Re: percussive designs (and the files for marimba/agogobel?)

Date	1998-02-13 11:39
From	rasmus ekman
Subject	Re: percussive designs (and the files for marimba/agogobel?)
	Brian Redfern wrote: > > I'm a csound newcomer, just wondering about the best > ways to try to make realistic drum sounds. Use samples (with loscil)- and even with very good sampled sounds, it's a pain to make the drumming sound reasonably realistic. Generally, Csound is probably not the best tool for imitating traditional instruments. You could try the opcode pluck, but it is better for string sounds than drum. Among the very new opcodes (You need version 3.47 for this to work), there one called "marimba", but according to the docs it wants some sample to work. Is this true, and if so, where could we get the mentioned files "marmstk1.wav" and "britestk.wav"? Regards, re

Date	1998-02-16 13:40
From	jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject	Re: percussive designs (and the files for marimba/agogobel?)
	The impulse files are in pub/dream/documentation/sounds/modelling/ At least they are supposed to b. ==John >>>>> "rasmus" == rasmus ekman writes: rasmus> You could try the opcode pluck, but it is better rasmus> for string sounds than drum. Among the very new rasmus> opcodes (You need version 3.47 for this to work), rasmus> there one called "marimba", but according to the rasmus> docs it wants some sample to work. rasmus> Is this true, and if so, where could we get the rasmus> mentioned files "marmstk1.wav" and "britestk.wav"? rasmus> Regards, rasmus> re Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa06251; 16 Feb 98 14:35 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08043; 16 Feb 98 14:35 GMT Received: (qmail 4238 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 14:35:50 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 14:35:50 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (OAA23122); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:04:26 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 14:04:00 GMT Received: from aixrs1.hrz.uni-essen.de [132.252.180.228] by hermes via ESMTP (OAA18900); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:03:47 GMT Received: from fila (khalid@ascend85.extern.uni-essen.de [132.252.240.85]) by aixrs1.hrz.uni-essen.de (8.8.5/8.7) with SMTP id PAA70160 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:04:27 +0100 Message-Id: <34E84780.51E8477F@uni-essen.de> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:04:48 +0100 From: khalid X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: new csound/parser (symbolic links) References: <34E84718.244B1E81@uni-essen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Matt J. Ingalls wrote: > > If you have a platform that truly > > support symbolic links, you don't have to rename your files to soundin.xx, > - could you explain this more? A symbolic link ("symlink") is a property of Unix filesystems. It is a file that points to the logical adress of another file. So what's the use?? - They are handy when you would have to keep several copies of the same file, f.e. when they're referen- ced by programs under different names, or when you want to have multiple identical files but you don't want to copy them all over again if you change one of them. They take only 1 "block" of the filesystem, so you could make a copy of a 10 Meg soundfile with just a 1K file. Nice, huh? kd Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa06636; 16 Feb 98 17:05 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa20606; 16 Feb 98 17:05 GMT Received: (qmail 4955 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 17:05:11 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 17:05:11 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (QAA14679); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:46:48 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 16:46:29 GMT Received: from mercury.anglia.ac.uk [193.63.55.68] by hermes via SMTP (QAA07794); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:46:18 GMT Received: from Anglia-Message_Server by mercury.anglia.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:43:18 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:42:41 +0000 From: Olivier Pasquet To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Real time IN Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hello, I have a small problem with the Real Time CSound. When I try the Gabriel's example (delay), it says me: "Failed to open DAC: wave out device already allocated" -- I have tryed to set my soundcard at 8 bits: nothing changes. -- I have tryed two types of soundcard (Sound blaster and Turtlebeach). I know they are all Soundblaster compatible... -- When I remove the "-i" flag, the OUT realtime works all right. I'm quite sure it is a stupid thing. How can I do? Thank You very much. Olivier. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa06663; 16 Feb 98 17:27 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21370; 16 Feb 98 17:27 GMT Received: (qmail 14112 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 17:27:28 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 17:27:28 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (QAA15441); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:42:08 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 16:41:48 GMT Received: from portal.dx.net [199.190.65.2] by hermes via ESMTP (QAA12998); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:41:25 GMT Received: from nmol.com ([206.162.11.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00478 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:42:09 -0500 (EST) X-Routed: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:44:40 -0500 X-Tcp-Identity: Mikeb Received: from nmol.com [206.162.11.155] by nmol.com with smtp id AJCLDLCB ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:44:00 -0500 Message-Id: <34E80AC9.52B0FEDF@nmol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:45:46 +0000 From: Mike Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: David Schuyeteneer Cc: csound mailing list Subject: Re: unwanted "line" sweepback References: <19980213201932331.AAA211@nobody> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk David Schuyeteneer wrote: > > khold oscil 50,0.3,2 > kvib randh 1,abs(khold) > kdown line 1,p3,-5 > > ; loscil xamp, kcps, ifn,[ibasefreq,][imod1, ibeg, iend] > a1 loscil 10000, 1+kvib, 1, 1 , 1, 0, 363790 > a2 loscil 10000, kdown, 1, 1 , 1, 0, 363790 Your line runs from 1 to -5. When it passes zero, you begin to "speed up" again, in a negative direction. -- Mike Berry mikeb@nmol.com http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07063; 16 Feb 98 19:31 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa25947; 16 Feb 98 19:31 GMT Received: (qmail 5628 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 19:31:04 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 19:31:04 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA22383); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:12:52 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 19:12:33 GMT Received: from [193.121.99.70] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA06550); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:12:24 GMT Received: from nobody ([193.74.7.134]) by hurricane.netgate.be (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-32575U60) with ESMTP id AAA47 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:15:59 +0100 From: David Schuyeteneer To: csound mailing list Subject: new language proposal Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:20:49 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19980216191558558.AAA47@nobody> Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk A new sound language should be invented with syntax like this : I honestly have to admit that inspiration comes from "POVRAY", wich can be considered as the visual equivalent of Csound...It is a raytracer that describes a 3D scene the same way Csound does with sound. I think Csound lacks in clarity and structure. Disadvantages of Csound structure : -needs everything to be completed on one line -absence of parentheses,brackets,vector-style modifications -opcodes are too short abrieviated... - blah-blah.. - blah... - bl.. - b.. - .. - ? #include "fx.inc" // includes fx.inc file wich contains several reverb and chorus modules #insert "stereo_441.hdr" //inserts ascii content of file "stereo_441.hdr" #declare My_LFO lfo { sine<5,1>} ##declare #declare My_Random_LFO lfo { rnd { uniform // "uniform" and "interpolation are keywords (see manual for details) interpolation frequency <5> /* anything between "<" and ">" are interpreted as vectors (see manual for the vector dimensions) / }//rnd block } ##declare #declare My_Beep sound { sine { amplitude 10000 basefreq 100 harmon 1, 0.5 harmon 2, 2 } amplitude { // modifies sine{} amplitude overall { attack 0.1 decay 0.1 sustain 2 release 0.1 } //overall harmon { <1> My_LFO } // My_LFO controls harmonic 1 harmon { <2> My_Random_LFO 1.5 //My_Random_LFO for harmonic 2 } } // amplitude block frequency { harmon { <1> sine <20,5> } //sine } // frequency block }// sound block ##declare output { My_Beep { start 0 duration 7 stereo <0.3,0.7> // 30% left channel, 70% right channel } } My_Beep { start 7 duration 7 stereo { pan{sine<1,2>}} } }output block OR we could invent a language wich only works on massive parallel processing Supercomputers. This kind of language could be of a ultra high level like : #include "amplitud.inc" //this includes different amplitude sets for symphonies sound 1{ symphony { // generate a complete symphony with 300 instruments instruments 300 style 1 ( beethoven 0.1) // 10% of beethoven style style 2 ( bach 0.9) // 90% of Bach style } morph { style<1,2> //morph from style 1 to style 2 melodic 0.3 // 30% morphing of melody rythm 0.7 /* 70% morphing of rythm, so here the morph will be more clear on the rythm / time duration/2 //morph will be complete in duration/2 seconds } } output { 1 amplitude Standard_Symphony start 0 duration 3600 //1-hour symphony } // ---------------- end of symphony.mus ----------------------------------- David. