| to discard our intellectual inheritence is at worst to say that it is
better we keep ourselves stupid and not learn new ways to exercise or
expand our mental/imaginative abilities. Music is not just about physical
response or physical ability. To be able to imaginatively manipulate all
sound possibilities is one of our greatest achievements, and something
that many take for granted. It has been facilitated for us by some very
creative and imaginative people many of whom are brilliant acoustic
musicians. Computer music activity fuels the intellect, stimulates the body
(remember it comes back in through our ears). That SPIRITUALITY has a
monopoly on music is at the very least naive. I earn a living from playing
live music (flamenco/latin guitar) . Last year I played 260 gigs!. It is
not always spiritual. Sometimes it is just a job, a service. The real world
of making music professionally has little to do with spirituality. There
are many reasons for making or playing music. But as much as I love the
physical interaction between the guitar and myself it does not exclude
other musical/sonic worlds from existing, nor should it. per
>> Yes. Those who strive for the ultimate imitation of natural music by
>> computers are losers. Music
>> is something spiritual IN THE FIRST PLACE. It cannot be replaced by a set
>> of digital chips producing
>> a stream of numbers based on algorithms. True music is always a FYSICAL
>> interaction between
>> the player and it's instrument(s).
>>
>> David.
> This is one of the main problems with computor music and CSound in
>general, is that you cannot interact with something that is not realtime.
>At least with midi, one can play in one part and then interact by recording
>another using physical controllers. Physical controllers instead of being
>a limitation transmit emotion from our bodies into sound. The physical
>interaction in my opinion and experiences, produces better music. Music
>that is extremely processed sounds boring. Just like too many overdubs in
>a studio. That is why I am gratefull to people like Gabriel Maldenado who
>are working hard on making CSound a realtime instrument. Then we could
>concentrate on sound design but then actually interact with these sounds by
>playing them. This to me is very healthy.
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
>The Renew Eden Project
>"You will see it, when you believe it."
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:39:45 +0100
From: rasmus ekman
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: percussive designs (and the files for marimba/agogobel?)
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Brian Redfern wrote:
>
> I'm a csound newcomer, just wondering about the best
> ways to try to make realistic drum sounds.
Use samples (with loscil)- and even with very good
sampled sounds, it's a pain to make the drumming
sound reasonably realistic. Generally, Csound is
probably not the best tool for imitating traditional
instruments.
You could try the opcode pluck, but it is better
for string sounds than drum. Among the very new
opcodes (You need version 3.47 for this to work),
there one called "marimba", but according to the
docs it wants some sample to work.
Is this true, and if so, where could we get the
mentioned files "marmstk1.wav" and "britestk.wav"?
Regards,
re
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:48:09 -0800
From: Derek Pierce
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To: Jeremiah Thomas Isaacs
Cc: Wayne Freno , Csound List
Subject: Re: Csound recordings
References:
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--------------388F2CBAE1937C9F39B96E31
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Hi
My name is Derek Pierce and I make music under the name Beatsystem. I hav=
e a
Cd EMIT2297 available worldwide on the Em:t label, the Cd was made almost
exclusively using csound, a review may be found on =
. I
hope you enjoy it, I would also welcome any feedback from the csound crow=
d.
Derek
Jeremiah Thomas Isaacs wrote:
> > Wayne Freno wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Are there any recordings in existance in which
> > > any part of the instrumentation is Csound?
> > > I want to see if I can get 'em locally. Thanks.
> > >
> > > Wayne F.
>
> try available everywhere. aphex twin _allegedly_ uses csound for most =
of
> the sounds on _Richard D. James_. I say allegedly only because I have
> heard conflicting information. (more yea than nay, though, in fact one
> nay)
>
> worth listening to, if you can stand all that damned metricism. (:
>
> ---
> jeremiah jti0001@jove.acs.unt.=
edu
> people.unt.edu/~jti00=
01
> ---
> excuse me but i just have to explode
> explode this body off me wake-up tomorrow
> brand new a little tired but brand new
>
> bj=BFrk
--------------388F2CBAE1937C9F39B96E31
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Hi
My name is Derek Pierce and I make music under the name Beatsystem.
I have a Cd EMIT2297 available worldwide on the Em:t label, the Cd
was made almost exclusively using csound, a review may be found on <electronic
music.com>. I hope you enjoy it, I would also welcome any feedback from
the csound crowd.
Derek
Jeremiah Thomas Isaacs wrote:
> Wayne Freno wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Are there any recordings in existance in which
> > any part of the instrumentation is Csound?
> > I want to see if I can get 'em locally. Thanks.
> >
> > Wayne F.
try available everywhere. aphex twin _allegedly_ uses csound for
most of
the sounds on _Richard D. James_. I say allegedly only because
I have
heard conflicting information. (more yea than nay, though, in fact
one
nay)
worth listening to, if you can stand all that damned metricism. (:
---
jeremiah
jti0001@jove.acs.unt.edu
people.unt.edu/~jti0001
---
excuse me
but i just have to
explode
explode this body off me
wake-up tomorrow
brand new
a little tired
but brand new
bj¿rk
--------------388F2CBAE1937C9F39B96E31--
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:11:10 +0000
From: Olivier Pasquet
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Death of modern music
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Hello again,
I have to say something about a BIG problem in NEW music.
Sorry, this is still not about CSound even if I am one of it fanatics.
Don't you think nothing happened since maybe 15-20 years? OK, there are new
sounds, new technics of composition and so on. But after having seen many and
many concerts, I feel a bit like Varese.
When I hear an electroacoustic piece, a atonal piece and all pieces that are
sayed NEW, I think: Yes, and what... Nothing is new it always sounds nearly
the same.
This is an ambisonic sound, this is a stochastic thing... OK but it has been
done already. Or if the technic is really new, it is not actually so new and
usually sounds like in the 80s...
Maybe we have been to quickly and with to much freedom. I do not know.
In an other case, contemporary music is existing. Humanity will always have
something to express but the way is not new.
