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I am away from Bath until about 17 April 1997.
I have only intermittent e-mail contact, but I will
get to it eventually
==John ff
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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 08:36:13 -0500
From: Jean Piche
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To: Gabriel Maldonado
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Subject: Re: Realtime MIDI Csound: New midi OUT opcodes
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> I think it is extremely restrictive to stop at the traditional concept
> of "note" when making computer music. I agree with Mike when he says
> csound's strength is in the orchestra, not the score. In fact csound
> orchestra can generate itself a flow of events and notes starting from a
> single score opcode. This flow can be gradually modified in realtime by
> means of gestual input devices. It can bring toward new concepts of
> making and composing music. Granular synthesis, in which macro and micro
> structure levels can be scrambled, is an example of that. So Csound can
> be a powerful control language too. A commercial sequencer is hugely far
> from Csound elaboration capabilities.
Gabriel,
Compared to a myriad of other midi score processors/generators, Csound
is an extremely poor choice. Use Max, or better still, Common Music. You
already have real-time control input to Csound via console-driven events
(-L). Use it. THere are dozens of different ways to do granular
synthesis in Csound as it is. As a control language, Csound is very
terse and weak compared to just about anything else. You'd be better off
writing something new in another language (tcl, perl, C, lisp, anything)
to replicate the (simple) table referencing capabilities of csound and
moving on from there to more interesting things...
Best.
--
________________________________________________________
Jean Piche
Universite de Montreal
http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~pichej
http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/Org/CompoElectro/CEC/
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From: Michael Pelz-Sherman
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 94 11:39:39 -0600
To: Jean Piche
Subject: Re: Realtime MIDI Csound: New midi OUT opcodes
Cc: Gabriel Maldonado ,
csound
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Jean, you wrote:
> Compared to a myriad of other midi score
> processors/generators, Csound is an extremely poor choice. Use
> Max, or better still, Common Music. You already have real-time
> control input to Csound via console-driven events (-L). Use
> it. THere are dozens of different ways to do granular
> synthesis in Csound as it is. As a control language, Csound
> is very terse and weak compared to just about anything else.
> You'd be better off writing something new in another language
> (tcl, perl, C, lisp, anything) to replicate the (simple) table
> referencing capabilities of csound and moving on from there to
> more interesting things...
I see this as a matter of using the right tool for the job; in other words, the approach you take depends on the kind
of music-making you're doing. I do agree, though, that Csound's strength is as a highly configurable tone generator,
not as a control language for music. For creating "static" scores, CSound's score language is (on its own) WAY too
cumbersome and lacks most of the basic musical control primitives. Granted, one *could* spend a lot of time building
up a library of score-generating tools in some other language, but why bother when there are so many superior tools
already available? Again, if you're just arranging static, sequential events, almost any decent commercial MIDI
sequencer would do just fine, given that we already have midi2csound. Back in 92, I was experimenting with creating
scores in a MIDI sequencer & exporting them to Csound for "rendering". I never did complete an entire piece this way,
but it seemed like a very promising approach.
However, if you want to do things like algorithmic composition or real-time interactive pieces, you'll hit the wall
quickly with commercial MIDI sequencers.
On the other hand, Max has it's own set of limitations, having mainly to do with its use of graphical control flow
representation. It also has a lot of timing overhead with all those graphics. If you want to get into heavy-duty
real-time stuff, FORTH (or HMSL) is probably better. Don't know much about Common Music, so I can't comment here.
On a related note, I haven't yet succeeded in getting realtime CSound working, but I did read somewhere in the
release notes that there were some pretty major timing problems associated with using MIDI for real-time control of
CSound orchestras. Has anybody managed to get this working with satisfactory real-time response using reasonably
complex instruments (say, on the order of a DX7)?
- Michael
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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 21:49:55 +0100
From: Gabriel Maldonado
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To: Jean Piche
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Subject: Re: Realtime MIDI Csound: New midi OUT opcodes
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Dear Jean,
you wrote:
> Gabriel,
>
> Compared to a myriad of other midi score processors/generators, Csound
> is an extremely poor choice. Use Max, or better still, Common Music. You
> already have real-time control input to Csound via console-driven events
> (-L). Use it. THere are dozens of different ways to do granular
> synthesis in Csound as it is. As a control language, Csound is very
> terse and weak compared to just about anything else. You'd be better off
> writing something new in another language (tcl, perl, C, lisp, anything)
> to replicate the (simple) table referencing capabilities of csound and
> moving on from there to more interesting things...
Are Max and Common Music avalaible for win'95? Are these programs free?
Do these programs manage midi in-out events and audio processing in
realtime?
Csound is a low level language. So its flow control is very terse. But I
think it is not weak. I like low and high level scrambling and for me
Csound, although far from being perfect, is a good tool. Maybe it is a
personal point of view, but I think high level and graphical tools may
influence compositive thought of a person (such as MIDI keyboards that
conditionate musical taste of their owners) with the programmer's
thought.
Writing a complete new program that can manage dimamic event allocation,
score and realtime IN and OUT is more time consuming than adding some
UGs to Csound for me.
I don't want influence anybody with my version of Csound; if someone
like it, he can use it, else simply can ignore my new MIDI UGs.
