| J.Craine-ie3i7529@lmu.ac.uk wrote:
>
> can csound have more than one waveform present in an orc file?
> I know the answer is yes, but can each waveform for example
You load the soundfiles - or create waveforms - in the
score file, using f statements (creating function tables).
Then they're referred to by numbers in the orc file.
You can create, um, enough ftables for most purposes (200?),
and refer to each of them from (practically) any number of
opcodes in any number of instruments.
Read about f statements and GEN routines in the HTML manual, from
ftp://ftp.musique.umontreal.ca/pub/
(the file CsManual347.gz or similar)
You'll find examples of f-statements and soundfile loading in the
tutorial instruments (Toot 6-8).
Regards,
re
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:53:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Clytemnestra's Favorite Uncle
To: Per Villez
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: What is music ?
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On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Per Villez wrote:
> I'll stick with number 9.
> >
> > 9. Music is what happens once you get the hell away from Music School.
> >
You know, my mum is a composer and record producer, and that was the
definition she liked too.
Of course this is an unfair definition. I didn't get a degree in
music, but I worked on one for a while, and learned an awful lot.
I still see my teachers (i.e. the ones that taught me my instrument,
not the dumb wanker who taught music history from the same notes for
30 years), and have nothing but respect for them.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:49:23 -0500
To: csound mailing list
From: Steven Curtin
Subject: Re: Online Csound Competition !
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At 11:36 AM 2/12/98 +0100, you wrote:
>[chopped]
>
>> A 'competition' sounds like a good idea - like the FrogPeak CD that
>should
>> be coming out soon - about 80 contributors worked on the same sample.
My contribution to the FrogPeak CD was done entirely in csound. I'm sure
there are a number of other csound on the disk. It's a great system for
putting together a bunch of pieces, although I would stay away from the
word "competition". This implies that there's some standard against which
pieces should be judged. That was not how the Frog Peak project was
described- I believe they used the word "invitation" instead.
Steve C
--------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Curtin
http://www.emf.org/people_curtin.html
Lucent Technologies - Bell Labs Innovations
rm. 3C-208, 200 Laurel Ave S
Middletown, NJ 07748-4801 U S A
ph: (732)957-2996 fax: (732)957-6878
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To: hbyrne@pavilion.co.uk
CC: kent@inav.net, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
In-reply-to: (message from Per
Villez on Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:30:59 +0000)
Subject: Re: What is music ?
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>>>>> "Per" == Per Villez writes:
Per> I'll stick with number 9.
>>
>> 9. Music is what happens once you get the hell away from Music School.
>>
Oh dear! That really makes it hard for some of us. A little like
being told that we shoudl not have started from here!
==John
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In-Reply-To: (message from Per
Villez on Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:30:59 +0000)
Subject: Re: What is music ?
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>>>>> "Per" == Per Villez writes:
Per> I'll stick with number 9.
>>
>> 9. Music is what happens once you get the hell away from Music School.
>>
Oh dear! That really makes it hard for some of us. A little like
being told that we shoudl not have started from here!
==John
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From: Ken Locarnini
To: CSound Mailing List
Subject: Music Is?
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:36:46 -0800
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> Yes. Those who strive for the ultimate imitation of natural music by
> computers are losers. Music
> is something spiritual IN THE FIRST PLACE. It cannot be replaced by a set
> of digital chips producing
> a stream of numbers based on algorithms. True music is always a FYSICAL
> interaction between
> the player and it's instrument(s).
>
> David.
This is one of the main problems with computor music and CSound in
general, is that you cannot interact with something that is not realtime.
At least with midi, one can play in one part and then interact by recording
another using physical controllers. Physical controllers instead of being
a limitation transmit emotion from our bodies into sound. The physical
interaction in my opinion and experiences, produces better music. Music
that is extremely processed sounds boring. Just like too many overdubs in
a studio. That is why I am gratefull to people like Gabriel Maldenado who
are working hard on making CSound a realtime instrument. Then we could
concentrate on sound design but then actually interact with these sounds by
playing them. This to me is very healthy.
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The Renew Eden Project
"You will see it, when you believe it."
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From: Ken Locarnini
To: CSound Mailing List
Subject: Music Is?
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:36:46 -0800
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> Yes. Those who strive for the ultimate imitation of natural music by
> computers are losers. Music
> is something spiritual IN THE FIRST PLACE. It cannot be replaced by a set
> of digital chips producing
> a stream of numbers based on algorithms. True music is always a FYSICAL
> interaction between
> the player and it's instrument(s).
>
> David.
This is one of the main problems with computor music and CSound in
general, is that you cannot interact with something that is not realtime.
At least with midi, one can play in one part and then interact by recording
another using physical controllers. Physical controllers instead of being
a limitation transmit emotion from our bodies into sound. The physical
interaction in my opinion and experiences, produces better music. Music
that is extremely processed sounds boring. Just like too many overdubs in
a studio. That is why I am gratefull to people like Gabriel Maldenado who
are working hard on making CSound a realtime instrument. Then we could
concentrate on sound design but then actually interact with these sounds by
playing them. This to me is very healthy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
The Renew Eden Project
"You will see it, when you believe it."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
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In-Reply-To: <34E2FA96.7020@hexagon.se> (message from rasmus ekman on Thu, 12
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Subject: Re: how to?
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It was said...
> You can create, um, enough ftables for most purposes (200?),
In the recent versions that number is more like 2147483648, which will
probably blow your memory. The limit on table numbers is imposed by
your machine not the system.
There is however a problem with table numbers over 100 which I need
to fix......
==John
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From: Ken Locarnini
To: CSound Mailing List
Subject: Go outside!
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:49:42 -0800
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>10. Music is the perfect manifestation in the outside world of the
human soul.
