| >one other aplication I've seen mentioned on the net would be physical
>modelling, and modelling of analogue circuits; maybe one day we'll
have
>neural moog's?
Or how about David Tudor's Neural Network Synthesizer?
http://www.emf.org/tudor/Articles/warthman.html
There was an article about it in Dr. Dobb's Journal some years ago I
remember.
It seems like he used it ( a analog neural net ) as a giant feedback
network, no training of the net.
I used to like to play with a mixer, a couple of distortion boxes,
echo and reverb and
create sounds feedback-loops in different variations, adjusting eq and
effect-send.
Nice sounds but not for the faint hearted.
I haven't heard the neural synthesizer but it looks interesting.
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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 98 14:11:52 BST
From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Old version of Csound
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Message written at 02 Jul 1998 22:45:04 +0100
--- Copy of mail to batov@glasnet.ru ---
In-reply-to: (message from Sergey on Wed,
1 Jul 1998 01:27:02 +0400)
References:
Fixed in csound 3.483
>>>>> "Sergey" == Sergey writes:
Sergey> "error: Characters after \ not comment".
Sergey> It's happen because of new rules of comments.
Sergey> The version 3.473 worked without this problem.
==John ffitch
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From: Robin Whittle
Organization: First Principles
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 23:36:20 +1000
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Subject: Undocumented opcodes
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Here is information on a number of undocumented opcodes in the
current and recent versions of Csound.
This is an edited version of what I just wrote to Jean Piche.
Information follows on the following opcodes:
tablekt
tableikt
icgoto
kcgoto
gcgoto
ktone
katone
kreson
kareson
oscilx
limit
ilimit
seed
peakk
peaka
The other two undocumented opcodes I know of are:
ktableseg
ktablexseg
I haven't looked at these - they are Richard Karpen's pvoc.c.
All the details follow
- Robin
After nearly two years, I am getting back into Csound!
I hadn't realised that my rewrite of the table read code had been
incorporated, in ugens1.c. I am glad it has!
This includes the ugens "tablekt" and "tableikt" which enable
changing the table number at k rate. However these two ugens are
not mentioned in the manual.
I propose that I write some new text to describe:
table, tablei, tablekt and tableikt
on one page, with a proper, more detailed description of wrap mode,
offsets, interpolation and the guard point. The "guard point"
concept is one that puzzles people, and this is an excellent place
to describe it fully. (Actually, on the bottom of the "table,
tablei, oscil1, oscil1i" page, it talks about the guard point, but
confusingly does not use the term "guard point".
Then I propose that the following ugens have their own page:
oscil1, oscil1i, osciln
[Jean said this is fine - I will send him some text or HTML.]
The syntax is:
kr tablekt kndx, kfn[, ixmode][, ixoff][, iwrap]
kr tableikt kndx, kfn[, ixmode][, ixoff][, iwrap]
Which is identical to table and tablei, except that the second
input parameter is a k rate (can still be an i rate) variable,
instead of being i rate.
> kcgoto
========
There are functions icgoto() and kcgoto() in insert.c and they have
been there since February 1995 at least. They are used with the
opcodes:
icgoto, kcgoto and gcgoto
which have been in entry.c since then as well.
None of these are mentioned in the current manual.
It is clear that they are conditional gotos, where the
first parameter must be a boolean. A boolean is an integer inside
csound, not a float like a k rate value. The only things that
return a boolean are:
> >= < <= == != && ||
So, although I haven't tested them, I guess they would be used as
kgoto p3 > 5 , label
So I think that these three are functionally equivalent to the
already documented "if . . . xgoto " constructs.
icgoto ia R ib , label } i time only.
== if ia R ib igoto label }
kcgoto ia R ib , label } k time only.
== if ka R kb kgoto label }
gcgoto ia R ib , label } i or k time.
== if ka R kb igoto label }
I suggest that they should be tested (its not convenient for me
right now) and documented on the same page as igoto etc.
> kareson
> kreson
> ktone
> katone
> kport
=========
These are all mine - they are in ugrw2.c.
kport is documented in the manual in "port.html" however it is not
mentioned in "CONTENTS.html"
The other four should be included on the same page.
port Deals with k rate signals, with an i rate time.
kport Deals with k rate signals, with a *k* rate time.
tone } All have k rate control of frequency and bandwidth
atone } but deal only in *a* rate input and output signals.
areson }
areson }
ktone } Are just like those above, but they deal with
katone } *k* rate input and output signals.
kreson }
kareson }
So just mention this and include syntax lines such as:
kr ktone ksig, khp[, istor]
kr katone ksig, khp[, istor]
kr kreson ksig, kcf, kbw[, iscl, istor]
kr kareson ksig, kcf, kbw[, iscl, istor]
> oscilx
========
This is a 1994 creation of Paris Smaragdis. See aoscilx.c/h.
