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Re: Whither music?

Date1998-02-13 23:29
FromHans Pelleboer
SubjectRe: Whither music?
> > P.S I think I like Wronsky's definition of music still best:
> > Music is intelligence embodied in sound.
> 
> 
> I do like this one very much - can you give me the reference?

Musical references can be found in his entire philosophical corpus;
try: Philosophie critique découverte par Kant --from 1803
or: Philosophie de l'infini --1814
Better still ( and a tome I would LOVE to have ) is the commentary written
by his pupil Camille Durutte; Technie harmonique, from 1876. This is, as
far as I know,
one of the first attempts to design a mathematics of music, that
incorporates 
classical harmony, which does not fall in what I would call the Helmholtz
trap;
i.e. ascribing musical characteristics to nature --Hearing waterfalls in C
major 
and what have you! Art is art, that is; artificial. Man made.


>  However, it works less well in one unusual circumstance, where plants
have
> been observed to prefer certain types of music, by leaning towards, or
away
> from, the speakers. I also recall seeing a program which featured a farmer
> playing music to his cows (I think it was Mozart), who showed their
> appreciation by an increased milk yield. Truly we are living in an Age of
> wonders!

I have always been troubled by `observations' of this kind.
Antropomorphizing
responses from non-humans is tricky at best and most times totally
fallacious. Response to stimuli does not equal interpretation;
interpretation does 
not equal a value judgement.
If I recall correctly, the choice of stimuli was between heavy metal and
classical chamber music. From a purely physical point., we are dealing with
two very different types of vibratory stimuli. With what I know now about 
biological membranes, it might all be explained by pretty crude mechanisms
on the cellular level.  And this does not even touch the topic of
interpretatio
Stemming from a family that has been breeding dairy cattle for more than 
ten generations, I must break a lance for the cow as an underestimated pet.
Cows
are surprisingly sensitive and they LOVE human attention --Mechanized
agriculture
comes straight from the pit, as far as I am concerned. Soft noises tend to
attract them strongly. Silence in nature is almost always accompanied by a
state of alarm.
Just as loud noises.  Metallica at 110 db SPL would probably have turned
the entire farm instantaneously into a buttermilk factory!!

Yours,

Hans Pelleboer



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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:16:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Nicola Bernardini 
Reply-To: Nicola Bernardini 
To: Csound mailing list 
Subject: csound parser (was Re: entry.c and dynamic linking)
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Dear csound list,

thank you for your kind feedback. I was very pleased that these ideas
sound interesting to people that are csound old-timers and that have
already contributed in many ways to the growth of csound. I will try
to reply below to individual questions, and then I'll make a proposal.

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Paul Winkler wrote:

[snip]
> interested in the results. I have to work pretty hard just to get csound 
> instruments working, though-- no programming experience-- so that puts 
> me out of the development team.

well, you could be part of the testing team (if such thing existed)...

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Richard Dobson wrote:

[snip]
> I too am interested in this idea, though I don't think the cross-platform
> issues should be under-estimated (different flavours of lex and yacc -this
> comment also applies to the dynamic library question), both in the coding,
> and in  the matter of ongoing maintenance and development thereafter. It is,
> of course, an enormous task, as no doubt most, if not all, of the current
> Csound data structures and access routines might need to be recast to suit
> the parser. Just how incrementally could such  change be made?  What would
> be the minumun number of opcodes needed to excercise the parser?

1) I don't under-estimate different platforms, I am ready to discuss to
   any depth how they should be handled (among other things, porting software
   is what I do for a living...); besides, the different flavours of lex
   and yacc is easy to handle: let's just use flex and bison which are good
   and quite standard lex and yaccs. These are ported under any known platform
   (even mac, I believe...), and even if they were'nt, the output of these
   tools is plain c code: those who don't have lex and yacc won't be able
   to make changes to the syntax and grammar of csound, but will still be
   able to compile the parser with a standard C compiler

2) I don't think it is such an enormous task: I think that, for the sake of
   making everything work, we should not *touch* even in the smallest detail
   csound data structures (if needed, these can be enclosed in other data
   structures); I think this is mandatory to be backward compatible. I think
   the parser could and should access the entry data structure just as it is
   (right after, we could implement a fast hash search of the entry array
   to speed up things - but this can be postponed, and if somebody can help
   there: I am not good at these things)

3) thus, we can very well include all the opcodes right away, because
   we just look in the entry table, right?

> 
> I can imagine that the creation of a reasonably self-contained parser might
> lead to a new range of Csound facilities - perhaps even a source-file
> debugger to step through an orc file?

very nice idea indeed. Now that is a fairly difficult thing to do, at least
for my abilities. But once somebody wrote something like that,
it would be very easy to make a separate utility (one of those -U things).
One thing that is certain is that error checking could be made to be
much better and informative. (It is also true that error checking is
one of the most difficult parsing activities: now that should not be
underestimated).
Another nice thing would be to use the parsers for visual display,
or to go to/from nice programs like Miller Puckette's PD.

> 
> I would be interested, to the extent that my un-schooled knowledge  permits,
> to contribute to some work on this; apart from anythig else, I am keen to
> learn to use flex and bison on a real project. The SAOL/MPEG-4 team at MIT:
> http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds/mpeg4
> have included yacc and lex scripts in the source distribution for saol -  it
> might be a useful model.