I'll take #10. In my opinion, the problem with modern music or any art or
human creation in this modern day is that the art does not reflect reality.
I know this is subjective, but I define reality as the forces which form
and sustain us i.e. sun, air, water, earth, sub-atomic particles etc. Art
that reflects these forces has a power to communicate in that it reflects
something deep inside all of us. Has anyone seen the PBS show where they
took a drumhead with sand on it and played a sustained note on a violin
right next to it? The sand arranged into geometric shapes like snowflakes.
In the beginning was the "word". Tone and sound creates. Unfortunately
the lives that many composers lead has little to do with these forces. The
music says, "I stay inside all day and stare at computor screens." or " I
am a rock star who lives on busses and does drugs all night." We get bored
with these creations because they do not reflect the higher truths which we
are a part of and long to hear.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:02:03 -0800
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Dave LaDelfa
Subject: Re: Whither music?
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>>>From: davids@pavell.com (David Schuyeteneer)
>>Music is the appreciation of structures in aesthetic psychofictional
>space.
I like this one ... though I'm not entirely sure I'm using the same
definition of psychofictional as you are. Mine has something to do with the
internal metaphorizations that form psycic consciousness.
>From: "Paul Winkler"
>Hmmm... so is a psychedelic experience... or schizophrenia (in a good
>mood)... (mind you I have not experienced either of these so I could be
>mistaken).
Indeed. I have firsthand knowledge of the former, and done a bit of reading
on the latter (recommended: _The Origin of Consciousness on The Breakdown
of the Bicameral Mind_, by Julian Jaynes), and neither (to me) seem
centrally concerned with appreciation of aesthetic structures. Certainly
psychedelics _enhance_ appreciation of sensory experience, but that is more
a side effect than the defining center.
>my point being merely that these definitions are nearly always either
>too narrow (i.e. exclude things that are arguably music) or too broad
>(i.e. include things that no one would argue are music).
My crack at it: Music is human-organized sound, or the threat thereof.
Substitute "promise" for "threat" if you like. I think this covers
listening to Cage and reading the score to Beethoven's 4th. Less pithy
might be "Music is human-organized sound propagating through time either as
compression waves in air or as the imagined experience of hearing those
waves."
Note that this doesn't attempt to define what "art" is, nor what "good
muisc" is.
>Though if anyone wants to argue that chemically induced experiences are
>music, I would love to hear it.
All "experiences" are chemically induced, actually. What did you eat for
breakfast?
--
Dave LaDelfa By "multimedia" I mean that when you click on
ladelfa@rain.org the picture of the cat the room will light up
Santa Barbara, California in undulating splashes of teal and indigo and
then, while an unseen choir intones erotic
'delf' on EfNet verse, three costumed dancers will come and
ICQ: 4977869 whisk away the Macintosh, replacing it with
http://www.rain.org/~ladelfa/ three strawberries in Beaujolais sauce.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:05:22 -0800
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Csound recordings et al
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I guess I'll jump in and toot my horn as well...I have a new release of
computer music coming out on Rastermusic this
spring called "blueCube( )"...approx 80% was composed with
Csound/Cecilia/CMask and the rest was created with Soundhack and Virtual
Waves and other granular synth apps...the title track will accompany an
article I wrote for the new Csound book by Richard Boulanger on MIT Press
and three of the pieces from the CD were "performed" at the CalArts
Electronic Music Festival last November...
as for what music is and how to compose music: speaking about music is like
dancing about architecture (paraphrased I'm sure)...which I guess means
no-one can truely explain objectively and conclusively what music is and how
to compose it...for every person that writes music there is a different way
of listening and conceptualizing sound/music and it's meaning...just as this
is my highly subjective definition/opinion...
how to compose computer music? you just do it...it's something that the
brain just hears and speaks as a native poetic language...this can't be
taught...you develop this ability early in life...some people make music
that achieves it's own life force and momentum and others seem incapable of
breathing life into a series of sounds...such is life...
endin,
KIM
________________________
<> kim.cascone <>
<>sound.designer -- headspace<>
<>anechoic@sirius.com<>
<>http://www.sirius.com/~anechoic<>
:: "blueCube( )" :: kim.cascone ::
[release date: spring '98, label: Rastermusic]
_____________________________________
"the meta-designer creates context, not content"
-- Gene Youngblood
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:11:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Pritchard
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To: Ken Locarnini
Cc: CSound Mailing List
Subject: Re: Music Is?
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On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Ken Locarnini wrote:
> This is one of the main problems with computor music and CSound in
> general, is that you cannot interact with something that is not realtime.
Hmm, this list isn't realtime...
Most orchestral composers don't work in real time...
Of course, "real time" can be rather subjective and contextual...
Was Canada's gold medal snowboarder operating in real time or not? :-)
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Subject: Csound recordings, music and more...
