| on Wednesday, 25 November 1998 17:40, Sean Costello wrote:
>Has anyone here implemented a phaser in Csound? By phaser, I mean a
>device that uses several allpass filters in series, with sweepable
>coefficients, and variable feedback around the allpass chain.
[snip]
>If anyone has done this before, or has any pointers, please let me know.
>I'd love to see your .orc files, or even C code that implements this.
Sorry, not in csound, but...
This was was discussed at some length on the music-dsp list some months ago,
you may want to check the archives. As a result of these discussions I
implemented a phaser in C++, a prototype of which is available from the
music-dsp download page:
http://shoko.calarts.edu/~glmrboy/musicdsp/sourcecode/phaser.cpp
The thing that stumped me was that the allpass filters in a phaser are
sub-sample delay type allpasses (like you use to tune a karplus-strong alg),
not the oversampled reverberator types (I think) found in the csound allpass
unit (or similar implementations such as the cmix one I was working off).
If someone wants to adapt this code into a csound UG that's OK by me, just
put the original comments in the source somewhere.
and of course, the shameless plug:
If you want to hear it (and you have access to a window$ box) there is an
optimised version in the latest (0.7b5) version of AudioMulch
(www.audiomulch.com), it's shareware.
Ross.
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From: Ross Bencina
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Subject: Re: hello, and questions
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:11:48 +1030
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Paul Winkler writes:
>--Also, the difference reported was about 25%, which could quite
>possibly be accounted for by the different compilers used for the two
>Csound versions. This is pure speculation on my part.
I would have thought the mwerks compiler would be faster than gnu (also pure
speculation)...
I don't know what multitasking code is currently in the mac build... but a
long time ago when I built the CsoundRB binaries... I used a method that
called GetNextEvent() or similar every processing loop (or atleast
sometimes) to allow background processing. I don't know if this method is
being used at the moment - but if it is I could believe that this would
cause a 25% performance degredation.
Ross.
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From: Ross Bencina
To: Josep M Comajuncosas , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Subject: Re: GENDY???
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Josep M Comajuncosas wrote:
>This is an interesting thread... some people talk about the expressive
superiority
>of tonal music based on its "natural" basis.
13 tone scales that have more congruence with the harmonic series than 12
tone.
>Though difficult to prove, maybe we
>think something is natural just because we=B4ve been always used to it.
Mabe difficult to prove, but look at the backlash towards: stravinsky,
antiorp, etc.
>We as composers do require a socially "accepted" basis
>to make our music understandable (even by ourselves), this basis is alwa=
ys
>extended thancks to composers who deny the preexisting rules ...
Rules only exist in the minds of the pedagogy and [software synthesis]
language designers.
Ross.
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In-reply-to: <199811250341.EAA12891@mb05.swip.net> (message from rasmus ekman
on Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:48:10 +0100)
Subject: Re: Winhelp update
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I have moved the WinHelp_for_Csound3493.zip file to pub/dream/newest
until I can get to a PC and update the csound_win.zip
==John
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To: Josep M Comajuncosas
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Subject: Re: GENDY???
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#include
| some people talk about the expressive superiority
| of tonal music based on its "natural" basis.
People with a spleen for simplistic views of the world, yes. =
| Though difficult to prove, maybe we think something =
| is natural just because we=B4ve been always used to it.
Not much need to prove that, it's called "second nature".
One of its more common modern manifestations is that =
windows users think windows is the shit. Aka ignorance.
| We as composers do require a socially "accepted" basis
| to make our music understandable (even by ourselves), =
| this basis is always extended thancks to composers who =
| deny the preexisting rules ...
I guess if you'd poll enough people and average their idea
of music, you'd end up with the kind of stuff they have in
porn flics: mainly noodle, noodle, noddle, with a little
pepping-up towards the end, maybe. Beethoven, on the other
hand, always insisted that rules in art may always be
violated to satisfy higher rules, which appeals to me more
than the prospect of Taco Bell music.
-Tobias
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Date: 25 Nov 98 11:18:26 EST
From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
Subject: Re: beOS
To: g.maldonado@agora.stm.it
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk,
"Douglas I. Repetto"
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douglas (aka glimrboy) who is cc'd on this thread but not on csound list
could probably answer this better than me.
On PPC, the Be IDE is Metrowerks, which is for the most part is same
as Mac IDE.. (lathough i think now default compiler is now gnu..)