Like far too much software, there aren't any comments. I find it
so exasperating!!!!!!!!
It looks like it puts out a rate audio and has four input
parameters:
k "amp" Amplitude.
i "freq" Frequency in Hertz.
i "ift" Table number.
i "periods" How many cycles through the table should be played.
After they have been played, put out 0.
Considering there's not k rate frequency, its not very exciting.
> limit
=======
This is one of mine. Pretty much all that can be said of them is
in ugrw2.c. Slightly reworked, this is:
limit, ilimit - syntax
ir ilimit isig, ilow, ihigh
kr limit ksig, klow, khigh
ar limit asig, klow, khigh
These set lower and upper limits on the xsig value they process.
If xhigh is lower than xlow, then the output will not be affected
by xsig, and will be the average of xhigh and xlow.
> seed
======
This is part of the main random number / noise system - in
cmath.c. It calls the C library's srand() function with the single
i rate input parameter. It has no output. Looking at the source
for seedrand() in cmath.c, if the parameter is 0, it uses the
current time for the seed. Otherwise it casts the floating point
input parameter into an integer and uses that as a seed. I think
that means that fractional parts of the input parameter are
irrelevant.
The trouble with this entire random / noise system is that it
relies on the C library's rand() function - which is very often
pathetically limited to a 16 bit pseudo-random number generator
(PRNG). There's no way this is good enough for audio! Also, the
ability of other programs to muck around with this system is
unacceptable too.
In September 1995 I fixed this up for my own system - with a 31
bit PRNG, and I am about to do it again and will post details to
the list.
There are two other random / noise systems in Csound:
1 - In ugens4.c, there is the rand, randh and randi code.
These are self-contained 16 bit PRNGs which can have their
seed set as an option. Each instance maintains its own state.
2 - Barry's recently added irnd, ibrnd, krnd and kbirnd code in
aops.c. These are part of a single, self-contained, 32 bit
PRNG. The seed is always set at the start of Csound
running, (so they always produce the same set of numbers!)
All instances of these ugens share the one PRNG, with the one
state. It is a simple PRNG and I don't know anything about
the quality of noise it produces.
> peak
======
peakk and peaka are mine too. The doco is in ugrw1.c:
Two ugens for tracking peak signal levels
-----------------------------------------
peakk takes k rate inputs and peak takes a rate inputs.
They maintain the output k rate variable as the peak
absolute level so far received.
kpeakout peakk ksigin
kpeakout peaka asigin
kpeakout Output equal to the highest absolute value
received so far.
This is effectively an input to the ugen as well,
since it reads kpeakout in order to decide whether
to write something higher into it.
ksigin k rate input signal.
asigin a rate input signal.
- - - - - - - - - - -
===============================================================
Robin Whittle rw@firstpr.com.au http://www.firstpr.com.au
Heidelberg Heights, Melbourne, Australia
First Principles Research and expression: music, Internet
music marketing, telecommunications, human
factors in technology adoption. Consumer
advocacy in telecommunications, especially
privacy. Consulting and technical writing.
Real World Electronics and software for music: eg.
Interfaces the Devil Fish mods for the TB-303.
===============================================================
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Subject: ftp archive back
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>Does anyone know whether this is still the Internet address for Patchwork
by Keith Lent and Russell Pinkston?
>
> ftp://indigo.pac.utexas.edu/pub/windows/Patchwork
>
>I haven't been able to access this site for over a month.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Terry Cast
>University of Oklahoma
>
The indigo.pac.utexas.edu site has been down for months, due to various
hardware problems. These are now fixed, and the site should be back on line
within a week. In the meantime, Patchwork is still available at the bath
ftp site, as far as I know.
Russell Pinkston
Russell F. Pinkston, D. M. A.
Associate Professor of Composition
Director, Electronic Music Studios
School of Music
University of Texas
Austin, TX 78712
512-471-7764
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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:41:54 +0200 (CEST)
From: Martin Entlicher
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Table sizes
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I'm just beginner with csound, so may be that I did something wrong, but
when I put several large aiff files (over 400 KB each) into tables, only
first three were producing the right output with loscil. The other tables
produced silence. When I used smaller samples, it worked fine. Is that
because of limited memory for tables ? Have you any idea, how to solve
this problem ?