P.S.
it is not my intention to spark off a flame about MIDI and control
capabilities of Csound. I only asked some tecnical opinion about
including these UGs in the standard version or making a new version. Now
I think I will make a unique version with audio OUT which can be
optionally disabled, if required.
P.S. #2
Can you help me to use the realtime console-driven events (-L flag)? I
attempted to use it but I can't hear any sound. What is the syntax of
console line events? I used the standard Csound .sco syntax, but with no
results.
Best regards
--
Gabriel Maldonado
mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it
http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:48:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Micheal Allen Thompson
To: Gabriel Maldonado
Cc: Jean Piche ,
Csound Mailing List
Subject: Re: Realtime MIDI Csound: New midi OUT opcodes
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Well, there was the free CMU toolkit for Macintosh and unix. I think
people still use it but I dont know the version or whatever. It is
completely open ended and you could code until you cant code anymore all
of your home grown midi processes. On the PC the only thing that I know
of are small algo type programs in shareware form. I would think that
you would do better to code your own midi app instead of dealing with
csound and real-time midi control. I dont know.... maybe take the midi
sources from csound and roll your own app from them.... not my idea of
fun but..... Common music has all of this already and runs on many
platforms....
Michael
On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, Gabriel Maldonado wrote:
> Dear Jean,
> you wrote:
>
> > Gabriel,
> >
> > Compared to a myriad of other midi score processors/generators, Csound
> > is an extremely poor choice. Use Max, or better still, Common Music. You
> > already have real-time control input to Csound via console-driven events
> > (-L). Use it. THere are dozens of different ways to do granular
> > synthesis in Csound as it is. As a control language, Csound is very
> > terse and weak compared to just about anything else. You'd be better off
> > writing something new in another language (tcl, perl, C, lisp, anything)
> > to replicate the (simple) table referencing capabilities of csound and
> > moving on from there to more interesting things...
>
> Are Max and Common Music avalaible for win'95? Are these programs free?
> Do these programs manage midi in-out events and audio processing in
> realtime?
> Csound is a low level language. So its flow control is very terse. But I
> think it is not weak. I like low and high level scrambling and for me
> Csound, although far from being perfect, is a good tool. Maybe it is a
> personal point of view, but I think high level and graphical tools may
> influence compositive thought of a person (such as MIDI keyboards that
> conditionate musical taste of their owners) with the programmer's
> thought.
> Writing a complete new program that can manage dimamic event allocation,
> score and realtime IN and OUT is more time consuming than adding some
> UGs to Csound for me.
> I don't want influence anybody with my version of Csound; if someone
> like it, he can use it, else simply can ignore my new MIDI UGs.
>
> P.S.
> it is not my intention to spark off a flame about MIDI and control
> capabilities of Csound. I only asked some tecnical opinion about
> including these UGs in the standard version or making a new version. Now
> I think I will make a unique version with audio OUT which can be
> optionally disabled, if required.
>
> P.S. #2
> Can you help me to use the realtime console-driven events (-L flag)? I
> attempted to use it but I can't hear any sound. What is the syntax of
> console line events? I used the standard Csound .sco syntax, but with no
> results.
>
> Best regards
> --
> Gabriel Maldonado
>
> mailto:g.maldonado@agora.stm.it
> http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm
>
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Cc: csound
Subject: Re: Realtime MIDI /HMSL
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Michael Pelz-Sherman wrote:
> If you want to get into heavy-duty
> real-time stuff, FORTH (or HMSL) is probably better.
I have been exposed to FORTH already and at some point it has been
pointed out that there is a music programming environment (HMSL). At
first I had a hard time getting my hands on it. Finally I ftped it
from ella.mills.edu. My question is, is there any kind of
documentation available concerning any classes that I should be aware
of and syntax that is already implemented in the program. Or does it
rely on my FORTH programming chops entirely???
Any helpful advice?
Thanks in advance.
Michal S.
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From: Michael Pelz-Sherman
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 94 20:47:00 -0600
To: andrzej@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Realtime MIDI /HMSL
Cc: csound
Reply-To: mps@is.com
References: <33463993.1C39@agora.stm.it> <3346554D.794B@ere.umontreal.ca> <9404051739.AA00813@zappa.is.com> <3346C040.4287@geocities.com>
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> is there any kind of documentation available concerning any (HMSL)
> classes that I should be aware of and syntax that is already
> implemented in the program. Or does it rely on my FORTH
> programming chops entirely???
HMSL has an extensive class library and syntax of its own, built on top of an extensible FORTH runtime environment.
I picked up a copy of HMSL from Frog Peak several years ago, and at that time it came with an extensive users manual.
Assuming Frog Peak is still selling HMSL, I'd strongly advise picking up a copy.
The last address I have for Frog Peak is Box 1052, Lebanon NH 03766. Anyone know if this is still accurate?
BTW, there is an HMSL mailing list at hmsl@shoko.calarts.edu.
- Michael
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Subject: Re: Realtime MIDI Csound: New midi OUT opcodes
To: Csound mailing list
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:45:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Eli Brandt
In-Reply-To: from "Micheal Allen Thompson" at Apr 5, 97 02:48:49 pm
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Micheal Allen Thompson wrote:
> Well, there was the free CMU toolkit for Macintosh and unix.
Versions for DOS, Mac, Amiga, and Irix -- dunno about other Unix dialects.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/music/web/music.software.html
--
Eli Brandt
eli+@cs.cmu.edu
|