There's some sort of IDE (fairly new) on the Intel side but i havnet seen it.
Msfts "Visual" IDE is one of the most poorly designed programs i have ever
worked
in. I honestly believe it greatly contributed to my beginnings of RSI
(which led me to quitting my job -- didnt want to risk my clarinet playing)
Toolbars on every edge of the screen, leaving a tiny window for about 10 lines
of code
on the monitor i was given...drove me crazy - would rather just use makefiles...
you can be a "hobby" developer for free -- i dont know how much of the developer
release
stuff you get with that, since i am getting all mine through the school here -
but i need
to find out since im out of here in 2 weeks...
www.be.com
matt
--- Gabriel Maldonado wrote:
What about the C-compilers and high level languages?
There is a sort of visual basic in BeOS? Is the C IDE and symbol browser evolved
enough
(as MSVC)?
I'm very interested in BeOS, where can I get a copy for my intel computer in
Italy?
Happy BeOSing
Gab
--- end of quote ---
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Date: 25 Nov 98 11:27:22 EST
From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
Subject: Re: hello, and questions
To: rossb@audiomulch.com, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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not that im really interested in benchmarks, but does the 25% difference for
file rendering as well?
again, the problem with mac rt-sound (although seemed ok on a G3 i tried out
yesterday) is that its not done the most "proper"(low-level) way, and i have a
feeling the newer OSs/Compilers also have made additional need for more tweaking
-- but we really need to rewrite/replace all the real-time code... (well, Csound
itself probably needs a rewrite [SAOL??])
matt
--- "Ross Bencina" wrote:
called GetNextEvent() or similar every processing loop (or atleast
sometimes) to allow background processing.
--- end of quote ---
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From: Mike Berry
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Subject: Re: hello, and questions
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Ross Bencina wrote:
> I don't know what multitasking code is currently in the mac build... but a
> long time ago when I built the CsoundRB binaries... I used a method that
> called GetNextEvent() or similar every processing loop (or atleast
> sometimes) to allow background processing. I don't know if this method is
> being used at the moment - but if it is I could believe that this would
> cause a 25% performance degredation.
This is correct. In order to allow the transport control which allows
you to pause and listen to a partially rendered score, we had to allow
the MacOS some time to process events. This also means that the MacOS
has time to do lots of other things, which will depend upon your
specific setup, but may include checking to see if you inserted a
floppy, updating the blinking time clock on your menu bar, lighting that
annoying drive monitor light that Norton Utilities installed for you
without asking, etc.... So it will be slower than it would be without
any user interactivity. And how much slower will vary from machine to machine.
As I have mentioned before, the solution is to run inside an interrupt,
which would bring the latency way down and the speed up. But the csound
core is simply not written in such a way as to allow the Mac to run it
inside an interrupt, without major revisions.
--
Mike Berry
mikeb@nmol.com
http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb
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From: tolve
Subject: Quad & Discrete 5.1
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Warning: dull laborious, though real world problem ahead!
let's begin with the goal:
start with a discrete quad mix consisting of 4 individual (mono)
soundfiles (AIFF's) and enhance it by automatically creating a fifth
mono soundfile.
definition:
5.1 usually refers to a speaker set-up frequently used for stereo
surround sound (not the topic of this post). 3 speakers are positioned
in front, 2 in the rear, and the ".1" refers to a subwoofer which
handles the low low frequencies. for purposes here, let's forget the
subwoofer as an outboard crossover will handle that nicely. what i
refer to as the enhanced part is the extra speaker located at middle
front -quite useful in large venues to avoid the "hole in the middle"
sound effect and for more precise perception of position of sounds. ok
if you prefer to call this pentaud or something. just want to make it
clear that we're not adding another dimension.
challenge:
surprisingly enough, in this case to spotlight csound's superior
efficiency against commercial mixing aps including
USD20000+ digidesign protools system.
desired method:
pull 4 discrete tracks (mono soundfiles) into csound individually using
diskin. these would then be used to generate automatically the fifth
(center) track (mono soundfile).
Important: the positioning of the sounds and the manner in which they
pan should not be altered by the addition of this extra track
(speakers). the result would be, in the case of 5.1, five separate aiff
files.
to further clarify: the levels of the four discrete tracks would be
adjusted accordingly and the new fifth file would be created in such a
way as to maintain all positioning of sounds in the quad image as they
were in the original quad mix.
