| Hello,
Is there any other difference between the use of loscil and
loscil3 besides the interpolation scheme ?
I'm asking because I get sound with loscil but not with loscil3
(everything else is unchanged, I just replaced loscil with loscil3)
I was using a looped violin sound in AIFF format.
(I'm using Csound-3.50 on Linux)
Thomas
PS: The click problem in V3.50 went away when I increased the buffers
from 64 bytes to 1024 bytes (-b1024 -B1024). Of course I get a delay
then...
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From: Greg Sullivan - SHL
To: Csound Mailing List
Subject: RE: oscil3: bug or feature - oops!
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:24:29 +1100
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Ok - results.
I used a 4 point sine wave, and heavily down sampled. (like Gabriel
did). Intuitively, I personally would have agreed with Gabriel -
Gen08 *does* look "smoother". The peaks are definitely rounder
with Gen08. However, as surprising as it may seem, upon analysing
the output with a spectrometer, oscil3 is actually doing
a better job. The signal to noise ratio is reported to be
13.1 dBA for oscil3, and 10.3dBA for gen08. Total Harmonic
Distortion + Noise (THD+N) for oscil3 is 22.1%, and for gen08 it
is 30.7%. Again, this is in oscil3's favour.
So I don't think we can say gen08 is better. It is certainly different
though.
And oscil3 may even be superior to gen08 if my measurements are valid.
I have again attached my orc & sco files.
The spectral analysis software I am using is SpectraPRO
from http://www.eskimo.com/~cetacean/software.html
(unfortunately I only have the demo copy and mine expires
in about 11 more days. Does anyone know of a cheaper program
than this one that can do the above noise calculations?)
Note that I had to paste together multiple cycles in order to
get a long enough analysis duration for SpectraPRO to work.
I think it has a bug with very short waveforms. Yes, I *was*
very careful in my cutting and pasting. :)
Greg.
ORC
----
sr = 44100
kr = 100
ksmps = 441
nchnls = 1
instr 1
aout oscil3 30000,p4,1
out aout
endin
instr 2
aout oscil 30000,p4,2
out aout
endin
SCO
----
f1 0 4 10 1
f2 0 2048 8 0 128 1 128 0 128 -1 128 0 128 1 128 0 128 -1 128 0 128 1 128 0
128 -1 128 0 128 1 128 0 128 -1 128
i1 0 3 86.1328125
i2 3.5 3 21.533203125
e
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From: Greg Sullivan - SHL
To: Csound Mailing List
Subject: RE: oscil3: bug or feature - oops!
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:54:40 +1100
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I don't trust the spectral analysis software and/or my measurment
techniques. They spectrum looks considerably worse for oscil3,
and it sounds a lot worse too, just listening to it. I can't
understand why the noise figures are lower/better for oscil3. I
think I'd have to agree, finally, that gen08 is better. I'd love
for someone to explain this apparent paradox though.
Greg.
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:44:18 -0500 (EST)
From: gamma_orion@iname.com
Subject: PMAX???
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Hello,
I would like to know if there is a reasonn for PMAX compile time
variable to be set as low as 150 by default?
If I want to create an ftable using more than 1000 pfield, it is a best
way to set PMAX to that value and recompile or to put the data in a
sound file format and use gen01?
Thanks a lot for the help
--
Antoine Lefebvre
gamma_orion@iname.com
http://pages.infinit.net/linux/music/music.html
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:35:21 -0600
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Daniel Nass
Subject: Tuba
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Does anyone know where I could grab some tuba samples off a website? Thanks...
Daniel
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From: pete moss
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To: Greg Sullivan - SHL
CC: Csound Mailing List
Subject: Re: oscil3: bug or feature - oops!
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just an observation, but why dont you try giving gen8 just one period of the
waveform like gen10 has? does this make a difference? it just seems like you
are comparing two things that arent exactly the same. maybe try
f2 0 2048 8 0 512 1 512 0 512 -1 512 0
also, with you current f2, you dont specify the end point value.
pete
Greg Sullivan - SHL wrote:
> Ok - results.
>
> I used a 4 point sine wave, and heavily down sampled. (like Gabriel
> did). Intuitively, I personally would have agreed with Gabriel -
> Gen08 *does* look "smoother". The peaks are definitely rounder
> with Gen08. However, as surprising as it may seem, upon analysing
> the output with a spectrometer, oscil3 is actually doing
> a better job. The signal to noise ratio is reported to be
> 13.1 dBA for oscil3, and 10.3dBA for gen08. Total Harmonic
> Distortion + Noise (THD+N) for oscil3 is 22.1%, and for gen08 it
> is 30.7%. Again, this is in oscil3's favour.
>
> So I don't think we can say gen08 is better. It is certainly different
> though.
> And oscil3 may even be superior to gen08 if my measurements are valid.
>
> I have again attached my orc & sco files.
>
> The spectral analysis software I am using is SpectraPRO
> from http://www.eskimo.com/~cetacean/software.html
> (unfortunately I only have the demo copy and mine expires
> in about 11 more days. Does anyone know of a cheaper program
> than this one that can do the above noise calculations?)
> Note that I had to paste together multiple cycles in order to
> get a long enough analysis duration for SpectraPRO to work.
> I think it has a bug with very short waveforms. Yes, I *was*
> very careful in my cutting and pasting. :)
>
> Greg.