Actually, that was exactly what I had in mind: let's pick up the lex and
yacc files from saol as an inspiration and let's produce an initial csound
parser. I have already studied that code, and to tell you frankly, I
don't like it very much: I don't want to be presumptous, but I think we
should/could do much better and I'll try to demonstrate that. It is a
useful model, though, and we'll certainly make use of it.
Thanks, Mr. Dobson, for your words.

On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Gabriel Maldonado wrote:

[snip]
> I think that all these are very good things, of course only if backward
> compatiblity with old orc/sco will be completely kept back.

of course: this is absolutely essential *BEFORE* writing any extension.

> I think that all these are very good things, of course only if backward
> compatiblity with old orc/sco will be completely kept back.
> BtW what are exactly lex, yacc, flex and bison? Do they work  with all
> platforms and with all C-C++ compilers?

lex is a lexical analyzer generator, a finite-state automaton generator
which is able to produce c code that does lexical scanning on standard
input. Flex is the GNU public domain lex, available all over. yacc
is a grammar generator, and bison is its GNU counterpart. yacc too
produces c code, so as I said, these tools produce code that can
be compiled with standard c compilers. I believe the GNU extensions
would allow to englobe lexer and parser in C++ objects, a nifty feature
to have multiple parsers, and very useful for us in order to produce
different parsers for the orc and the sco files (I'll look into that).
These tools come out of the best intelligence products back in the seventies
in the creation of unix platforms (you know: Kernighan, Bentley, Aho,
Ullman, all these geniuses which were working at AT&T along with our
guru Max Mathews). If you don't know them, be ready to meet some
very very powerful tools. Besides, you might be able to find Kernighan
documentation on the net (the famous papers) and there is a very
good book on lex/yacc from O'Reilly (called "lex & yacc", what would you
know).

Ok: I think all these nice answers are a good enough stimulus to start
working. Let me tell you what I am going to do:

1) I will try to produce a testing parser for orcs (let's start from orcs,
   if you agree) *as quickly as I can*. I'll try to include everything,
   but I think it is mandatory now to be very very quick, otherwise
   this thing will go stale... The testing parser will be a separate
   application that just groks orchestras and if it works, it should never barf.
   It should just report on standard output what it is reading on
   standard input (that would be enough to understand wheter it works
   or not).

2) All the interested people should compile and test the parser with
   their orchestra and report any errors and bugs. What especially
   worries me is error reporting: the parser should be tested against
   anything: wrong syntaxes, random files, binary input, everything.

3) then we'll attack the score part (as a matter of fact, if somebody
   would like to attack that in parallel, it's fine...).
   To produce an intelligent parser for sco files, I need some informed
   advice on whether it would be useful to run the sco parser on the sorted
   sco file or on the original sco file: I believe the first option poses limits
   on what could be the future types included in sco files (would it be
   able to handle string constants for example, an interesting extension);
   while the second option would imply re-building sort and extract
   features, a useless task IMHO (if it's not broken, don't
   fix it, an old programming adagio).

Sorry for the very long post.

I'll be right back with the goods

Nicola
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
 
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture.  Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.




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To: Nicola Bernardini 
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: csound parser (was Re: entry.c and dynamic linking) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:16:59 +0100."
              
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:48:51 EST
From: David Ratajczak 
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> 
> 2) I don't think it is such an enormous task: I think that, for the sake of
>    making everything work, we should not *touch* even in the smallest detail
>    csound data structures (if needed, these can be enclosed in other data
>    structures); I think this is mandatory to be backward compatible. I think

I agree that getting rid of the parsing code in csound in favor of a
more flexible bison/flex approach is a good idea.  I also agree that
this can be done with very little change to the existing data
structures.  However, I think that in the (near) future, it would be a
good idea to consider dramatic structural changes to csound.

Problems with current csound implementation:

1) It's organic code written by many people over a long period of
time.  Little documentation is available to make things clearer.

2) It's written in a style conducive to saving memory and could
perhaps better utilize the speed of current processors if it paid less
attention to memory management.  

3) It lacks extensibility.  Adding opcodes seems prohibitively
esoteric, and the messy implementation is the major reason why it is
so difficult to extend the csound language itself (for instruments to
turn on other instruments, to include local state variables within
instruments, to support opcode arrays, etc.)  It seems the creators of
the MPEG4 standard have thought this through.  The orc/sco files I've
seen for SAOL/MPEG4 seems to have a sort of "csound++" flavor.  I
especially like the ability to define new opcodes in the orc file.
However, they have made a number of design decisions that have made
realtime performance implausible.

4) It's written in C (ugh..)  I am considering undertaking a total
rewrite in C++ that would alleviate many of the current problems.  I'd
be interested to hear ideas from other people as far as object
hierarchy, etc..  A good rewrite *should* have future extensibility as
a primary goal.

>    the parser could and should access the entry data structure just as it is
>    (right after, we could implement a fast hash search of the entry array
>    to speed up things - but this can be postponed, and if somebody can help
>    there: I am not good at these things)
> 

This is trivial to do with the builtin hashtable class in the libg++
library.