Incidentally, if anyone is feeling additionally ambitious, 7.1 adds to
the above additional enhancements: 2 speakers, one on each side midway
between the front and rear speakers (middle left and middle right). for
7.1, the result would be seven separate aiff files, again positioning
of the sounds and the way in which they travel should be the same as in
the original quad mix. and in a large hall, keep adding speakers till
your budget bursts!
ok. 5th file generating orc & sco anyone?
would also welcome, in a separate post, a mathematical response which i
will subsequently hope to one day understand.
and in case someone thinks this is best addressed with a new opcode,
don't blame me (smile).
tolve
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:16:57 -0500
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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From: tolve
Subject: Quad Mixing
Cc: "Vercoe, Scotty"
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have just spent half a day searching csound archives for Quad and related
issues. much on i/o cards, soundfile format and even possibilities for
opcodes but not a single post on working methods to create a quad image and
move sounds throughout the soundfield!
would appreciate if anyone out there working in quad will share the wisdom
of their mixing methods. (or even math involved in calculating relative
levels of a sound in 4 speakers necessary to place sound at a specific
point in the listening room.)
as an avowed program challenged csound heretic, i do all my mixing in
MOTU's Digital Performer. currently planning to output quad by simply
playing back five tracks (see my post on Discrete 5.1), which comprise my
mix, directly in Digital Performer through a MOTU 2408 into 5 mono amps,
each feeding a separate speaker. my music consists of 100's of individual
mono soundfiles sitting in, usually, about 8 tracks. nightmare waiting to
happen. hmm. maybe i should mix this down in csound. especially if i can
somehow harnass cecilia to plot the movement of sounds.
as a single sound travels through the quad field, the amplitude of that
particular sound in each of the speakers must change and therefore the
levels of it in each track. there has been some mention of the joys of
joysticking as well as other controllers. anyone using joysticks to mix?
-perhaps i could place each of my sounds in set containing 5 separate
tracks and calculate start and end points for volume (expressed as percent)
for each of the sounds and simply draw a straight (volume) line between
those points in DP; then combine all my various sets of 5 tracks into one
set. expect that the mix will then have to be touched up in the venue in
which it will be ultimately exhibited. should have it all wrapped up before
the next ice age. price of control. nevertheless...
quad mixing methods anyone?
tolve
Wed, 10 Jun 1998 Scotty Vercoe wrote:
>Hi,
>We had a great time at AES, but then how couldn't we, it was in
>Amsterdam! The response to our joystick demo and Cecilia was very good.
>I was happy to see a couple Csounders. Thanks for stopping by!
>
>As usual, we got some flack for only supporting Windows 95 (I don't like
>it any more than most of you). We would encourage anyone interested in
>supporting Extended Csound on other platforms. Although right now, we
>can't pay anyone to do any work, I can promise you a free card and as
>much support as we can give. Should a company come to us that is
>interested in selling cards for another platform, they would probably be
>interested in licensing the work that has been done so far instead of
>starting from scratch. Please contact me if anyone has any interest in
>this.
>
>Also, I hope to get more and more people cards as we are financially
>able to do so. If you especially anxious, send me a convincing note
>(please, no threats). It is truly in our best interest to get people
>all around the world using the system.
>
>I hope you're all having great summers!
>Scotty Vercoe
>Extended Csound Applications Consultant
>Analog Devices Software & Systems Technology Division
>Tel: (781) 461-3569 FAX: (781) 461-4291
>Support: Csound.support@analog.com
>Website: http://www.analog.com/
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:28:53 -0200
From: Ignacio de Campos
Subject: Problems with locsig...
To: Csound Mail-list
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Dear CSounders.
I've been having a few problems with
locsig opcode and I would like someone
could help me.
I created a very simple instrument
using locsig (and locsend). I run CSound
(version 3.491 for both Mac and PC) and
I can't notice any problem. A quad sound
is generated but the result is quite strange.
The channel 1 has a very high amplitude, the
second one has a very low amplitude and the
other channels have no amplitude.
I'm not an expert therefore it's possible
that my script is wrong.
Anyway I can't find it.