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07166; 16 Feb 98 20:09 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27254; 16 Feb 98 20:09 GMT Received: (qmail 27901 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 20:09:28 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 20:09:28 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA12885); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:59:22 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 19:59:06 GMT Received: from portal.dx.net [199.190.65.2] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA08938); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:58:58 GMT Received: from nmol.com ([206.162.11.2]) by portal.dx.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13077 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:00:00 -0500 (EST) X-Routed: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:02:30 -0500 X-Tcp-Identity: Mikeb Received: from nmol.com [206.162.11.153] by nmol.com with smtp id ANABCECK ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:01:36 -0500 Message-Id: <34E83919.91102FE9@nmol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:03:22 +0000 From: Mike Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: csound mailing list Subject: Re: new language proposal References: <19980216191558558.AAA47@nobody> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk David Schuyeteneer wrote: > > A new sound language should be invented with syntax like this : > > I honestly have to admit that inspiration comes from "POVRAY", wich can be > considered > as the visual equivalent of Csound...It is a raytracer that describes a 3D > scene the same way > Csound does with sound. > > I think Csound lacks in clarity and structure. Disadvantages of Csound > structure : > -needs everything to be completed on one line > -absence of parentheses,brackets,vector-style modifications > -opcodes are too short abrieviated... > - blah-blah.. > - blah... > - bl.. > - b.. > - .. > - .............. We should remember as we discuss csound language modifications that there is no need to write a language that is just like C or C++. This is because those languages already exist, and it is certainly possible and not terribly difficult to write your music directly using a C++ compiler and a set of standard sound and file i/o classes. I mention this because this is how I often work myself. The object of csound should be to provide something different from this. Currently, csound offers a compact (though recently bulging) dictionary and a straight-forward (or limited) syntax. This makes it easier to learn than C. Also, cross-platform support that is easier than C or C++. This discussion began (I think) as more about the internals of csound, rather than the structure of the orc or sco. The internals ARE a hodge-podge, but this is primarily of concern to those who support the code. If those people want to clean it up, either through DLL's or C++ or whatever, and they have the time and nerve, then do it. But the point of that would be to PRESERVE the way users interact with csound, not to change it. When you discuss significant changes to the syntax of csound, there is very little reason to call it csound or start from the csound source (because the source is not orderly or intelligible). Instead, you are talking about making a new language. This is O.K., but should not be confused with upgrading csound. (Many of us have done just that - SAOL is the MIT version, GrainWave is my Mac version, and so on...). There should be lots of tools available, since not every tool fits every purpose. I think that anything that makes maintaining csound easier is a good thing. But a new language is not maintenance, it is something new and separate, and should be considered as such. -- Mike Berry mikeb@nmol.com http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07172; 16 Feb 98 20:09 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27259; 16 Feb 98 20:09 GMT Received: (qmail 27931 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 20:09:50 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 20:09:50 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA01597); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:02:53 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 20:02:37 GMT Received: from mercury.anglia.ac.uk [193.63.55.68] by hermes via SMTP (UAA03316); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:02:31 GMT Received: from Anglia-Message_Server by mercury.anglia.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:59:24 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:58:58 +0000 From: Olivier Pasquet To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: new language proposal -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hello David, I like how your parallel processing supercomputer will work. Do not worry this will come very soon on optic machines big like a simple poket calculator. But, we will maybe die before. For my part, I do not wait for a higher level. Indeed, it usually go against you. You cannot do everything you want or everybody will use the same "super hight level" functions. CSound have more and more hight level opcodes such as voiceFM... It is useful but I prefere really new C codes that full the lack of CSound capabilities (fof or pvanal styles...) A supercomputer would allow us to do very complicated processings using a simple programme such as CSound. Actually, I am not sure that a complicated processing would change the sounds quality a lot. At the sight of granular synthesis, I do not know... Are there other language like CSound. I only hear CSound or older versions in my universe. Bye Bye. Olivier. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07180; 16 Feb 98 20:11 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27392; 16 Feb 98 20:11 GMT Received: (qmail 5827 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 20:11:40 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 20:11:40 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA10069); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:03:38 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 20:02:37 GMT Received: from mercury.anglia.ac.uk [193.63.55.68] by hermes via SMTP (UAA03316); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:02:31 GMT Received: from Anglia-Message_Server by mercury.anglia.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:59:24 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:58:58 +0000 From: Olivier Pasquet To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: new language proposal -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hello David, I like how your parallel processing supercomputer will work. Do not worry this will come very soon on optic machines big like a simple poket calculator. But, we will maybe die before. For my part, I do not wait for a higher level. Indeed, it usually go against you. You cannot do everything you want or everybody will use the same "super hight level" functions. CSound have more and more hight level opcodes such as voiceFM... It is useful but I prefere really new C codes that full the lack of CSound capabilities (fof or pvanal styles...) A supercomputer would allow us to do very complicated processings using a simple programme such as CSound. Actually, I am not sure that a complicated processing would change the sounds quality a lot. At the sight of granular synthesis, I do not know... Are there other language like CSound. I only hear CSound or older versions in my universe. Bye Bye. Olivier. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07190; 16 Feb 98 20:29 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27762; 16 Feb 98 20:29 GMT Received: (qmail 5900 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 20:30:02 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 20:30:02 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA07739); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:20:54 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 20:20:37 GMT Received: from root@xochi.tezcat.com [204.128.247.12] by hermes via ESMTP (UAA01521); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:20:31 GMT Received: from [204.248.80.120] (antiorp.tezcat.com [204.248.80.120]) by xochi.