> > I think that all these are very good things, of course only if backward
> > compatiblity with old orc/sco will be completely kept back.
> 
> of course: this is absolutely essential *BEFORE* writing any extension.
> 

For the time being I would agree with this.  In the future, if any
major changes are made to the csound language, it would be relatively
trivial to maintain backward compatibility simply by providing a
translator.

> 1) I will try to produce a testing parser for orcs (let's start from orcs,
>    if you agree) *as quickly as I can*. I'll try to include everything,
>    but I think it is mandatory now to be very very quick, otherwise
>    this thing will go stale... The testing parser will be a separate
>    application that just groks orchestras and if it works, it should never barf.
>    It should just report on standard output what it is reading on
>    standard input (that would be enough to understand wheter it works
>    or not).
> 

Just remember that people in the future may be building on whatever
code is written.

> produce an intelligent parser for sco files, I need some informed
> advice on whether it would be useful to run the sco parser on the
> sorted sco file or on the original sco file: I believe the first
> option poses limits
>    on what could be the future types included in sco files (would it be
>    able to handle string constants for example, an interesting extension);
>    while the second option would imply re-building sort and extract
>    features, a useless task IMHO (if it's not broken, don't
>    fix it, an old programming adagio).
> 

Unfortunately, right now csound reads the sorted sco file line by line
during actual processing.  This would have to be changed before you
get fancy with pre-processing.

__________________________________________________________________________
David Ratajczak 
Web:    http://web.mit.edu/dratajcz/
E-mail: dratajcz@mit.edu



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From: "Matt J. Ingalls" 
To: David Ratajczak 
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Subject: new csound/parser/SAOL/strings in sco
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seems like we had a similar thread a few months back...
ive sort of skimmed the recent posts, so i might have not caught
everything, but:

	here are my thoughts and *personal* wishes for a "new" csound:

> > 2) I don't think it is such an enormous task: I think that, for the sake of
> >    making everything work, we should not *touch* even in the smallest detail
> >    csound data structures (if needed, these can be enclosed in other data
> >    structures); I think this is mandatory to be backward compatible. I think

> good idea to consider dramatic structural changes to csound.

> rewrite in C++ that would alleviate many of the current problems.  I'd
> be interested to hear ideas from other people as far as object

	i would propose the exact opposite:  start from the ground up by
rewriting the (at least basic) opcodes as a platform independant Shared
Library in C (if this is done right, will secure the longevity of the code
-
how much can an oscilator change? - plus open-ended for many types of
applications).  then can write a synthesis engine that will make the
opcode calls - a csound orc/sco parser can sit on that.

	yes having orc/sco backwards compatibility is essential,
but i usually want something else:	there are
so many users of CSound that are programmers too, there
must be alot of you who share my experience: wanting to at times just use
CSound (or even something of a higher level - maybe a GUI) and some times
wanting to either temporarily drop down into C/C++ or just write your own
code that makes certain calls to CSound (so far
the only thing we can really do is write score generators and write our
own opcodes)

 > the MPEG4 standard have thought this through. The orc/sco files
I've > seen for SAOL/MPEG4 seems to have a sort of "csound++" flavor.  I
> However, they have made a number of design decisions that have made
> realtime performance implausible.

	Can someone explain to me what is the *intent* of SAOL/MPEG4??  Is
it indeed a "new Csound"?  i was thinking it was intended as sort of a
real-time java for sound?  is SAOL designed to be a composer's tool or for
(commercial) developers? please explain..

 > 
> >    on what could be the future types included in sco files (would it be
> >    able to handle string constants for example, an interesting extension);

	i actually just last night was looking into this (for existing
CSound) i was going to try something a bit simpler by making a GEN02-kind
of thing but with strings for values.  (this is to have a lookup table for
a soundfile so i dont have to rename all my files to soundin.xx)  anybody
ever do anything like this?

-matt






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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:23:52 +0100
From: Gabriel Maldonado 
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I think that any Csound change should increase its portability and,
above all, its efficiency in terms of speed. So I'm not completely sure
that a total C++ port of Csound is the best idea. I think it is better
to keep the critical parts of code in C. Also, some time ago somebody
observed that C++ language is not a real standard, at least until now.

With respect of adding new features to the ORC language, I suggest the
following things:

1) the possibility to implement multi-arguments functions and
subroutines that can be written directly in the orc code with following
form:
;****CALLING A FUNCTION (named 'anyfunc1' in this example)
a1    oscili    anyfunc1(a2,a3,a4) * kamp, anyfunc2(a3,a4,a5),  1

;**** BODY OF A FUNCTION
         func      anyfunc1(aparm1,kparm2,iparm3,kparm4)
avalue   =         aparm1+sqrt(parm2)
avalue2  oscili    avalue, kparm2 ,iparm3
         areturn   avalue2 * kparm4
         endfunc

;**** CALLING A SUB (named 'anysub' in this example)
aoutarg1, aoutarg2   anysub	 ainarg1,ainarg2, kinarg3

;**** BODY OF A SUB
          sub      anysub(aoutarg1,aoutarg2,ainarg1,kinarg2,inarg3)
aoutarg1  oscili   1,ainarg1,1
aoutarg2  oscili   1,kinarg2,1
aoutarg3  oscili   1,inarg3,1
          endsub	
	
The difference beetween functions and subs is that function can be
called from within an expression and allow only one output argument
implicitly sent to the expression context. Note that the opcodes
areturn, kreturn and ireturn will decide the type of return value of a
func. 
Subs allow more output arguments but should be called in its own line of
code, they don't use 'areturn' 'kreturn' or 'ireturn'.
All functions and subs should be compiled as inline possibly storing the
result into temporary variables for keeping speed efficiecy. 