The files are here:
;releasenn.orc
sr=44100
kr=4410
ksmps=10
nchnls=4
ga1 init 0
ga2 init 0
ga3 init 0
ga4 init 0
instr 1
idist=p6
kshape linen p4,p3/200,p3,p3/8
asig oscili kshape,p5,2
kvel linseg .1,3*(p3/5),13,2*(p3/5),.5
kdeg oscili 1,kvel,1
kdist linseg idist,3*(p3/5),idist/15,2*(p3/5),idist
a1,a2,a4,a3 locsig asig,kdeg,kdist,.3
ar1,ar2,ar4,ar3 locsend
ga1=ga1+ar1
ga2=ga2+ar2
ga3=ga3+ar3
ga4=ga4+ar4
outq a1,a2,a4,a3
endin
instr 99
a1 reverb2 ga1,1.12,.2
a2 reverb2 ga2,1.12,.2
a3 reverb2 ga3,1.12,.2
a4 reverb2 ga4,1.12,.2
outq a1,a2,a4,a3
ga1=0
ga2=0
ga3=0
ga4=0
endin
;releasenn.sco
f1 0 512 07 0 512 360 ;degree
f2 0 4096 10 1 .8 .6 .4 .2 .05
i1 0 30 30000 760 15
i99 0 30
e
Thanks a lot!
Ignacio de Campos
--
Ignacio de Campos/Gloria Cunha
Rua Helenita Aparecida Bassan de Sa' n792
13083-723 - Campinas, SP
glocunha@turing.unicamp.br
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/9619/musicanova.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/7055/bimesp98.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/9147/dada.html
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:48:32 -0200
From: Ignacio de Campos
Subject: Problems with locsig...
To: Csound Mail-list
Message-id: <365C5100.D67FDD72@TURING.UNICAMP.BR>
Organization: melhor que a sua!
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Hi.
There was a mistake of mine
in the last e-mail:
Channels 2, 3 and 4 have the
same signal and same amplitude.
But the initial doubt remain -
why the circle in 4 channels
accelerando/desac. doesn't work?
Ignacio de Campos
--
Ignacio de Campos/Gloria Cunha
Rua Helenita Aparecida Bassan de Sa' n792
13083-723 - Campinas, SP
glocunha@turing.unicamp.br
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/9619/musicanova.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/7055/bimesp98.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/9147/dada.html
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:34:20 +0000
From: Richard Dobson
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To: tolve
CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Quad & Discrete 5.1
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I have some general comments around this;
there is a surround sound discussion list (described on Dave Malham's
Ambisonics website: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/ambison.htm
they spend most of their time discussing phantom sources, pinnae reflections,
speaker placments and the DVD/DTS fracas, but some useful information emerges
from time to time. Dave Malham also has Csound examples of ambisonic encoding
of sounds with rotational control. His website covers the basic maths of it,
and has pointers to digest lists for surround sound and Ambisonics.
Ambrose Field, a composer at York, has recently completed an electro-acoustic
piece using Ambisonics, and, I belive, now has a commision for a new piece,
from ICMA. Ambisonics is a much more sophisticated sorround encoding and
diffusion system than raw 5.1, and may be more what you are looking for,
especially if you want to rotate sounds, or soundfields, periphonically.
With regard to multi-channel files, both WAVE and AIFF can in principle be
extenede to any number of channels (Csound will write a quad WAVE file, for
example, if asked). Soundcards are now appearing which can play such files
(Sonorus Studi/o, Creamware Tdat-16, and their imminent PULSAR card), so you
will not be obliged to manage separate mono files (unless that suits your way
of working, of course!).
A 8-channel opcode was posted to this group some while back, and I recall it
is one John Fitch's list of Things To Do, to addd this to the canonical
sources in some generalized form. I'm not so sure about quad input though.
A precursor to what you describe is the SPACE unit generator which F.R. Moore
provide in his program CMusic (PC version called pcmusic).
5.1 originated as a Cinema surround format, and the centre channel is
typically used for dialogue (localized), rather than for music. I don't think
in itself it would do much to remove 'hole-in-the-middle' effects - plain
stereo constant-power panning can do that already.
I am also working on multi-channel support in CDP - do feel freee to email me
privately if you want more info on that.
Richard Dobson
tolve wrote:
>
> Warning: dull laborious, though real world problem ahead!