>
> ORC
> ----
> sr = 44100
> kr = 100
> ksmps = 441
> nchnls = 1
>
> instr 1
> aout oscil3 30000,p4,1
> out aout
> endin
>
> instr 2
> aout oscil 30000,p4,2
> out aout
> endin
>
> SCO
> ----
> f1 0 4 10 1
> f2 0 2048 8 0 128 1 128 0 128 -1 128 0 128 1 128 0 128 -1 128 0 128 1 128 0
> 128 -1 128 0 128 1 128 0 128 -1 128
> i1 0 3 86.1328125
> i2 3.5 3 21.533203125
> e
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:38:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Fred Floberg
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On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 rwd@cableinet.co.uk wrote:
>
> I just wonder whether Barry Vercoe (remember him? what did he do?)
> might have anything to say about all this!
I wouldn't want to hazzard a guess.
> BTW it was my impression that in fact Linus Torwalds does keep a fairly
> firm grip on distriutions of the 'official' Linux kernel, to ensure it
> does not get broken, and that there is a level playing field for
> everybody else, and that this is one of the prime reasons that Linux is
> so successful now.
True, but by the same token his cohorts don't fling vitriol at the
developers of, say, RTLinux.
> Above all, let us try to remember that Csound was originally created as
> a tool for composers, so that they would not have to reinvent countless
> wheels in C (or in any other language for that matter) in order to
> create mature and original compositions. Csound users (who in most cases
> are highly intelligent and experienced musicians) are not second-class
> citizens below programmers, they are partners in a vital dyad.
Hold on now. Are you directing this comment at me? When did I ever
even imply that Csound users were second class citizens below programmers?
My point was, and I think it was pretty clearly made, that csound-unix-dev
is where the "C coding action", so to speak, was to be found, and that that
was something I was interested in.
Allow me to quote myself:
> I'm most certainly not saying that
> user related topics are a bad thing. I've learned quite a lot from this
> list.
> My underatanding is that John Fitch has the express personal endorsement
> of Barry Vercoe for the maintenance and careful development of Csound;
> that is a win-win situation for Csound users everywhere. He is acting in
> loco parentis here, and if there is any moral imperative, it is that
> anyone making substantive changes to Csound, or fixing bugs in canonical
> cources, should communicate them to him one way or another.
Do those who complain so vociferously know what has been discussed between
John and the csound-unix-dev people in private email? I didn't think so.
The fact of the matter is that I've coresponded directly with John several times
and have told him that I would be pleased to death to have what I've contributed
to ULCsound incorporated into the canonical source, if considered worhty. I've
also offered my assistance to that end, several times.
I've never heard back from him though. Neither yea or nay.
Given that he hasn't gotten back to me on that score, what am I supposed to do,
sit on my hands?
I should also point out that I'm under the impression that John reads
csound-unix-dev because he once quoted from an article I'd posted there
in a response to me on the subject at the time. That, to me, implies that
he is aware of the substantive changes to Csound, or bug fixes in canonical
sources.
How much redundancy in communication must there be before all parties are
satisfied?
> I am well aware that some Linux programmers consider themselves a breed
> apart,
Oh, my....
> and that fascination with a program's inner workings is
> justification enough, but surely, we are all the same, and all working
> together, aren't we?
I'd like to think so. And in fact I've expressed that very view to John.
I likened csound-unix-dev to a "proving ground" for experimental enhancements
to Official Csound, and that it was with the implicit hope that the code I
write would find its way back into the canonical sources. But I never heard
back from him, as I've said.
> Perhaps it's time we all got togther for a toga-party sometime.
I'd be happy to show up with a sheet on, but I'm afraid that some people
here would jump to the conclusion that I was a klansman or something.
> Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
> http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
On another, more pleasant topic. I too am very interested in multi-channel
audio. I've begun work on a file player for multi-channel wavs and aiffs, etc.
using libaudiofile and ALSA drivers. True, I'm trying to use two stereo cards,
and I'm aware of the issues relating to unsyncronized clocks on seperate cards,
but I'm trying it anyway :-). I went to your web page and picked up a snippet of
asylum.wav to be sure that I had a good example of a multi-channel wav file to
test with. I also took advantage of your links to the RIFF and AIFF
specifications. Thank you for making that available, Richard.
If/when I can make any contributions to your effort I'll be sure to get in
touch with you.
Fred
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Can someone tell me how to unsubscibe?
Thanks,
Anthony
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From: pete moss
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To: Greg Sullivan - SHL ,
Csound Mailing List
Subject: Re: oscil3: bug or feature - oops!
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actually, now that i know a bit more about the problem, how do you account for the
zero slope at the endpoints of gen8? this warp on the ends accounts for some
distortion. i think gen8 doesnt make very good sine waves.
personally, when using sine waves in f tables, i prefer to use large sizes, such
as 8192 or 16384. this greatly minimizes the need for interpolation. but i still
use oscili over oscil. and if oscil3 sticks around, i will probably continue to
use it.
(is that the kind of info you were looking for, john?)
pete
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From: Greg Sullivan - SHL
To: Csound Mailing List
Subject: RE: oscil3: bug or feature - oops!
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:26:55 +1100
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Pete,
The reason I used multiple cycles in Gen08 is that I wanted
to compare apples to apples. Gen08 does not, to the best of
my knowledge, interpolate with wraparound - it treats the
ftable as a linear list, instead of a cyclic list. Naturally,
we want to test the interpolation for continuous tones,
not a single cycle. Oscil3 interpolates the table with wraparound.