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Hello,=0A=0AAbout competitions: great idea but call it compilation, real =
art shouldn't=0Acompete! It would like the billboard charts mainstream th=
ing and cut away=0Afreedom...=0A=0A<>=0ACorrect. But=
why you should imitate something. I can't UNDERSTAND it. They=0Agive us =
so MUCH possibilities and the first thing people come into mind is to=0Ai=
mitate natural instruments, how BORING! Take the chance! Create new!=0AAR=
RRRGGH!=0AIt's like the physical modelling synths, they even recreate ana=
logue synths,=0AHELP! =0AI am bored, I make music since 1983 and CAN'T en=
joy resonant Filters anymore,=0Apeople often forgot that something has to=
come into filter, thats interesting,=0Anot the "=A7$%=A7$% Filter. Again=
: ARRRGGGH!=0A<< Music=0Ais something spiritual IN THE FIRST PLACE. It ca=
nnot be replaced by a set=0Aof digital chips producing=0Aa stream of numb=
ers based on algorithms. True music is always a FYSICAL=0Ainteraction bet=
ween=0Athe player and it's instrument(s). >> This can't be true, isn't it=
? I try not=0Ato burst but these arguments come my way since I use synths=
in 1983 (which=0Adidn't use digital chips and algorithms, btw.). I try t=
o ignore...=0AI am against banning people and censorship, but guys, which=
says such boring=0Athings should be banned instead of the antithorp (?) =
thing (?), this is really=0Aart and got a great website.=0A=0AThere was w=
ritten: <> NONONO, take the chance, take the machines, it is UP to you. So man=
y=0Agood machines are created in these days like the microwaves, kurzweil=
s, kymas=0Aetc... but it is so seldom you hear these new sounds. People a=
re so boring,=0A(commercial) electronic music here in europe sounds like =
20 years ago,=0Arezfilters, boring stuff, old esthetics.=0A=0A<=
>=0AI don't belive it is something bad. It is not spamming when you write=
about=0Ayour recordings, upcoming projects or something else you done wi=
th csound. In=0Aexample I would like to have a list of recordings.=0AAnd =
I will do it too:=0Aabout CSound recordings, here are some unacademic app=
roaches to it:=0A=0AI used it for some squeeks and voice effects on my cu=
rrent CD of my project=0ANotstandskomitee, 'Strom'.=0ATwo whole songs wil=
l be done in CSound in the upcoming CD of Das Kombinat,=0A'Betriebssystem=
' and I plan to do a whole CD with CSound in this year.=0AIt is really a =
great different approach to work not in realtime. I really=0Athank them w=
ho give us these possibilities, too. But I would also have it=0Arealtime =
and I would like to purchaise the xCsound DSP card and try to afford=0Aa =
Kyma by Symbolic Sound this year. These devices give me more than every u=
sal=0Asynth you can get around the corner, even these great machines I me=
ntioned=0Aabove. But I will always use cSound too....=0A=0A<> No I don't think this could be ha=
ppend with CSound. It is so deep I=0Awish I could have more time to get i=
nto it. There are so many sounds to=0Adiscover, ways of composition and i=
nteracting noises...=0AThe only thing someone could get frustrated is the=
'User Interface' of it but=0AI think it is the price for the possibiliti=
es...=0A=0AWith friendly greetings to all=0A=0AMalte=0A=0A---------------=
-----------------------------------=0ANotstandskomitee / Das Kombinat=0A =
Industrial Electronic Art=0Ahttp://members.aol.com/block4k7=0A-----=
---------------------------------------------=0A
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From: Paul Winkler
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: What is music ?
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OK, I admit, this is fun.
>Let me see if I can come up with a few definitions of Music.
>
>
> 4. Music is what your brain makes when your ears feel happy.
I like that one.
>10. Music is the perfect manifestation in the outside world of the
> human soul.
That would be nice. I hear a lot of nominal "music" that doesn't sound
like a perfect manifestation of anything except perhaps marketing and
studio craft.
--PW
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:11:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Micheal Allen Thompson
To: Ken Locarnini
Cc: CSound Mailing List
Subject: Re: Music Is?
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Ok, next thread! All Im going to say is that interactive computer music
is only one form of the art. Its healthy to have many different forms of
art not just one.
Michael
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Ken Locarnini wrote:
> > Yes. Those who strive for the ultimate imitation of natural music by
> > computers are losers. Music
> > is something spiritual IN THE FIRST PLACE. It cannot be replaced by a set
> > of digital chips producing
> > a stream of numbers based on algorithms. True music is always a FYSICAL
> > interaction between
> > the player and it's instrument(s).
> >
> > David.
> This is one of the main problems with computor music and CSound in
> general, is that you cannot interact with something that is not realtime.
> At least with midi, one can play in one part and then interact by recording
> another using physical controllers. Physical controllers instead of being
> a limitation transmit emotion from our bodies into sound. The physical
> interaction in my opinion and experiences, produces better music. Music
> that is extremely processed sounds boring. Just like too many overdubs in
> a studio. That is why I am gratefull to people like Gabriel Maldenado who
> are working hard on making CSound a realtime instrument. Then we could
> concentrate on sound design but then actually interact with these sounds by
> playing them. This to me is very healthy.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> The Renew Eden Project
> "You will see it, when you believe it."
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
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From: Paul Winkler
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: discouraged
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>From: "Michael Pelz-Sherman"
>
>Sure it's worthwhile! My point is that in general, people tend to spend
too
>much time worrying about timbre, to the detriment of musical "quality".
That may be true. I actually haven't heard enough of other people's
computer music to have a general opinion like this.
>thought the person who posted the original message was getting
discouraged
>about not being able to get the kinds of timbres he was looking for,
and I
>was trying to encourage him to focus on the musical structure rather
than
>worrying so much about timbre.
That's reasonable.
>There is a difference between "richness of possibility" and expressive
>power. To be expressive you need some kind of paradigmatic structure,
which
>I find lacking in timbre but present in pitch.
I would rather say this: To be expressive you need to be able to
comprehensibly convey your findings in that "r.o.p." If "paradigmatic
structures" are what makes the comprehension possible, then I guess
you're right about that--but then I would assert that timbre is not
without such structure, even if it is mostly unconscious and
un-articulated.
>>>The problem with CSound, and with most electronic music, is that it
>>lacks
>>>the dynamic interaction between composer, performer, instrument, and
>>audience that gives traditional music
>>>its expressive power.
>>
>>"It's not a bug, it's a feature." [ chop]
>
>
>Yes, there is an element of "instant gratification" that is intensely
>satisfying.