It is time to replace electrons by something else. Synthesis idea by something
NEW. The time will say it.
WHO CAN HELP ME?
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:58:22 +0000
From: Olivier Pasquet
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Experimental music you sayed???
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Hello David,
Don't you think that *experimental* music is not appropriate?
Indeed, in electroacoustic compositions, the music is made by trying and
trying again until the composer admits it sounds all right. I really think
this way of composing is close to the scientist experimentation technics.
An other "way" of composition is to write the music down and (make it) play it
later on. In this case, there are two steps: the composition itself and then
the rehearsal. The rehearsal seems to be experimental as well but, in this
case, the composition itself does not follow the experimentation rules. Can we
say it is experimental music?
I know, you meant that the technics were experimental. It means the synthesis,
the way of doing or playing it, the new axioms (predefined rules...) you gave
to yourself.
Or if you meant that the composition itself was experimental, I think we are
always experimenting someway when composing. We are experimenting our ideas.
In this case, all Arts are experimentation(s).
Sot I am a bit disturbed when I speak about experimental music because we
never know when it is and when it is not. We should use other words to avoid
the mixing between the composition and its result, between the scientific
experimentation and the artistic experimentation.
Yours Olivier.
--------------------------
Olivier Pasquet -- APU Cambridge -- op101@mercury.anglia.ac.uk
http://www.sinclair.anglia.ac.uk/~op101.student.cambridge.anglia
--------------------------
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From: Ross Clement
Message-Id: <199802131705.RAA11620@leopard.wmin.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Death of modern music
To: Olivier Pasquet
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:05:18 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: from "Olivier Pasquet" at Feb 13, 98 04:11:10 pm
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Hi. The CSound List introduction that I received said that I shoud write
a short bio of myself. I'm a CSound novice, though I've done a fair bit
of hobby synthesis over the years on a variety of instruments, mainly
digital but also analogue.
I've done the occasional bit of music synthesis programming too, mainly
in C on Silicon Graphics machines.
This year, I'm involved with some Sound for Multimedia courses for both
undergraduate and graduate multimedia courses. We'll (I'm officially
responsible for the courses, but a professional musician will be
teaching most of the material (I'll be covering mainly a one hour
tutorial on programming issues).
However, what I've seen of CSound so far has knocked me out, and I'm
really enthusiastic about using this incredibly powerful, if rather
difficult to learn (I saw the quote 'vertical learning curve'
somewhere) tool in my own (hobby) music.
Being what's known in Japan as a 'Kuchi ga heranai yatsu' ('someone whose
mouth never runs out'), I have to respond to one of the emails that
I've received.
Oliver wrote:
> I have to say something about a BIG problem in NEW music.
> Sorry, this is still not about CSound even if I am one of it fanatics.
>
> Don't you think nothing happened since maybe 15-20 years? OK, there are new
> sounds, new technics of composition and so on. But after having seen many and
> many concerts, I feel a bit like Varese.
My opinion (for what it's worth) is, if you think this, then why don't you
do something about it by inventing the new wave of music yourself? In
popular music at least, it's said that sudden steps forward sometimes come
after periods of stagnation (e.g. Beatles). I personally think that electronic
dance music is where the most new ideas are evolving, but that's a popular
music form, and those interested in more serious or academic music forms
probably disagree.
Could anyone point me towards academic resources concerning stochaistic/
generative music. In my ignorance I thought that the current application
of this (not the concept itself, didn't Mozart write a paper on the
composition of waltzes by the use of die?) was fairly new. As a fan of
popular music, many of my preferred artists are those who take elements of
more serious forms of music and present them in a more consumable form
(Varese through Zappa, Minimalism through Eno etc.)
What about interactive music, which is quite technically possible with
modern technology? (E.g. I haven't yet learned how CSound interacts
with realtime MIDI, but this should allow one aspect of interaction
between the listener and the music). This isn't new, as live musicians
and groups thereof can interact with their audience, but perhaps linking
the listener directly into the guts of a synthesis engine itself would
give quite different results.
Personally I think that some modern techno music sounds (to my non-academic
ears) more like (e.g.) African percussive music than traditional melody+
harmony, defined structure western music, based around complex interacting,
evolving patters. But, it sounds quite different. If we wanted to, we
could say that after Og the caveperson first made audio sounds for
enjoyment, the concept of 'music' was old hat.
(Prepares to be shot down in flames by the 'real' musicians :-))
Cheers,
Ross-c
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:06:12 -0800 (PST)
From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Music Talk/Re: Death of modern music
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what is that Varese quote about the two kinds of music:
One kind should be played but never talked about and the other should be
talked about and never played...
> Don't you think nothing happened since maybe 15-20 years? OK, there are new
maybe has to do with funding cuts and/or inflation... (at least in
the US) i dont think its possible to exist as a mere composer (especially
writing only "experimental" music)
maybe it has to do with TV.
and i have to add here my own recent dissappointment with
"academic" music and music institutions (im thinking mostly in the US). i
think at one point they were open to new forms of music - but try to
present something not usually heard in their musical sphere today (im not
even saying innovative).... (and im NOT talking about my personal
experience here!)
-matt
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Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:42:47 +0100
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:42:46 +0100 (MET)
From: Nicola Bernardini
To: Csound mailing list
Subject: Re: Linux Realtime MIDI input stream
In-Reply-To: <199802042307.SAA14316@technomancer.MIT.EDU>
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, David Ratajczak wrote:
[snip]
>
> Is anyone out there working on a linux implementation of Maldonado's
> csound or some other realtime variant? I would be interested to speak
> with anyone else about this or other linux related topics.
what are the differences between RTsound and csound, aside from
running, as the name says, in real time? the very straightforward
csound has been running for me in real time on linux since 3.36 (:-))
[snip]
> Sadly, linux does fall a bit behind Win95 on the usability scale.
> But linux is better :)
come on! we just need to make MIDI work, that's all (besides, it
could very well be running by now: I cannot help here because
I do not have access to a MIDI interface).