So, I used multiple cycles, and when I did the spectral analysis,
I used the "stable" part of the waveform, without the yucky things that
happen at the end
points. I believe that my test makes both oscil3 and Gen08
do exactly the same amount of interpolation - as far as
practical, anyway.
But yes, I did make a mistake and leave off the end point.
That wouldn't change the results I don't think, because I didn't
use that part of the waveform anyway. If anything, it would
only make Gen08 even better than it already is.
Seeing that Gen08 is performing better than oscil3, I agree
with Gabriel that oscil3 (et al) should be examined closely,
to determine why this difference is occurring.
Greg.
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From: pete moss
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just to further exhaust this topic, i tested oscil and oscili against oscil3 at
three different table sizes. (5, 257, and 1025) at 5, oscil outputs a square
wave, oscili outputs a triangle wave, and oscil3 outputs a sine wave with
points at the maximum and minimum.
at 257, oscili outputs a sine wave with an added freq at 12800 hz, while oscil3
outputs a very clean sine wave. at 1025, there is virtually no difference that
i or my software (cool edit pro) was able to distinguish.
below is a modifed version of the work that greg posted earlier. BTW, i love
the new .csd format. it is so much easier to use for standard things.
pete
sr = 44100
kr = 4410
ksmps = 10
nchnls = 1
instr 1
aout oscil3 30000,p4,1
out aout
endin
instr 2
aout oscili 30000,p4,1
out aout
endin
f1 0 1025 10 1
i1 0 3 50
i2 3.5 3 50
e
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To: Greg Sullivan - SHL ,
csound
Subject: Re: oscil3: bug or feature - oops!
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i realized why you did multiple periods after i wrote the email. sorry for
misunderstanding.
i also agree that gen8 beats oscil3 (at least in the middle), but oscil3
sure is much better than the other oscilators.
pete
Greg Sullivan - SHL wrote:
> Pete,
> The reason I used multiple cycles in Gen08 is that I wanted
> to compare apples to apples. Gen08 does not, to the best of
> my knowledge, interpolate with wraparound - it treats the
> ftable as a linear list, instead of a cyclic list. Naturally,
> we want to test the interpolation for continuous tones,
> not a single cycle. Oscil3 interpolates the table with wraparound.
> So, I used multiple cycles, and when I did the spectral analysis,
> I used the "stable" part of the waveform, without the yucky things that
> happen at the end
> points. I believe that my test makes both oscil3 and Gen08
> do exactly the same amount of interpolation - as far as
> practical, anyway.
>
> But yes, I did make a mistake and leave off the end point.
> That wouldn't change the results I don't think, because I didn't
> use that part of the waveform anyway. If anything, it would
> only make Gen08 even better than it already is.
>
> Seeing that Gen08 is performing better than oscil3, I agree
> with Gabriel that oscil3 (et al) should be examined closely,
> to determine why this difference is occurring.
>
> Greg.
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From: Anders Andersson
Reply-To: pipe@algonet.se
To: CSound list
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:47:03 +0100
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Hi there ppl all around the world! :D
As my life tends to get more and more concentrated around music and
electronics, and those two together, I am getting more and more interested in
what universities there are out there that teaches electronics,
computerscience and music at the same time?
I should be very interested in learning all the steps neccesary to design and
build a state of the art synthesizer, both the sound-synthesis-theory, some
assembler for some popular DSP's and how to design and implement all of my
theories in real life electronics.
As i happen to be cursed and live in Sweden, it doesn't matter where in the
world the scools are, as I have to move anyway.
.--- -- - -
| Anders "Pipe/Nature" Andersson, pipe@algonet.se
| Proud member of the Amiga community, Nature and Mensa Sweden.
:
ps: I'm now very tired, so my english is not what it should be! ds
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Anders Andersson wrote:
>
> Hi there ppl all around the world! :D
>
> As my life tends to get more and more concentrated around music and
> electronics, and those two together, I am getting more and more interested in
> what universities there are out there that teaches electronics,
> computerscience and music at the same time?
Here's a link, from NoTAM:
http://notam.uio.no/notam/naboer-e.html
Sean Costello
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:31:48 +0100 (ROM )
From: Nicola Bernardini
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: official and unofficial (was Re: b (ignore first))
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Dear jpff, dear all on the csound list,
I already told countless times the reasons why the unofficial tree
started, so I won't clutter the mailing list any longer with this
(I can send the story privately to whoever asks).
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
[snip - no comments on inlines]
> As for helping, you could do what I do or did; I sent copies of
> changes to those I knew were maintaining trees. I did take yoiur
> sources once and do diffs. That took most of a week, a week in which
> other thgings were not done. Many other people send me code, code
> fragments, assistences etc. That is helpful to me, and I believe to
> others.
so you did it once. I do it at each and every release you do, and I think
it's right. I don't expect you nor anybody else to send me stuff, and a
number of people can do the same I do because they have access to the
CVS repository. I got organized, and with some care it takes 3 to 6 hours
to do the whole merge (yes, in the mean time other things are not done
here too:). Btw, I did in the past sent you many times code fixes,
Makefiles, etc. and never got a reply. And I want to repeat again: I
did'nt expect you to reply - but I got organized for the csound code
to serve the purposes I needed to serve. As you well know, the unofficial
distribution features: a configuration setup (the standard linux one,
or rather, the GNU-specific one), a linux-specific version of midirecv.c
(because some of us feel it would be better to have platform specific
files rather than zillions of ifdefs), ALSA audio drivers for rtaudio
(linux-specific), the csound side of ipc sliders to make a unix counter
part of your control opcode (I coded that one and duly announced I was
doing it), linux scheduler priority handling and along with that,
GNU long options handling in order to use that as an option. We also
added all of Maldonado's opcodes, and since you're integrating them too,
little by little we're removing the additions to support the canonical
sources. Announce mails notwithstanding, maybe it is not clear that
all of this is freely available from ftp://musart.dist.unige.it/CSOUND.