2) the possibility of turning on and turnig off an instrument from
another instrument and/or to define its duration into the caller instr.

3) standard structured languages conditional flow of control statements:

if...elseif...else...endif,
switch...case...default..endswitch,
for...endfor,
while...wend,
do...while
(all operating at both i and  k-rate)

4) semi-global variables, shared within several instances of the same
instr during the performance, but not within instrs of different number.

5) multi-dimensional tables and gen functions

6) multi-dimensional arrays which can be accessed from within an
expression:
    ;******EXAMPLE:
    a1    =        array[a2,a3] * 8 + koffset


obviously this will make tables redundant but they should be kept for
backward compatibility. Furthermore these arrays should be enabled for
both read and write operations.

7) more ideas......(from Csound community)



SCO language additions:

1) using symbolic constants as i and f p-fields
2) sending string values to the orchestra
3) macros containing a block of any number of notes of the same instr,
processed with arithmetic and logical operators by user calling
parameters 
4) variables
5) functions and subroutines
6) arithmetic and logical operators
7) standard structured conditional and iterative statements
8) more ideas.....(from Csound community)



P.S. It would be very useful a documentation of data structure members
and functions used in Csound parser and engine. If anyone has explored
and learned them, is invited to share his knowledge with Csound
community. I will post my (very limited) part of comprehension in some
later message if you agree.

--
Gabriel Maldonado

mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it
http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7041/home2.htm




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Subject: Re: unwanted "line" sweepback
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk
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>I try to pitchdown a loscil unit with a line opcode but it sweeps back
>pitching up !!
>I don't understand this because i clearly set the idur of the line to p3
>and not p3/2 or something...
>
>Please explain me this fellow Csounders...
>
>orc & sco are included below and the needed soundfile was 710kb, a little
>too much...so create
>a soundfile yourself of 363791 sampleframes at 16bit at 44100 Hz.
>
>
>David.
>
>*** ORC *********************
>*******************************
>sr = 44100
>kr = 441
>ksmps  = 100
>nchnls = 1
>
>;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-------
>; 
>; loscil test instrument.
>;
>;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-------
>
>instr 1
>
>
>khold oscil 50,0.3,2
>kvib randh 1,abs(khold)
>kdown line 1,p3,-5
This is the problem. line will output values that start at 1 and go to -5.
As soon as it goes below 0, it effectively starts up again. (A negative
frequency is the same as a positive one, but with an inversion of phase - in
other words, it sounds the same.) Your orchestra should work fine if you
replaced the line with:

kdown line 1, p3, .125  ;cause a 4 octave drop over p3 seconds.



----------------------------------
Russell F. Pinkston, D.M.A.
Associate Professor of Composition
Director, Electronic Music Studios
School of Music
The University of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX 78712

[512-471-0865]


Date1998-02-13 23:44
FromRichard Dobson
SubjectRe: Whither music?

Hans Pelleboer wrote:

>
>
> P.S I think I like Wronsky's definition of music still best:
> Music is intelligence embodied in sound.


I do like this one very much - can you give me the reference?
 However, it works less well in one unusual circumstance, where plants have
been observed to prefer certain types of music, by leaning towards, or away
from, the speakers. I also recall seeing a program which featured a farmer
playing music to his cows (I think it was Mozart), who showed their
appreciation by an increased milk yield. Truly we are living in an Age of
wonders!

Richard Dobson

Date1998-02-14 01:10
FromEli Brandt
SubjectRe: trajectories
Hans Pelleboer wrote:
> Imagine a spiral like a cochleoid; i.e. a curve that is described in polar
> coordinates as  r(theta)= r*(sin(theta)/(theta))
> If  an arbitrary straight line would cross this curve, what equation would
> describe its crossing points? The problem could be generalized as:
> how to translate the description of curves in rectangular coordinates to
> polar
> coordinates and vice versa?

            /|
           / |
        r /  | y
         /   |      and the angle in there is theta
        /_\__|
           x

so      x = r cos theta
        y = r sin theta

or      r = sqrt(x^2 + y^2)
    theta = arctan(y/x) + quadrantfudging


a line is       ax + by = 1
substituting,   a(r cos theta) + b(r sin theta) = 1
or              r = 1 / (a cos theta + b sin theta)

ideally we could just solve this simultaneously with your equation
                r'= k sin theta' / theta'

but there's a catch: often not all intersections are simultaneous
solutions of the two.  for example, if r' = r and theta' = theta+2pi,
that's still an intersection.  you end up having to allow
                r' =  r,   theta' = theta + pi 2n
 and also       r' = -r,   theta' = theta + pi (2n+1)

in this case, that results in
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta)       -  theta        = 0
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta + pi)  + (theta +  pi) = 0
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta - pi)  + (theta -  pi) = 0
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta + 2pi) - (theta + 2pi) = 0
(a cos theta + b sin theta) sin(theta - 2pi) - (theta - 2pi) = 0
 .
 .
 .

etc.

the easiest thing is to graph the curves to see how many solutions
there are to find from this infinite family of equations.  here
they're analytically intractable, so you'll need the graph anyway to
get guesses for your solver.

