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Re: gain, balance

Date1998-08-21 15:53
FromErik Spjut
SubjectRe: gain, balance
Could you repeat the question? Do you want to take an existing soundfile
and set the peak value to 90% of 32767? Do you want to take an existing
soundfile and scale it to 90% of its present amplitude? Are you generating
a sound that you want to envelope-track to an existing soundfile but at 90%
of the volume? Could you tell us exactly what it is that you're trying to
do?

The first two don't require gain or balance. The last one does.

At 10:40 AM -0500 8/21/98, tolve wrote:
>not exactly a sexy topic here. but please speak slowly and clearly.
>
>both gain and balance require a control signal. but is there a way to
>normalize to 90% without a control signal? or do i input a dummy file that
>goes nowhere using soundin. that is to say, a file known to be normalized
>to 90% -just to use for comparison?
>
>tolve


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik Spjut (pronounce ju as long u or yew) - Associate Professor of Engineering
and  Associate Director for Engineering Computing,  Center for Design Education
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711-5990  USA
Erik_Spjut@hmc.edu      Ph & Voice mail (909) 607-3890      Fax (909) 621-8967
Date1998-08-21 16:40
Fromtolve
Subjectgain, balance
not exactly a sexy topic here. but please speak slowly and clearly.

both gain and balance require a control signal. but is there a way to
normalize to 90% without a control signal? or do i input a dummy file that
goes nowhere using soundin. that is to say, a file known to be normalized
to 90% -just to use for comparison?

tolve




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From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject:  Re: tone in winsound 3.484
To: luisjure@adinet.com.uy, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Message written at 20 Aug 1998 20:44:58 -0400
--- Copy of mail to gelida@intercom.es ---

Can you tell me about the "some problems with the Winsound windows
interface..."?  I am aware of the tone/port/reson problems, and have
some fixes for some of them.
==John ffitch


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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:53:59 -0700
From: Erik Spjut 
Subject: Re: gain, balance
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Could you repeat the question? Do you want to take an existing soundfile
and set the peak value to 90% of 32767? Do you want to take an existing
soundfile and scale it to 90% of its present amplitude? Are you generating
a sound that you want to envelope-track to an existing soundfile but at 90%
of the volume? Could you tell us exactly what it is that you're trying to
do?

The first two don't require gain or balance. The last one does.

At 10:40 AM -0500 8/21/98, tolve wrote:
>not exactly a sexy topic here. but please speak slowly and clearly.
>
>both gain and balance require a control signal. but is there a way to
>normalize to 90% without a control signal? or do i input a dummy file that
>goes nowhere using soundin. that is to say, a file known to be normalized
>to 90% -just to use for comparison?
>
>tolve


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik Spjut (pronounce ju as long u or yew) - Associate Professor of Engineering
and  Associate Director for Engineering Computing,  Center for Design Education
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711-5990  USA
Erik_Spjut@hmc.edu      Ph & Voice mail (909) 607-3890      Fax (909) 621-8967




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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:52:37 -0500
To: Erik Spjut , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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From: tolve 
Subject: Re: gain, balance
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generating a single sound using many FOF's without the use of any existing
soundfiles. would like the sound i generate to be automatically scaled to
90% of 32767 at the end of the process regardless of the amplitude settings
for the individual FOF's.

seems like this would be a universally useful tool. figure there must be a
simple and elegant way to scale without using a control signal (any
existing soundfile). no?

tolve

>Could you repeat the question? Do you want to take an existing soundfile
>and set the peak value to 90% of 32767? Do you want to take an existing
>soundfile and scale it to 90% of its present amplitude? Are you generating
>a sound that you want to envelope-track to an existing soundfile but at 90%
>of the volume? Could you tell us exactly what it is that you're trying to
>do?
>
>The first two don't require gain or balance. The last one does.
>
>At 10:40 AM -0500 8/21/98, tolve wrote:
>>not exactly a sexy topic here. but please speak slowly and clearly.
>>
>>both gain and balance require a control signal. but is there a way to
>>normalize to 90% without a control signal? or do i input a dummy file that
>>goes nowhere using soundin. that is to say, a file known to be normalized
>>to 90% -just to use for comparison?
>>
>>tolve
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Erik Spjut (pronounce ju as long u or yew) - Associate Professor of
>Engineering
>and  Associate Director for Engineering Computing,  Center for Design
>Education
>Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711-5990  USA
>Erik_Spjut@hmc.edu      Ph & Voice mail (909) 607-3890      Fax (909) 621-8967





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From: Richard Dobson 
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To: tolve 
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Subject: Re: gain, balance
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Surely this is fundamentally a post-processing issue. 'Normalization', after
all, is usually defined as rescaling of the file as a whole, so that the
existing peak sample value (which might of course be right at the end of the
file) is scaled to just below maximum (or, arguably better, -3dB, which is 70%,
not 90%). So you need a simple 'normalization instrument' taking a single
amplitude pfield, which is the maxamp as reported by Csound for the synthesis
pass.