>
> If you want to take over maintaining the sources for all platforms we
> can talk about a change date. By the way, I do most of my development
> on Linux and SGI, so you ar not the only people using Unix development
> platforms. At present the only way I know of inmcorporating your
> changes is to ftp the whole source, take it home on DAT, and do diff
> -r and emerge on all those which change. Do you maintain a ChangeLog?
> I did not see one in your tree.
I don't intend to take over any maintaining at all: I don't like doing it,
nor I find any particular heroism in doing it. As I said many times before,
I did it to have things done the way I liked, and it just so happened
that other people liked this and joined in. As I said before, I find the
idea of maintaining a canonical linux tree excellent: linux people has
a wider choice, as Windows people do. And competition is not my cup of
tea at all, as you should have understood a long time ago: there are so
many people using linux and unix, what do you mean 'so you are not the
only people'? In the CVS tree there's a ChangeLog maintained automatically
by CVS. It's called ChangeLog. It still has an unfortunate bug/feature of
CVS that duplicates some of the messages, but for the rest it keeps
track of things. Futhermore, with CVS we can track down every comma
changed from 3.482 up to now if we need to (sometimes we do).
So: to speak more practically, what would you like me to do? Short of
keeping things as they are (not so bad after all, emotional outburst
left aside), I can send you the diffs between UL 3.50.0.0a and
3.50 - I doubt that this is of any help, but that is easy (and perhaps
the only thing) to do.
ciao
Nicola
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:39:02 -0500
From: troy straszheim
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> Given that, then my only response to those who make the accusations listed above
> is to quote Thomas Jefferson, "The right of the people to freedom of speech
> does not include the right to be taken seriously."
Well then, thanks to Fred for extending the privilege of being taken
seriously, since he has. I got some vitriol on his shirt that wasn't
intended for him. And don't call me anybody's crony without consulting
them, they'll probably take it as an insult.
Nothing that Fred's been doing really comes under my (admittedly shrill)
attack; making and submitting improvements/fixes is quite a different
thing than
-- further accusations removed --
So to Fred in particular and also to others I apologize for the phrase
"Linux guys", among others. Obviously my generalization is unjustified
and offensive.
Perhaps I have misunderstood the dynamic of this other tree. Nicola's
"troy, are you feeling alright?" is no help. Why this fragmentation?
"You can come get it if you want to" is not an answer: There's a good
reason, out there somewhere. Is it easier to get solid development done
on the other tree? If there's a valid complaint about the canonical
tree or its maintenance it should be addressed.
My imperatives are not moral, but common sense. I apologize for the
moral overtones; now here is the sense: The canonical csound is only
50000 lines - this is still pretty small: gcc-2.8.1 is 697880 lines,
glibc-2.0.6 is 292000. According to Nicola, the diff between the linux
and canonical trees is already 500K (approx 3000 lines difference); that
is a lot of merging to do, depending on how much the Linux changes
temporarily break other versions, which they inevitably will. The cost
of fragmenting the source is high, and the net result is more work for
everybody, as mentioned, trawling around the net to find the "right"
version, one having one crucial feature, another having a different
crucial feature - these situations inevitably come about. It's just
hassle, hassle, hassle.
troy
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:31:48 +0100 (ROM )
From: Nicola Bernardini
To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: official and unofficial (was Re: b (ignore first))
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Dear jpff, dear all on the csound list,
I already told countless times the reasons why the unofficial tree
started, so I won't clutter the mailing list any longer with this
(I can send the story privately to whoever asks).
On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
[snip - no comments on inlines]
> As for helping, you could do what I do or did; I sent copies of
> changes to those I knew were maintaining trees. I did take yoiur
> sources once and do diffs. That took most of a week, a week in which
> other thgings were not done. Many other people send me code, code
> fragments, assistences etc. That is helpful to me, and I believe to
> others.
so you did it once. I do it at each and every release you do, and I think
it's right. I don't expect you nor anybody else to send me stuff, and a
number of people can do the same I do because they have access to the
CVS repository. I got organized, and with some care it takes 3 to 6 hours
to do the whole merge (yes, in the mean time other things are not done
here too:). Btw, I did in the past sent you many times code fixes,
Makefiles, etc. and never got a reply. And I want to repeat again: I
did'nt expect you to reply - but I got organized for the csound code
to serve the purposes I needed to serve. As you well know, the unofficial
distribution features: a configuration setup (the standard linux one,
or rather, the GNU-specific one), a linux-specific version of midirecv.c
(because some of us feel it would be better to have platform specific
files rather than zillions of ifdefs), ALSA audio drivers for rtaudio
(linux-specific), the csound side of ipc sliders to make a unix counter
part of your control opcode (I coded that one and duly announced I was
doing it), linux scheduler priority handling and along with that,
GNU long options handling in order to use that as an option. We also
added all of Maldonado's opcodes, and since you're integrating them too,
little by little we're removing the additions to support the canonical
sources. Announce mails notwithstanding, maybe it is not clear that
all of this is freely available from ftp://musart.dist.unige.it/CSOUND.