-- 
     Eli Brandt  |  eli+@cs.cmu.edu  |  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/

Date1998-02-17 22:31
FromErik Spjut
SubjectRe: convolution
At 10:56 PM -0800 2/17/98, Hans Pelleboer wrote:

>For very short convolutions, I might even cook up a simple `delay
>+ multiplication' script, without altering or adding anything to the code.
>Trouble is that I would like to do LONG convolutions, like recorded
>reverberation responses, for example. It is possible, of course, to use
>an external application, solely devoted to that one task, but it would be
>much more elegant to have it incorporated in csound itself.
>Any suggestions?

Use convolve. Implementing the direct convolution sum for more than about
128 taps is foolish (Csound does fine up to about 20 taps). The convolve
opcode implements the orders-of-magnitude faster procedure of taking FFT's,
multiplying spectra, and taking inverse FFT's. You do have to account for
the delay, and pre-analyze the impulse-response file, but the manual has
the formula for the delay and the pre-analysis is very fast. If you have
the memory, you can easily do 10 second recorded reverb responses with
convolve, and it will run about
400,000 times faster than the direct convolution sum. The results, except
for the delay, are identical. Why would you possibly want to do direct
convolution? What am I missing?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik Spjut (rhymes with cute) - Acting Director,The Center for Design Education
and/or Associate Professor of Engineering
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711  USA
Erik_Spjut@hmc.edu      Ph & Voice mail (909) 607-3890      Fax (909) 621-8967


Date1998-02-24 19:09
Fromcharlie
SubjectRe: new language proposal
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Hans Pelleboer wrote:

> Hello Charlie,
> 
> 
> 
> > How about new synths that don't use midi?  Real world case in point:
> > The Hub.  I think musicians are starving for some interesting new
> 
> Could you tell me what  `The Hub' is ?

The Hub is a San Fransico (sp?) based band that has a novel approach
to a collabrative environment for musicians.  They use midi cables,
(and maybe ethernet?) to network each piece of the musician's gear
to everybody else on the network.  Then the musician's specify
tempos, timbre's, and notes to the musical environment.  Each
participant is allowed to change the composition in realtime.
it produces a very interesting improve environment for musicians.
I talked with them when they came to Georgia Tech, and he said
that they used some C and a lot of FORTH for programming their
clients and servers.

Unfortunately I can't seem to find any of the links I had
to websites.

charlie



						        Charles Hubbard
   		 	          Internet: charlie@felix.cc.gatech.edu
 ". . .the pope talks a lot about sex, of which he knows nothing. . ."  
	- Robert Anton Wilson










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charlie wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Hans Pelleboer wrote:
> 
> > Hello Charlie,
> >
> >
> >
> > > How about new synths that don't use midi?  Real world case in point:
> > > The Hub.  I think musicians are starving for some interesting new
> >
> > Could you tell me what  `The Hub' is ?
> 
	The Hub was a network band, which unfortunately just broke up recently.  The
members were:  Chris Brown (Mills), John Bischoff (Mills), Mark Trayle
(CalArts), Phil Stone, Tim Perkis, and Scott Gresham-Lancaster.  Their last
concert (which I participated in as a technician) was an internet performance
with players at three locations: Mills, CalArts, and the Institute for Studies
in the Arts at ASU.  Chris and Scott are planning to continue with the
internet-based approach, probably with myself and perhaps others.
	For the internet communication, we plan to use some sort of packetized data
format using IP.  A packet would contain a title, an originator, a timestamp,
and some data.  We would use my software GrainWave as the synthesizer, so what
is passed by IP is only control data.  GrainWave presently only accepts MIDI,
but I am going to add direct support for the IP messages, which would then no
longer be restricted to MIDI data types.  Most useful will be floating point
data for control values.
	Though GrainWave is only a Mac program, I plan to write listener versions for
both Mac and Windows, so that you can tune into the concert from anywhere, and
with some pieces, even participate.  The key is that only control data is
passed over the internet - all of the rendering is done locally by the
listener.  So there is no need to worry about the speed of the connection or
the poor sound quality of streamed audio.
-- 
Mike Berry
mikeb@nmol.com
http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb





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Message-Id: <34F32F70.F452A64C@cc.gatech.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:37:04 -0500
From: Jarrell Pair 
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> >
> > Could you tell me what  `The Hub' is ?
>
>
> Unfortunately I can't seem to find any of the links I had
> to websites.