Balance, rms, etc, on the other hand, are designed to do dynamic rescaling (eg
of the results of filtering), block by block. With balance, especially,
modulation side effects have been noted. A post-processing normalization pass
will have no such problems.

One of these days, Csound will be so reentrant that it will become quite usual
to manage this sort of rescaling within a single execution - Csound will
'rewind' at the end of the synthesis pass, reopen the file and do the rescaling.

Richard Dobson


tolve wrote:
> 
> generating a single sound using many FOF's without the use of any existing
> soundfiles. would like the sound i generate to be automatically scaled to
> 90% of 32767 at the end of the process regardless of the amplitude settings
> for the individual FOF's.
> 
> seems like this would be a universally useful tool. figure there must be a
> simple and elegant way to scale without using a control signal (any
> existing soundfile). no?
> 
> tolve
> 
> >Could you repeat the question? Do you want to take an existing soundfile
> >and set the peak value to 90% of 32767? Do you want to take an existing
> >soundfile and scale it to 90% of its present amplitude? Are you generating
> >a sound that you want to envelope-track to an existing soundfile but at 90%
> >of the volume? Could you tell us exactly what it is that you're trying to
> >do?
> >
> >The first two don't require gain or balance. The last one does.
> >
> >At 10:40 AM -0500 8/21/98, tolve wrote:
> >>not exactly a sexy topic here. but please speak slowly and clearly.
> >>
> >>both gain and balance require a control signal. but is there a way to
> >>normalize to 90% without a control signal? or do i input a dummy file that
> >>goes nowhere using soundin. that is to say, a file known to be normalized
> >>to 90% -just to use for comparison?
> >>
> >>tolve
> >
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Erik Spjut (pronounce ju as long u or yew) - Associate Professor of
> >Engineering
> >and  Associate Director for Engineering Computing,  Center for Design
> >Education
> >Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711-5990  USA
> >Erik_Spjut@hmc.edu      Ph & Voice mail (909) 607-3890      Fax (909) 621-8967


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The PowerPC version lets you write the file in floats and then automatically
post-normalize to 16 bits.  We assume post-normallization to 100%, but I don't
think it would be too hard to make this settable.
-- 
Mike Berry
mikeb@nmol.com
http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb




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This would be the non-Analog Devices version.

Thank you,
Stuart Felenstein
stuartf@dimensional.com



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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:41:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Matt J. Ingalls" 
Reply-To: "Matt J. Ingalls" 
To: Mike Berry 
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: gain, balance
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i mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, with no response --
if people would like Dave's feature Mike talks about below,
i could "port" it to be in canonical sources..
 (just needs a few mac->unix file things
and printf instead of progress dialog..)

would just be an option flag,
-matt



On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Mike Berry wrote:

> The PowerPC version lets you write the file in floats and then automatically
> post-normalize to 16 bits.  We assume post-normallization to 100%, but I don't
> think it would be too hard to make this settable.
> -- 
> Mike Berry
> mikeb@nmol.com
> http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb
> 
> 
> 



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From: "B. Battey" 
To: "Matt J. Ingalls" 
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: gain, balance
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Given the time that I've expended just this evening fighting the
amplitude-containment battle via trial and error on a slow pvoc-based
instrument, I think such a feature would be very worthwhile. 

-=Bret

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Matt J. Ingalls wrote:

> 
> i mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, with no response --
> if people would like Dave's feature Mike talks about below,
> i could "port" it to be in canonical sources..
>  (just needs a few mac->unix file things
> and printf instead of progress dialog..)
> 
> would just be an option flag,
> -matt
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Mike Berry wrote:
> 
> > The PowerPC version lets you write the file in floats and then automatically
> > post-normalize to 16 bits.  We assume post-normallization to 100%, but I don't
> > think it would be too hard to make this settable.
> > -- 
> > Mike Berry
> > mikeb@nmol.com
> > http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 



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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:18:17 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Nicola Bernardini 
To: Csound mailing list 
Subject: option flag (was Re: gain, balance)
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On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Matt J. Ingalls wrote:

[snip]
> i mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, with no response --
> if people would like Dave's feature Mike talks about below,
> i could "port" it to be in canonical sources..

it could be a very nice idea...