>
> If you want to take over maintaining the sources for all platforms we
> can talk about a change date. By the way, I do most of my development
> on Linux and SGI, so you ar not the only people using Unix development
> platforms. At present the only way I know of inmcorporating your
> changes is to ftp the whole source, take it home on DAT, and do diff
> -r and emerge on all those which change. Do you maintain a ChangeLog?
> I did not see one in your tree.
I don't intend to take over any maintaining at all: I don't like doing it,
nor I find any particular heroism in doing it. As I said many times before,
I did it to have things done the way I liked, and it just so happened
that other people liked this and joined in. As I said before, I find the
idea of maintaining a canonical linux tree excellent: linux people has
a wider choice, as Windows people do. And competition is not my cup of
tea at all, as you should have understood a long time ago: there are so
many people using linux and unix, what do you mean 'so you are not the
only people'? In the CVS tree there's a ChangeLog maintained automatically
by CVS. It's called ChangeLog. It still has an unfortunate bug/feature of
CVS that duplicates some of the messages, but for the rest it keeps
track of things. Futhermore, with CVS we can track down every comma
changed from 3.482 up to now if we need to (sometimes we do).
So: to speak more practically, what would you like me to do? Short of
keeping things as they are (not so bad after all, emotional outburst
left aside), I can send you the diffs between UL 3.50.0.0a and
3.50 - I doubt that this is of any help, but that is easy (and perhaps
the only thing) to do.
ciao
Nicola
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.
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Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:49:49 +0100
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:49:47 +0100 (ROM )
From: Nicola Bernardini
To: troy straszheim
cc: Csound mailing list
Subject: Re: do you use cold or hot water on vitriol?
In-Reply-To: <36A3B806.8920F97D@resophonic.com>
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On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, troy straszheim wrote:
[snip]
> temporarily break other versions, which they inevitably will. The cost
> of fragmenting the source is high, and the net result is more work for
> everybody, as mentioned, trawling around the net to find the "right"
> version, one having one crucial feature, another having a different
> crucial feature - these situations inevitably come about. It's just
> hassle, hassle, hassle.
Ah! dear Troy, there's an easy solution to this particular problem:
just ignore us - I promise you won't miss much ;-)
ciao
Nicola
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.
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From: Michael Gogins
To: madgello@oz.net, Csound mailing list
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos
Subject: Re: Macros and operator overload
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:04:49 -0500
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The part about 2 overloads having similar conversions could apply to
function overloading as well as to operator overloading, so you have to look
at the exact text of the error message and see what overloads are in
question. Usually, you can use a type cast to resolve the expression to the
desired overload.
The multi-threaded libraries are slightly less efficient, in theory, than
the single-threaded libraries. However, I always use the multi-threaded
libraries because sometimes I link my Csound code into multi-threaded
systems, and have encountered no ill effects from doing so.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ricardo MadGello
To: Csound mailing list
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 11:11 PM
Subject: Macros and operator overload
>Michael Gogins wrote the following snippet
>--
>What is wrong with macros is:
>:snip
>For example, in C++, I tend to avoid operator overloading, use only simple
>exception handling, and use regular "for" loops for iterators rather than
>creating special iterator classes.
>:snip
>------------------
>
>Is this what is causing the following message when I try to compile Csound
>Canonical sources with VC++ 5?
>------
>:snip
>CWIN.CPP
>E:\Csound\CWIN.CPP(3807) : error C2666: '!=' : 2 overloads have similar
>conversions
>:snip
>Error executing cl.exe.
>winsound.exe - 1 error(s), 0 warning(s)
>------
>
>All I'm trying to do is recompile for Pentium Pro optimized executable with
>no source changes. This message shows when I simply bring the 3.50
>WinSound.MSW into visual studio and hit "rebuild all", also.
>
>----------------
>Along another line, is there anything added or taken away when using the
>Multi-Threaded libraries for this?
>
>
>Sorry if this is a stupid question, just getting started here. If this
>and/or the answer is off-topic for Csound list, send private.
>
>
>Thanks,
>Ricardo MadGello
>madgello@oz.net
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk
>[mailto:owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Michael Gogins
>Sent: Sunday, January 17, 1999 7:03 PM
>To: J P Fitch; Nicola Bernardini
>Cc: Csound mailing list
>Subject: Re: b (ignore first)
>
>
>What is wrong with macros is:
>
>:snip
>
>For example, in C++, I tend to avoid operator overloading, use only simple
>exception handling, and use regular "for" loops for iterators rather than
>creating special iterator classes.
>
>:snip
>
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:01:01 +0200
From: Yair Kass
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Subject: Quad Prob
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Hey list,
got a quad question for you all.
I'm using now the SB LIve and am trying to get 4 outputs,
since it supports 4 speakers (2 stereo Line Out).
But when I wrote a simple code that uses 'nchnls=4' and 'outq'
DirectCsound(2.5 btw) said something like:
"unable to create a primary buffer for DirectSound"
Window's title for that warning window was:
"Unable to open a DirectSound device, maybe DirectX is not installed"
But DirectX (i think 5) IS installed as Iv'e been working with
DirectCsound
for a while now.