>
> let's begin with the goal:
> start with a discrete quad mix consisting of 4 individual (mono) soundfiles (AIFF's) and enhance it by automatically creating a fifth mono soundfile.
>
> definition:
> 5.1 usually refers to a speaker set-up frequently used for stereo surround sound (not the topic of this post). 3 speakers are positioned in front, 2 in the rear, and the ".1" refers to a subwoofer which handles the low low frequencies. for purposes here, let's forget the subwoofer as an outboard crossover will handle that nicely. what i refer to as the enhanced part is the extra speaker located at middle front -quite useful in large venues to avoid the "hole in the middle" sound effect and for more precise perception of position of sounds. ok if you prefer to call this pentaud or something. just want to make it clear that we're not adding another dimension.
>
> challenge:
> surprisingly enough, in this case to spotlight csound's superior efficiency against commercial mixing aps including USD20000+ digidesign protools system.
>
> desired method:
> pull 4 discrete tracks (mono soundfiles) into csound individually using diskin. these would then be used to generate automatically the fifth (center) track (mono soundfile).
>
> Important: the positioning of the sounds and the manner in which they pan should not be altered by the addition of this extra track (speakers). the result would be, in the case of 5.1, five separate aiff files.
>
> to further clarify: the levels of the four discrete tracks would be adjusted accordingly and the new fifth file would be created in such a way as to maintain all positioning of sounds in the quad image as they were in the original quad mix.
>
> Incidentally, if anyone is feeling additionally ambitious, 7.1 adds to the above additional enhancements: 2 speakers, one on each side midway between the front and rear speakers (middle left and middle right). for 7.1, the result would be seven separate aiff files, again positioning of the sounds and the way in which they travel should be the same as in the original quad mix. and in a large hall, keep adding speakers till your budget bursts!
>
> ok. 5th file generating orc & sco anyone?
>
> would also welcome, in a separate post, a mathematical response which i will subsequently hope to one day understand.
>
> and in case someone thinks this is best addressed with a new opcode, don't blame me (smile).
>
> tolve
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To: Richard Dobson , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos
From: tolve
Subject: Re: Quad & Discrete 5.1
Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk
Precedence: bulk
thanks for your well detailed response richard. perhaps i'll sign on to
that list for a bit.
in the theater space i just left, i was playing back a simple stereo file.
the speakers unfortunately were not well placed for much of the audience
-too high, too far apart, and too far forward (a few rows of the audience
were even behind the speakers!). among the results: that whole in the
middle i mentioned. not just for sounds panning, but all the time. now of
course the speakers could have both been tilted towards the center a bit
but that would have ruined the imaging for a portion of the audience
further back. next time i expect to have more control over placement and
that should help.
for those jumping on this thread let me repeat that i am not referring to
5.1 as it is usually configured for surround sound. this is about taking a
true quad mix and adding an additional speaker between the two in the front
without altering the quad image.
tolve
>I have some general comments around this;
>
>there is a surround sound discussion list (described on Dave Malham's
>Ambisonics website: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/ambison.htm
>
>they spend most of their time discussing phantom sources, pinnae reflections,
>speaker placments and the DVD/DTS fracas, but some useful information emerges
>from time to time. Dave Malham also has Csound examples of ambisonic encoding
>of sounds with rotational control. His website covers the basic maths of it,
>and has pointers to digest lists for surround sound and Ambisonics.
>
>Ambrose Field, a composer at York, has recently completed an electro-acoustic
>piece using Ambisonics, and, I belive, now has a commision for a new piece,
>from ICMA. Ambisonics is a much more sophisticated sorround encoding and
>diffusion system than raw 5.1, and may be more what you are looking for,
>especially if you want to rotate sounds, or soundfields, periphonically.
>
>With regard to multi-channel files, both WAVE and AIFF can in principle be
>extenede to any number of channels (Csound will write a quad WAVE file, for
>example, if asked). Soundcards are now appearing which can play such files
>(Sonorus Studi/o, Creamware Tdat-16, and their imminent PULSAR card), so you
>will not be obliged to manage separate mono files (unless that suits your way
>of working, of course!).
>
>A 8-channel opcode was posted to this group some while back, and I recall it
>is one John Fitch's list of Things To Do, to addd this to the canonical
>sources in some generalized form. I'm not so sure about quad input though.
>
>A precursor to what you describe is the SPACE unit generator which F.R. Moore
>provide in his program CMusic (PC version called pcmusic).