[snip]
> would just be an option flag,

speaking of which, in 3.484 some funny things happened: a -Q option appeared
in the Mac/Metrowerks version and a -Q option disappeared in the linux/unix
version (I put that back in the linux sources distributed by me and Dave
Phillips). The two -Q options bear no relation to each other, so we're ending
up having incompatible command lines. Is there a good reason for this?
If name space pollution is the problem, we could adopt the gnu getopt package
that allows long names and is free (I would think it would compile on
all platforms).

Nicola

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
 
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture.  Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.



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To: Stuart Felenstein 
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Anyone know the status of Cecilia for Win95?
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:38:39 GMT
Message-ID: <35de9f49.2603553@pop.btx.dtag.de>
References: <35DE036F.BD7CE43E@dimensional.com>
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On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:31:59 -0500, you wrote:
as far as i know (the cecilia homepage said) there is no win95 version..
only mac,linux,irix

anything new

>This would be the non-Analog Devices version.
>
>Thank you,
>Stuart Felenstein
>stuartf@dimensional.com

Und Tsch=FCss
Jens Reimer

Email:
jens.reimer@t-online.de
Date1998-08-21 23:52
Fromtolve
SubjectRe: gain, balance
generating a single sound using many FOF's without the use of any existing
soundfiles. would like the sound i generate to be automatically scaled to
90% of 32767 at the end of the process regardless of the amplitude settings
for the individual FOF's.

seems like this would be a universally useful tool. figure there must be a
simple and elegant way to scale without using a control signal (any
existing soundfile). no?

tolve

>Could you repeat the question? Do you want to take an existing soundfile
>and set the peak value to 90% of 32767? Do you want to take an existing
>soundfile and scale it to 90% of its present amplitude? Are you generating
>a sound that you want to envelope-track to an existing soundfile but at 90%
>of the volume? Could you tell us exactly what it is that you're trying to
>do?
>
>The first two don't require gain or balance. The last one does.
>
>At 10:40 AM -0500 8/21/98, tolve wrote:
>>not exactly a sexy topic here. but please speak slowly and clearly.
>>
>>both gain and balance require a control signal. but is there a way to
>>normalize to 90% without a control signal? or do i input a dummy file that
>>goes nowhere using soundin. that is to say, a file known to be normalized
>>to 90% -just to use for comparison?
>>
>>tolve
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Erik Spjut (pronounce ju as long u or yew) - Associate Professor of
>Engineering
>and  Associate Director for Engineering Computing,  Center for Design
>Education
>Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711-5990  USA
>Erik_Spjut@hmc.edu      Ph & Voice mail (909) 607-3890      Fax (909) 621-8967
Date1998-08-22 16:29
FromErik Spjut
SubjectRe: gain, balance
Normalization is inherently a two-pass process. The first pass is to
calculate the maximum value generated in the sound file creation. For all
but trivial examples there is no a priori (ahead of time) method to
calculate the maximum value which is going to be generated. The second pass
then scales all of the sound samples by some chosen fraction of the maximum.

You can get around this limitation somewhat if you know exactly what
envelope your sound should have. You can then use your given envelope and
the gain ugen to normalize your sound. The limitation is that gain works on
the RMS of the signal and not on the peak value. Experimentation would
still be required to get an approximate relationship between RMS and peak.
The relationship would always vary from sound source to sound source.

Our best hope is some variant of the Mills PPC float->16-bit normalized,
but that requires source code modification.

Tolve, if my explanation isn't in simple enough English, let me know. I'm
always willing to try again (even in halting Swedish if you'd like).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik Spjut (pronounce ju as long u or yew) - Associate Professor of Engineering
and  Associate Director for Engineering Computing,  Center for Design Education
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711-5990  USA
Erik_Spjut@hmc.edu      Ph & Voice mail (909) 607-3890      Fax (909) 621-8967




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To: "Matt J. Ingalls" , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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From: tolve 
Subject: Re: gain, balance
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hmm yes you did, and i didn't. but i am now. please sir can we have this
feature? complete with option to specify percentage? it would be most
appreciated!