I'm ignorant in these matters.
Any advice ?
Tnx ;-))
Yair
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:22:04 +0000
From: Richard Dobson
Organization: Composers Desktop Project
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Subject: Re: troy's rant
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The impression I got from the way your post reads is that
csound-unix-dev is the ~only~ place where ~the~ 'coding action' is. I
think the double negative has a lot to do with that - it can so easily
read as a put-down, even though that wasn't your intention.
While developments on the Mac version and on the various Windows
versions are reported to this list in detail (with frequent discussions
at C-code level), somehow the csound-unix-dev list has given the
impression of being somewhat aloof, as if to say 'hey, ~we~ are the real
programmers here'. On the other hand, I am very conscious of the
remarkable work that has been done for Csound on the PC and Mac
platforms, over the last few years, familiar to everyone on this list,
so it seems to me there is a whole lot of important and advanced
programming going on for Csound that is not unix-specific. There is a
lot of C-coding action out here too!
I've even contributed a few bits myself to Csound, here and there, such
as the reentrancy code which Michael Gogins developed to create his
re-entrant Csound ActiveX control - a remarkable piece of programming,
even if it is mere Windows, that favourite target of so many unix
programmers (please don't take that personally!). My code is available
in the sources (covered by an ifdef, and certainly in need of extending
now) for the unix people to play with too, if they are interested. I
would be pleased to death to have what I've contributed to Csound
incorporated into the unix source, if considered worthy. But I am
prepared to be patient... :-)
I am glad you find the multi-channel stuff useful. Now that I have a
Pulsar with the multi-channel WAVE drivers I can play m/c files myself
now, though I can't hear more than four channels together until I attach
something to the ADAT port. Now I can try out the quad opcodes in
real-time!
Richard Dobson
Fred Floberg wrote:
>
[snip]
> Hold on now. Are you directing this comment at me? When did I ever
> even imply that Csound users were second class citizens below programmers?
>
> My point was, and I think it was pretty clearly made, that csound-unix-dev
> is where the "C coding action", so to speak, was to be found, and that that
> was something I was interested in.
>
--
Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
CDP homepage: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm
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Reply-To: madgello@oz.net
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From: Ricardo MadGello
To: Csound list
Subject: RE: Quad Prob on SB Live!
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:57:42 -0800
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I have the same issue.
Perhaps the Maestro(s) can assist?
=======
Perhaps someone on the list has success with multi-channel Csound for less
than $800 (american) for at least four channels A/D I/O. I did go to your
page R. Dobson and caught the part about Pulsar. Will look that up ASAP.
;-)
Preferrably a PCI card that has Win95 / NT / Linux on Alpha and Intel
drivers as I'm spreading this Csound stuff to an Alpha box or two at work
this next month or so-ish.
===========
I'm starting to think that this SB Live! card is not what Direct or regular
Csound wants for greater than two channels of output. But most of that
leads over to probably one of the rudest newsgroups I've seen under the
guise of community support -
server is:
news.soundblaster.com
groups are:
creative.products.sound_blaster.live &
creative.products.sound_blaster.live.music
===============
On the quad output side of things:
Asking Creative for EAX documentation led nowhere since I'm not a big-time
game developer.
I mentioned a need for the information in relation to Csound work and called
attention to the fact that it is a global project that came out of work done
at MIT which spawned from work done at Bell Labs, Stanford, etc., etc.
No response.
===============
>From here on we get a bit SB Live! specific in the department of getting
sound files into Csound via Live's digital I/O. Of interest only to users
of Csound AND Live!, probably.
======
The big pain with the Live! card is an alleged up-sample to 48,000 for
anything coming in digitally even when I'm recording to WAV/AIFF from my own
work recorded at 44,100 on DAT on it's way back through down-sampling to
44,100 in whatever wave editor I'm using at the time. I do not have the
equipment or time to verify this but something horrible is happening when I
go from my 44,100sps DAT's to 44,100sps WAV or AIFF.
The SB Live card sounds great for Csound projects but it's really ticking me
off when I try to pull work in from the DAT that I recorded at 44,100 in
anticipation of heading toward audio CD minus all the data conversion steps.
I'll dig into this further but I should probably post it to their newsgroup
Does anyone have any thoughts on how to verify whether a digital signal has
been corrupted via this up/down-sampling for what should be a straight
through process?
Since I'm new here, I should ask how you all usually handle fringe
hardware-specific Csound related issues such as this.
For me, it's directly related to my success with working with Csound but
it's such a narrow topic barely related to Csound in the majority's eyes
(I'm assuming)?
Thanks All.
RMG out
Good Luck Yair!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk
[mailto:owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Yair Kass
Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 6:01 PM
To: Csound list
Subject: Quad Prob
Hey list,
got a quad question for you all.
I'm using now the SB LIve and am trying to get 4 outputs,
since it supports 4 speakers (2 stereo Line Out).
But when I wrote a simple code that uses 'nchnls=4' and 'outq'
DirectCsound(2.5 btw) said something like:
"unable to create a primary buffer for DirectSound"
Window's title for that warning window was:
"Unable to open a DirectSound device, maybe DirectX is not installed"
But DirectX (i think 5) IS installed as Iv'e been working with
DirectCsound
for a while now.
I'm ignorant in these matters.
Any advice ?
