metalic timbres / ring modulator

Date	1997-06-27 12:54
From	Christian Lyra
Subject	metalic timbres / ring modulator
	Hi all! I'm trying to make some metalic timbres with csound and I remember that some old synths have a ring modulator. Is there some type of ring modulator in Csound? Thanks, Christian Lyra Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08265; 27 Jun 97 18:54 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01856; 27 Jun 97 18:54 BST Received: (qmail 22048 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 17:54:31 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 17:54:31 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (SAA03400); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:49:41 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 18:49:31 +0100 Received: from rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45] by hermes via ESMTP (SAA03396); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:49:29 +0100 Received: from am.UCSC.EDU (26942@am.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.26]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4.cats-athena) with SMTP id KAA14258 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by am.UCSC.EDU (8.6.13/4.7) id KAA11851; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:49:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 10:49:40 -0700 (PDT) From: John Francis Beahan X-Sender: jfbeahan@am.UCSC.EDU To: csound mail list Subject: loscil Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Can soeone clarify this statement from the manual: "loscil samples the ftable audio at a rate determined by kcps, then multiplies the result by xamp. The sampling increment for kcps is dependent on the table's base-note frequency ibas, and is automatically adjusted if the orchestra sr value differs from that at which the source was recorded. In this unit, ftable is always sampled with interpolation." This statement does not seem to reflect what happens when we change the kcps rate. It is acting more like a notch filter. When we increase the rate we get only the higher frequency. When we set it at a lower rate we get only the lower frequency(if it is really low what we get is a rumbling sound). >From this statement we expect the best results to happen when we set it to the files sample rate. If someone could please clarify what is exactly happening with this rate in the loscil generator , it would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, John Beahan, Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08295; 27 Jun 97 19:06 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01930; 27 Jun 97 19:05 BST Received: (qmail 22085 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 18:05:48 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 18:05:48 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA03864); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:01:42 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:01:36 +0100 Received: from agora.stm.it [194.20.43.1] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA03856); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:01:32 +0100 Received: from x (ppp04-14.stm.it [194.20.251.142]) by agora.stm.it (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15598; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:00:56 +0200 (ITADST) Message-Id: <33B40058.6D794771@agora.stm.it> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:03:04 +0200 From: Gabriel Maldonado X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Lyra Cc: Csound mailing list Csound mailing list Subject: Re: metalic timbres / ring modulator X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Christian Lyra wrote: > > Hi all! > > I'm trying to make some metalic timbres with csound and I remember > that some old synths have a ring modulator. Is there some type of ring > modulator in Csound? > Thanks, > > Christian Lyra To make ring-modulation you must simply multiply two audio-rate signal! bye -- Gabriel Maldonado mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7041/home2.htm Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08335; 27 Jun 97 19:20 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02007; 27 Jun 97 19:20 BST Received: (qmail 22118 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 18:20:04 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 18:20:04 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA04608); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:16:22 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:16:12 +0100 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA [132.204.2.103] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA04579); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:16:10 +0100 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.2.70]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id OAA16789 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for ); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:15:31 -0400 Received: from mistral.ERE.UMontreal.CA by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/5.17) id OAA09246; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:15:31 -0400 Received: from GAP by mistral.ERE.UMontreal.CA (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/5.17) id OAA19121; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:15:28 -0400 Message-Id: <33B3FEF8.59E2@ere.umontreal.ca> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:57:12 -0400 From: Jean Piche X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01SGoldC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.3 IP32) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: csound mail list Subject: Reporting problems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk A friendly reminder to all you gentle folk out there in Csound land, in the hope of stopping a catastrophic trend: If you are faced with a situation such as : - the "fluppertail" opcode does not work and I dont understand it, - The cat meows loudly after being fed, - The parrot is dead. Please, if you want help, POST YOUR ORCHESTRA *AND* SCORE There is a 99% chance the problem is with your code and, in the off-chance that it's not, we all get to benefit from your discovery. We thank you for your continued support and hope you have a nice