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id OAA29677 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:20:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802162020.OAA29677@xochi.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:25:08 -0600 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk From: =cw4t7abs Subject: Re: new language proposal -Reply Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >Are there other language like CSound. I only hear CSound or older versions = in >my universe. super koll!dr nyku!st. s y m m e t r +3 [k 0 r ; u p t -1 p n ---- =D8 f =D8 =D8 =D8 3 [p-un_kT-pr_o-T=96k_oL] 3000f0/sba7t4wc=3D/kd.lime-dog.www//:pTTh Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07248; 16 Feb 98 20:58 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa28777; 16 Feb 98 20:58 GMT Received: (qmail 1004 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 20:58:06 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 20:58:06 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA18147); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:49:50 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 20:49:34 GMT Received: from f23.hotmail.com [207.82.250.34] by hermes via SMTP (UAA08978); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:49:26 GMT Received: (qmail 1999 invoked by uid 0); 16 Feb 1998 20:48:51 -0000 Message-Id: <19980216204851.1998.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.172.80.206 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:48:50 PST X-Originating-Ip: [207.172.80.206] From: Paul Winkler To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Whither music? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:48:50 PST Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >> Which gets into realms of potential poetry that might be arguably >> blurring the line between music and language... interesting, eh? > >Which is exactly what the swedish "Text-Sound" movement of the 1960's >did. In 1953 swedish poet =D6yvind Fahlstr=F6m wrote his "Manifesto For >Concrete Poetry" where he suggested a form of poetry on the same >principles as the concrete music, he wanted to strip the poetry of all >semantic content and use the words and syllables as pure poetic >carriers. The resulting movement used tapes and electro-aucustic >techniques to acheive his goals, and no-one could really decide if >they composed music or wrote poetry, hence the term "Text-Sound >Compositions" where coined. I'm familiar with the work, though not the history of it... one of my college professors, Charles Stein, continues to be quite active in this field. He's written some very interesting scores with "nonsense" words and sounds scattered over the page and directional symbols suggesting patterns of movement among them, as well as roughly indicating inflections. Plus we used to do a lot of "text-sound" improvisation. Fun stuff. --PW ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07318; 16 Feb 98 21:21 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa29581; 16 Feb 98 21:21 GMT Received: (qmail 6105 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 21:21:22 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 21:21:22 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (VAA00391); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:14:41 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 21:14:23 GMT Received: from root@xochi.tezcat.com [204.128.247.12] by hermes via ESMTP (VAA15970); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:14:16 GMT Received: from [204.248.80.120] (antiorp.tezcat.com [204.248.80.120]) by xochi.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id PAA01554 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:14:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802162114.PAA01554@xochi.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:18:47 -0600 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk From: =cw4t7abs Subject: Re: Whither music? Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >>> Which gets into realms of potential poetry that might be arguably >>> blurring the line between music and language... interesting, eh? >> >>Which is exactly what the swedish "Text-Sound" movement of the 1960's >>did. In 1953 swedish poet =3DD6yvind Fahlstr=3DF6m wrote his "Manifesto Fo= r >>Concrete Poetry" where he suggested a form of poetry on the same >>principles as the concrete music, he wanted to strip the poetry of all >>semantic content and use the words and syllables as pure poetic >>carriers. The resulting movement used tapes and electro-aucustic >>techniques to acheive his goals, and no-one could really decide if >>they composed music or wrote poetry, hence the term "Text-Sound >>Compositions" where coined. > >I'm familiar with the work, though not the history of it... one of my >college professors, Charles Stein, continues to be quite active in this >field. He's written some very interesting scores with "nonsense" words >and sounds scattered over the page and directional symbols suggesting >patterns of movement among them, as well as roughly indicating >inflections. Plus we used to do a lot of "text-sound" improvisation. Fun >stuff. + onl+e when !t =3D enklozed by pretent!ouz akadem!k notez jas _? !n odr wordz !t =3D oki zo long az !t =3D art.matter. tzo long az !t !=3D evr+eday operat!on rout!n + fami.liar 4m jas _? h ok ! z --- b 3 g ! n nonsense" words 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 9 9 8 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 =D8f=D8=D8=D83\| \|m9ndfukc\| hTTp://www.god-emil.dk/spCa/zweite 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 _ p h Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07336; 16 Feb 98 21:23 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa29609; 16 Feb 98 21:23 GMT Received: (qmail 3083 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 21:23:49 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 21:23:49 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (VAA12150); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:16:36 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 21:16:19 GMT Received: from lt@westnet.com [206.24.6.2] by hermes via ESMTP (VAA10854); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:16:12 GMT Received: from localhost (lt@localhost) by westnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18139; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:16:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:16:01 -0500 (EST) From: Larry Troxler To: =cw4t7abs Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: new language proposal -Reply In-Reply-To: <199802162020.OAA29677@xochi.tezcat.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, =cw4t7abs wrote: > >Are there other language like CSound. I only hear CSound or older versions in > >my universe. > > super koll!dr > nyku!st. > I'm not so sure if you could say that Nyquist is very similar to Csound, except that they are both languages for dealing with sound. Larry -- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA -- Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07639; 16 Feb 98 22:55 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02179; 16 Feb 98 22:55 GMT Received: (qmail 7755 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 22:55:17 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 22:55:17 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (WAA02492); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:45:32 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 22:45:16 GMT Received: from mail.infohouse.com [206.30.88.4] by hermes via ESMTP (WAA13785); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:45:09 GMT Received: from [208.151.41.214] ([208.151.41.213]) by milhouse.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 141-39833U2500L250S0) with ESMTP id AAA190; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:45:01 -0500 X-Sender: ic11748@mail.infohouse.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980216204851.1998.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork From: tolve Subject: Re: Whither music? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:45:01 -0500 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >>> Which gets into realms of potential poetry that might be arguably >>> blurring the line between music and language... interesting, eh? >> >>Which is exactly what the swedish "Text-Sound" movement of the 1960's >>did. In 1953 swedish poet =D6yvind Fahlstr=F6m wrote his "Manifesto For >>Concrete Poetry" where he suggested a form of poetry on the same >>principles as the concrete music, he wanted to strip the poetry of all >>semantic content and use the words and syllables as pure poetic >>carriers. The resulting movement used tapes and electro-aucustic >>techniques to acheive his goals, and no-one could really decide if >>they composed music or wrote poetry, hence the term "Text-Sound >>Compositions" where coined. > >I'm familiar with the work, though not the history of it... there is a nice little book on similar work entitled Dada Performance, edited by Mel Gordon, PAJ publications, NY. During Dada's non reign circa 1916-24: "(Hugo) Ball, (Richard) Huelsenbach, and (Tristan) Tzara experimented with three kinds of poetic techniques: Lautgedichte (sound-poetry and noise-music); simultaneous poetry; and chance poetry. Although the Futurists and turn-of-the-century German poets had already pioneered the use of nonsense words and onomatopoetic sounds as literary devices, the Dadas incorporated them into moments of hysterical incantation with real drumbeats..." but, as the italian futurists also previously created noise music with mechanical sound making devices (manifesto: the art of noise 1906?), and their work does not seem to be as well documented, you have to wonder if they really didn't get there first -after some ancient tribe somewhere else. gadji beri bimba! tolve >one of my >college professors, Charles Stein, continues to be quite active in this >field. He's written some very interesting scores with "nonsense" words >and sounds scattered over the page and directional symbols suggesting >patterns of movement among them, as well as roughly indicating >inflections. Plus we used to do a lot of "text-sound" improvisation. Fun >stuff. > >--PW > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07651; 16 Feb 98 23:02 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02452; 16 Feb 98 23:02 GMT Received: (qmail 8124 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 23:03:02 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 23:03:02 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (WAA06317); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:56:13 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 22:55:56 GMT Received: from mail.infohouse.com [206.30.88.4] by hermes via ESMTP (WAA19532); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:55:50 GMT Received: from [208.151.41.214] ([208.151.41.213]) by milhouse.infohouse.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 141-39833U2500L250S0) with ESMTP id AAA198 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:55:42 -0500 X-Sender: ic11748@mail.infohouse.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199802162020.OAA29677@xochi.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork From: tolve Subject: Re: new language proposal -Reply Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:55:42 -0500 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk i would be most interested, and appreciative in/to read/ing a superficial comparison of csound, super collider, and nyquist. tolve >On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, =cw4t7abs wrote: > >> >Are there other language like CSound. I only hear CSound or older >>versions in >> >my universe. >> >> super koll!dr >> nyku!st. Larry Troxler wrote: > >I'm not so sure if you could say that Nyquist is very similar to Csound, >except that they are both languages for dealing with sound. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07670; 16 Feb 98 23:12 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02768; 16 Feb 98 23:12 GMT Received: (qmail 8639 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 23:12:53 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 23:12:53 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (XAA20791); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:03:56 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 23:03:40 GMT Received: from root@xochi.tezcat.com [204.128.247.12] by hermes via ESMTP (XAA19435); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:03:33 GMT Received: from [204.248.80.120] (antiorp.tezcat.com [204.248.80.120]) by xochi.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id RAA05308 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:03:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802162303.RAA05308@xochi.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:08:14 -0600 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork From: =cw4t7abs Subject: Re: new language proposal -Reply Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >i would be most interested, and appreciative in/to read/ing a superficial >comparison of csound, super collider, and nyquist. nyku!zt cmj vol 21. nr 3 sc - c on line demo Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07753; 16 Feb 98 23:39 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa03475; 16 Feb 98 23:39 GMT Received: (qmail 9672 invoked from network); 16 Feb 1998 23:39:32 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 23:39:32 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (XAA00169); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:35:07 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 16 Feb 98 23:34:51 GMT Received: from root@[194.184.60.149] by hermes via ESMTP (XAA07456); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:34:29 GMT Received: (from nicb@localhost) by ax-nicb.axnet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18221; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:59:44 +0100 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:59:43 +0100 (MET) From: Nicola Bernardini To: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: [Csound parser]: format for subject headers? In-Reply-To: <34E81BB1.89209A82@cableinet.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Richard Dobson wrote: > I would like to suggest a standard format for postings to the group on this topic, > more-or-less on the lines of the one I have used for this message. A similar > system is used on a discussion list for people writing Windows Device Drivers. > What do people think? I agree. I think that threading mailing list programs could handle these subjects easily even if the string right after the square bracket is different and keep everything in the same thread. Nicola ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nicola Bernardini E-mail: nicb@axnet.it Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described with pictures. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07794; 17 Feb 98 0:10 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa04463; 17 Feb 98 0:10 GMT Received: (qmail 10828 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 00:10:08 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 00:10:08 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (AAA06667); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:05:28 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 00:05:11 GMT Received: from root@westnet.com [206.24.6.2] by hermes via ESMTP (AAA24535); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:05:04 GMT Received: from goodguy (port11.ts2.westnet.com [206.28.203.11]) by westnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29254; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:04:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <34E8E0A8.6AB63E10@westnet.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:58:16 +0000 From: Larry Troxler X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Nicola Bernardini Cc: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: [Csound parser]: format for subject headers? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Nicola Bernardini wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Richard Dobson wrote: > > > I would like to suggest a standard format for postings to the group on this topic, > > more-or-less on the lines of the one I have used for this message. A similar > > system is used on a discussion list for people writing Windows Device Drivers. > > What do people think? > > I agree. I think that threading mailing list programs could handle > these subjects easily even if the string right after the square > bracket is different and keep everything in the same thread. > > Nicola > I don't understand - What advantage does such a format have? I assume this must have to do with some type of automated way of sorting messages, but I don't understand the details. In particular, why would anyone need to mention the word "csound" in the subject on the Csound mailing list :-) Larry -- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA -- Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07805; 17 Feb 98 0:17 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa04693; 17 Feb 98 0:17 GMT Received: (qmail 11122 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 00:17:53 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 00:17:53 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (AAA17984); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:04:32 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 00:04:12 GMT Received: from root@skye1.skyenet.net [162.142.242.20] by hermes via ESMTP (AAA17634); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:03:59 GMT Received: from skynet.net (ts04-sb-13.skyenet.net [162.142.243.109]) by skye1.skyenet.