Tnx ;-))
Yair
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:51:41 +0100
From: Gabriel Maldonado
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Subject: Re: Quad Prob
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Simply DirectCsound doesn't support realtime quadraphony yet!
BtW I suggest all to pass to DirectX 6.0 as release 5.0 doesn't operate correctly with
some computers (such as with my Pentium II 400).
--
Gabriel Maldonado
http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm
Yair Kass wrote:
>
> Hey list,
> got a quad question for you all.
> I'm using now the SB LIve and am trying to get 4 outputs,
> since it supports 4 speakers (2 stereo Line Out).
> But when I wrote a simple code that uses 'nchnls=4' and 'outq'
> DirectCsound(2.5 btw) said something like:
> "unable to create a primary buffer for DirectSound"
>
> Window's title for that warning window was:
> "Unable to open a DirectSound device, maybe DirectX is not installed"
>
> But DirectX (i think 5) IS installed as Iv'e been working with
> DirectCsound
> for a while now.
> I'm ignorant in these matters.
> Any advice ?
>
> Tnx ;-))
> Yair
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:22:27 +0000
From: Richard Dobson
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To: Yair Kass
CC: Csound list
Subject: Re: Quad Prob
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The SB-Live doesn't have a single quad WAVE device (the crucial thing),
so Csound can't use it, and DirectSound probably doesn't like it either.
I am still investigating this issue. Full multi-channel WAV support may
not reach DirectSound, etc, until Windows2000.
The ordinary Media Player can play back a quad or larger file via the
m/c WAVE driver, but the new one which is DirectShow-based rejects it.
Richard Dobson
Yair Kass wrote:
>
> Hey list,
> got a quad question for you all.
> I'm using now the SB LIve and am trying to get 4 outputs,
> since it supports 4 speakers (2 stereo Line Out).
> But when I wrote a simple code that uses 'nchnls=4' and 'outq'
> DirectCsound(2.5 btw) said something like:
> "unable to create a primary buffer for DirectSound"
>
> Window's title for that warning window was:
> "Unable to open a DirectSound device, maybe DirectX is not installed"
>
> But DirectX (i think 5) IS installed as Iv'e been working with
> DirectCsound
> for a while now.
> I'm ignorant in these matters.
> Any advice ?
>
> Tnx ;-))
> Yair
--
Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
CDP homepage: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:30:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Aker
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Macintosh Perf source code
Message-ID:
Composer: Philip Aker
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I'd just like to note that insofar as being receptive to
suggestions and changes for source, Matt Ingalls has been
especially obliging - having already merged as much as possible
of the items I sent over into the forth-comming Macintosh
distribution.
We are now on a second round of exchange. Items in this
recent submission include:
* Modest speed gains in R. Boulanger's TrapDemo rendering:
68K - ~535 seconds. (35 seconds less than the previous version (best
case))
ppc - ~15.3 seconds. Averaging .7 seconds faster
* Implemented Marco Piovanelli's WASTE text engine - meaning
that any previous 32k limitation of screen listings may be
removed from binary releases sometime in the near future. There
are also a few navigation keys available.
* Will now save text files with a creator of 'pErF' and also
launch if one of these files is double clicked. Will also
launch off a Midi file with the 'pErF' creator.
Regards,
Philip
Philip Aker
Composer, Pianist, Finale Plugins
Suite 13
1405 West 11 Avenue
Vancouver BC
Canada V6H 1K9
philip@vcn.bc.ca
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From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
To: Richard Dobson
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: troy's rant
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>
I
just
wonder
whether
Barry
Vercoe
http://mitpress.mit.edu/e-books/csound/fpage/pub/csbook/contents/foreword.html
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:19:01 +0100 (ROM )
From: Nicola Bernardini
To: Richard Dobson
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: troy's rant
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On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Richard Dobson wrote:
> The impression I got from the way your post reads is that
> csound-unix-dev is the ~only~ place where ~the~ 'coding action' is. I
> think the double negative has a lot to do with that - it can so easily
> read as a put-down, even though that wasn't your intention.
>
> While developments on the Mac version and on the various Windows
> versions are reported to this list in detail (with frequent discussions
> at C-code level), somehow the csound-unix-dev list has given the
> impression of being somewhat aloof, as if to say 'hey, ~we~ are the real
> programmers here'. On the other hand, I am very conscious of the
> remarkable work that has been done for Csound on the PC and Mac
> platforms, over the last few years, familiar to everyone on this list,
[snip - etc etc, sorry, trying not to carry on too long]
Sorry to continue on this, but since I'm (we're) being accused of being
somewhat aloof, I'd (we'd) like to show that this is not the case. Dear
Richard, all you talk about are impressions - and I am sorry about that,
probably our e-mail behaviour or something else must give this impression.
I'd gladly go into facts and details but I'm really convinced that *this*
list (i.e. the csound one) should be used for other purposes (which it serves
eminently). Let me ask you and any other willing to follow on this thread:
1) is there any particular problem in being or not being a C (C++,perl,lisp
whatever) programmer? I really cannot understand this one! We're talking
as if programmers are the ones who've got balls here (sorry to all
the feminine gender on this list) - I'm sorry for the programmers, but
I feel exactely the opposite: I've got balls when I compose :) (sorry,
I know this is indecent but us italians tend to be very vulgar...)
2) the csound-unix-dev list receives all the (boring) messages concerning
CVS check-ins and updates, so that all the people on that list knows
exactely when that happens. Would you like me to re-direct that bull
over to this list?
