrapper is quite unweildy and stubborn. That is not a
function of the language itself. CLM is very difficult also and Cmix
even more. The point however is that, like all difficult things,
practice makes good and one can acheive virtuosity. Signal processing
theory is complex and requires patience and knowledge, rare commodities
in a product-driven musical environment.
Pre-conditions to find the Csound experience enjoyable:
1- Wanting to do music that is appropriate for the system.
2- A very fast computer.
3- A good wrapper with graphical and real-time controllers (Cecilia has
both).
4- A good score generator/processor. (there are many...).
5- A good sound mixing program (mix, deck, etc).
6- An enquiring state of mind.
7- Patience and flexible production deadlines.
A miss on more than 2 of the above means Csound is not for you. In fact,
most people will fails on the first condition.
--
________________________________________________________
Jean Piche
Universite de Montreal
http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~pichej
http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/Org/CompoElectro/CEC/
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:47:27 -0500
To: Richard Wentk
From: tolve
Subject: Re: MIDI is evil? You've got to be kidding!
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Richard Wentk writes:
>Until now almost all music has been composed by a combination of ad hoc
>rules and interactivity. Csound sets the rules in concrete and throws away
>the interactivity almost completely. *IF* you're happy with a purely
>algorthmic approach then it's fine. If you want to shape your music in a
>more expressive way then it remains a blunt instrument.
algo who?
>Never mind something like MAX,
but still room in my toolbox. where can i find?
t'a'x,
tolve
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:32:50 -0500
From: Jean Piche
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To: csound
Subject: Re: sr/kr/ksmps
References: <3331B71F.2525@hexagon.se> <199703202312.PAA18330@sunspot.filoli.com>
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Charles Baker wrote:
>
> Dear list,
> 44100/4410/10 is the obvious choice for me: I do not care about
> "real-time". I recommend that all those who want the default to
> be useful for real-time (without external DSP) vote for
> 22050/2205/10 or even lower.
Ditto. Although I find 44100/441/100 useful for real-time; Seems the
krate drop liberates a lot of my cpu.
--
________________________________________________________
Jean Piche
Universite de Montreal
http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~pichej
http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/Org/CompoElectro/CEC/
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:18:41 -0500
From: Jean Piche
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Subject: [ANNOUNCE] - Cecilia for Linux
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Come and get it.
ftp://ftp.musique.umontreal.ca/pub/sgi/cecLINUX1.75.tar.gz
CAVEATS:
YOU MUST HAVE TCL7.5/TK4.2 installed and running.
I do not have access to a PC to test this. Dave Phillips is the person
to thank for testing and suggestions. Thanks Dave!
THIS IS AN EARLY BETA. SOME THINGS WILL NOT WORK (ie: the Transpose and
Normalize functions under Utilities).
Bugs to me please, but please take the time to study the
examples/modules and the documentation.
Enjoy!
--
________________________________________________________
Jean Piche
Universite de Montreal
http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~pichej
http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/Org/CompoElectro/CEC/
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From: Jean Piche
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To: Toby
Cc: csound
Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] - Cecilia for Linux
References: <3331E1F1.41C6@ere.umontreal.ca> <33320A4B.5D94A8BD@rcsreg.com>
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Toby wrote:
>
the ./bin and ./FTR directories of the Linux distribution are empty.
This is normal. The executable is called xcec and lives in the ./dev
directory.
--
________________________________________________________
Jean Piche
Universite de Montreal
http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~pichej
http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/Org/CompoElectro/CEC/
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To: Csound Mailing List
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From: Hans Mikelson
Subject: Spirograph Instrument
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 23:40:03 PST
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Hi all,
This instrument defines the path traced by a point on a circle
rotating inside of another circle. This produces curves like
those produced by the Spirograph game. I added some frequency
effects to make it more interesting. It sounds a lot like simple
additive (and probably reduces to that) but the derivation is
different.