Nicola
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.
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Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:02:48 +0100
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:02:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Nicola Bernardini
To: Csound mailing list
Subject: Re: entry.c and dynamic linking
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Gabriel Maldonado wrote:
> Michael Gogins already proposed, some time ago, the same concept,
> developing a Csound version which supports external dll loading. The
> external library provided by Gogins includes all original C++ Perry Cook
> tool-kit opcodes.
> Then I linked Michael Gogins' external library support to Win95 realtime
> MIDI Csound version (RTsound 1.9), so even my version supports external
> DLL now. The
> problem is how to extend the programming interface to all the other
> platforms without introducing too many differences, so the sources of an
> external
> library of opcodes can be ported to all platforms without a too big
> effort.
I do not see where the too many differences would be: as in the
graphics interface (which is far more diversified between X11, win95,
mac, etc.) the thing to do is well known: make interface routines
to dynamic loading (write a version for each platform), then the
rest of the code (linked list of entry tables, etc.) is absolutely
the same for all platforms. That'll make writing 3-4 functions for
each platform, plus the portable code. The other idea would be to use
a config file for csound, to speed up the loading and to let csound
know which opcodes are available, along with a cache of the opcode
libraries already loaded.
>
> Another thing I believe to be useful, is to open and close orchestra and
> scores without having to restart Csound each time. In this case the time
> of loading will be reduced and this will help us especially when writing
> and testing new osc/scos. Any idea?
well, this would imply running an eval loop and an in-line editor
(a` la lisp, to be clear). Now *this* implies some work, especially
considering the way the parser is presently written (and has always
been, as far as I know): it's absolutely impossible to modify and
maintain that section of code the way it is written. Which brings
me to another subject: is the csound community interested in attempting
a backward-compatible re-write of the parser using decent tools like
lex (flex) and yacc (bison)? This would allow, after rebuilding the parser,
much better possibilities in extending the language for important
things like array variables, better conditionals, sub-patching
(instrument stacking), parameter field passing with strings, numbers,
variables, etc. Can you imagine what csound would be like with these
constructs? It would have the same impact as switching from
fortran-like Music V to csound itself!
I am available to put some effort into this, but I would like to
understand from this list if this is something effectively useful
to the community (I won't do it for the sake of doing it, I don't care).
I see this list spends a lot of bandwith in discerning the intentions
of =cwlabs42! (or whatever her/his name is) or discussing the true
nature of music, but rarely (almost never) replies to these questions.
Nicola
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:20:17 +0000
From: Charles Baker
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Subject: RE: Death of Modern Music
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Ross-c wrote:
>Personally I think that some modern techno music sounds (to my
non-academic
>ears) more like (e.g.) African percussive music than traditional
melody+
>harmony, defined structure western music, based around complex
interacting,
>evolving patters. But, it sounds quite different. .
>(Prepares to be shot down in flames by the 'real' musicians :-))
Well,
first off, I may have a Ph.D. in music composition, and played in many
professional orchestras for years.so I guess I call myself a "real"
musician..
..*but* I would be the first to admit the "real-ness" of the
musicianship of
(*many* but not all!) popular musicians. And I think you've hit at the
heart
of the biggest movement in both art and pop music today: the rise of the
'African" rhythmic musical paradigm.(I quote African, because don't
tell the indian Tabla player or the player in the village Gamelan that
their music isn't a heavily/"primarily" rhythmic music. And a lot of
the interest in rhythm in modern "art" music is from these sources,
rather
than African...)
I feel music can be found/"used" in many different social/human
activities,
and I don't feel any one expression of music is ideal for all these, but
I still feel they are all valid to some degree within their environment.
I don't expect Varese to be appropriate or popular in a popular dance
venue, and I don't really want to listen to F.S.O.L. sitting down in
a dark concert hall, but hearing a good live performance of Hyperprism
is, for me, a true peak experience, and a well-done techno CD or wailing
blues album can be just the ticket for a busy dish washing or house
dusting
session. And I don't judge! One cannot live on an exalted peak of
complex
listening (eg: the Eliot Carter Double Concerto live at Ojai festival)
twenty four hours a day, 365 days a year! We all have to wash clothes,
we all have moments where "high" art is too much, in-appropriate, and
just plain silly!
On the other hand, to those who welcome a "serious" composer's open
support
of popular music styles, REMEMBER:
a) the 90% rule holds. only about 10% of any art form/style is good.
b) If all you know is the popular styles, you really are missing some
amazing music. It's not just "bloop-bleep", and not all dissonance is
"ugly" or "wrong". That's *why* musicians like Zappa and Eno have had
their music influenced by "serious" modern music.
To open one's ear's to new styles of music takes effort. Musicians at
my conservatory-style music school had a great deal of trouble opening
up to the ethnomusicology dept. and the wild new ensembles it brought
in.
But after a few years, and a little effort, it (ethnomusicology) has
become
one of the jewels of the school, and (mostly) visiting shakuhatchi
players
are treated with the same respect shown someone like Emanual Ax
(pianist).
In some ways, on this list, I'm "preaching to the converted"...but a few
notes have clearly shown displeasure at modern music... if it bores you,
then you havn't found/listened to the good stuff. *OR* (more likely),
you bring too much baggage to the listening experience. Open up.
As for "nothing new"... listen to "Cappricio Stravaganza" by ...hm.
forget...
mid-baroque composer. MANY "extended-performing-techniques" in that
work!
(Ca. mid 17th cent.) Does that invalidate Stockhausen's 1950's
experiments?
There's nothing new and everything is constantly new...how 'new' is your
heart?
"...and every moment is a new and shocking valuation
of all we have been..." T.S. Elliot, _Four Quartets_
Pax,
CharlieB
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:38:39 +0000
From: Charles Baker
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>As for "nothing new"... listen to "Cappricio Stravaganza" by ...hm.
>forget...
>mid-baroque composer. MANY "extended-performing-techniques" in that
>work!
>(Ca. mid 17th cent.)