Thanks,
Martin Entlicher
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Try using diskin for reading large samples, instead of loscil.
--
Mike Berry
mikeb@nmol.com
http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb
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From: Hans Mikelson
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Subject: Re: AI using Csound was Re: a simple per
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:41:07 -0500
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Hi,
Hans wrote:
>>These applications could be implemented as Csound opcodes or perhaps a
more
>>flexible neural network implementation could be developed. Maybe a
>>perceptron or neural network opcode could be implemented with weights
>>supplied in table form so different functions could be implemented with a
>>single opcode.
Pedro wrote:
>a neural ugen would have to be
>fully flexible in structure, and data independent, so that it could be used
>to learn about anything, allowing to implement all the above applications;
>problem is still the slowness of the back-prop algo; some faster algorithms
>exist, and when coding in C some reduction to integer math could help
>speeding things up;
I think that perhaps a utility program would be useful for training the net.
Perhaps there is a popular, publicly available, cross-platform ANN package
which already exists. If the Csound opcode were able to read this file
format you could do the training in this "utility" program and then use the
result in Csound. Then you would not have to reinvent the wheel so much.
I realize that most of the neural applications I mentioned already exist but
they are not available in the Csound environment.
Bye,
Hans Mikelson
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From: David Schuyeteneer
To: Csound List
Subject: Sound description <---> Sound streaming
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:02:40 +0200
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What an intruiging idea i had.
Instead of ever further developping algorithms for coding audio signals so
that they
fit in a certain bandwidth (like internet), we should develop a way to
DESCRIBE
the properties, behavior and characteristics of a soundsignal and
transmitting
THOSE instead of the mass-data of the signal itself.......
Simple synthesis methods would be not such a problem....but...what if one
wants
to transmit complex signals like sampled sounds ???? Detailed
interpolation algorithms on FFT windows ??? maybe with sublevel deviation
description between
successive FFT frames, to enhance the flat interpolation...
David.
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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 17:30:20 +0100
From: Ben Jefferys
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David Schuyeteneer wrote:
> we should develop a way to
> DESCRIBE
> the properties, behavior and characteristics of a soundsignal and
> transmitting
> THOSE instead of the mass-data of the signal itself.......
It is such a good idea, it has already been developed in the same labs
as Csound (based on Csound)! ;) There was a pointer to the site on
this list just the other day.
> Simple synthesis methods would be not such a problem....but...what if one
> wants
> to transmit complex signals like sampled sounds ???? Detailed
> interpolation algorithms on FFT windows ??? maybe with sublevel deviation
> description between
> successive FFT frames, to enhance the flat interpolation...
I believe this is the basis of the original MPEG audio compression.
I might be telling you stuff you already know, so forgive me, but
FFT is performed on frames of audio, and stuff stripped out which
it estimates the human ear cannot perceive - eg. less resolution
on extreme frequences, masking and so on.
Good thinking anyway, and join the club of people who've had seemingly
amazing new ideas only to find they've been done already ;)
Thanks!
Ben.
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From: Pedro Batista
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Message-Id: <0899485738/0414833502/1*@mailpac.pt>
Subject: Re: AI using Csound was Re: a simple per
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Hans Mikelson wrote:
>I think that perhaps a utility program would be useful for training the
net.
>Perhaps there is a popular, publicly available, cross-platform ANN package
>which already exists. If the Csound opcode were able to read this file
>format you could do the training in this "utility" program and then use the
>result in Csound. Then you would not have to reinvent the wheel so much.
the only problem I see is that this utility program would need access to all
the training data, so we could not be training the net with sonic material
generated within csound
Thats why I was thinking more of a pair of ugens, a slow one that would be
the training ugen, which would export the learned weights somewhere (a table
or external file) and a 2nd ugen which would use this set of weights and
just perform the response to whatever stimulus; this 2nd ugen would be very
fast since all it had to do was calculate the net response
pedro
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Subject: Re: Table sizes
From: "M. Ray McFerron"
To: Mike Berry ,
Martin Entlicher
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what is the max table size of Gen01? If it's documented, I must have missed
it... Anyway, I've had similar problems (although with larger soundfiles)-
And I prefer to use loscil...
MRM
****************************
M. Ray McFerron
828 E. 22nd Ave
North Kansas City, MO 64116
** http://cctr.umkc.edu/~mmcferron **
****************************
----------
>From: Mike Berry
>To: Martin Entlicher
>Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Table sizes
>Date: Fri, Jul 3, 1998, 3:35 PM
>
>Try using diskin for reading large samples, instead of loscil.