tolve

>i mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, with no response --
>if people would like Dave's feature Mike talks about below,
>i could "port" it to be in canonical sources..
> (just needs a few mac->unix file things
>and printf instead of progress dialog..)
>
>would just be an option flag,
>-matt
>
>
>
>On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Mike Berry wrote:
>
>> The PowerPC version lets you write the file in floats and then automatically
>> post-normalize to 16 bits.  We assume post-normallization to 100%, but I
>>don't
>> think it would be too hard to make this settable.
>> --
>> Mike Berry
>> mikeb@nmol.com
>> http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb
>>
>>
>>





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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:03:05 -0500
To: "B. Battey" , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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From: tolve 
Subject: Re: gain, balance
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have been resorting to soundhack myself.

ftp://music.calarts.edu/pub/SoundHack/


tolve


>Given the time that I've expended just this evening fighting the

>amplitude-containment battle via trial and error on a slow pvoc-based

>instrument, I think such a feature would be very worthwhile. 

>

>-=Bret

>

>On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Matt J. Ingalls wrote:

>

>> 

>> i mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, with no response --

>> if people would like Dave's feature Mike talks about below,

>> i could "port" it to be in canonical sources..

>>  (just needs a few mac->unix file things

>> and printf instead of progress dialog..)

>> 

>> would just be an option flag,

>> -matt

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Mike Berry wrote:

>> 

>> > The PowerPC version lets you write the file in floats and then
automatically

>> > post-normalize to 16 bits.  We assume post-normallization to 100%,
but I don't

>> > think it would be too hard to make this settable.

>> > -- 

>> > Mike Berry

>> > mikeb@nmol.com

>> > http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb

>> > 

>> > 

>> > 

>> 

>> 






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From: "Matt J. Ingalls" 
To: tolve 
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: gain, balance
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i might add that the AIFF-C is supported on all platforms now..
actually, its part of AIFF, but when you select 32-bit floats,
AIFF-C is created, which is basically AIFF file with an extra
info containing max-amp value.

i will take a look into the rescale code today..
(the flag will be -e)


-matt






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From: "Matt J. Ingalls" 
Reply-To: "Matt J. Ingalls" 
To: Nicola Bernardini 
cc: Csound mailing list 
Subject: Re: option flag (was Re: gain, balance)
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there's gonna have to be some flags that are platform-specific.
maybe if we agree on what they are
i've had to change mac-specific flags a handful of times to accomodate
new ones.  but now looks like all platforms are #ifdef-d now
(i.e. MAC) so it should be easier..
(could also consolidate flags into one -- like sample-size and
(headers, etc..)

i dont know why the linux flag dissappeared...

-matt

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Nicola Bernardini wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Matt J. Ingalls wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> > i mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, with no response --
> > if people would like Dave's feature Mike talks about below,
> > i could "port" it to be in canonical sources..
> 
> it could be a very nice idea...
> 
> [snip]
> > would just be an option flag,
> 
> speaking of which, in 3.484 some funny things happened: a -Q option appeared
> in the Mac/Metrowerks version and a -Q option disappeared in the linux/unix
> version (I put that back in the linux sources distributed by me and Dave
> Phillips). The two -Q options bear no relation to each other, so we're ending
> up having incompatible command lines. Is there a good reason for this?
> If name space pollution is the problem, we could adopt the gnu getopt package
> that allows long names and is free (I would think it would compile on
> all platforms).
> 
> Nicola
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Nicola Bernardini
> E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
>  
> Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
> the picture.  Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
> with pictures.
> 
> 



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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:07:30 +0100
From: Jamie Bullock 
Subject: Granule documentation question
To: Csound List 
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I'm sure this is a really obvious question and I'm going to kick myself when
I find the answer, but where do the values for ipitch1-4 come from in the
example provided with the 'granule' documentation? The helpfile I have gives
1.42 for a
fifth up and .29 for a 7th down.
Surely it should be around 1.5 for a fifth up (equal tempered would be about
1.49). 1.42 gives roughly a diminished fifth (I think my ears confirm
this!). .29 as a value for a 7th down is even more puzzling, the
documentation implies that .9 would give an octave down (surely .5 is an
octave down), and what kind of seventh, major or minor?

Yours confusedly,

JamieB




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From: David Schuyeteneer 
To: Csound List 
Subject: [??] Japanese Noise site 
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:55:20 +0200
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I checked for records of AUBE and MERZBOW, and indeed, they are just
*great*.....I bought
"Substructural Penetration" (Aube) and "Space Metalizer" (Merzbow).....Is
there
any www site dedicated to this Japanese Noise ???? 



David.