Regarding the tacit knowledge, the algorithms in the player's hands that
can't be spelled out in all detail...

I can't say I'm good at composing with pencil and paper as most
conservatory-trained composers do, or even by overdubbing tracks as many
songwriters and pop musicians do. This is because (take your pick) either I
don't have the required talent, or I didn't put in the time required to
really learn those methods. Instead I was busy with algorithmic
composition... which I always seemed to be better at than the other kind.
What I have found is:

If I do have compositional talent, it seems to be peculiarly focused around
algorithmic composition.

Composing with algorithms produces music that I do not know how to imagine,
but I feel that I have good enough taste and judgment to select what is good
and reject what is bad, and to polish what is good if there are rough
corners sticking out. To make the point stronger, I believe that the whole
reason to use algorithms is that they do what I can't imagine; if I could
imagine what they would dol, I wouldn't need them.

At the same time, I have a sense of the beauty of the algorithms, or the
mathematics underlying them, that is independent of music, but seems roughly
correlated with the beauty and interest of the music produced by the
algorithms.

The whole business is like having beautiful maps (the mathematics and the
algorithms) that record far more about the world than I know (from my
half-finished musical education), but to get anywhere I have go in and
explore the country (generate lots of stuff), after which it is apparent
where the good spots really are (the sketches or unfinished renderings that
excite my taste); I then take pictures (make finished renderings of the
pieces) making sure to omit telephone poles, angry farmers, etc (edit out
infelicities).

Unlike many computer musicians, I am strongly fascinated by traditional
classical music (3 Bs, etc.), I work almost exclusively in 12-tone equal
temperament, and harmony and large-scale form strike me as being very
important. In spite of (or because of) my weakness in the conservatory
tradition, I am developing transformations and algorithms that work with
scales, chords, progressions (pitch-class sets).



-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Smitherman 
To: Michael Gogins ; Tobiah ;
Csound List 
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: What? Not another environment variable!


>this just arrived as I was writing the below stuff (there is the time
>factor, the time domain in computer music . . the last shall be first,
first
>last . . )
>
>>>Historically, the creation of musical instruments has always been a
>separate action from the composition and (generally)composition a separate
>action from performance and performance separate from recording and
>recording separate from mastering and etc. A new form of music is emerging
>from a joining of all these actions into one. Csound and "computer music"
in
>general facilitates this nicely. This new form involves creating a
recording
>in much the same way an author creates a book or a painter a painting. The
>recording is the art.>>
>
>the recording IS indeed the art.  I revel in this.  I relished your message
>Michael.  I have romance vis all this stuff.  I'm an old man (47) yet young
>in computer music . . I hope.  And when I chanced upon Csound, well  . . .
I
>thought, here is something for all of us.  rock on.  >>>>>>theory ends.
>________________
>
>
>I'm reading M Gogins site (i've kept up with your stuff for several years
>now Michael, thank you for efforts), and his remarks are what led me to yet
>more rant:  (blame HIM HIM!!!):   I have memories, as a young musician, of
>standing in the library at my undergrad U, and reading Hiller's Illiac
>Suite, there, in the rows, looking at these notes put out by computer (no
>kidding, literal memory of reading the notes standing therehmmm m m m  m m
>m )  . . and this memory is from way back, circa '75.  I remember thinking,
>ok, it's notes of music.  it has a syntax. and NO buts.  none.  except:
>well . . .  . . . the guy who wrote the algorithm, Hiller, was in fact the
>guy who wrote the music.  Right??  the soul of the machine is the soul of
>the man (or woman).  If I tell my hands to play certain configurations,
they
>are acting upon an algorithm.  this is of course rot-gut simple, please
bear
>with me . . they are, yet they are not.  simple, algorithms, but my hands
>have knowledge from decades, that my mouth cannot articulate.  hmmm.  I
>sense in myself depths of problems of music, and yet I have no way to
>articulate them, aside from the 'traditional' ways.  I am a trad musician,
>who loves and adores any way you can come at sound and silence.  If I can
be
>of service (I do have fairly decent playing mechanisms) please let me know.
>
>i suppose I need to reinstall yet again, the java files, so I can continue
>to explore M Goggins neewst iterations of Silence.  Jeesus, man, it just
>never stops.  It really doesn't stop, music is never ending.
>
>On a personal note, if I may, I think many of you will understand:  Robert
>Cooper was my friend at LSU, we were both grad students.  both very bald
>(hey rob, i know you know).  He and I jammed together (hey, my real book
was
>copied from his . . ) his enthusiam for all this stuff rubbed off on me, as
>a grad student.  He and I sat together and talked about all this stuff (he
>was particularly interested at the time in tunings beyond 12 TET).  I
>remember him with honor, the classes we shared, the debates we had, the
>music we talked.  We have all of us only a little time.  may we make the
>best of it.
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Michael Gogins wrote:

> Composing with algorithms produces music that I do not know how to imagine,
> but I feel that I have good enough taste and judgment to select what is good
> and reject what is bad, and to polish what is good if there are rough
> corners sticking out. To make the point stronger, I believe that the whole
> reason to use algorithms is that they do what I can't imagine; if I could
> imagine what they would dol, I wouldn't need them.
> 
> At the same time, I have a sense of the beauty of the algorithms, or the
> mathematics underlying them, that is independent of music, but seems roughly
> correlated with the beauty and interest of the music produced by the
> algorithms.