I was talking about compositional involvement, not instant
gratification. I think I can tell the difference, thank you.
>I am quite familiar with this phenomenon. However, the end
>result tends not to hold up to repeated listening, because the deep
>structure of the music is either non-existent or incomprehensible.
I don't find this to be true at all. I can listen to the work I've done
with the methods I described over and over. I should point out that many
of the example adjustments I described might be termed STRUCTURAL. I'm
not arguing against your assertion that structure is possibly the most
important part of composition; I'm merely asserting that I believe it is
possible to create comprehensible structures in time with timbre rather
than with pitch.
>
>Well, common sense is pretty uncommon in life and in music. What I mean
by
>it is the elusive quality of "musicality" that many people are able to
>recognize when they hear but is so difficult to articulate, just as the
>rules of "common sense" in everyday life can be. I think the electronic
>music pieces that succeed do so by being *musical* - a concept which
for me
>at least transcends "style".
>
Yes, and which for me also transcends the division of frequency
characteristics into pitch and timbre.
Regards,
PW
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:15:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Micheal Allen Thompson
To: anechoic@sirius.com
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Csound recordings et al
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very good!
Michael
On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 anechoic@sirius.com wrote:
> I guess I'll jump in and toot my horn as well...I have a new release of
> computer music coming out on Rastermusic this
> spring called "blueCube( )"...approx 80% was composed with
> Csound/Cecilia/CMask and the rest was created with Soundhack and Virtual
> Waves and other granular synth apps...the title track will accompany an
> article I wrote for the new Csound book by Richard Boulanger on MIT Press
> and three of the pieces from the CD were "performed" at the CalArts
> Electronic Music Festival last November...
> memebers who helped me with blueCube( )>
>
> as for what music is and how to compose music: speaking about music is like
> dancing about architecture (paraphrased I'm sure)...which I guess means
> no-one can truely explain objectively and conclusively what music is and how
> to compose it...for every person that writes music there is a different way
> of listening and conceptualizing sound/music and it's meaning...just as this
> is my highly subjective definition/opinion...
> how to compose computer music? you just do it...it's something that the
> brain just hears and speaks as a native poetic language...this can't be
> taught...you develop this ability early in life...some people make music
> that achieves it's own life force and momentum and others seem incapable of
> breathing life into a series of sounds...such is life...
> endin,
> KIM
> ________________________
> <> kim.cascone <>
>
> <>sound.designer -- headspace<>
>
> <>anechoic@sirius.com<>
> <>http://www.sirius.com/~anechoic<>
>
> :: "blueCube( )" :: kim.cascone ::
> [release date: spring '98, label: Rastermusic]
> _____________________________________
>
> "the meta-designer creates context, not content"
> -- Gene Youngblood
>
>
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:18:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeremiah Thomas Isaacs
To: Wayne Freno
Cc: Csound List
Subject: Re: Csound recordings
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> Wayne Freno wrote:
>=20
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Are there any recordings in existance in which
> > any part of the instrumentation is Csound?
> > I want to see if I can get 'em locally. Thanks.
> >
> > Wayne F.
try available everywhere. aphex twin _allegedly_ uses csound for most of
the sounds on _Richard D. James_. I say allegedly only because I have
heard conflicting information. (more yea than nay, though, in fact one
nay)
worth listening to, if you can stand all that damned metricism. (:
---
jeremiah jti0001@jove.acs.unt.ed=
u
people.unt.edu/~jti0001
---
excuse me but i just have to explode
explode this body off me wake-up tomorrow
brand new a little tired but brand new
bj=BFrk
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:50:36
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Hans Mikelson
Subject: Orbits on 3D Surfaces
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Hello,
I was in the book store tonight paging through Curtis Rhoades' (sp?) book
on Computer Music and noticed a page with a picture of a surface being
traced by an orbit. I've had a small collection of complex 3D surfaces of
the form Z(x,y) which I wasn't sure how best to use to generate sounds. In
the past I had just rastored through them snaking back and forth. Using
orbit opens up a large number of possibilities. For example a circular
orbit could trace along the surface and the Z(x(t), y(t)) is taken as the
amplitude. Modulations could be applied to the circle center point,
circle->ellipse. Instead of circular orbits chaotic oscillators could
define the X, Y coordinates although these would not be tuned.
I think something like the following will work:
y=sin(t)
x=cos(t)
Z(x, y)=sin^2*(sqrt(x^2+y^2))
Z(x, y)=ln(x^2+y^2)
Z(x, y)=x-1/12*x^3-1/4*y^2+1/2
Z(x, y)=-5*x/(x^2+y^2+1)
Z(x, y)=1/3*x^3-x*y^2
etc...
These equations are from Clifford Pickover's "Computers and the Imagination"
Start oscil can be used to generate sine and cosine. Then modulate by
varying radius, center etc. This opens up a large class of synthesis...
Bye,
Hans Mikelson
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From: Paul Winkler
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Whither music?
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>>>>From: davids@pavell.com (David Schuyeteneer)
>>>Music is the appreciation of structures in aesthetic psychofictional
>>space.
>
>I like this one ... though I'm not entirely sure I'm using the same
>definition of psychofictional as you are. Mine has something to do with
the
>internal metaphorizations that form psycic consciousness.
>
>>From: "Paul Winkler"
>>Hmmm... so is a psychedelic experience... or schizophrenia (in a good
>>mood)... (mind you I have not experienced either of these so I could
be
>>mistaken).
>
>Indeed. I have firsthand knowledge of the former, and done a bit of
reading
>on the latter (recommended: _The Origin of Consciousness on The
Breakdown
>of the Bicameral Mind_, by Julian Jaynes), and neither (to me) seem
>centrally concerned with appreciation of aesthetic structures.