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA16068 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:04:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:04:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199802170004.TAA16068@skye1.skyenet.net> X-Sender: ada@pop.skyenet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk From: "A. Archias" Subject: Re; ver 3.47(pc) & modelled opcodes Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hello; I have been trying a few of the modelled opcodes without any success. >.orc instr 1 kjet=0.32 knoise=0.15 kform=1.0 ; gain of phoneme 0 to 1.2 kfreq=260 ;freq of note played kvibf=7 ;freq of vibrato kvamp=0.05 ;amplitude of vibrato a1 wgflute kmamp,kfreq,kjet,p4,p5,knoise,kvibf,kvamp,1 endin >.sco f1 0 32768 10 1 0 0 0 0 ; st dur p4 p5 i1 0 1.0 .1 .2 e ;the symptom is that my computer (PCI 90)just hangs when instr allocation is taking place. The notes say that ifn is from a function. I assumed GEN 10 for example. I tried 'voice' and got similar results. Which GENs would apply for the modelled opcodes? Thanks for any answers Andy Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08330; 17 Feb 98 6:36 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa19450; 17 Feb 98 6:36 GMT Received: (qmail 8227 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 06:36:49 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 06:36:49 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (GAA12115); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:32:11 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 06:31:38 GMT Received: from agora.stm.it [195.62.32.1] by hermes via ESMTP (GAA15117); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:31:31 GMT Received: from default (ppp03-05.stm.it [195.62.37.133]) by agora.stm.it (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19887; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:31:30 +0100 (ITA) Message-Id: <34E80EB1.96EE725A@agora.stm.it> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:02:25 +0100 From: Gabriel Maldonado X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Troxler Cc: Csound Mailing List Subject: Re: csound parser X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Larry Troxler wrote: > It is a myth that C++ is somehow slower than the same code in C. > Efficiency is not a valid concern. In modern developing toolkits C++ compiler is exactly the same as C compiler. The only difference is the programming style: a good object-oriented style normally should be easily readable (sometimes also redoundant) and this not always goes in parallel with speed. Also the data hiding and the access of private variables by means of member functions is not always the best, if you are looking at the pure efficiency. -- Gabriel Maldonado mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7041/home2.htm Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08336; 17 Feb 98 6:37 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa19455; 17 Feb 98 6:37 GMT Received: (qmail 8230 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 06:37:12 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 06:37:12 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (GAA09543); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:32:12 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 06:31:45 GMT Received: from agora.stm.it [195.62.32.1] by hermes via ESMTP (GAA18016); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:31:34 GMT Received: from default (ppp03-05.stm.it [195.62.37.133]) by agora.stm.it (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA19907; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:31:34 +0100 (ITA) Message-Id: <34E82F00.34343FF9@agora.stm.it> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:20:16 +0100 From: Gabriel Maldonado X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: RWD@cableinet.co.uk Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: csound parser X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199802142048.PAA03355@technomancer.MIT.EDU> <34E6D048.B9840873@agora.stm.it> <34E78250.1D58F0B5@cableinet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Richard Dobson wrote: > This sounds like we are moving Csound towards being a full scripting > language. I like the idea of a synthesis language with a little more > richness than Csound (obviously, SAOL already fits this bill quite > well) , But, until now (alpha or beta version?), SAOL is very slow on PCs (at least 10 times slower than Csound).This makes realtime almost impossible. > but would be a dramatic change to the nature of Csound - perhaps too > much? I think not so much. > How far can it be taken before we end up reinventing CMIX? What is the question about CMIX ? (excuse my ignorance). Is it better than csound? > > With respect of adding new features to the ORC language, I suggest > > the > > following things: > > > > 1) the possibility to implement multi-arguments functions and > > subroutines that can be written directly in the orc code with > > following > > form: > > ;**CALLING A FUNCTION (named 'anyfunc1' in this example) > > a1 oscili anyfunc1(a2,a3,a4) kamp, anyfunc2(a3,a4,a5), 1 > > > > ;**** BODY OF A FUNCTION > > func anyfunc1(aparm1,kparm2,iparm3,kparm4) > > avalue = aparm1+sqrt(parm2) > > avalue2 oscili avalue, kparm2 ,iparm3 > > areturn avalue2 * kparm4 > > endfunc > > > > ;** CALLING A SUB (named 'anysub' in this example) > > aoutarg1, aoutarg2 anysub ainarg1,ainarg2, kinarg3 > > > > ;** BODY OF A SUB > > sub anysub(aoutarg1,aoutarg2,ainarg1,kinarg2,inarg3) > > aoutarg1 oscili 1,ainarg1,1 > > aoutarg2 oscili 1,kinarg2,1 > > aoutarg3 oscili 1,inarg3,1 > > endsub > > I'm not sure what you means by 'compiled as inline', given that Csound > > doesn't compile anything,as such. Are these really macros? Yes, they can quite easily implemented as a transparent macro preprocessor, so, for each call, a copy of code is generated. > What would be the necessary restrictions on these? For example, > presumably > the oscili instances retain their internal state between calls, i.e > are > effectively static objects. Yes, they are. > So presumably they are not re-entrant. How > would they behave if control occasionally jumped past them? They will not operate well, because oscillators' phase is not incremented all times. Some restrictions which I think to be unavoidable, unless one restart writing Csound from zero using a different philosophy. > Presumably these > would not be global functions, but within the scope of an instrument? > Could the same function be called more than once in the same argument > list? eg: > a1 oscili anyfunc1(a2,a3,a4) * kamp, anyfunc1(a3,a4,a5), these functions will be a particular case of intelligent macros. These should generate more or less the following csound code: ;*anyfunc1 func anyfunc1(i1, i2, i3) a4 oscili 1, i1,1 a5 oscili 1, i2,1 a6 oscili 1, i3,1 areturn a4+a5+a6 endfunc :* Caller instr instr 1 iamp init 2000 if1 init 120 if2 init 220 if3 init 320 out (anyfunc1(100,200,300) + anyfunc1(i1,i2,i3) ) * iamp endin ;------- code generated after the macro substitution instr 1 iamp init 2000 if1 init 120 if2 init 220 if3 init 320 ;*** start of first call substitution a41 oscili 1,100,1 ;* at each output variable name is postponed a51 oscili 1, 200,1 ;* a progressive number for each ; instance of func within the same instr a61 oscili 1, 300, 1 ;* to avoid conflicts aret1 = a41+a51+a61 ;**end of first call substitution ; start of second call substitution a42 oscili 1,if1,1 a52 oscili 1, if2,1 a62 oscili 1, if3,1 aret2 = a42+a52+a62 ; the name of return variable is ; changed in respect of that of the first call ;** end of second call substitution out (aret1 + aret2)iamp ; in this line the function calls are ;substituted with the return values of the macros endin There could be some problems with the temporary output variable names, which should not disturb other names of the variables used in the caller instr. So it is possible to merge the name of the function at each variable name. > A function which only allowed arithmetical statements might be a > useful inclusion - it could have global scope. Also a function which > allowed local > variables, so that some private modification of a krate argument could > be > made at arate, might be useful. The local variable could have an > initializer > which is reset at each krate step (or integer multiple). Sorry, I don't understand. Why a modification of a k-rate argument could be made at arate and what is its usefulness? > > 3) standard structured languages conditional flow of control > > statements:if...elseif...else...endif, > > switch...case...default..endswitch, > > Someone will surely want these at arate as well as i- and krate. That > is a > lot of keywords!In a switch, would all the 'cases' need to be at the > same > rate? There must be many examples where the direct transfer of > procedural > constructs to Csound is complicated by the issue of multiple execution > rates. I agree. A limiting rule could be to use the same rate of the conditional value. -- Gabriel Maldonado mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7041/home2.htm Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08384; 17 Feb 98 7:14 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa20519; 17 Feb 98 7:14 GMT Received: (qmail 8373 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 07:14:39 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 07:14:39 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (HAA19033); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:10:37 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 07:10:21 GMT Received: from dratajcz@TECHNOMANCER.MIT.EDU [18.238.0.90] by hermes via ESMTP (HAA19985); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:10:15 GMT Received: (from dratajcz@localhost) by technomancer.MIT.