| in soundhack when using cross synthesis, it is recommended that file format
of Next 32 bit floating point be used to deal with extreme dynamic range of
files that are output, which incidentally can be played by soundhack on
mac. and they can of course also be converted to AIFF 16 bit or whatever.
does csound somehow prescale output to reduce the need to use a 32 bit
floating point format for output file in similar processes?
tolve
>the only benefit i can see is IRCAM *supports* floating point..
>AIFF doesnt - AIFC does (but is not "official" - Madole/Erbe
>just "made it so") - and im not sure what the story is behind WAV floats
>(???)
>
>but at least on the mac end, the only apps i know of that use IRCAM are
>file converter ones...
>
>matt
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Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:56:12 -0500
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk, jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk,
"Matt J. Ingalls"
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From: tolve
Subject: Re: ircam
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in soundhack when using cross synthesis, it is recommended that file format
of Next 32 bit floating point be used to deal with extreme dynamic range of
files that are output, which incidentally can be played by soundhack on
mac. and they can of course also be converted to AIFF 16 bit or whatever.
does csound somehow prescale output to reduce the need to use a 32 bit
floating point format for output file in similar processes?
tolve
>the only benefit i can see is IRCAM *supports* floating point..
>AIFF doesnt - AIFC does (but is not "official" - Madole/Erbe
>just "made it so") - and im not sure what the story is behind WAV floats
>(???)
>
>but at least on the mac end, the only apps i know of that use IRCAM are
>file converter ones...
>
>matt
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From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
To: Richard Dobson
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: ircam
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> has been doing this for years (We also 'made it so').In my copy of the
AIFF
> documentation V1.2, it is stated sxplicitly that the samplesize can be
anything
> from 1 to 32, so the only ambiguity is whether that could be a 32bit int - what
> are people doing on the Mac these days?. With WAV, Microsoft recently published
my understanding was that AIFF didnt contain a "MaxValue" chunk,
and although this was not in AIFC either - AIFC was more "openended" where
Dave could create a one... Is the WAV implementation the same?
i havent looked on the other platforms, but on the Mac port we
have a format-type flag that will generate sound in floats then
automatically normalize to shorts. is this on other platforms? and if
not, - it would be easy enough to include in the source if people wanted
it...
matt
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 13:31:00 -0400
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: nad
Subject: Zak opcodes on PC?
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I've been mucking around with the Zak opcodes, or attempting to, I've been
getting some illegal opcode errors. I was wondering if all of these opcodes
work on the PC, or if for some reason they have not been implemented.
Thanks for the help,
Dan
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:39:50 +0100
From: Richard Dobson
Organization: Composers Desktop project
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To: "csound@maths.ex.ac.uk"
Subject: floats v ints (was: Re: IRCAM format)
References: <35C74808.5143D9E6@charlieb.com> <35C82894.7321635A@qsure.demon.co.uk> <35C7D370.815CA4E3@charlieb.com>
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An important distinction needs to be made between floats as a general
calculation vehicle, and floats as the storage format for a soundfile.
In the latter case, values are expected to be normalized, i.e betweeen +1.0 and
-1.0. This makes it effectively equivalent in precision to 24bit fixed-point
ints (e.g as used in Motorola 56K dsps). The 8 bits of the exponent allow for
overflow, but this can quite quickly lead to loss of precision. Problems can
arise for example when adding a very small number to a very large number. You
have a floating point, indeed, but only 24bits of precision. Sonic Foundry, for
example, are careful to describe SoundForge as doing '24bit processing', in
distinction to the use of 32bit ints - which if treated as fractional fixed
point gives you more precision than floats. So programmers cannot in fact
entirely afford to disregard scaling issues, whichever format they are using.
On the 32bit x86 processor, in any event, calculations are typically done in
64bit doubles, where precision is less of a problem (and the fpu in fact uses
80-bit doubles internally).
Richard Dobson
Charles Baker wrote:
>
> Ben Jefferys wrote:
>
> Exactly: only floating point gives you full usage of word, no matterwhat
> the absolute value of the sample:within limits, of course, but
> *practically*
> it gives better results ! Even if we're talking short floats, no longer
> than the
> int formats, the results are often quite noticably better: if only because
> darn few
> of us make sure that all samples input and output are scaled to use all of
> the
> word. And this brings up another advantage of F.P.: when int sounds are
> used,
> one has to be extremely careful in combining them, scaling the input
> samples
> to assure that you don't overflow. This is not a worry with float samples:
>
> they can be combined freely & without concern over the absolute value of
> the result,
> and then scaled/converted into ints to play. CLM and jpff's WinCsound (for
> example) both
> provide this as a way to synthesize your sound, a way many experienced
> composers
> prefer. Try it , you'll like it!
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From: Charles Baker
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Subject: Re: floats v ints (was RE: IRCAM format)
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Indeed, float as storage format gives same resolution as 24-bit fixed
point
ints....but it is just this normalzation that occurs in correctly moving
from int formats output by most A/D's and synth progs. to float that is
the great advantage. If one never examines the sounds one uses and
generates,
to assure that one is using the full word size available, each operation
that outputs int values (no matter the internal processing resolution)
can and does worsen the quantization error. This is not the case if
one outputs floats, then normalizaes the result. I have simple shells
scripts
using sox that convert to float and normalizes the result for my
soundfiles.
If disk space is a worry, *then* one can convert to int format, and
still
maintain as high a degree of quality as one can in that particular word
size.
Such practices also make mixing a *lot* more intuitive...all files will
at least
respond to similar scaling ("mix amp") values in a similar, and more
predictable way.
And , yes, adding two *un-normalized* float values can give ridiculous
results:
but working with normalized floats is simply superior
in my experience, especially when one is working with a great many tools
...
yep 24 bit int DSP *if done correctly* is clean... but for most of us,
working with normalized floats is both a simplfication and an
improvement
in sonic quality.
Perhaps someone disagrees?
CharlieB--
*********************************************
Charlie Baker baker@charlieb.com
"We die with the dying:
See, they depart, and we go with them.
We are born with the dead:
See, they return, and bring us with them."
T.S.Eliot, Four Quartets: Little Gidding,V
*********************************************
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From: Charles Baker
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To: baker@charlieb.com
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Indeed, float as storage format gives same resolution as 24-bit fixed point
ints....but it is just this normalzation that occurs in correctly moving
from int formats output by most A/D's and synth progs. to float that is
the great advantage. If one never examines the sounds one uses and generates,
to assure that one is using the full word size available, each operation
that outputs int values (no matter the internal processing resolution)
can and does worsen the quantization error. This is not the case if
one outputs floats, then normalizaes the result. I have simple shells scripts
using sox that convert to float and normalizes the result for my soundfiles.
If disk space is a worry, *then* one can convert to int format, and still
maintain as high a degree of quality as one can in that particular word size.
Such practices also make mixing a *lot* more intuitive...all files will at least
respond to similar scaling ("mix amp") values in a similar, and more
predictable way.
And , yes, adding two un-normalized float values can give rediculous values:
(sp! sorry, no editor & I bet this doesn't even make the list...I'm not
on my normal isp.) but working with normalized floats is simply superior
in my experience, especially when one is working with a great many tools
...
yep 24 bit int DSP *if done correctly* is clean... but for most of us,
working with normalized floats is both a simplfication and an improvement
in sonic quality.
Perhaps someone disagrees?
CharlieB
--------------D91972ACCA4D8E935452B112--
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Arne Hanna
Subject: Another Query About The Book
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Hi there folks. I was wondering when/if Richard Boulanger's Csound Book is
going to be available.
Cheers
Arne
|