Certainly
>psychedelics _enhance_ appreciation of sensory experience, but that is
more
>a side effect than the defining center.
Whoops. I realize I made an error by not recognizing the importance of
the word "aesthetic" in the original statement.
>
>My crack at it: Music is human-organized sound, or the threat thereof.
>
>Substitute "promise" for "threat" if you like. I think this covers
>listening to Cage and reading the score to Beethoven's 4th. Less pithy
>might be "Music is human-organized sound propagating through time
either as
>compression waves in air or as the imagined experience of hearing those
>waves."
I've been trying my own hand (?) at some sort of definition today and
haven't got any further than "Music is a cognitive framework for
interpreting experienced or imagined sound." Which is not at all
satisfactory. It doesn't really distinguish music from any other sound
at all.
For that matter, your definitions above definitely include speech.
>Note that this doesn't attempt to define what "art" is, nor what "good
>muisc" is.
Fine by me. Though if we COULD define "art," it might help the
definition of music to mention that it's a subset of art.
Oh, drat, I can't resist. I'm going to quote Scott McCloud's definition
of art from Understanding Comics: "...any human activity which doesn't
grow out of either of our species' two basic instincts: survival and
reproduction!"
Of course, he goes on to qualify that quite a lot, for instance, "Yet in
almost everything we do there is at least an element of art."
>>Though if anyone wants to argue that chemically induced experiences
are
>>music, I would love to hear it.
>
>All "experiences" are chemically induced, actually. What did you eat
for
>breakfast?
CHOCOLATE FROSTED SUGAR BOMBS, OF COURSE!!!! WHY DO YOU ASK?!?!?!?!
--PW
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:09:26 -0500
Subject: "Ear candy" and Music
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From: Jason H Clouse
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On Tue, 10 Feb 98 23:13:24 -0600 mps@is.com (Michael Pelz-Sherman)
writes:
>Oh what the hey, I'll jump in on this one...
>
>I think there is an important distinction to be made between music and
>"ear candy". The latter might
>bring "instant gratification", but in the long run, one grows tired of
>the empty calories and
>longs for something that "sticks to the ribs".
My only question is...why can't we have both? I find that a few (very
few) composers manage to blend the two--but when they do, it's pure
magic. We need more magic.
Jason
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:09:14 -0500
Subject: Compositions for acoustic instruments and "tape"
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Just a quick thought here. I've been to performances combining live
acoustic instruments with taped electronic parts. I understand the
original reason for using analog tape, but why do people still do it?
I'm always distracted by the horrible sound quality and tape hiss at
these performances. Nowadays, it makes more sense to record these things
digitally on CD or even DAT.
Jason
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Subject: Re: discouraged
To: RWD@cableinet.co.uk, csound
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Modern music suffers from science envy. Everyone wants their art form to
logically progress to the "next level", to "advance", to "evolve". This drive
has led to the chronic conceptualism that bankrupts so much modern art. The
very feeling that somehow we can encapsule the concept of "music" in a single
neat phrase is symptomatic of the conceptual disease. But good music has always
had more in common with love-making, story-telling, prayer, and good cooking
than it has with philosophising, analogising, systematising, and
revolutionising.
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:57:24
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Hans Mikelson
Subject: What is Music/Examples of Orbits on Complex Surfaces
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Hi,
What is music?
It ain't got a thing if it ain't got that swing.
but I get a kick out of corn!
Actually my two major endeavors in music are blues harmonica improvisation
which lets me really get into the music and electronic/synthesizer and
computer music which lets me try to be really creative and innovative.
Anyway I wrote out some examples to go with my earlier post. They could
use some DC blocking...
; ORCHESTRA
sr=22050
kr=2205
ksmps=10
nchnls=2
; Orbits Traced on Complex 3D Surfaces
; z=sin^2*(sqrt(x^2+y^2))
instr 1
idur = p3
iamp = p4
ifqc = cpspch(p5)
kdclick linseg 0, .002, iamp, idur-.004, iamp, .002, 0
krsize linseg .5, idur*.5, 5, idur*.5, .5 ; Sweeps both radius size and
circle center
krad0 oscil krsize, 1, 1
krad1 = krad0+6 ; Make a positive radius.
ax0 oscil krad1, ifqc, 1, .25 ; Cosine
ax = ax0+krsize
ay0 oscil krad1, ifqc, 1 ; Sine
ay = ay0-krsize
az1 = sin(sqrt(ax*ax+ay*ay)) ; Compute the surface
az = az1*az1-.5
outs az*kdclick, az*kdclick
endin
; z=ln(x^2+y^2)
instr 2
idur = p3
iamp = p4
ifqc = cpspch(p5)
kdclick linseg 0, .002, iamp, idur-.004, iamp, .002, 0
krsize linseg .5, idur*.5, 5, idur*.5, .5
krad0 oscil krsize, 1, 1
krad1 = krad0+6
ax0 oscil krad1, ifqc, 1, .25 ; Cosine
ax = ax0+krsize
ay0 oscil krad1, ifqc, 1 ; Sine
ay = ay0-krsize
az = log(ax*ax+ay*ay)-4
outs az*kdclick, az*kdclick
endin
; z=-5*x/(x^2+y^2+1)
instr 3
idur = p3
iamp = p4
ifqc = cpspch(p5)
kdclick linseg 0, .002, iamp, idur-.004, iamp, .002, 0
krsize linseg .5, idur*.5, 5, idur*.5, .5
krad0 oscil krsize, 1, 1
krad1 = krad0+6
ax0 oscil krad1, ifqc, 1, .25 ; Cosine
ax = ax0+krsize
ay0 oscil krad1, ifqc, 1 ; Sine
ay = ay0-krsize
az = -5*ax/(ax*ax+ay*ay+1)
outs az*kdclick, az*kdclick
endin
; SCORE
f1 0 8192 10 1
; Sta Dur Amp Pch
i1 0 2 20000 8.00
i2 2 2 1000 8.00
i3 4 2 5000 8.00
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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:04:06 -0800
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Dave LaDelfa
Subject: Re: Whither music?