Carlos Farina ...(I think....? any help? it's a cool piece...)
CharlieB
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From: Ruggero Andrea Ruschioni
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Hi,
it seems that the kfreq argument on all waveguide opcodes is in fact not
accepting kvalues. Example:
kfreq line 220,2,440
aflute wgflute 30000, kfreq, 0.32, 0.1, 0.1, 0.15, 5.925, 0.05, 1
^^^^
This doesn't work for me, my csound gets stucked forever. If I
substitute kfreq for an i-value it works.
I tried winsound 3.473, RTsound1.9 and csound.exe 3.473 on a pentium133.
Our Unix machines commited suicide today (friday 13th) so I didn't test
this on SGIs, Linux or SUNs.
Also, on RTsound1.9 I was trying the following to test moscil:
------------------------------------------
instr 1
kchn = int (rnd(16))
knum = int (rnd(127))
kvel = int (rnd(127))
kdur = rnd(2)
kpause = rnd(1)
moscil kchn, knum, kvel, kdur, kpause
endin
------------------------------------------
compiled with:
csound -odevaudio -Q[x] orc sco
with many serious and non-seriou experimantal values for [x]: it always
crashes! (this program performed an illegal operation...blah...blah...)
Whats the catch?
Thanx,
RR
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From: David Schuyeteneer
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Subject: unwanted "line" sweepback
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:13:56 +0100
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I try to pitchdown a loscil unit with a line opcode but it sweeps back
pitching up !!
I don't understand this because i clearly set the idur of the line to p3
and not p3/2 or something...
Please explain me this fellow Csounders...
orc & sco are included below and the needed soundfile was 710kb, a little
too much...so create
a soundfile yourself of 363791 sampleframes at 16bit at 44100 Hz.
David.
*** ORC *********************
*******************************
sr = 44100
kr = 441
ksmps = 100
nchnls = 1
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
;
; loscil test instrument.
;
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
instr 1
khold oscil 50,0.3,2
kvib randh 1,abs(khold)
kdown line 1,p3,-5
; loscil xamp, kcps, ifn,[ibasefreq,][imod1, ibeg, iend]
a1 loscil 10000, 1+kvib, 1, 1 , 1, 0, 363790
a2 loscil 10000, kdown, 1, 1 , 1, 0, 363790
out a1+a2
endin
*** SCO *********************
*******************************
;GEN 01 : soundfile input
;f# time size 1 filcod skiptime format channel
f1 0 0 1 "speak3.aif" 0 0 0
f2 0 256 10 1
i1 0 30
e
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 21:01:50 GMT
From: J.P.ffitch@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: GENs
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Message written at 13 Feb 1998 13:03:48 +0000
In-reply-to: (Allotropa@aol.com)
References:
>>>>> "Allotropa" == Allotropa writes:
...
Allotropa> But I'm wondering why the score files contain info on the sounds, i.e. the GEN
Allotropa> routines. It seems like the score file should just have notes as well as
Allotropa> other info to control the instruments, and the orchestra file should have all
Allotropa> info about the instruments the score plays, including the sound that
Allotropa> instrument produces. Why this inconsistency? Why is info on the sound of
Allotropa> instruments spread across both files?
nearly every one asks this question -- surely one for the FAQ! The
distinction is that the orchestra information is static, compiled at
definition time. The score is dynamic, and the data comes into
existence "just in time" and can be deleted. This was very important
on machines without much memory -- I can remember when my university
bought its second megabyte, and it cost about $60,000 -- and so
this was a real consideration. The latest version of csound have the
ability to place tables in the orchestra with the ftgen opcode, in
part in response to the increasing availability of memory, and in part
so a MIDI-only set of events do not need a score. This last facility
is an Extended Csound feature -- I think one still needs a score of an
f0 in the standard system.
==John ff
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To: Charles Baker
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From: Hans Pelleboer
Subject: Re: Death of Modern Music
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 22:21:38 PST
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>
> As for "nothing new"... listen to "Cappricio Stravaganza" by ...hm.
> forget...
Farina
Yours,
Hans Pelleboer
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From: Hans Pelleboer
Subject: monitoring
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Hello again,
Does anyone know of a tool that would allow me calculate and print out
characteristics of long soundfiles like e.g. loudness in db or so?
All the soundeditors I have seen thus far can deal only with short files or
will neither allow me to print out the resulting graphs nor spit out an
ASCII file to process later.
Hans Pelleboer
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From: Hans Pelleboer
Subject: convolution
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 22:43:51 PST
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Hello,
Is there a way in Csound to perform dynamic convolution with an external
file that contains a concatenated set of filter coefficients?
Hans Pelleboer
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To: Jason H Clouse
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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From: Hans Pelleboer
Subject: Re: Compositions for acoustic instruments and "tape"
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 23:22:38 PST
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Jason Clouse wrote:
> Just a quick thought here. I've been to performances combining live
> acoustic instruments with taped electronic parts. I understand the
> original reason for using analog tape, but why do people still do it?
> I'm always distracted by the horrible sound quality and tape hiss at
> these performances. Nowadays, it makes more sense to record these things
> digitally on CD or even DAT.
There are a couple reasons that people stick to tape:
[1] There is an intrinsic physicality to tape --measuring, splicing-- which
is
lacking in the rather abstract interaction with a computer console.
Working with tape is somehow a `whole body experience'
punching in a number like "300 seconds" gives you way less feel for the
temporal
dimension than measuring out the apprx. 100 meters of tape @15ips that
represent the same duration.
[2] Proper recorded tape on well aligned and setup tape machines is
extremely quiet. I realize that I am entering an area that belongs more to
Hifi debates but
since computer music deals also to large degree with perception, it must be
mentioned. Tape noise, being uncorrelated noise, i.e. having no temporal
relation
to the program material, is way less annoying than digitally generated
noise that
chops its way literally into the sound.
I do realize that most playback systems and recorders fall short
significantlyof what's possible. I agree, many tapes during concerts sound
just awful.