Try:

http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/gallery/radio-idt/performance/hub.html

http://www.artifact.com/wreckball.html

http://www.artifact.com/hub.html

Cheers,

Jarrell



--

--------------------------------------------------------
Jarrell Pair
Research Assistant, Virtual Environments Group
Assistant Director, AudioLab
Graphics, Visualization, and Usability Center
Georgia Institute of Technology
Web:   http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/people/jarrell.pair
Phone: (404)-894-4144 (Lab)
Fax:    (404)-894-0673
--------------------------------------------------------





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	Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:59:50 +0100
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:59:49 +0100 (MET)
From: Nicola Bernardini 
To: Csound mailing list 
Subject: CALL FOR WORKS (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:25:18 +0100
From: crm 
To: aimi@belva.infomus.dist.unige.it
Subject: CALL FOR WORKS

MUSICA SCIENZA '98 (Music - Science 98)
                1 - 6 june 1998 - ROME - ITALY


General information

The MUSICA- SCIENZA '98 International Forum, will be held in Rome from
June 1 to June 6.

The forum organized by CRM - Centro Ricerche Musicali includes several
events:
- a one day Colloquium on arguments related to music and science;
- sound installations;
- tape music concerts;
- live performances.

The argument of this year is "noise"; the influence of noise in every
day life, in culture, in music.
Title: "Noise.Caos and complexity. Music and scientific approaches".

The call for works:

TAPE MUSIC
Composers are invited to submit tape music (electroacoustic or computer
music) for playback in a particular and original environment equipped
with special devices for sound diffusion (based on metal trasductors).
New works inspired to the above theme are preferred. They must be no
longer than 7 minutes in lenght (to facilitate the presentation of a
larger number of pieces) composed specifically for the electroacoustic
tape music medium.

All submissions must be on audio CD or DAT (44.1 Khz) and include short
program notes and curriculum vitae on composer involved.
Technical information may also be included. All submissions for tape
music must be postmarked no later than 15 April 1998.

LIVE PERFORMANCES

Proposal for live performance of electroacoustic music (1 or 2 soloists)
will also be considered. Unfortunately CRM cannot provide or assist with
transportation, lodging or other expenses, only a modest honorarium for
performances can be offered.

All submissions must include a recording of the piece, a complete
description of technical needs and program notes and curricula on
composers/performers.

All submissions for live performances must be postmarked no later than
31 March 1998.

COLLOQUIUM
The papers are on CRM invitation but it is possible to evaluate a
restrict  number of proposals of particular interest.
All submission for papers (an abstract of 1 page) must be received no
later than 31 March 1998.

Please send all the submissions to: 

CRM - Centro Ricerche Musicali
Musica-Sienza 98
Via Lamarmora, 18  
00185 Roma - Italy
The abstract presentation can be sent by e-mail at the following adress:
crm.it@usa.net





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From: David Madole 
Subject: The Hub
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:01:12 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: madole@mills.edu
In-Reply-To:  from "charlie" at Feb 24, 98 02:09:08 pm
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> > Could you tell me what  `The Hub' is ?
> 
> The Hub is a San Fransico (sp?) based band that has a novel approach
> to a collabrative environment for musicians.  They use midi cables,

The Hub *was* an **Oakland** based band.  There is actually a picture
of them here at Mills (in **Oakland**) many years ago in Curtis Rhodes
"Computer Music Tutorial" book.

Oakland is a city across the bay from San Francisco and is the largest
city in what is usually referred to as the "East Bay".  Other
institutions, besides the Hub, which were or are based in Oakland are
the Black Panthers and the Hell's Angels.  Currently residing in
Oakland are arguably the three worst teams in American baseball,
football and basketball.  Oakland has been said to suffer from a minor
inferiority complex.

Dave

Dave Madole
Technical Director, Center for Contemporary Music
Mills College
Oakland, CA 94613
510-430-2336

madole@mills.edu



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>include short
>program notes and curriculum vitae on composer involved.

>program notes and curricula on
>composers/performers.