>
>5.1 originated as a Cinema surround format, and the centre channel is
>typically used for dialogue (localized), rather than for music. I don't think
>in itself it would do much to remove 'hole-in-the-middle' effects - plain
>stereo constant-power panning can do that already.
>
>I am also working on multi-channel support in CDP - do feel freee to email me
>privately if you want more info on that.
>
>
>Richard Dobson
>
>tolve wrote:
>>
>> Warning: dull laborious, though real world problem ahead!
>>
>> let's begin with the goal:
>> start with a discrete quad mix consisting of 4 individual (mono)
>>soundfiles (AIFF's) and enhance it by automatically creating a fifth mono
>>soundfile.
>>
>> definition:
>> 5.1 usually refers to a speaker set-up frequently used for stereo
>>surround sound (not the topic of this post). 3 speakers are positioned in
>>front, 2 in the rear, and the ".1" refers to a subwoofer which handles
>>the low low frequencies. for purposes here, let's forget the subwoofer as
>>an outboard crossover will handle that nicely. what i refer to as the
>>enhanced part is the extra speaker located at middle front -quite useful
>>in large venues to avoid the "hole in the middle" sound effect and for
>>more precise perception of position of sounds. ok if you prefer to call
>>this pentaud or something. just want to make it clear that we're not
>>adding another dimension.
>>
>> challenge:
>> surprisingly enough, in this case to spotlight csound's superior
>>efficiency against commercial mixing aps including USD20000+ digidesign
>>protools system.
>>
>> desired method:
>> pull 4 discrete tracks (mono soundfiles) into csound individually using
>>diskin. these would then be used to generate automatically the fifth
>>(center) track (mono soundfile).
>>
>> Important: the positioning of the sounds and the manner in which they
>>pan should not be altered by the addition of this extra track (speakers).
>>the result would be, in the case of 5.1, five separate aiff files.
>>
>> to further clarify: the levels of the four discrete tracks would be
>>adjusted accordingly and the new fifth file would be created in such a
>>way as to maintain all positioning of sounds in the quad image as they
>>were in the original quad mix.
>>
>> Incidentally, if anyone is feeling additionally ambitious, 7.1 adds to
>>the above additional enhancements: 2 speakers, one on each side midway
>>between the front and rear speakers (middle left and middle right). for
>>7.1, the result would be seven separate aiff files, again positioning of
>>the sounds and the way in which they travel should be the same as in the
>>original quad mix. and in a large hall, keep adding speakers till your
>>budget bursts!
>>
>> ok. 5th file generating orc & sco anyone?
>>
>> would also welcome, in a separate post, a mathematical response which i
>>will subsequently hope to one day understand.
>>
>> and in case someone thinks this is best addressed with a new opcode,
>>don't blame me (smile).
>>
>> tolve
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From: Jim Stevenson
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk, tlv@tuna.net
Subject: Re: Quad & Discrete 5.1
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Yes, and what are the formulas to turn 4 chan discrete into 5, 7, 9, (4+2n+1)?
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tolve wrote:
> particular sound in each of the speakers must change and therefore the
> levels of it in each track. there has been some mention of the joys of
> joysticking as well as other controllers. anyone using joysticks to mix?
Hmmm... anybody tried xyin with a mouse set to low sensitivity on a BIG
mouse pad, so you could really get your elbows into it? Sounds appealing
in theory to me...
PW
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:39:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Karpen
To: tolve
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk, "Vercoe, Scotty"
Subject: Re: Quad Mixing
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Might not be what you're looking for, but you might not be aware of
the locsig and space "family" of unit generators that I added to csound
recently. They are pretty simple to use, and perhaps the processing is
too simple for what you want to do. But they can be expanded if the desire
is there.
Also take a look at the beta release of SoundSpace from my center (CARTAH)
http://www.washington.edu/cartah/soundspace/index.html
which you can use to create different sound movement tracks for use with
space, spdist, spsend.
cheers,
Richard Karpen
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From: John Harvey
Subject: Windows Specific flags
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Hi,
I can't get the windows specific flags (namely -p and -e) to work with
3.493 (the console version). Using WCshell doesn't help. I have gotten
these flags to work with direct sound 2.1.