[3] The higher frequency range and temporal resolution of tape recordings
compared to the present day digital standard also add to the preceived
spatial
resolution of the recording. This translates to a recording with more
`body' and a
larger auditory image.
Given all the horrors that are happening to the temporal resolution in
recordings
treated with new compression schemes like the extended MPEG, I am wondering
if in the years to come there will even be people left that can hear
the difference, after having been subjected to bad stereo all their lifes.
Hope this helped somewhat,
Yours
Hans Pelleboer
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From: Hans Pelleboer
Subject: trajectories
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 22:35:15 PST
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Hello all,
As I read a number of messages recently about using trajectories
over n-dimensional surfaces, I would like to present a problem, that I
have wrestled with for quite a while:
Imagine a spiral like a cochleoid; i.e. a curve that is described in polar
coordinates as r(theta)= r*(sin(theta)/(theta))
If an arbitrary straight line would cross this curve, what equation would
describe its crossing points? The problem could be generalized as:
how to translate the description of curves in rectangular coordinates to
polar
coordinates and vice versa?
Any suggestions ?
Hans Pelleboer
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To: Dave LaDelfa
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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From: Hans Pelleboer
Subject: Re: Whither music?
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 23:29:47 PST
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David LaDelfa wrote:
>
> All "experiences" are chemically induced, actually. What did you eat for
> breakfast?
I think you are confusing the medium with the message here: an experience
is not chemically induced; it is conveyed through physical chemical means.
After a sound wave has been transported to your --hopefully functional!--
cochlea, the generated action potential is indeed the result of a number of
chemical processes -- that would not have been set in motion were it not
for the original
stimulus.
Hans Pelleboer
P.S I think I like Wronsky's definition of music still best:
Music is intelligence embodied in sound.
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Steven Curtin
Subject: Re: Experimental music you sayed???
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>Don't you think that *experimental* music is not appropriate?
My composition teacher David Rosenboom always disliked the term
"Experimental Music". We were both at the Experimental Music Studios at
Illinois at various times. As Varese said "first I experiment, then I make
the music". Rosenboom liked the term "Propositional Music", as in music
that says "how about this?...".
Steve C
--------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Curtin
http://www.emf.org/people_curtin.html
Lucent Technologies - Bell Labs Innovations
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To: Hans Pelleboer , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Whither music?
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Hans Pelleboer wrote:
>
>
> P.S I think I like Wronsky's definition of music still best:
> Music is intelligence embodied in sound.
I do like this one very much - can you give me the reference?
However, it works less well in one unusual circumstance, where plants have
been observed to prefer certain types of music, by leaning towards, or away
from, the speakers. I also recall seeing a program which featured a farmer
playing music to his cows (I think it was Mozart), who showed their
appreciation by an increased milk yield. Truly we are living in an Age of
wonders!
Richard Dobson
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Subject: Re: convolution
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It would be good to have a time-domain convolution - the convolve opcode
needs a spectral domain (FFT) file. Perhaps, if your data set is small, you
could read it into a table from a file via Gen1. You would need to be able
to create that file, of course - I suppose you could use Csound for that
too?
Richard Dobson
Hans Pelleboer wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Is there a way in Csound to perform dynamic convolution with an external
> file that contains a concatenated set of filter coefficients?
>
> Hans Pelleboer
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Subject: Re: trajectories
To: Csound mailing list
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:10:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Eli Brandt
In-Reply-To: from "Hans Pelleboer" at Feb 13, 98 10:35:15 pm
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Hans Pelleboer wrote:
> Imagine a spiral like a cochleoid; i.e. a curve that is described in polar
> coordinates as r(theta)= r*(sin(theta)/(theta))
> If an arbitrary straight line would cross this curve, what equation would
> describe its crossing points? The problem could be generalized as:
> how to translate the description of curves in rectangular coordinates to
> polar
> coordinates and vice versa?
/|
/ |
r / | y
/ | and the angle in there is theta
/_\__|
x
so x = r cos theta
y = r sin theta
or r = sqrt(x^2 + y^2)
theta = arctan(y/x) + quadrantfudging
a line is ax + by = 1
substituting, a(r cos theta) + b(r sin theta) = 1
or r = 1 / (a cos theta + b sin theta)
ideally we could just solve this simultaneously with your equation
r'= k sin theta' / theta'
but there's a catch: often not all intersections are simultaneous
solutions of the two. for example, if r' = r and theta' = theta+2pi,
that's still an intersection. you end up having to allow
r' = r, theta' = theta + pi 2n
and also r' = -r, theta' = theta + pi (2n+1)
in this case, that results in
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta) - theta = 0
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta + pi) + (theta + pi) = 0
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta - pi) + (theta - pi) = 0
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta + 2pi) - (theta + 2pi) = 0
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta - 2pi) - (theta - 2pi) = 0
.
.
.
etc.
the easiest thing is to graph the curves to see how many solutions
there are to find from this infinite family of equations. here
they're analytically intractable, so you'll need the graph anyway to
get guesses for your solver.
--
Eli Brandt | eli+@cs.cmu.edu | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:29:57
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Hans Mikelson
Subject: Re: Orbits 4D Examples
In-Reply-To: <9802131629.AA01241@sndart.cemi.unt.edu>
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Hi,
In instrument 4 the orbit is a coiled path traced out on the surface of a
torus. This is then used to reference the 4D surface. With instrument 5
the coordinates are sent to a 4D rotation instrument so a stereo image is
created.