=3D=3D akadem!k.w2nk.fasc!zm





no!sz =3D !n4mat.i\o.n. beg!n no!sz




post b.low sndz c=FCber
az 1-l_g!kl
kon.sekuenss
asc!! =3D mu.s!k

m1d!knTrldt3kxT

                                bzumppzumb

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>>Mu/ic is ma\| by/musi      \  /-\-\-\   we/---------------/nit/-\/of
>>"m|sician" s\ i/ incl      /-/     \--\--/it record/---------/rec\rder
>>we|may as we|\-/nclud /---/   \\       \-----\----/              |
>>8-\------------------/          \\     /---/  \----\             |
>>Oops....Paul\                  /------/            \\            /
>              \              /-/    \                \           /
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>at best.  One p\oblem    //    /         ws the line, i/ one bel/eves
>that a line sho\ld /---//-----\          d the guild //ntality//f those
>who |-----------\-/tri/    //  \-\       n notion of/'musicia/', but
>if a \ig/\ficant\numbe\------------------------\eren/ methods/or
>ideas\fo||making \what  //    //         sic, th\\ /ho  re //y of us
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>made. In\|hich ca-e a   \\/              r sati/fie\|one\condition for
>it to be |rt (rather t   //              ther o| /---------------\actice
>regard it\as music is    /\-\              /----/  |      \      \-\
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|fiel/ reco|ding.  I ma |     //    //    ing te/-\ique, but|I probabl/
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>a s\\ndsc/pe, or \\ss/        \/   /-/    Rue's 'Ocean\Flows'/- Tall  \
>Popp\\s T/036, come\/t       //   /          /-        \   /-\        \
>    | \ /           \--\    /  /-/         ////         \ / /\         \
>If t/e \ounds were a|t  \---/-/ \      /--///ormed, etc.\I'\ p\obably   \
>cal/ i/ \cousmatic m|s     /    \\    /  //rne, 'Tao' - D\f usi\n i     |
>MeD\A /ME\-9311-CD) |     /      \-\///-/                 \    \\       |
>    \/    \         \\  //        //\/                    |      \      |
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>of / s\\g, \'d have n/\        //         music. (Disco Inf\rno, |DI   /
>Go|\op'\-\Ro\gh Tr/-/-------------------------------\--\-  \\    \   //
> /---------\-\---/-/---/   \/                      /---//\---\\   \/-/
//owever\/hes\-------------------------------------/r me/th\-----\
\--\w/-\ I'd love to he                   om other list/members.  \-\
>   \/  \--------\                          /---------/------------------\
>                 \------------------------/         /                \--/
>Shannon      /------\                              /
>            //       \--\                         /
>There's a //ok by the    \--\            und By Ar/ists' (eds Dan
>Lander an/ Micah Lexie       \--\        o/------/ the "lack of
>informat/o|--\d critic           \---\---/g an art of sound" as
>distinc/ f|om \------\           /-/  \-\ncluding Cage, Viola, Lucier,
>Whiteh/ad,|Westerkamp,\------\   |       \--\k I'll move it to the
>top/-----------------\        \--/           \------\
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|   \-----\             /---------/      /        |
|          \-----------/                /         |
|  !  apply!ng anti-aesthet!k !dealz ov 1-purgat!v v!olenss
|     2dze kourss ov dze aesthet!k
\-\

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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> what
**** Command 'what' not recognized.
>>>>
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>>>>














          -----||||---___-.....
       The traditional Macintosh error codes are displayed like this:
       0F0003           w e b . g F x . a u d ! o . k 0 d E . d e s ! g n
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|-   |                   |
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:23:18 -0800 (PST)
From: "Matt J. Ingalls" 
To: madole@mills.edu
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: The Hub
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> The Hub *was* an **Oakland** based band.  There is actually a picture
> of them here at Mills (in **Oakland**) many years ago in Curtis Rhodes
> "Computer Music Tutorial" book.

	actually i think that is pre-Hub: "League of Automated Music
Composers" (or something like that)

	may i also through in a bit of the negative:  although the
LAMC/Hub in concept is very cool, i have yet to hear anything from them
that is really cool - which is suprising since some of their solo improv
electronics (most notably Tim Perkis, John Bichoff, and [most recent]
Chris Brown) is VERY COOL. (could be due to overuse of MAX and commercial
synths???)

	and im not just saying this because i have a upcoming gigs with
Perkis(+John Shirba+Gino Rabair) @ the Sweat Shop (SanFran) March 7 and
Seattle Creative Improv Festival (april 29)

	and im not saying that just to plug our gigs..

	and im not just saying this cuz im sick of DLL/parser threads..


from Oakland,
-matt




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Can there be defined general guidelines or rules-of-thumb to the synthesis 
of already known sounds?
If I have a wav file of the sound I want to reach, I can use a HETRO/adsyn 
combination to recreate it in the context of a csound instr, but its sort of 
like cheating, if you know what I mean. Cant those utilities be used to 
retrieve info from the soundwave itself, that would allow us to recreate it 
using just sound generation/shaping opcodes?

As a little parentesis, what really is the use of PVANAL/pvoc? Sure I get 
interesting sounds from it, but I have no control over results...

pedro



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Pete wrote:
>i would say that as a general rule, it is good to know as much as possible
>about anything. but even a little knowledege is better than none.  as far 
as math
>goes i have had several years of calculus and differential equations, from 
high
>school through college.  but the majority of math that i use in computer 
music
>revolves around basic algebra
[snip]
> twiddling knobs can be very effective even if you
>dont know what the knobs are actually doing

IMO, music is mostly and primarly a physical interaction. The body reacts to 
music at a very intuitive level, either if you play it, or you listen to it.
Although I subscribe the above "it is good to know as much as possible" 
comment (it doesnt take any room, either, unless you count three shelves 
full of books :)), for _musical_ purposes solely, its completely irrelevant 
what the opcodes do internally. Merely the response one gets from the 
various parameters (or knobs) is important. But  its usually easier to 
understand the parameters function if you have some insight of the internal 
works of the opcode
Its more or less like, say, a jazz pianist. Soloing over the changes 
involves a lot of math. Scales, modes, chords, harmony in general *is* 
mathematical. But you wont find a jazz player to be thinking math at that 
time. He thought about it previously, so that he/she can leave that to the 
subconscious part of the brain, and use the more limited conscious part, to 
focus on the groove

pedro



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Tolve wrote:

>as a perpetual newbie, i have no complaints about the assistance available
>on this list. or the price. but do well understand the frustrations
>encountered by non-programmers. And have noted that the classic bang the
>head against the wall technique must be practiced with a *brick* wall in
>order to be fully effective.