Here is a sample command line
csound -odevaudio -b8192 -p5 -d -m1 -e -r44000 -k440 file.orc file.sco
Since I have used these with Direct Sound (with the appropriate + signs), I
know that my sound card is compatible.
Any suggestions?
John
=======================
John Harvey
Multimedia Specialist
University of Richmond
(804) 287-6011
mailto:jharvey4@richmond.edu
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From: Anders Andersson
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Subject: Phase shift by +-90 degrees?
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Hello! I have a (simple?) question:
How can one easily do a 90 degree phase-shift on a signal?
Please explain theoretical, and not just how to
implement it in CSound, as I'm probably going to
use it when programming in other languages too.
.--- -- - -
| Anders "Pipe/Nature" Andersson, pipe@algonet.se
:
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From: David Boothe
To: 'Richard Dobson' , tolve
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Quad & Discrete 5.1
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:27:17 -0600
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I hate to be picky about this, but I would like to clear up a few points.
The 5.1 playback format derives from cinema playback systems. These systems
have multiple channels ranged across the front to lend spatial stability to
the signal, regardless of where the listener is seated in the theater. It is
true that in a 4 channel LCRS system such as Dolby Stereo, the center
channel gets primarily dialogue, but that is not necessarily set in stone.
True, one can rely on 2 speakers to place the dialogue in a center phantom
channel. But, in that situation, if a listener is sitting on the left side
of the theater (for example), he will hear the dialogue coming from the left
speaker - a distracting experience. This is what the center channel are
intended to do - plant the dialogue, or any other center-critical material,
firmly in the middle of the screen. The additional front channels in 7 or 8
channel theatrical systems are just extensions of this concept.
As for panning, you should use some "pan law" to reduce the level of signal
as it pans through the center, not just a reciprocal gain change from one
channel to the other. Use a straight line and you get an apparent increase
of level in the middle, relative to when the signal is only in the left or
right channels. I think this is what RD means by constant-power panning.
There are various pan laws, but most are 3, 4 or 6 dB. In Csound you can do
this with a table of a negative going half-sine, scaled so that the minimum
value is -3 dB (or whatever your pan law is) relative to each end. Or
something more bizarre, if you prefer.
5.1 is a format for delivery to home sound systems. It is digitally encoded
into some delivery format, such as DVD (whatever it ends up like), so I'm
not sure why you would want to limit yourself to that.
As for a derived center channel, you would probably only want to sun the 2
front channels, not the rear ones, into the center. The level of this
channel would then need to be reduced by some amount, to prevent the center
channel form dominating the soundstage. 6 dB seems right in theory, but in
practice, you might want to determine the appropriate attenuation
empirically.
Joy sticks - yes. Go to any film dubbing theater and you'll see at least
one, usually several, in the mixing console.
Hope this helps, and is not insultingly elementary.
-David.
Richard Dobson & tolve wrote (among other things):
>
> 5.1 originated as a Cinema surround format, and the centre channel is
> typically used for dialogue (localized), rather than for
> music. I don't think
> in itself it would do much to remove 'hole-in-the-middle'
> effects - plain
> stereo constant-power panning can do that already.
>
> tolve wrote:
> >
> enhanced part is the extra speaker located at middle front
> -quite useful in large venues to avoid the "hole in the
> middle" sound effect and for more precise perception of
> position of sounds. ok if you prefer to call this pentaud or
> something. just want to make it clear that we're not adding
> another dimension.
> > desired method:
> > pull 4 discrete tracks (mono soundfiles) into csound
> individually using diskin. these would then be used to
> generate automatically the fifth (center) track (mono soundfile).
> >
> > Important: the positioning of the sounds and the manner in
> which they pan should not be altered by the addition of this
> extra track (speakers). the result would be, in the case of
> 5.1, five separate aiff files.
> >
> > to further clarify: the levels of the four discrete tracks
> would be adjusted accordingly and the new fifth file would be
> created in such a way as to maintain all positioning of
> sounds in the quad image as they were in the original quad mix.