Bye,
Hans Mikelson
; ORCHESTRA
; Terrain Mapping
; Coded by Hans Mikelson February 13, 1998
;
sr=22050
kr=2205
ksmps=10
nchnls=2
zakinit 50, 50
; 4D
; w=sin^2*(sqrt(x^2+y^2+z^2))
instr 4
idur = p3
iamp = p4
ifqc = cpspch(p5)
kdclick linseg 0, .002, iamp, idur-.004, iamp, .002, 0
krminor linseg .5, idur/2, 5, idur/2, .5
krmajor = krminor+1
asin1 oscil krminor, ifqc, 1
acos1 oscil krminor, ifqc, 1, .25
asin2 oscil krmajor, ifqc/4, 1
acos2 oscil krmajor, ifqc/4, 1, .25
ax = asin1+acos2
ay = acos1
az = asin2
az1 = sin(sqrt(ax*ax+ay*ay+az*az)) ; Compute the surface
az = az1*az1-.5
outs az*kdclick, az*kdclick
endin
; 4D
; w=sin^2*(sqrt(x^2+y^2+z^2))
instr 5
idur = p3
iamp = p4
ifqc = cpspch(p5)
ioutch1 = p6
ioutch2 = p7
ioutch3 = p8
ioutch4 = p9
kdclick linseg 0, .002, iamp, idur-.004, iamp, .002, 0
krminor linseg .5, idur/2, 5, idur/2, .5
krmajor = krminor+1
asin1 oscil krminor, ifqc, 1
acos1 oscil krminor, ifqc, 1, .25
asin2 oscil krmajor, ifqc/4, 1
acos2 oscil krmajor, ifqc/4, 1, .25
ax = asin1+acos2
ay = acos1
az = asin2
aw1 = sin(sqrt(ax*ax+ay*ay+az*az)) ; Compute the surface
aw = aw1*aw1-.5
zaw ax*kdclick, ioutch1
zaw ay*kdclick, ioutch2
zaw az*kdclick, ioutch3
zaw aw*kdclick*10, ioutch4
endin
; 3 Space Planar Rotations
instr 50
ifqc = p4
iphase = p5
iplane = p6
inx = p7
iny = p8
inz = p9
ioutx = p10
iouty = p11
ioutz = p12
kcost oscil 1, ifqc, 1, .25+iphase
ksint oscil 1, ifqc, 1, iphase
ax zar inx
ay zar iny
az zar inz
; Rotation in X-Y plane
if (iplane!=1) goto next1
axr = ax*kcost + ay*ksint
ayr =-ax*ksint + ay*kcost
azr = az
goto next3
; Rotation in X-Z plane
next1:
if (iplane!=2) goto next2
axr = ax*kcost + az*ksint
ayr = ay
azr =-ax*ksint + az*kcost
goto next 3
; Rotation in Y-Z plane
next2:
axr = ax
ayr = ay*kcost + az*ksint
azr =-ay*ksint + az*kcost
next3:
zaw axr, ioutx
zaw ayr, iouty
zaw azr, ioutz
endin
; 4 Space Planar Rotations
instr 51
ifqc = p4
iphase = p5
iplane = p6
inx = p7
iny = p8
inz = p9
inw = p10
ioutx = p11
iouty = p12
ioutz = p13
ioutw = p14
kcost oscil 1, ifqc, 1, .25+iphase
ksint oscil 1, ifqc, 1, iphase
ax zar inx
ay zar iny
az zar inz
aw zar inw
; Rotation in X-Y plane
if (iplane!=1) goto next1
axr = ax*kcost + ay*ksint
ayr =-ax*ksint + ay*kcost
azr = az
awr = aw
goto nextend
; Rotation in X-Z plane
next1:
if (iplane!=2) goto next2
axr = ax*kcost + az*ksint
ayr = ay
azr =-ax*ksint + az*kcost
awr = aw
goto nextend
; Rotation in Y-Z plane
next2:
if (iplane!=3) goto next3
axr = ax
ayr = ay*kcost + az*ksint
azr =-ay*ksint + az*kcost
awr = aw
goto nextend
; Rotation in X-W plane
next3:
if (iplane!=4) goto next4
axr = ax*kcost + aw*ksint
ayr = ay
azr = az
awr = -ax*ksint + aw*kcost
goto nextend
; Rotation in Y-W plane
next4:
if (iplane!=5) goto next5
axr = ax
ayr = ay*kcost + az*ksint
azr = az
awr = -ay*ksint + aw*kcost
goto nextend
; Rotation in Z-W plane
next5:
if (iplane!=6) goto nextend
axr = ax
ayr = ay
azr = az*kcost + aw*ksint
awr =-az*ksint + aw*kcost
nextend:
zaw axr, ioutx
zaw ayr, iouty
zaw azr, ioutz
zaw awr, ioutw
endin
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Mixer Section
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
instr 100
idur = p3
iamp = p4
inch1 = p5
inch2 = p6
ain1 zar inch1
ain2 zar inch2
outs ain1*iamp, ain2*iamp
endin
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Clear audio & control channels
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
instr 110
zacl 0, 50 ; Clear audio channels 0 to 30
zkcl 0, 50 ; Clear control channels 0 to 30
endin
; SCORE
f1 0 8192 10 1
; Sta Dur Amp Pch
i4 0 2 20000 9.00
; Sta Dur Amp Pch OutX OutY OutZ OutW
i5 2 2 2000 9.00 1 2 3 4
; 3 Space Planar Rotation
; 1=X-Y Plane, 2=X-Z Plane, 3=Y-Z Plane
; Sta Dur Fqc Phase Plane InX InY InZ OutX OutY OutZ
;i50 0 1.6 1.5 0 2 1 2 3 4 5 6
; 4 Space Planar Rotation
; Plane: 1=X-Y, 2=X-Z, 3=Y-Z, 4=X-W, 5=Y-W, 6=Z-W
; Sta Dur Fqc Phase Plane InX InY InZ InW OutX OutY OutZ OutW
i51 2 2 1.5 0 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
i51 2 2 1.2 0 6 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
i51 2 2 1.0 0 5 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
; Mixer
; Sta Dur Amp InCh1 InCh2
i100 2 2 1 14 16
; Clear Zak
; Sta Dur
i110 2 2
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:07:44 -0800
From: Toby
Organization: Other than 12-tone
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To: David Schuyeteneer
Cc: csound mailing list
Subject: Re: unwanted "line" sweepback
References: <19980213201932331.AAA211@nobody>
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Precedence: bulk
What you want to do is sweep among positive values and
then *Multiply* the loscil freq arg by this amount. You
see, the loscil arg is a coefficient itself, not an offset.