Hans Mikelson
;****************************************************************
; Instrument Section
sr=44100
kr=4410
ksmps=10
nchnls=2
instr 1 ; Hypocycloid or Spirograph Curve
; This set of parametric equations defines the path traced
; by a point on a circle of radius B rotating inside a
; circle of radius A.
;kphi init 0
ifqc = cpspch(p5) ; root frequency
ia = p6 ; radius A
ib = p7 ; radius B
; Amp envelope
kampenv linseg 0, .1, p4, p3-.2, p4, .1, 0 ; Amp envelope
kptchenv linseg .1, .2*p3, 1, .8*p3, 1 ; Pitch envelope
kvibenv linseg 0, .3*p3, 0, .2*p3, 1, .5*p3, 1 ; Vibrato envelope
kvibr oscil 20, 8, 1 ; Vibrato
kfqc = ifqc*kptchenv+kvibr*kvibenv ; Frequency
; X equation
acos1 oscil ia-ib, kfqc, 1, .25
acos2 oscil ib, (ia-ib)/ib*kfqc, 1, .25
ax = acos1 + acos2
; Y equation
asin1 oscil ia-ib, kfqc, 1
asin2 oscil ib, (ia-ib)/ib*kfqc, 1
ay = asin1 - asin2
outs kampenv*ax, kampenv*ay
endin
;**************************************************************
; Score
f1 0 8192 10 1
t 0 100
; Start Dur Amp Frqc A B
i3 0 6 1000 8.00 10 2
i3 4 4 1500 7.11 5.6 .4
i3 + 4 2000 8.05 2 8.5
i3 . 2 4000 8.02 4 5
i3 . 2 4000 8.02 5 .5
| | | \ | / Hans P. Mikelson
| __ | __/ | \ | hljmm@discover-net.net
|__ |__ |__ |__ \_ |__ http://discover-net.net/~hljmm/
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:26:35 -0900
From: Matt Comeione
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Does anyone know the limit of line segments per line in a Csound orc? I
am trying to utilize the heterodyne analysis files to function as the
pitch and volume envelopes for sampled wave forms.
Also, I was wondering on the limitations in regards to the maximum
amount of function tables allowed in a csound score file.
any input would be greatly appreciated...
Thanks.
Matt Comeione
comeione@earthlink.net
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From: Cristobal Mendoza
To: Csound ML
Subject: New Guy
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:39:56 -0400
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Thanks to everyone that replied. I will be signing off the list for a week
or so, I'm going on a trip and I don't want my mailbox flooded!! Thanks
again, I'll bother you all next month.
Dosvidanya
END
v.0.99
ZMA
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Richard Wentk
Subject: Back to the future
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At 16:49 20/03/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Now, if you believe that timestretching a sample on an Akai sampler
>gives you a better result than using a little imagination with table
>procedures or any number of frequency-domain procedures, then you should
>do just that. Csound (or CLM or SuperCollider or CMIX or other
>non-commercial software) is not meant for the 5-minute attention span.
Jean,
For your information I was attempting to switch between a large number of
l-o-n-g samples, and then time-stretch and/or transpose the resulting chunks.
GEN 01 wouldn't do it because there wasn't room for all the samples in memory.
PVOC was even less suitable for the same reason.
Soundin might have done it, but it didn't have the neccessary features.
(Until very recently.)
In the end I used a copy of Steinberg's Recycle, a MIDI sequencer and a
MIDI file produced with some custom code. That combination, after a fair
bit of tweaking, worked quite nicely.
>Please do not consider your personal views as the only ones that matter.
>If you are so passionate on improving Csound, lets see the work you have
>done towards that. Whinning does not count.
I'll be contributing some new spectral processing routines to the CDP
system later this year. And have been helping them design an elegant and
powerful (at least we all hope it is) user interface for the next version
of the system.
In the meantime it obviously isn't just my own personal opinion that there
are serious shortcomings. Kudos to Eric and Barry and MIT who are
obviously familiar with the standard criticisms, and have come up with some
very exciting proposals to deal with them, and do a lot of fun new stuff
besides.
Perhaps we can move on to getting son-of-Csound right now?
Regards,
R.
|