day! -- ________________________________________________________ Jean Piche Universite de Montreal http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~pichej http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/Org/CompoElectro/CEC/ Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08354; 27 Jun 97 19:21 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02024; 27 Jun 97 19:20 BST Received: (qmail 22126 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 18:20:45 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 18:20:45 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA04576); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:16:06 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:15:57 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu [144.91.3.20] by hermes via SMTP (TAA04553); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:15:50 +0100 Received: (qmail 2211 invoked by uid 2928); 27 Jun 1997 18:16:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:16:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Berry To: John Francis Beahan Cc: csound mail list Subject: Re: loscil In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk loscil simply reads the file at a variable rate. If you set the kcps equal to the ibas, then the file is played at normal speed for the normal length. If you set kcps to half of ibas, the file is played at half-speed (sounding a distorted octave down) and lasts twice as long. kcps= 2 * ibas plays at twice speed (octave up) and lasts half as long. This mimics the behavior of hardware samplers which assign a single sample to multiple keys - i.e multiple frequencies. You simply have to think of the ratio kcps/ibas to determine the alteration from the normal speed file playback. Mike Berry mikeb@mills.edu http://www.mills.edu/PEOPLE/gr.pages/mikeb.public.html/mikeb.homepage.html Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08364; 27 Jun 97 19:25 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02049; 27 Jun 97 19:24 BST Received: (qmail 22137 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 18:24:51 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 18:24:51 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA04984); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:20:45 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:20:38 +0100 Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA [132.204.2.103] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA04976); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:20:37 +0100 Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA [132.204.2.70]) by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with ESMTP id OAA16995 (8.6.11/IDA-1.6 for ); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:20:06 -0400 Received: from mistral.ERE.UMontreal.CA by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/5.17) id OAA09651; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:20:05 -0400 Received: from GAP by mistral.ERE.UMontreal.CA (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/5.17) id OAA19579; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:20:02 -0400 Message-Id: <33B4000A.1CFB@ere.umontreal.ca> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:01:46 -0400 From: Jean Piche X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01SGoldC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.3 IP32) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: csound Subject: Re: metalic timbres / ring modulator References: <33B40058.6D794771@agora.stm.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk > To make ring-modulation you must simply multiply two audio-rate signal! > Remembering, of course, that multiplying two "complex" signal will most likely result in awful noise. Best try using a sine as one of the sources...and progressively move on to a garbage truck. Ta! -- ________________________________________________________ Jean Piche Universite de Montreal http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~pichej http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/Org/CompoElectro/CEC/ Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08384; 27 Jun 97 19:55 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02150; 27 Jun 97 19:54 BST Received: (qmail 22182 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 18:54:45 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 18:54:45 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA05982); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:49:51 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:49:45 +0100 Received: from ella.mills.edu [144.91.3.20] by hermes via SMTP (TAA05975); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:49:43 +0100 Received: (qmail 24066 invoked by uid 2928); 27 Jun 1997 18:46:21 -0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:46:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Berry Reply-To: Mike Berry To: csound list Subject: Undeliverable message Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk This undeliverable message thing that we get when we post to the csound list seems to be generated by compuserve. There is an unknown address subscribed to the list. Somehow, the compuserve mail server is finding the original sender, not the list manager, and routing the message back to the original poster. I think it would be solved if the offending address were unsubscribed from the csound list. I think this may be the address : arl-img-5.compuserve.com Mike Berry mikeb@mills.edu http://www.mills.edu/PEOPLE/gr.pages/mikeb.public.html/mikeb.homepage.html Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08395; 27 Jun 97 20:01 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02183; 27 Jun 97 20:01 BST Received: (qmail 22195 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 19:01:10 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 19:01:10 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA06203); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:55:44 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 19:55:37 +0100 Received: from cbgw1.lucent.com [192.20.239.133] by hermes via SMTP (TAA06198); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:55:36 +0100 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Received: from mtm3.mt.lucent.com by cbig1.