Algorithmic writing is not useful to everyone. In my own case, it came 
after I had once spent hours and hours doing nothing but checking off 
boxes in graph paper to complete a structural idea I was pursuing. 

Now, I have conservatory comp degrees, love Brahms etc, am an active 
performer too (rare for algorithmic composers?), all that. It was simply 
not a great use of my time to check off boxes on graph paper -- it would 
be quicker and more accurate for a computer to do this, leaving me to 
come up with, and try, ideas -- rather than do the clerical work they 
sometimes require.

On the correspondence of mathematical and musical elegance, I have been 
surprised just as often to discover their incompatibility: when the most 
elegant structural ideas turn out to be pretty indifferent musically.

But, since I use a computer, at least I haven't wasted a whole lot of time 
getting there.

Drew Krause










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Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:32:04 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Huber 
Subject: Re: Strange 'tanh' bug on Linux
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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> Thomas, I ran it in X trying each 'out' statement. Ouput appearance and
> sound was the same in both cases. I'm using the unofficial Linux
> distribution 3.54.0.0c.

I just downloaded this unofficial distribution and compiled it
with egcs-2.91.66. For me, the 'tanh' still does not work. Same
spike-output as with the canonical version.

Do you see a difference when setting a low krate (i.e. ksmps=200) ?

If not, it is a problem on my linux box. I suppose it has to do
with the math library. Which libc/libm are you using ?
I have libc.so.5.4.46 and libm.so.5.0.9. I don't think it's
the compiler, as the problem occured with gcc-2.7.2.1 and with
egcs the same way.


Thomas










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References: <199906031332.PAA10626@klee.iamexwi.unibe.ch>
Subject: Re: Strange 'tanh' bug on Linux
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:20:24 -0500
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speaking of boxes, and as a nonpro computing sort, is there a good reason to
compile from the sources on a windows machine?  does it make it live better
on the home machine, in other words??  or is just using the binaries good
enough?? as I said earlier, I get this big bad crash on winsound, at the end
of sound file compilation.  would building my own systems fix that maybe?
what would I need to do a build, the only c compiler I have is 16 bit, I
guess I would need better than that. . .













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Message-ID: <001f01beae3a$3b3640a0$2b99170c@default>
From: Hans Mikelson 
To: Csound 
Subject: Csound Magazine Call for Contributions
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:27:51 -0500
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Hi all,

I'm starting to put together the summer issue of Csound Magazine.  If you
would like to contribute please let me know.  I would greatly appreciate any
help I get.  The more contributions I get the longer I will be able to
publish the 'zine.

Right now I am working on some cover art.  If someone would like to donate
some cover art that would be nice.  I think I may write the beginners column
on envelopes and the effects column on delays although I would welcome
contributions on these.  I could really use help with columns on Internals,
Synthesis, and Real-time.  Any feature articles would also be welcome.

Columns should describe a single instrument or topic.  They need only be
about one page long.  Features should be a little longer and may be on any
Csound related topic.

I always wanted to have a featured composition but so far I have not
received any.  A feature article on composition might be nice if someone
would like to put together some of the thoughts in the recent discussion on
composition into a single article.

Rick Boulanger promised me some disk space on the MIT web site for storing
the back issues and possibly other forms of the magazine, like a PDF version
and a plain text version.  (I hope this will still be possible?)  I would
need help creating the PDF version.

I'll try to put the magazine together by June 15 and will publish the issue
on July 1.

Looking forward to hearing from you,
Hans Mikelson











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Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 12:26:24 -0400
From: Dave Phillips 
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Thomas Huber wrote:

> Do you see a difference when setting a low krate (i.e. ksmps=200) ?

No.
 
> If not, it is a problem on my linux box. I suppose it has to do
> with the math library. Which libc/libm are you using ?
> I have libc.so.5.4.46 and libm.so.5.0.9. I don't think it's
> the compiler, as the problem occured with gcc-2.7.2.1 and with
> egcs the same way.

libc.so.6 and libm.so.6 here, so that might be your problem.

== Dave Phillips

       http://www.bright.net/~dlphilp/index.html
   http://sunsite.univie.ac.at/Linux-soundapp/linux_soundapps.html










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From: Pablo Silva 
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    Csound 
Subject: Off topic: Thanks for your help
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Hello again

Just wanted to thank all of you who took time to answer to my last post
asking for help. It was all very helpful and enlightening.

Pablo Silva










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From: pete moss 
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anyone out there have a palmpilot?  do any music on it?

there is a new list formed dealing with getting sound (and midi) out of
handheld computers (like palmpilot, win ce).

site info is at http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/handheld-music

list info is:

Handheld-music is a forum for discussions pertaining to using and
developing software for handheld devices in order to create music. For
example: MIDI applications for Palm Pilots, Gameboy DIY carts, granular
synthesis on a CE device... and whatever the current technology will
bear. 

pete










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Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:31:50 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Huber 
Subject: Re: Strange 'tanh' bug on Linux
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> as I have it ready (in a few minutes...). (jpff: the problem is in the
> canonical sources in aops.c - a number of 'a' rate routines get called
> with the LIB1 macro - or am I wrong? I changed and tested and it seems
> to work).

Hey Nicola,

I just applied the patch and it works like a charm now !!!!
Cooooooool, thanks !


Thomas