3) the csound-unix-dev list discusses very *very* specific csound-to-linux
problems; anything that is less than very *very* specific gets re-directed
to this list too; do you think it would be right to actually add these
messages to this (csound) list? We can arrange that if that is the problem
4) one of the problems I (we) intended to solve was the utter unreadability
of the sources because of ifdefs by writing linux-specific code
in other files which get included during the configuration process;
just as it is already being done for the graphics part of csound - we're
just extending the concept to whatever is architecture-dependent; and
I'm sorry to throw one more bit into the discussion, but I wish that
was made by everybody else here by design: we could have a number of
common files which relate to a number of other machine-dependent files
which live on specific directories (win9x, linux, SGI, etc.) and IMHO that
would increase readability AND portability
5) *NO OPCODE* that was'nt existing before, nor any general purpose code,
has been added to the unofficial linux distribution - and if/when someone
of us will have some new code, *this* is the list where it will be
submitted (and of course, it will be available in the unofficial
distribution *too*) - you see, we're pretty boring people... On another
side of things - yes, it's true I've been much more cautious about
removing existing opcode names, so the unofficial distribution could
effectively (perhaps :) run old orchestras
6) It's already the third or fourth message in which I ask: what else is
wanted? that we put our distribution on the bath server so there's
no 'hassle, hassle, hassle'? (I thought the internet was a solution but
I now see that it is a problem for some of us); that we still rename it
something else as we have already done when somebody (can't remember who)
asked? (please suggest a name though, I'm running out); that we incorporate
our sources into the canonical distribution? All of this is absolutely
*FINE* with me and I suppose with all of us - just ask.
On the whole, since when all of this bickering started some months ago I
just considered the fact that it looks very much like growing pains to me:
1) the various OSes have grown considerably in complexity and each one
requires a lot of dedication to get the most out of it
2) while absolutely retaining the inter-operability of orcs and sco, it
is important that all machine-dependent configuration and features are
exploited to their fullest potential; contrary to what you're thinking,
I constantly *look* at the Win95 canonical version and I find it *much*
better than what we're using under linux. I'd like to have the same things
you have (low RT latency, sliders etc.) under linux too and all my (our)
work has been directed to this objective. Yes, true: I feel that the people
following the unofficial distribution is (somewhat) equipped to do exactely
this - if I had found anything better than doing it myself, I can assure
that I would go *without any doubt* into that direction. I don't get
off in the least when I program (and unfortunately I often have to do
it to pay the bills).
3) while I find it excellent that jpff keeps track of all changes in the main
core of csound, I pity him for trying to follow more than one specific
hardware platform. The times of the good old Atari are over, and there's
a lot more to porting than merely compiling the application (unfortunately).
The tools available on each platform require considerable time and
dedication to study, so one should consider what to spend her/his time
in when doing these chores. As for what concerns myself I don't intend
*in the least* to deal with other platforms not because I look down
at them but because: a) I don't use them, b) I don't have them, c) I
don't even know them. And if I could drop handling linux issues and
go fishing, that would be even better :)
The time I have to devote to this argument is definitely running out. I
hope this clarifies the whole thing. Sorry again for being vulgar, consider
the fact that english is not my mother tongue and I don't have all the
means of expression you have.
ciao
Nicola
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 12:55:44 GMT
From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: help file (windows)
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Message written at 19 Jan 1999 11:59:30 +0000
I have added re's 3.50 help file to the csound_win.zip file, as well
as moving the file into newest directly.
==John
Thanks re.
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 12:54:24 GMT
From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: loscil3/loscil difference apart from interpolation scheme ?
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Message written at 18 Jan 1999 22:15:59 +0000
--- Copy of mail to huber@iamexwi.unibe.ch ---
There is not supposed to be any difference. I copied the loscil code
and edited it to get loscil3 so I am a little surprised if there is
any substantial difference
==John ffitch
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 12:55:28 GMT
From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Cubic interpolation
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Message written at 19 Jan 1999 10:54:43 +0000
--- Copy of mail to kaeru@flash.net ---
pete wrote:
> is it not possible to add another optional argument to oscili that
> will define the order of interpolation, with a default being 1? i dont know
> if the math supports this, but it is an idea.
The maths could do it but I have a couple of problems with thsi idea.
First it is rather a lot of code, unless I precompute the formulae
upto some limit -- otherwise one woudl be solving linear equations as
part of the init. Secondly I have been convinced that only odd orders
make sense as that gives some symmetry. I have been pleased with the
cubic; I did compare a 32-entry table and oscil3 against a computed
sine way and the errors were extremely small. As it is cubic is too
slow (it really needs a power-of-2 plus 2 guards, rather than 1 as at
present, if it is to regain some of that).
I am aware that teh coding in table3 is not of the highest order, and
could be optimised.
==John ffitch
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From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: oscil3
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Message written at 19 Jan 1999 07:38:19 +0000
In the k-rate output version I had a bug which meant that I read the
wrong part of the table. Could that be a cause for the oddities?
==John ffitch
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 12:55:02 GMT
From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: C-style comments in orchestra and score
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Message written at 19 Jan 1999 10:39:49 +0000
Thanks to re pointing me at the right places I now have C-style
comments, that is /* .... */ working in both orchestra and score. i
think I also get the line number correct(!). It certainly does re's
test orchestra and score.
==John ffitch |