I have no further ambition than to be a "perpetual newbie". My appologies to 
everyone, for so veemently demonstrating my anxiety for knowledge.
As a lot of complicated matters I've decided to study during my life, its 
the actual pursuit of knowledge and interaction with similarly concerned 
people that is rewarding in the first place.

pedro



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From: David Schuyeteneer 
To: csound mailing list 
Subject: Fw: back-synthesizing
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:31:30 +0100
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> Can there be defined general guidelines or rules-of-thumb to the
synthesis 
> of already known sounds?
> If I have a wav file of the sound I want to reach, I can use a
HETRO/adsyn 
> combination to recreate it in the context of a csound instr, but its sort
of 
> like cheating, if you know what I mean. Cant those utilities be used to 
> retrieve info from the soundwave itself, that would allow us to recreate
it 
> using just sound generation/shaping opcodes?
> 
> As a little parentesis, what really is the use of PVANAL/pvoc? Sure I get

> interesting sounds from it, but I have no control over results...


Recreating real-world recorded sounds by artificial shaping a
synthgenerated sound is
impossible.......Because the real world sounds are mostly so much
influenced by "neighbouring"
sounds, or at least contains extremely subtle and complex variations as
well on amplitude and pitch
level, that it would be a totally absurd task recreating them using
synthetic shaping......

hetro and pvoc are there to simplify the tasks, but it's kind of cheating
indeed....

David

Date1998-02-24 21:01
FromDavid Madole
SubjectThe Hub
> > Could you tell me what  `The Hub' is ?
> 
> The Hub is a San Fransico (sp?) based band that has a novel approach
> to a collabrative environment for musicians.  They use midi cables,

The Hub *was* an **Oakland** based band.  There is actually a picture
of them here at Mills (in **Oakland**) many years ago in Curtis Rhodes
"Computer Music Tutorial" book.

Oakland is a city across the bay from San Francisco and is the largest
city in what is usually referred to as the "East Bay".  Other
institutions, besides the Hub, which were or are based in Oakland are
the Black Panthers and the Hell's Angels.  Currently residing in
Oakland are arguably the three worst teams in American baseball,
football and basketball.  Oakland has been said to suffer from a minor
inferiority complex.

Dave

Dave Madole
Technical Director, Center for Contemporary Music
Mills College
Oakland, CA 94613
510-430-2336

madole@mills.edu

Date1998-02-24 23:23
From"Matt J. Ingalls"
SubjectRe: The Hub
> The Hub *was* an **Oakland** based band.  There is actually a picture
> of them here at Mills (in **Oakland**) many years ago in Curtis Rhodes
> "Computer Music Tutorial" book.

	actually i think that is pre-Hub: "League of Automated Music
Composers" (or something like that)

	may i also through in a bit of the negative:  although the
LAMC/Hub in concept is very cool, i have yet to hear anything from them
that is really cool - which is suprising since some of their solo improv
electronics (most notably Tim Perkis, John Bichoff, and [most recent]
Chris Brown) is VERY COOL. (could be due to overuse of MAX and commercial
synths???)

	and im not just saying this because i have a upcoming gigs with
Perkis(+John Shirba+Gino Rabair) @ the Sweat Shop (SanFran) March 7 and
Seattle Creative Improv Festival (april 29)

	and im not saying that just to plug our gigs..

	and im not just saying this cuz im sick of DLL/parser threads..


from Oakland,
-matt

Date1998-04-14 15:11
FromRichard Karpen
SubjectRe: Repeat? What about loops?

> e.g. generate polymorphically perverse polyrhythms, generating complex
> structures out of a few `cells' , reinvent the hemiola, allow for multiple
> meters in the same score, without requiring multiple compilations 
> -- help!, this starts to sound like we finally would be able to actually 
> COMPOSE something with this stuff!

Try Rick Taube's Common Music. It's a Lisp based score language that can
output Csound scorefiles as well as many other formats. It's GREAT!

Richard Karpen


Date1998-04-14 16:32
FromMicheal Allen Thompson
SubjectRe: Repeat? What about loops?
Or write your own score maker app in C, C++, basic, Visual Basic, Perl,
Java, shell script , etc.....

Michael

On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Richard Karpen wrote:

> 
> 
> > e.g. generate polymorphically perverse polyrhythms, generating complex
> > structures out of a few `cells' , reinvent the hemiola, allow for multiple
> > meters in the same score, without requiring multiple compilations 
> > -- help!, this starts to sound like we finally would be able to actually 
> > COMPOSE something with this stuff!
> 
> Try Rick Taube's Common Music. It's a Lisp based score language that can
> output Csound scorefiles as well as many other formats. It's GREAT!
> 
> Richard Karpen
> 
> 
> 

Date1998-04-14 18:48
FromSteven Curtin
SubjectRe: Repeat? What about loops?
At 10:32 AM 4/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Or write your own score maker app in C, C++, basic, Visual Basic, Perl,
>Java, shell script , etc.....

Or even Forth!

Steve C

--------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.emf.org/people_curtin.html
Lucent Technologies - Bell Labs Innovations
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Middletown, NJ 07748-4801  U S A
ph: (732)957-2996   fax: (732)957-6878
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