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA19310; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:10:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199802170710.CAA19310@technomancer.MIT.EDU> To: Gabriel Maldonado Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: csound parser In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:20:16 +0100." <34E82F00.34343FF9@agora.stm.it> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:10:14 EST From: David Ratajczak Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Once the csound parser has been ported to use bison/flex then the "intelligent" macros you describe below could be added fairly easily. I think this would be one of the main benefits of using a flexible (and extensible) parsing system rather than the somewhat messy and fragile one built into the current csound implementation. > > these functions will be a particular case of intelligent macros. These > should generate more or less the following csound code: > > ;anyfunc1 > func anyfunc1(i1, i2, i3) > > a4 oscili 1, i1,1 > a5 oscili 1, i2,1 > a6 oscili 1, i3,1 > > areturn a4+a5+a6 > endfunc > > :* Caller instr > instr 1 > iamp init 2000 > if1 init 120 > if2 init 220 > if3 init 320 > out (anyfunc1(100,200,300) + anyfunc1(i1,i2,i3) ) * iamp > endin > > > ;------- code generated after the macro substitution > > instr 1 > iamp init 2000 > if1 init 120 > if2 init 220 > if3 init 320 > > ;*** start of first call substitution > a41 oscili 1,100,1 ;* at each output variable name is postponed > a51 oscili 1, 200,1 ;* a progressive number for each > ; instance of func within the same instr > a61 oscili 1, 300, 1 ;* to avoid conflicts > aret1 = a41+a51+a61 > ;**end of first call substitution > > ; start of second call substitution > a42 oscili 1,if1,1 > a52 oscili 1, if2,1 > a62 oscili 1, if3,1 > aret2 = a42+a52+a62 ; the name of return variable is > ; changed in respect of that of the first call > ;** end of second call substitution > > out (aret1 + aret2)iamp ; in this line the function calls are > ;substituted with the return values of the macros > endin > > There could be some problems with the temporary output variable names, > which > should not disturb other names of the variables used in the caller > instr. So it is possible to merge the name of the function at each > variable name. > > > A function which only allowed arithmetical statements might be a > > useful inclusion - it could have global scope. Also a function which > > allowed local > > variables, so that some private modification of a krate argument could > > be > > made at arate, might be useful. The local variable could have an > > initializer > > which is reset at each krate step (or integer multiple). > > Sorry, I don't understand. Why a modification of a k-rate argument could > be made at arate and what is its usefulness? > > > > 3) standard structured languages conditional flow of control > > > statements:if...elseif...else...endif, > > > switch...case...default..endswitch, > > > > Someone will surely want these at arate as well as i- and krate. That > > is a > > lot of keywords!In a switch, would all the 'cases' need to be at the > > same > > rate? There must be many examples where the direct transfer of > > procedural > > constructs to Csound is complicated by the issue of multiple execution > > rates. > > I agree. A limiting rule could be to use the same rate of the > conditional > value. > > > -- > Gabriel Maldonado > > mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it > http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7041/home2.htm > > __________________________________________________________________________ David Ratajczak Web: http://web.mit.edu/dratajcz/ E-mail: dratajcz@mit.edu Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08678; 17 Feb 98 10:18 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27233; 17 Feb 98 10:18 GMT Received: (qmail 5882 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 10:18:50 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 10:18:50 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA12116); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:11:04 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 10:10:46 GMT Received: from alpha2.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.2.9] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA00229); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:10:40 GMT Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.1-10 #18910) id <01ITOL7MDZ4W8ZLDK8@mdx.ac.uk> for CSOUND@MATHS.EX.AC.UK; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:12:00 GMT Received: from mdx.ac.uk by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.1-10 #18909) id <01ITOL60EXNK8WX6K7@mdx.ac.uk> for CSOUND@MATHS.EX.AC.UK; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:11:41 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:11:41 +0000 (GMT) From: JAMIE B Subject: Re: new language proposal To: CSOUND@maths.ex.ac.uk Message-Id: <01ITOL60FSQA8WX6K7@mdx.ac.uk> X-Vms-To: CSOUND@MATHS.EX.AC.UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Feb 16, David S wrote: Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08686; 17 Feb 98 10:20 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27308; 17 Feb 98 10:20 GMT Received: (qmail 9223 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 10:20:22 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 10:20:22 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA25146); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:05:48 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 10:05:28 GMT Received: from nicb@[194.184.60.149] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA09055); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:05:02 GMT Received: (from nicb@localhost) by ax-nicb.axnet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00364; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:00:19 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:00:17 +0100 (MET) From: Nicola Bernardini To: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: [Symbolic links] (was: new csound/parser (symbolic links)) In-Reply-To: <34E84780.51E8477F@uni-essen.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, khalid wrote: > Matt J. Ingalls wrote: > > > If you have a platform that truly* > > > support symbolic links, you don't have to rename your files to soundin.xx, > > > - could you explain this more? > > A symbolic link ("symlink") is a property of Unix filesystems. > It is a file that points to the logical adress of another file. > So what's the use?? - They are handy when you would have to > keep several copies of the same file, f.e. when they're referen- > ced by programs under different names, or when you want > to have multiple identical files but you don't want to copy them > all over again if you change one of them. They take only > 1 "block" of the filesystem, so you could make a copy of a 10 Meg > soundfile with just a 1K file. Nice, huh? well this is not really exact. To be true, a symbolic link just take the space of the pathname it contains (even nicer, huh?). The point is that it takes one i-node (i-nodes are indexing filesystem numbers) and the quantity of i-nodes is finite (could be, for example, 1 i-node each 1K, or 1 i-node each 4k, etc.: the quantity is decided by the user at formatting time. Since us musicians we have biig files all over our disks, i-node quantity is not a concern (we often use 1 i-node for tens of megs and we end up with a lot of spare ones...:-) nicb ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nicola Bernardini E-mail: nicb@axnet.it Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described with pictures. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08749; 17 Feb 98 10:36 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27950; 17 Feb 98 10:36 GMT Received: (qmail 8196 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 10:36:03 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 10:36:03 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA23138); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:26:33 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 10:26:13 GMT Received: from [193.121.99.70] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA22184); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:26:00 GMT Received: from nobody ([193.74.7.71]) by hurricane.netgate.be (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-32575U60) with ESMTP id AAA258 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:29:46 +0100 From: David Schuyeteneer To: csound mailing list Subject: AWE64 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:24:19 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19980217102942391.AAA258@nobody> Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk has anyone an AWE64 soundblastercard ? Does it record at 16bit and simultaneous playback also at 16bit ? Coz' my sb16 is only fullduplex 16bit and 8bit mode, not 2x16bit. David. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08779; 17 Feb 98 10:44 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa28381; 17 Feb 98 10:44 GMT Received: (qmail 9443 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 10:44:32 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 10:44:32 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA03823); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:31:13 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 10:30:49 GMT Received: from nicb@[194.184.60.149] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA15559); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:30:28 GMT Received: (from nicb@localhost) by ax-nicb.axnet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00460; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:24:13 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:24:12 +0100 (MET) From: Nicola Bernardini To: Csound mailing list Subject: [Csound parser] Re: new language proposal In-Reply-To: <34E83919.91102FE9@nmol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Mike Berry wrote: [snip] > David Schuyeteneer wrote: > > > > A new sound language should be invented with syntax like this : [snip] > When you discuss significant changes to the syntax of csound, there is very > little reason to call it csound or start from the csound source (because the > source is not orderly or intelligible). Instead, you are talking about making > a new language. This is O.K., but should not be confused with upgrading > csound. (Many of us have done just that - SAOL is the MIT version, GrainWave > is my Mac version, and so on...). There should be lots of tools available, > since not every tool fits every purpose. > I think that anything that makes maintaining csound easier is a good thing. > But a new language is not maintenance, it is something new and separate, and > should be considered as such. I think that this is really so clear! This is what I meant to say in my last postings on the subject. The idea to have a more mantainable source in order to make some useful extensions does not imply the idea of speaking entirely different tongues. It's not that we don't like the other tongues, but csound is understood by csounders and this is an important value to be preserved. nicb ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nicola Bernardini E-mail: nicb@axnet.it Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described with pictures. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08790; 17 Feb 98 10:47 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa28564; 17 Feb 98 10:47 GMT Received: (qmail 9934 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 10:47:22 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 10:47:22 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA21244); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:27:02 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 10:26:42 GMT Received: from alpha2.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.2.9] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA13289); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:26:36 GMT Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.1-10 #18910) id <01ITOLRGTTTS8ZLDK8@mdx.ac.uk> for CSOUND@MATHS.EX.AC.UK; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:28:08 GMT Received: from mdx.ac.uk by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.1-10 #18909) id <01ITOL86VE5Y8WX6K7@mdx.ac.uk> for CSOUND@MATHS.EX.AC.UK; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:27:33 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:27:32 +0000 (GMT) From: JAMIE B Subject: Re: new language proposal To: CSOUND@maths.ex.ac.uk Message-Id: <01ITOL86VE608WX6K7@mdx.ac.uk> X-Vms-To: CSOUND@MATHS.EX.AC.UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk (ooops ..!) On Feb 16, David S wrote: > A new sound language should be invented with syntax like this : ... The good thing about the Csound syntax is that it is simple, and consistent. This consistency means that once one has overcome the steep learning curve, new functions can be learned with ease (provided that the synthesis technique is understood). As a musician, and not a programmer, I find Csound very refreshing ... a powerful synthesis engine, and composition tool, without the tarty front-end, or commercial 'synth' approach, which come with aesthetic qualities which can lead to standardised musical outcomes, and enable people to 'twiddle' without really knowing what they are doing (I'm NOT saying this is an invalid way of working) I would just like to thank the likes of Barry Vercoe and John ff for working so hard to make CSound possible. Csound really is, a blank canvas, with inks, brushes, oils, found objects.. Jamie B Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08824; 17 Feb 98 10:52 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa28849; 17 Feb 98 10:52 GMT Received: (qmail 9411 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 10:52:55 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 10:52:55 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA27640); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:40:11 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 10:39:43 GMT Received: from nicb@[194.184.60.149] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA07104); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:39:04 GMT Received: (from nicb@localhost) by ax-nicb.axnet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00485; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:34:12 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:34:12 +0100 (MET) From: Nicola Bernardini To: Csound mailing list Subject: [Csound Parser] Re: new language proposal -Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, tolve wrote: > i would be most interested, and appreciative in/to read/ing a superficial > comparison of csound, super collider, and nyquist. there was a suite of papers by Roger Dannenberg on one of the last CMJs which basically compared nyquist and csound. Even though Dannenberg is the creator of nyquist, the rigourous scientific approach of his articles make them some very very useful reading on benchmarking and comparing the two languages. I think this is better than anything we could write, which would be simplistic for lack of time and clarity. (Sorry about super collider, I don't even know what that is). nicb ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nicola Bernardini E-mail: nicb@axnet.it Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described with pictures. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08897; 17 Feb 98 11:23 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa00171; 17 Feb 98 11:23 GMT Received: (qmail 9829 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 11:23:32 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 11:23:32 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (LAA23074); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:07:45 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 11:07:27 GMT Received: from jaguars-int.cableinet.net [193.38.113.9] by hermes via SMTP (LAA22179); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:07:19 GMT Received: (qmail 26794 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 11:03:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cableinet.co.uk) (194.117.146.147) by jaguars with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 11:03:22 -0000 Message-Id: <34E96CE1.3F290F5@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:56:33 +0000 From: Richard Dobson Reply-To: RWD@cableinet.co.uk Organization: Composers Desktop Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Gabriel Maldonado Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: [csound parser]: macros References: <199802142048.PAA03355@technomancer.MIT.EDU> <34E6D048.B9840873@agora.stm.it> <34E78250.1D58F0B5@cableinet.co.uk> <34E82F00.34343FF9@agora.stm.