> >
> > Incidentally, if anyone is feeling additionally ambitious,
> 7.1 adds to the above additional enhancements: 2 speakers,
> one on each side midway between the front and rear speakers
> (middle left and middle right). for 7.1, the result would be
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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:29:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Mary Roberts
To: csound
Subject: in orc and score files
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Hello,
Does anyone have any orc and score files using the *in* opcode? I can't
find much documentation on how to set up the files to use this opcode.
thanks, mary
Mary Lee A. Roberts, e-mail: robertsm@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu
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From: Richard Dobson
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To: David Boothe
CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Quad & Discrete 5.1
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My understanding of 'constant-power panning' is pretty well the sine curve -
this should result in a sound which appears to maintain constant radial
distance from the listener, with respect to the two speakers (i.e the sound
trajectory lies on a circle passing through the speakers, centred on the
listener).
To move a sound in a straght line between the speakers is somewhat more
complex, and by definition requires the positions of the speakers and of the
listener(s) to be taken into account; and is unlikely to work for multiple
listeners widely separated. Much more sophisticated methods are required for
this - hence Ambisonics, etc.
As for extracting material for a centre speaker, I gather (from posts to the
sursound list) that the best method is to extract the common signal from L and
R (assuming there is some - likely for conventional acoustic recordings, much
less so for synthetic stuff unless sounds are panpotted) to apply to the
center speaker. Applying a full mono mix would probably reduce the stereo
imaging considerably. There are other issues such as inter-aural delays, and
frequency-dependent extraction, given that low frequencies are more suited to
centre-mono projection than high ones. Applying a carefully calculated delay
to a signal can persuade the ear it is further away, even if is is louder than
the original.
I can't elaborate on any of this; I tend to work at home, using cheap
headphones a lot of the time :-(, and have no facilities with which to explore
these things! One thing emphasized by all the sursound contributors is that
four speakers are woefully inadequate for creating a fully immersive
soundfield; sound will always tend to get pulled into the nearest speaker. A
demo of 'wavefront synthesis' recently described on that list used 160
speakers! More realistically, an arrangement of six or more speakers placed
equidistantly around the listener can be made to work very well.
On the other hand, 'dipole speakers' - about 30 degrees apart (the classic
stereo separation is more like 60 degrees), fed with crosstalk-cancelled
signals, can create a very vivid stereo image extending beyond the speakers,
despite the narrow separation. I have yet to hear a demo of this, sadly.
How one can apply any of this compositionally seems to me to be a 'very
interesting question'.
Richard Dobson
David Boothe wrote:
>
> I hate to be picky about this, but I would like to clear up a few points.
>
[snip]
> As for panning, you should use some "pan law" to reduce the level of signal
> as it pans through the center, not just a reciprocal gain change from one
> channel to the other. Use a straight line and you get an apparent increase
> of level in the middle, relative to when the signal is only in the left or
> right channels. I think this is what RD means by constant-power panning.
> There are various pan laws, but most are 3, 4 or 6 dB. In Csound you can do
> this with a table of a negative going half-sine, scaled so that the minimum
> value is -3 dB (or whatever your pan law is) relative to each end. Or
> something more bizarre, if you prefer.
>
[etc]
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From: roger klaveness
To: csound ,
Gabriel Maldonado
Subject: Re: beOS
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:00:36 +0100
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>What about the C-compilers and high level languages?
>
PPC: Metrowerks CodeWarrior
Intel: For the new release (R4) , they have switched to GNU EGCS as
CodeWarrior was
no good on Intel. EGCS should be excellent.
For R4 C-compilers are included ( well GNU compilers are free anyway )
>There is a sort of visual basic in BeOS? Is the C IDE and symbol
browser evolved enough
>(as MSVC)?
Aparently they have some kind of IDE but what, I don't know.
>
>I'm very interested in BeOS, where can I get a copy for my intel
computer in Italy?
http://www.beeurope.com/resellers/index.html
Looks bad for Italy though, Norway also :-(
It seems like a smart move to wait until R4 hits the streets
Roger Klaveness
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From: William Guerin
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Subject: Misdirected Question?
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:17:54 -0500
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Please forgive me in advance for a question which may very well be
misdirected. After a bit of frustration developing for csound under
windows, I installed a dual boot of red hat linux on my machine.
Here is the sticking point: whenever I try to launch csound to use a midi
input and a DAC output simultaneously, I get this error:
cannot reopen (null)
just after the usual "writing 2048-byte blocks of shorts to devaudio". I
have tested /dev/sequencer using another application and it seems to work
fine.
Is this message being thrown up by csound, or by the operating system? what
does it mean?
My apologies if this question is misdirected or too elementary.
Bill
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