>--
>Mike Berry
>mikeb@nmol.com
>http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:15:42 -0700
From: Jim Stevenson
Message-Id: <199807031715.KAA18609@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
To: ben@qsure.demon.co.uk, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: MPEG compression?
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Where can I get a technical description, and the source code for the
algorithms that do the compression and decompression?
What compression ratios can be achieved?
Is stereo treated as two mono chanels, or can we do better by encoding
sum and difference?
Thanks.
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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 11:57:09 -0600
From: Mike Berry
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To: Jim Stevenson , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: MPEG compression?
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Most current MPEG, which is MPEG layer 3, is proprietary, and therefore not
too accessable. It also comes in a number of different implementations.
However, in general, the data rate is adjustable, like JPEG, to different
quality levels. Compression rates vary from 20:1 or more, which sound
horrible, to no compression, or even data expansion. The standard settings
are usually 10:1 compression. Personally, I find that the quality is
significantly degraded, despite the fact the everyone trumpets the idea that
MPEG-3 is "CD-Quality." A lot of it depends on your playback system, since
much of the loss is in the high frequencies. If you are listening on little
computer multimedia speakers, the max frequency is probably 12-15k. So who
cares if the higher frequencies are lost. But on my studio monitors, the
compressed copy rarely sounds too much like the original.
MPEG layers 1 and 2 generally perform worse than MPEG layer 3. There is
source around for 1 and 2, though, since they are not proprietary.
On the stereo issue, a common trick is to simply make the compressed version
mono, therefore achieving an instant 2:1 compression.
There are some demo apps around for MPEG-3 encoding, like MPecker. There are
many more MPEG-3 decoders.
--
Mike Berry
mikeb@nmol.com
http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb
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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 20:16:24 +0100
From: Richard Dobson
Organization: Composers Desktop project
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To: Jim Stevenson
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Subject: Re: compiler
References: <199807031126.EAA03511@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
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Well, making Csound re-entrant will benefit all platforms. COM is indeed a
Microsoft invention (though they do have a version for the Mac, and are trying
to extend it to unix through DCOM - Idon't know how realistic this is, or how
much take-up there is), so the particular ideas Michael Gogins and I have been
exploring are indeed specific to that platform. I do think that once the
re-entrancy has been achieved, developers on all platforms will jump at the
opportunity to create all manner of powerful facilities.
A properly developed Windows application is supposed to provide keyboard
alternative for all mouse commands, and such things as menu controls are almost
automatic, using Visual C++. I like keyboard control myself, so I do not neglect
this feature in my own work!
Richadr Dobson
Jim Stevenson wrote:
>
> Oh arg!
>
> Please don't limit such promising development tools to M$,
> and please do include commands to do * ALL * the mouse functions.
>
> If you quote me, please put your comments first.
> I have already listened to my questions.
>
> Thanks.
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From: David Schuyeteneer
To: Csound List
Subject: Subject of research ??
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 23:09:31 +0200
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I'd like to know what you Csounders are currently interested in, I mean :
what
kind of style/music are you currently focussed on ?? Like me, for example,
I am
exploring ("studying" would be a big word, really) explitly the realm of
rich textures,
varying richness and also the possibilities of hovering between real
emotions and abstract emotions, i.e. emotions wich are certainly feelings,
but not necessairy the
feel-happy-in-awe type of thing found in lots of ambient pieces, but
somewhere between
gestalt-like structure and the awe-emotion. For this I have found the work
of Maryanne
Amacher very well suited to listen to.
David.
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:51:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Subject of research ??
Message-Id: <19980703.185211.3454.0.jhclouse@juno.com>
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From: Jason H Clouse
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On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 davids@pavell.com writes:
> I'd like to know what you Csounders are currently
> interested in, I mean : what kind of style/music are you
> currently focussed on ?? Like me, for example, I am
> exploring ("studying" would be a big word, really)
> explitly the realm of rich textures, varying richness
> and also the possibilities of hovering between real
> emotions and abstract emotions, i.e. emotions wich are
> certainly feelings, but not necessairy the
> feel-happy-in-awe type of thing found in lots of ambient
> pieces, but somewhere between gestalt-like structure and
> the awe-emotion. For this I have found the work of
> Maryanne Amacher very well suited to listen to.