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>>Me:
>>My crack at it: Music is human-organized sound, or the threat thereof.
>>
>"Paul Winkler" :
>For that matter, your definitions above definitely include speech.
Absolutely, but only the part of speech that is the _sound_ of speech,
stripped of its cognition/meaning component -- which means that there's
room for Dutiful Ducks and Rainbow Bandit Bombs under the umbrella.
In general practice, of course, we consider speech primarily for its
meaning component (its "content"), which is why at first glance its
inclusion would seem to corrupt the definition I pose above.
Unwilling to let me separate "speech" into sound and meaning? Don't we
separate monophonic song into sonic (the "music") and cognitive (the
meaning of the words) spheres -- especially if we don't speak the language
of the lyrics?
>>Note that this doesn't attempt to define what "art" is, nor what "good
>>music" is.
>
>Fine by me. Though if we COULD define "art," it might help the
>definition of music to mention that it's a subset of art.
Hm. One might argue that there are whole traditions of music which are
outside the conceits of "art" as we understand it in Western culture.
>Oh, drat, I can't resist. I'm going to quote Scott McCloud's definition
>of art from Understanding Comics: "...any human activity which doesn't
>grow out of either of our species' two basic instincts: survival and
>reproduction!"
But what about love songs?
>"Music is a cognitive framework for interpreting experienced or imagined
>sound."
I would so much prefer to define music in terms of what it is
intrinsically, rather than how the mind prepares for, experiences, or
reacts to its reception. The bullet rather than the wound.
Dave
--
Dave LaDelfa By "multimedia" I mean that when you click on
ladelfa@rain.org the picture of the cat the room will light up
Santa Barbara, California in undulating splashes of teal and indigo and
then, while an unseen choir intones erotic
'delf' on EfNet verse, three costumed dancers will come and
ICQ: 4977869 whisk away the Macintosh, replacing it with
http://www.rain.org/~ladelfa/ three strawberries in Beaujolais sauce.
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From: Brian Redfern
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I'm a csound newcomer, just wondering about the best ways to try to
make realistic drum sounds.
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From: David Schuyeteneer
To: csound mailing list
Subject: Fw: Whither music?
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:31:45 +0100
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> >>Music is the appreciation of structures in aesthetic psychofictional
> >space.
>
> I like this one ... though I'm not entirely sure I'm using the same
> definition of psychofictional as you are. Mine has something to do with
the
> internal metaphorizations that form psycic consciousness.
I derived that quote from Brian Eno's definition of ambient music : ambient
music is
what sonically happens in psychofictional space. I really, really like that
one....I fully
understand it....Even before I had knowledge of that definition, I had a
feeling that all that
spaced, electroacoustic ambient music had something to do with a fictional
space where it
all happens. Close to this we encounter the phenomena of Gestalt
structures....people tend
to experience electroacoustic music/textures more or less grouped together
in wonderful
psychological structures in wich the sum of the sonic subelements function
as one major
element.
David !
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 02:43:58 -0700 (MST)
From: bruce quaglia
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: of competiton and anxiety....
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On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 SteinersT1@aol.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> About competitions: great idea but call it compilation, real art shouldn't
> compete! It would like the billboard charts mainstream thing and cut away
> freedom...
>
hmmmm, according to one well traveled literary theory, (applied
equally to other arts), not only is your art (music) competing
against all of the other music of the day, but it must more
importantly compete for recognition against the cannon of
acknowledged masterpieces...so hike up your shorts and roll
up your sleeves, you're not only in the ring with me, but with
Brahms, Coltrane and Hendrix....(you try to figure out why
it's called an "anxiety theory"...)
Bruce Quaglia
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:55:56 +0000
From: Richard Dobson
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Organization: Composers Desktop Project
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People have been philosophizing, etc., about music from before the time of Plato
(he who said 'music is far too important to entrust to musicians'!), and in the case
of Hindu mysticism, for example, it is central to the ontology (the relation between
the external and internal sound) and perhaps the difference in this century is that
resources have become available to explore in a concrete way what hitherto could
only be explored as a thought experiment. Joscelyn Godwin, in his book 'Harmonies of
Heaven and Earth' , subtitled, 'from antiquity to the avant-garde' (David S, you'll
love this!) described the music of this century as a 'new Alchemical prima materia',
with which, indeed, we are still cooking. So I think all the activities you list,
and more, are in the musical 'crucible'.
I don't think anyone seriously expects to be able to encapsulate the whole of
'music' in a single sentence. However, the attempt has often led me to new ideas and
insights - and the traffic on this list, on this topic, is surely a sign that this
is true for many of us. It only becomes a problem when people use is as way of
justifying their tastes, or denying other people's tastes. It's not so much the
exercise itself which is worthwhile, but what it leads to...
mbpcpa@sprynet.com wrote:
> Modern music suffers from science envy. Everyone wants their art form to
> logically progress to the "next level", to "advance", to "evolve". This drive
> has led to the chronic conceptualism that bankrupts so much modern art. The
> very feeling that somehow we can encapsule the concept of "music" in a single
> neat phrase is symptomatic of the conceptual disease. But good music has always
> had more in common with love-making, story-telling, prayer, and good cooking
> than it has with philosophising, analogising, systematising, and
> revolutionising.
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From: Richard Dobson
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To: bruce quaglia
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Subject: Re: of competiton and anxiety....