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Gabriel Maldonado wrote: > But, until now (alpha or beta version?), SAOL is very slow on PCs (at > least 10 times slower > than Csound).This makes realtime almost impossible. > To be fair, the distribution is still really for development and testing purposes. Ultimately the idea is that it will be implemented in hardware, in a soundcard or a set-top box. > > How far can it be taken before we end up reinventing CMIX? > > What is the question about CMIX ? (excuse my ignorance). Is it better > than csound? > I don't use it myself, so I cannot make a judgement. Briefly, CMIX is a large library of unit generators in C - you use them by writing your own C program. It is designed by Paul Lansky:http://www.music.princeton.edu/winham/PSK/ I may follow up your macro ideas once I have read and understood (i'm a bit slow in the mornings....) :-) Richard Dobson Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa09028; 17 Feb 98 12:06 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02108; 17 Feb 98 12:06 GMT Received: (qmail 18037 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 11:35:04 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 11:35:04 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (LAA21034); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:16:00 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 11:15:31 GMT Received: from jaguars-int.cableinet.net [193.38.113.9] by hermes via SMTP (LAA05984); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:15:25 GMT Received: (qmail 28228 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 11:11:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cableinet.co.uk) (194.117.146.147) by jaguars with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 11:11:28 -0000 Message-Id: <34E96EC7.398C6F48@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:04:39 +0000 From: Richard Dobson Reply-To: RWD@cableinet.co.uk Organization: Composers Desktop Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Troxler Cc: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: [Csound parser]: format for subject headers? References: <34E8E0A8.6AB63E10@westnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Larry Troxler wrote: > Nicola Bernardini wrote: > > > > On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Richard Dobson wrote: > > > > > I would like to suggest a standard format for postings to the group on this topic, > > > more-or-less on the lines of the one I have used for this message. A similar > > > system is used on a discussion list for people writing Windows Device Drivers. > > > What do people think? > > > > I agree. I think that threading mailing list programs could handle > > these subjects easily even if the string right after the square > > bracket is different and keep everything in the same thread. > > > > Nicola > > > > I don't understand - What advantage does such a format have? I assume > this must have to do with some type of automated way of sorting > messages, but I don't understand the details. > Yes, by having a fixed element in the subject line, it becomes searchable (eg by a perl script or whatever). I also thought it could be a courtesy to the list, since there could be many large posts on this topic, and perhaps not everyone will want to read them! :-) > In particular, why would anyone need to mention the word "csound" in the > subject on the Csound mailing list :-) > A good point! OK, lets just say Re: [parser]: On the other hand, especially since posts are archived for the web, the full string "Csound parser" may well get more hits from search engines - the more exposure Csound gets, the better! Richard Dobson Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa09091; 17 Feb 98 12:32 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa03601; 17 Feb 98 12:32 GMT Received: (qmail 26652 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 12:28:43 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 12:28:43 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (MAA24740); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:00:28 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:00:07 GMT Received: from aixrs1.hrz.uni-essen.de [132.252.180.228] by hermes via ESMTP (LAA21751); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:59:58 GMT Received: from fila (khalid@ascend35.extern.uni-essen.de [132.252.240.35]) by aixrs1.hrz.uni-essen.de (8.8.5/8.7) with SMTP id NAA43124 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:00:43 +0100 Message-Id: <34E97C00.EC757BE@uni-essen.de> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:01:04 +0100 From: khalid X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Symbolic links] Being communicative? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Nicola Bernardini wrote: > > well this is not really exact. To be true, a symbolic link just > take the space of the pathname it contains (even nicer, huh?). The > point is that it takes one i-node (i-nodes are indexing filesystem > numbers) and the quantity of i-nodes is finite (could be, for example, > 1 i-node each 1K, or 1 i-node each 4k, etc.: the quantity is decided > by the user at formatting time. Since us musicians we have biig files > all over our disks, i-node quantity is not a concern (we often use > 1 i-node for tens of megs and we end up with a lot of spare ones...:-) Nicola, why don't you reply to people asking you words you use the next time? I just replied because your initial answer to "fellow csounder" Matt J. Ingalls didn't give him a chance to get an idea of what a symbolic link is (in my opinion). As far as I remember, he didn't ask for inodes. I would like everybody to explain what they're talking about themselves (my opinion). kd Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa09097; 17 Feb 98 12:34 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa03702; 17 Feb 98 12:34 GMT Received: (qmail 27437 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 12:32:58 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 12:32:58 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (MAA11578); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:15:48 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:15:27 GMT Received: from nicb@[194.184.60.149] by hermes via ESMTP (MAA10312); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:15:15 GMT Received: (from nicb@localhost) by ax-nicb.axnet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01611; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:10:09 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:10:09 +0100 (MET) From: Nicola Bernardini To: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: [Symbolic links] Being communicative? In-Reply-To: <34E97C00.EC757BE@uni-essen.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, khalid wrote: > Nicola Bernardini wrote: > > > > well this is not really exact. To be true, a symbolic link just [snip] > > Nicola, > why don't you reply to people asking you words you use the > next time? I just replied because your initial answer to "fellow > csounder" Matt J. Ingalls didn't give him a chance to get an idea > of what a symbolic link is (in my opinion). As far as I remember, > he didn't ask for inodes. I would like everybody to explain what > they're talking about themselves (my opinion). You are absolutely right. Since Matt is (as he says) a Mac user, I took the thread of answering him with examples he could use on his machine (a thing that I seemed to appreciate in a later posting). In the reply to your mail, I just pointed out that a symbolic link is even better than what you described, that's all. You know, it is difficult to discern people faces and attitudes from ASCII characters, so very often mail posting look like presumptous or offensive while that was not their initial intention. It happens to me too. nicb ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nicola Bernardini E-mail: nicb@axnet.it Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described with pictures. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa09412; 17 Feb 98 13:02 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa05149; 17 Feb 98 13:02 GMT Received: (qmail 10592 invoked from network); 17 Feb 1998 13:02:47 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 17 Feb 1998 13:02:47 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (MAA06122); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:40:48 GMT Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:40:01 GMT Received: from exim@wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk [138.38.100.104] by hermes via SMTP (MAA07169); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:39:54 GMT Received: from omphalos.maths.bath.ac.uk (maths.Bath.AC.UK) [138.38.99.25] (mmdf) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.80 #1) id 0y4mJG-00063H-00; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:39:38 +0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 12:39:43 GMT From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk Subject: Re: entry.c and dynamic linking To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Message-Id: Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Message written at 17 Feb 1998 10:05:48 +0000 In-reply-to: <199802160237.CAA26864@hermes> (message from Eli Brandt on Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:38:55 -0500 (EST)) Eli wrote... > It's always hard to argue when somebody else says they'd like to > rewrite an unmaintainable body of code. :-) While I am happy with the first part, the second is not true. It is maintainable. Not only that but it is modifiable, as has been done over recent years. Personally I would find YACC/LEX more unmaintainable. Yes and i do have to lecture on it next week. ==John ffitch