I have been noticing that there is a difference between
music that I like because of the "notes" and music that I
like because of the "sounds". The music that pleases me
the most is that which satisfies both. I guess music has
been steadily progressing from "note-oriented" to
"sound-oriented" over time. Now, composers can have
absolute control over the finished product if they so
choose (of course, this limits the ability to put
compositions into sheet-music--has anyone been working
with alternate forms of notation recently?) I would love
to hear what Beethoven would do with modern instruments
and recording techniques. Anyway, for me the best modern
composer who can manage to marry notes and sounds (and
acoustic and synth too) has been Chip Davis (Fresh Aire
I-VI anyway--I have found his recent efforts to be far
less enjoyable). I like early Chicago (1968-80 or so) for
their notes and overall sound. I guess I like a really
crisp clearly defined sound (I feel that there's *way* too
much reverb-in-a-can going on these days). Sorry for the
rambling...
Yours Truly,
Jason Clouse
---------------------------
email:jhclouse@juno.com
"Good times...GET RAW!!!"
---------------------------
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Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 11:09:09 +0100
From: Ben Jefferys
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Subject of research ??
Message-Id: <5421516048%ben@qsure.demon.co.uk>
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In message <19980703.185211.3454.0.jhclouse@juno.com>
jhclouse@juno.com (Jason H Clouse) wrote:
> I have been noticing that there is a difference between
> music that I like because of the "notes" and music that I
> like because of the "sounds".
Absolutely - the endless stream of guitar/drum/vocal based music is bound to
leave us wanting a greater variety of aural stimulation, at the waveform
level, if not the composition.
> Now, composers can have
> absolute control over the finished product if they so
> choose (of course, this limits the ability to put
> compositions into sheet-music--has anyone been working
> with alternate forms of notation recently?)
Would there be any real use to this? Shifting, say, a Csound composition to a
human-readable form (as I guess is the point of sheet music) would be
reasonably pointless since no human could ever hope to reproduce the exact
sound with any accuracy. An analogy might be the idea that the most complete
specification of what a program does is the progam itself. (That's not to
say the most "best" specification of a piece of music is its waveform...)
> I would love
> to hear what Beethoven would do with modern instruments
> and recording techniques.
I wonder if Beethoven would even be a composer if given modern equipment.
Perhaps his skill was limited to the orchestral and standard musical notation
domain. I'm no expert of course... ;)
--
... ben jefferys ...
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Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 11:18:21 +0100
From: Ben Jefferys
To: jims@eos.arc.nasa.gov
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: MPEG compression?
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In message <199807031715.KAA18609@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Jim Stevenson wrote:
> Where can I get a technical description, and the source code for the
> algorithms that do the compression and decompression?
You will find pointers to many useful sites at:
http://www.mpeg.org/~tristan/MPEG/audio.html
There is also a section on MP3 elsewhere on the mpeg.org site.
--
... ben jefferys ...
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Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 12:58:11 +0100
From: Jamie Bullock
Subject: Notation, was Re: Subject of research ??
To: Csound List
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Two good reasons for converting non-pitch-based pieces into some form of
abstract 'high level' notation (e.g. gestural notation of their perceived
'shape'), are i) as a performance cue in pieces for tape and live instrument
and ii) as an analytical score. In the latter case, *seeing* that a sonic
event is happening at a certain time can draw our attention to it, revealing
perhaps un-noticed details.
There have been *many* uses of graphical and other un-conventional notations
for instrumental music (too many to start talking about the subject on this
list) and most of them work on the level of suggestion (many of Cage's
graphic notations) or instruction (conventional Western notation,
Stockhausen's +- notation). Precise notation of the sound is only usually
used when the composer *knows* that it can be reproduced (e.g. some of
Wishart's work, where the voice can actually mimic elecroacoustic sounds
reasonably well by reading the score). See 'On Sonic Art' by Trevor Wishart
for a 'critical evaluation' of conventional notation ;-)
Regards,
JamieB
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Jefferys
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Date: 04 July 1998 12:22
Subject: Re: Subject of research ??
>In message <19980703.185211.3454.0.jhclouse@juno.com>
> jhclouse@juno.com (Jason H Clouse) wrote:
>> Now, composers can have
>> absolute control over the finished product if they so
>> choose (of course, this limits the ability to put
>> compositions into sheet-music--has anyone been working
>> with alternate forms of notation recently?)
>
>Would there be any real use to this? Shifting, say, a Csound composition to
a
>human-readable form (as I guess is the point of sheet music) would be
>reasonably pointless since no human could ever hope to reproduce the exact
>sound with any accuracy. An analogy might be the idea that the most
complete
>specification of what a program does is the progam itself. (That's not to
>say the most "best" specification of a piece of music is its waveform...)
>
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