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(deep breath..) well, I suppose we could have a Csound festival for the
Millenium, and everyone who turns up gets a prize. :-)
Richard Dobson
bruce quaglia wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 SteinersT1@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > About competitions: great idea but call it compilation, real art shouldn't
> > compete! It would like the billboard charts mainstream thing and cut away
> > freedom...
> >
>
> hmmmm, according to one well traveled literary theory, (applied
> equally to other arts), not only is your art (music) competing
> against all of the other music of the day, but it must more
> importantly compete for recognition against the cannon of
> acknowledged masterpieces...so hike up your shorts and roll
> up your sleeves, you're not only in the ring with me, but with
> Brahms, Coltrane and Hendrix....(you try to figure out why
> it's called an "anxiety theory"...)
>
> Bruce Quaglia
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References: (message from Per
Villez on Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:30:59 +0000)
<19980211193644.19379.qmail@hotmail.com>
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To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
From: Per Villez
Subject: Re: What is music ?
Cc: csound@noether.ex.AC.UK
No offence meant John.
I meant that ,when I left university into the big wide world, I began to
really learn from other musicians whom were coming from vastly different
cultures. Brazil, Spain, India. At University I felt somewhat safe. Outside
I was thrown into a fairly large dark pit. Do you want to here my life
story?
per
>>>>>> "Per" == Per Villez writes:
>
> Per> I'll stick with number 9.
>
> >>
> >> 9. Music is what happens once you get the hell away from Music School.
> >>
>
>Oh dear! That really makes it hard for some of us. A little like
>being told that we shoudl not have started from here!
>==John
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References: (message from Per
Villez on Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:30:59 +0000)
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To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
From: Per Villez
Subject: Re: What is music ?
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No offence meant John.
I meant that ,when I left university into the big wide world, I began to
really learn from other musicians whom were coming from vastly different
cultures. Brazil, Spain, India. At University I felt somewhat safe. Outside
I was thrown into a fairly large dark pit. Do you want to here my life
story?
per
>>>>>> "Per" == Per Villez writes:
>
> Per> I'll stick with number 9.
>
> >>
> >> 9. Music is what happens once you get the hell away from Music School.
> >>
>
>Oh dear! That really makes it hard for some of us. A little like
>being told that we shoudl not have started from here!
>==John
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From: David Schuyeteneer
To: csound mailing list
Subject: Experimental versus "normal" music....
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:00:23 +0100
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O.k. I am 21 years young and by now it seems to be clear that my mind
is really OBSESSED by
EXPERIMENTAL music...I almost get angry or pissed of someone says "I don't
like that shit" when
I let him/her listen to a new record I like.....I know it's silly, bit it
is the truth....
I have friends who are totally the opposite of me considering musical
taste.....I had to hear a thousand
times "You are one hell of sick guy", "You are crazy, that's not music,
that's bullshit" etc...etc....
for instance when I let them hear a nice experimental album, they simply
blast it away with one
phrase like I described above. I hate it, I hate it.....For me, there does
not exist music wich is
to extreme....I have the most open mind one can imagine.....no weirdness IF
it is done with passion
and really serious, is too weird for me....voila ;-)
I LIVE in what old fashioned people call in "strange music", It is my
second language, I perfectly understand it, It's a home for me, a destiny,
a mission...I hate it when people say it's shit when I
know they like stupid pathetic rockmusic and TOP-50 charts popmusic...
It all started way back in 1987 when I was 10 years old...It was an
ordinary day, I was making my
homework in my room, when my dad arrived home from his work....I heard him
yelling from downstaris that he had something for me....Curious as I was I
ran downstairs to see what it was...Two vinyl
records, one of Jean-Michel Jarre (Oxygene) and one of Brian Eno (Ambient
#4 On Land)....I played
them and I was totally amazed, passionated, I fell in love with the
records...I still have them in my
collection. Later on (I was 11 or 12) I started collection more of Jarre,
Eno and Kraftwerk.....
I pathetically "failed" in keeping track of commercial rock and popmusic,
but I don't care at all I don't like it anyway, I had a fulltime job with
the electronic and jazz music. I also remember my first mixtape
I did when I was 14. It was on an old 2 track band recorder and it covered
two hours of freejazz of my dad's record collection with electronic
elements of my own (small) collection.....With my first
Atari ST and Amiga in 1992 I started making tracks myself....then
PC.....Now it's 1998 and nothing
seems unpossible anymore...
FREEDOM, LOVE AND CREATIVITY ABOVE ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!
David.
please allow me to have this said...
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From: David Schuyeteneer
To: csound mailing list
Subject: Fw: Orbits on 3D Surfaces
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:07:34 +0100
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> I was in the book store tonight paging through Curtis Rhoades' (sp?) book
> on Computer Music and noticed a page with a picture of a surface being
> traced by an orbit. I've had a small collection of complex 3D surfaces
of
> the form Z(x,y) which I wasn't sure how best to use to generate sounds.
In
> the past I had just rastored through them snaking back and forth. Using
> orbit opens up a large number of possibilities. For example a circular
> orbit could trace along the surface and the Z(x(t), y(t)) is taken as the
> amplitude. Modulations could be applied to the circle center point,
> circle->ellipse. Instead of circular orbits chaotic oscillators could
> define the X, Y coordinates although these would not be tuned.
>
> I think something like the following will work:
>
> y=sin(t)
> x=cos(t)
>
> Z(x, y)=sin^2*(sqrt(x^2+y^2))
> Z(x, y)=ln(x^2+y^2)
> Z(x, y)=x-1/12*x^3-1/4*y^2+1/2
> Z(x, y)=-5*x/(x^2+y^2+1)
> Z(x, y)=1/3*x^3-x*y^2
> etc...