Any way, your example ends up generating negative pitch
values which sort of wrap around to high pitches again
giving you a 'valley' sort of result.
Toby
-There otta be a law-
David Schuyeteneer wrote:
>
> I try to pitchdown a loscil unit with a line opcode but it sweeps back
> pitching up !!
> I don't understand this because i clearly set the idur of the line to p3
> and not p3/2 or something...
>
> Please explain me this fellow Csounders...
>
> orc & sco are included below and the needed soundfile was 710kb, a little
> too much...so create
> a soundfile yourself of 363791 sampleframes at 16bit at 44100 Hz.
>
> David.
>
> *** ORC *********************
> *******************************
> sr = 44100
> kr = 441
> ksmps = 100
> nchnls = 1
>
> ;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> ;
> ; loscil test instrument.
> ;
> ;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
>
> instr 1
>
> khold oscil 50,0.3,2
> kvib randh 1,abs(khold)
> kdown line 1,p3,-5
>
> ; loscil xamp, kcps, ifn,[ibasefreq,][imod1, ibeg, iend]
> a1 loscil 10000, 1+kvib, 1, 1 , 1, 0, 363790
> a2 loscil 10000, kdown, 1, 1 , 1, 0, 363790
>
> out a1+a2
>
> endin
>
> *** SCO *********************
> *******************************
>
> ;GEN 01 : soundfile input
> ;f# time size 1 filcod skiptime format channel
> f1 0 0 1 "speak3.aif" 0 0 0
> f2 0 256 10 1
>
> i1 0 30
>
> e
>
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IMHO, the Pythagoreans are worthwhile to study as an object lesson in the sort
of damage systematic philosophising about music can cause. I get a big kick out
of old that old quote about music being too important for musicians. Of course
Plato would have rather seen an elite of philosophising politicians dictating
what everyone should or should not express or experience in the arts. Wouldn't
that be fun! It gives me a vision of Mao-Tse-Tung hosting the Lawrence Welk
show.
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From: Paul Winkler
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Whither music?
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>>>Me:
>>>My crack at it: Music is human-organized sound, or the threat
thereof.
>>>
>>"Paul Winkler" :
>>For that matter, your definitions above definitely include speech.
>
>Absolutely, but only the part of speech that is the _sound_ of speech,
>stripped of its cognition/meaning component -- which means that there's
>room for Dutiful Ducks and Rainbow Bandit Bombs under the umbrella.
Which gets into realms of potential poetry that might be arguably
blurring the line between music and language... interesting, eh?
>In general practice, of course, we consider speech primarily for its
>meaning component (its "content"), which is why at first glance its
>inclusion would seem to corrupt the definition I pose above.
>
>Unwilling to let me separate "speech" into sound and meaning? Don't we
>separate monophonic song into sonic (the "music") and cognitive (the
>meaning of the words) spheres -- especially if we don't speak the
language
>of the lyrics?
Well, sure, okay. I was getting a bit niggling.
>
>>>Note that this doesn't attempt to define what "art" is, nor what
"good
>>>music" is.
>>
>>Fine by me. Though if we COULD define "art," it might help the
>>definition of music to mention that it's a subset of art.
>
>Hm. One might argue that there are whole traditions of music which are
>outside the conceits of "art" as we understand it in Western culture.
I would tend to characterize that as a limitation of western culture
rather than the other way 'round.
>>Oh, drat, I can't resist. I'm going to quote Scott McCloud's
definition
>>of art from Understanding Comics: "...any human activity which doesn't
>>grow out of either of our species' two basic instincts: survival and
>>reproduction!"
>
>But what about love songs?
Yep... it's not really fair to Scott to quote that bit out of context...
he went out on a limb there, and a lot of the richness of his ideas is
conveyed visually... it's a 200 page comic book about how comic books
work...
>
>>"Music is a cognitive framework for interpreting experienced or
imagined
>>sound."
>
>I would so much prefer to define music in terms of what it is
>intrinsically, rather than how the mind prepares for, experiences, or
>reacts to its reception. The bullet rather than the wound.
But if it hits a tree in the woods and no one's there to hear it?
:0
You know, the way your sig file shows up in my email, it says:
>Dave LaDelfa By "multimedia" I mean that when you
click on
>ladelfa@rain.org the picture of the cat the room will
light up
>Santa Barbara, California in undulating splashes of
teal and indigo and
etc. etc...
but when I clicked on ladelfa.rain.org, nothing happened. It's really
disappointing. But then I can't see Santa Barbara from here, so I'm not
sure if that's supposed to be doing something.
--PW
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From: Paul Winkler
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: entry.c and dynamic linking
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This sounds like a worthwhile project to me. I would certainly be
interested in the results. I have to work pretty hard just to get csound
instruments working, though-- no programming experience-- so that puts
me out of the development team.
--PW
>Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:02:48 +0100 (MET)
>From: Nicola Bernardini
>To: Csound mailing list
>Subject: Re: entry.c and dynamic linking
> Can you imagine what csound would be like with these
>constructs? It would have the same impact as switching from
>fortran-like Music V to csound itself!
>
>I am available to put some effort into this, but I would like to
>understand from this list if this is something effectively useful
>to the community (I won't do it for the sake of doing it, I don't
care).
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Yes, and it would appear to be going on, still - our government has recently set
plans to remove music from the list of required subjects to teach at primary and
secondary school. We have politicians who deem music not to be important enough!
Actually, there was a bit more to Plato's statement than immediately meets the eye.
He argued that any change in musical style or activity in a society would
immediately effect a change in that society's potitical and social structures - can
we really say he was wrong in that? Plato was emphasizing just how powerful music
can be (he also gives a famous example of music's healing power), and that that
power must be wielded with wisdom. I think his concern mirrors our contemporary
concern with regard to to some scientific research, 'tampering with nature'. Plato
would have said science was too important to be left in the hands of scientists!