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id OAA02367; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:47:05 -0400 Received: from sdcpc2.mt.lucent.com by mtm3.mt.lucent.com (5.x/EMS-L sol2) id AA10788; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:55:28 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970627145714.006bedd0@mtm3.mt.lucent.com> X-Sender: sdcurtin@mtm3.mt.lucent.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:57:14 -0400 Original-To: From: Steven Curtin Subject: Re: metalic timbres / ring modulator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk At 02:01 PM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >> To make ring-modulation you must simply multiply two audio-rate signal! >> > >Remembering, of course, that multiplying two "complex" signal will most >likely result in awful noise. Best try using a sine as one of the >sources...and progressively move on to a garbage truck. Most Ring Modulators also cancel the input signals, which is why they're sometimes also called "suppressed-carrier modulators", so you would do something like this: rmout = (siga * sibg) - siga - sigb -------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Curtin http://www.emf.org/people_curtin.html Lucent Technologies - Bell Labs Innovations rm. 3C-208, 200 Laurel Ave S Middletown, NJ 07748-4801 U S A ph: (908)957-2996 fax: (908)957-6878 -------------------------------------------------------------- Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08484; 27 Jun 97 20:54 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02428; 27 Jun 97 20:54 BST Received: (qmail 22291 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 19:54:32 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 19:54:32 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA07931); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:49:09 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 20:49:03 +0100 Received: from lt@westnet.com [206.24.6.2] by hermes via ESMTP (UAA07920); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 20:48:56 +0100 Received: from localhost (lt@localhost) by westnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA03175; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:48:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Larry Troxler To: Steven Curtin Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: metalic timbres / ring modulator In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970627145714.006bedd0@mtm3.mt.lucent.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Steven Curtin wrote: > Most Ring Modulators also cancel the input signals, which is why they're > sometimes also called "suppressed-carrier modulators", so you would do > something like this: > > rmout = (siga * sibg) - siga - sigb > But aren't the input signals already effectively suppressed? For example, cos(awt)cos(bwt) = .5 ( cos((a-b)wt) + cos((a+b)wt) ), so there's already no strength at the input frequencies on the output. What you're suggesting, it seems to me, would be in effect adding the input signals back in. Or am I missing something? Larry -- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA -- Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08557; 27 Jun 97 21:41 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa02616; 27 Jun 97 21:40 BST Received: (qmail 22374 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1997 20:40:53 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 27 Jun 1997 20:40:53 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (VAA09562); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 21:34:28 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Fri, 27 Jun 97 21:34:22 +0100 Received: from rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45] by hermes via ESMTP (VAA09555); Fri, 27 Jun 1997 21:34:20 +0100 Received: from am.UCSC.EDU (26942@am.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.26]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4.cats-athena) with SMTP id NAA28338 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by am.UCSC.EDU (8.6.13/4.7) id NAA18867; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:34:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:34:31 -0700 (PDT) From: John Francis Beahan X-Sender: jfbeahan@am.UCSC.EDU To: csound mail list Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Has anyone else experienced a problem mailing to this list. Everytime I mail to this list I get a message back saying: Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100660,2353 loscil Your message could not be delivered as addressed. Yet, my message still gets posted. Any explainations will help. Thanx John Beahan Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08810; 28 Jun 97 1:05 BST Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa03253; 28 Jun 97 1:05 BST Received: (qmail 22780 invoked from network); 28 Jun 1997 00:05:20 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (194.83.11.25) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 28 Jun 1997 00:05:20 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (AAA14936); Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:59:59 +0100 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk by maths.exeter.ac.uk; Sat, 28 Jun 97 00:59:53 +0100 Received: from root@big.fishnet.net [205.216.133.3] by hermes via ESMTP (AAA14932); Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:59:52 +0100 Received: from sinewave (port049.vta.fishnet.net [205.216.133.198]) by big.fishnet.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA29941; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:01:45 -0700 Message-Id: <33B45408.7F03915A@rcsreg.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 17:00:08 -0700 From: Toby X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.1.30 i486) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Lyra Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: metalic timbres / ring modulator References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Christian Lyra wrote: > > Hi all! > > I'm trying to make some metalic timbres with csound I trust that you have looked into Frequency Modulation in the audio range. Using uncommon modulator to carrier frequency ratios can yield remarkable chime, bell, or no-fundamental metalic sounds. Toby -There otta be a law-