>
> These equations are from Clifford Pickover's "Computers and the
Imagination"
> Start oscil can be used to generate sine and cosine. Then modulate by
> varying radius, center etc. This opens up a large class of synthesis...
Can anyone please explain a little deeper how things like orbits and
circular path tracing can be used
with a Csound oscil ???
How do I let "move" the sound on a path like one moves pixels in a
computer animation
David.
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From: David Schuyeteneer
To: csound mailing list
Subject: The secret of Csound.
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:04:09 +0100
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What I like very much about a sound language like Csound, Cmix etc, is the
possibility
to say :
If this = that, then do something nice.
With this single phrase the extreme versatility of a sound/music
description language is well captured.
It implies that ANYthing is possible to your sound.
You can really act as a conductor and guide for what has to happen with
your soundstream...
David.
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From: David Schuyeteneer
To: csound mailing list
Subject: Fw: ethics of captured sound
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:31:52 +0100
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> >>>>From: davids@pavell.com (David Schuyeteneer)
> >>>Music is the appreciation of structures in aesthetic psychofictional
> >>space.
> >
> >I like this one ... though I'm not entirely sure I'm using the same
> >definition of psychofictional as you are. Mine has something to do with
> the
> >internal metaphorizations that form psycic consciousness.
> >
> >>From: "Paul Winkler"
> >>Hmmm... so is a psychedelic experience... or schizophrenia (in a good
> >>mood)... (mind you I have not experienced either of these so I could
> be
> >>mistaken).
> Whoops. I realize I made an error by not recognizing the importance of
> the word "aesthetic" in the original statement.
> I've been trying my own hand (?) at some sort of definition today and
> haven't got any further than "Music is a cognitive framework for
> interpreting experienced or imagined sound." Which is not at all
> satisfactory. It doesn't really distinguish music from any other sound
> at all.
>
> For that matter, your definitions above definitely include speech.
My definition includes every structure of sound wich can fit on a sound
mediacarrier in order
to be listened to. As soon as a sound is captured on a carrier (CD, tape,
video, etc...) for aesthetic purposes, it can be considered as "music".
That's what my definition is about.
Go to the beach, most people hardly notice consciously the aesthetic
qualities of waves crashing
sound.....Record it, release it on CD and immediatly a lot of new-age
people will buy it because
of its......yes indeed..aesthetic beauty. You see what I mean ??
Spoken word albums like William S. Burroughs' "Breaking through the grey
room" are
just dry speech, but : it is captured on a CD and that's what puts it in
a whole different context :
this way every, really EVERY sound, can be captured and will still feel
like "music" or at least something that is meant to be received by people
for aesthetic rather than scientific purposes.
We live in the realm of "man-made". Actions have to be stored in order to
grab attention.
> >All "experiences" are chemically induced, actually. What did you eat
All Experiences are chemically induced ?????? No...Experiences are
non-physical interpretations
wich CAUSE chemical substances to be formed in the brains and glands in
order to physically
feel them....They aren't the RESULT of chemical reactions....The chemicals
are rather needed to
translate a non-physical impression into the physical plane (the senses and
the body).
David, a.k.a: [ The lone inhabitant in the valley of sonic sanctuaries]
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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:58:43 +0100
From: Gabriel Maldonado
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To: Hans Mikelson
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Orbits on 3D Surfaces (bi-dimensional lookup oscillator)
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Thanks for the examples!
Some time ago I theorized the possibility to implement in Csound an
oscillator in which a variable bi-dimensional phase (i.e.an orbit) gives
the x-y coordinates of a
tri-dimensional continuos surface generating the amplitude values of the
output. Actually, in the case of very complex surfaces the lookup table
method can
save processing time during Csound performance.
The shape of the orbit (for example circular, elliptical,
cycloid or any other shape) as well as its translation in the x-y plane
could be modified during the performance of a note, giving a dynamic
timbre. One of the problems is to define bi-dimensional tables (in which
the 3-D surface will be stored) in Csound.
Another problem is interpolation (to increase sound quality and reduce
table length): how can I interpolate the points falling into the area
bounded by the triangles of the 3-d surface table?
I believe that it is possible to extend this concept beyond the 3rd
dimension, creating 3d orbits pointing to a four-dimensional surface
(but at present time I have not the mathematical background to formulate
this process).
Any idea?
--
Gabriel Maldonado
mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it
http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7041/home2.htm
Hans Mikelson wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I was in the book store tonight paging through Curtis Rhoades' (sp?)
> book
> on Computer Music and noticed a page with a picture of a surface being
>
> traced by an orbit. I've had a small collection of complex 3D
> surfaces of
> the form Z(x,y) which I wasn't sure how best to use to generate
> sounds. In
> the past I had just rastored through them snaking back and forth.
> Using
> orbit opens up a large number of possibilities. For example a
> circular
> orbit could trace along the surface and the Z(x(t), y(t)) is taken as
> the
> amplitude. Modulations could be applied to the circle center point,
> circle->ellipse. Instead of circular orbits chaotic oscillators could
>
> define the X, Y coordinates although these would not be tuned.
>
> I think something like the following will work:
>
> y=sin(t)
> x=cos(t)
>
> Z(x, y)=sin^2*(sqrt(x^2+y^2))
> Z(x, y)=ln(x^2+y^2)
> Z(x, y)=x-1/12*x^3-1/4*y^2+1/2
> Z(x, y)=-5*x/(x^2+y^2+1)
> Z(x, y)=1/3*x^3-x*y^2
> etc...
>
> These equations are from Clifford Pickover's "Computers and the
> Imagination"
> Start oscil can be used to generate sine and cosine. Then modulate by
>
> varying radius, center etc. This opens up a large class of
> synthesis...
>
> Bye,
> Hans Mikelson
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