Richard Dobson
mbpcpa@sprynet.com wrote:
> IMHO, the Pythagoreans are worthwhile to study as an object lesson in the sort
> of damage systematic philosophising about music can cause. I get a big kick out
> of old that old quote about music being too important for musicians. Of course
> Plato would have rather seen an elite of philosophising politicians dictating
> what everyone should or should not express or experience in the arts. Wouldn't
> that be fun! It gives me a vision of Mao-Tse-Tung hosting the Lawrence Welk
> show.
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I too am interested in this idea, though I don't think the cross-platform
issues should be under-estimated (different flavours of lex and yacc -this
comment also applies to the dynamic library question), both in the coding,
and in the matter of ongoing maintenance and development thereafter. It is,
of course, an enormous task, as no doubt most, if not all, of the current
Csound data structures and access routines might need to be recast to suit
the parser. Just how incrementally could such change be made? What would
be the minumun number of opcodes needed to excercise the parser?
I can imagine that the creation of a reasonably self-contained parser might
lead to a new range of Csound facilities - perhaps even a source-file
debugger to step through an orc file?
I would be interested, to the extent that my un-schooled knowledge permits,
to contribute to some work on this; apart from anythig else, I am keen to
learn to use flex and bison on a real project. The SAOL/MPEG-4 team at MIT:
http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds/mpeg4
have included yacc and lex scripts in the source distribution for saol - it
might be a useful model.
Richard Dobson
Paul Winkler wrote:
> This sounds like a worthwhile project to me. I would certainly be
> interested in the results. I have to work pretty hard just to get csound
> instruments working, though-- no programming experience-- so that puts
> me out of the development team.
>
> --PW
>
> >Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:02:48 +0100 (MET)
> >From: Nicola Bernardini
> >To: Csound mailing list
> >Subject: Re: entry.c and dynamic linking
>
> > Can you imagine what csound would be like with these
> >constructs? It would have the same impact as switching from
> >fortran-like Music V to csound itself!
> >
> >I am available to put some effort into this, but I would like to
> >understand from this list if this is something effectively useful
> >to the community (I won't do it for the sake of doing it, I don't
> care).
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:35:34 +0100
From: Gabriel Maldonado
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To: Ruggero Andrea Ruschioni
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Ruggero Andrea Ruschioni wrote:
> ... it seems that the kfreq argument on all waveguide opcodes is in
> fact not
> accepting kvalues. Example:
>
> kfreq line 220,2,440
> aflute wgflute 30000, kfreq, 0.32, 0.1, 0.1, 0.15, 5.925, 0.05, 1
> ^^^^
>
> This doesn't work for me, my csound gets stucked forever. If I
> substitute kfreq for an i-value it works.
> I tried winsound 3.473, RTsound1.9 and csound.exe 3.473 on a
> pentium133.
> Our Unix machines commited suicide today (friday 13th) so I didn't
> test
> this on SGIs, Linux or SUNs.
Try to initalize kfreq :
kfreq init 220 ;***** initialization of k-var
kfreq line 220,2,440
aflute wgflute 30000, kfreq, 0.32, 0.1, 0.1, 0.15, 5.925, 0.05, 1
> Also, on RTsound1.9 I was trying the following to test moscil:
> ------------------------------------------
> instr 1
> kchn = int (rnd(16))
> knum = int (rnd(127))
> kvel = int (rnd(127))
> kdur = rnd(2)
> kpause = rnd(1)
> moscil kchn, knum, kvel, kdur, kpause
> endin
> ------------------------------------------
>
> compiled with:
> csound -odevaudio -Q[x] orc sco
>
> with many serious and non-seriou experimantal values for [x]: it
> always
> crashes! (this program performed an illegal
> operation...blah...blah...)
>
> Whats the catch?
You must modify the instr in the following way:
;******** begin ********
;sinus.orc
sr=100
kr=100
ksmps=1
nchnls=1
instr 1
k1 init 16
k2 init 127
k3 init 127
kchn = int (rnd(k1))
knum = int (rnd(k2))
kvel = int (rnd(k3))
kdur = rnd(2)
kpause = rnd(1)
moscil kchn, knum, kvel, kdur, kpause
endin
;********* end ************
... and call RTsound with the following command line:
csound.exe -eYKQq file.orc file.sco
(also study carefully the RTsound readme file next time!!!)
I hope this will help you
--
Gabriel Maldonado
mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it
http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7041/home2.htm
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From: Gabriel Maldonado
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To: Nicola Bernardini
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Subject: Re: entry.c and dynamic linking
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Nicola Bernardini wrote:
> > Another thing I believe to be useful, is to open and close orchestra
> and
> > scores without having to restart Csound each time. In this case the
> time
> > of loading will be reduced and this will help us especially when
> writing
> > and testing new osc/scos. Any idea?
>
> well, this would imply running an eval loop and an in-line editor
> (a` la lisp, to be clear). Now *this* implies some work, especially
> considering the way the parser is presently written (and has always
> been, as far as I know): it's absolutely impossible to modify and
> maintain that section of code the way it is written. Which brings
> me to another subject: is the csound community interested in
> attempting
> a backward-compatible re-write of the parser using decent tools like
> lex (flex) and yacc (bison)? This would allow, after rebuilding the
> parser,
> much better possibilities in extending the language for important
> things like array variables, better conditionals, sub-patching
> (instrument stacking), parameter field passing with strings, numbers,
> variables, etc. Can you imagine what csound would be like with these
> constructs? It would have the same impact as switching from
> fortran-like Music V to csound itself!
>
> I am available to put some effort into this, but I would like to
> understand from this list if this is something effectively useful
> to the community (I won't do it for the sake of doing it, I don't
> care).
Very interesting...
I think that all these are very good things, of course only if backward
compatiblity with old orc/sco will be completely kept back.
BtW what are exactly lex, yacc, flex and bison? Do they work with all
platforms and with all C-C++ compilers?
Thanks
Gabriel
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