| Message written at 04 Aug 1998 09:11:15 -0400
is anyone using IRCAM format, or is everyone using AIFF or WAV? If no
one is using it we can remove the code, which would be one less thing
to maintain. If it is in use please let me know.
==John ffitch
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From: "Matt J. Ingalls"
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: ircam
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the only benefit i can see is IRCAM *supports* floating point..
AIFF doesnt - AIFC does (but is not "official" - Madole/Erbe
just "made it so") - and im not sure what the story is behind WAV floats
(???)
but at least on the mac end, the only apps i know of that use IRCAM are
file converter ones...
matt
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From: Christian Lyra
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Opcodes in v.3.484
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Hi,
What happened to opcodes poscil and flange in v.3.484? the opcode
poscil was in the docs, but i cant see it when i use csound with the flag
to list all opcodes! And flange (from Gabriel Maldonado) was not yet
finished?
[ ]s
Christian Lyra
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:22:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Baker
Message-Id: <199808042022.NAA25748@shell11.ba.best.com>
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk, jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: IRCAM format
In-Reply-To:
Many apps that originated on NeXT (mxv, for instance) handle ircam format, as well as the common NeXT/Ircam
hybrid format (at least common amoung NeXT apps;-) ) The point Matt Ingalls makes about floating-point
file formats should be taken to heart: almost all my work is in floating point, until the final mix.
This reduces distortions due to quantization error: unless you are some sort of miracle recording deity,
you probably don't get samples to inhabit all 16-bits of resolution: if then you work with these samples
in integer, mixing, processing, etc., the distortion just *multiplies*: a "gritty" sound emerges from
what you thought were clean source sounds! The answer: work as much as possible in floating point:
once you have converted to flaot, and normalized the sound, processing which *should* be done in floats
doesn't introduce any more distortion than was present in the original recording. This is not theoretical
la-di-da: I have seen it again and again: students I've had were ready to toss their projects in the trash
until I got them to work in floating-point. I'm not a teacher anymore (sigh), but perhaps someone will
try this out and learn.
Why the hell isn't there *more* emphasis on floatin gpoint in musical signal processing ? Makes all the difference.
Char lieB
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From: J P Fitch
To: Christian Lyra
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Subject: Re: Opcodes in v.3.484
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Poscil was in teh documentation at soem stage but not in any code I
distributed publically. Maldonado's flanger is in the latest version
with eteh name
flanger
==JOhn
PS I have moved the sources part way to the server, and they should
be there soon if the network continues to run.
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From: J P Fitch
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Sources made it
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I have placed teh 3.484 sources on pub/dream
In answer to those who asked, I never distributed 3.483 (except to Matt)
mainly because it coincided with my summer trip. I skipped a number as my
code got out of step with Matt's (a little; a very little) at the last
minute. I still have a number of things to add before I feel up to
calling it 3.49, but we are getting closer.
==John ff
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From: Charles Baker
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jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
> Message written at 04 Aug 1998 09:11:15 -0400
>
> is anyone using IRCAM format, or is everyone using AIFF or WAV? If no
> one is using it we can remove the code, which would be one less thing
> to maintain. If it is in use please let me know.
> ==John ffitch
Many apps that originated on NeXT (mxv, for instance) handle ircam
format, as well as the NeXT/Ircam hybrid format (common at least among
NeXT apps ;-) ) The point Matt Ingalls makes about floating-point file
formats should be taken to heart: almost all my work is in floating
point, until the final mix.
This reduces distortions due to quantization error: unless you are some
sort of miracle recording deity, you probably don't get samples to
inhabit all 16-bits of resolution: if then you work with these samples
in integer,doing mixing, processing, etc., the distortion just
*multiplies*: a "gritty" sound emerges from
what you thought were clean source sounds! The answer: work as much as
possible in floating point:
once you have converted to float, and normalized the sound, processing
(which *should* be done in floats)doesn't introduce any more distortion
than was present in the original recording. This is not theoretical
la-di-da: I have seen it again and again: students I've had were ready to
toss their projects in the trash until I got them to work in
floating-point. I'm not a teacher anymore (sigh), but perhaps someone
will try this out and learn.
Why the heck isn't there *more* emphasis on floating point in musical
signal processing ? Makes all the difference
Char lieB
--
*********************************************
Charlie Baker baker@charlieb.com
"Das Ewig-Weibliche Zieht uns hinan." -Goethe
*********************************************
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Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:42:32 +0000
From: Charles Baker
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jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
> Message written at 04 Aug 1998 09:11:15 -0400
>
> is anyone using IRCAM format, or is everyone using AIFF or WAV? If no
> one is using it we can remove the code, which would be one less thing
> to maintain. If it is in use please let me know.
> ==John ffitch
Many apps that originated on NeXT (mxv, for instance) handle ircam
format, as well as the NeXT/Ircam hybrid format (common at least among
NeXT apps ;-) ) The point Matt Ingalls makes about floating-point file
formats should be taken to heart: almost all my work is in floating
point, until the final mix.
This reduces distortions due to quantization error: unless you are some
sort of miracle recording deity, you probably don't get samples to
inhabit all 16-bits of resolution: if then you work with these samples
in integer,doing mixing, processing, etc., the distortion just
*multiplies*: a "gritty" sound emerges from
what you thought were clean source sounds! The answer: work as much as
possible in floating point:
once you have converted to float, and normalized the sound, processing
(which *should* be done in floats)doesn't introduce any more distortion
than was present in the original recording. This is not theoretical
la-di-da: I have seen it again and again: students I've had were ready to
toss their projects in the trash until I got them to work in
floating-point. I'm not a teacher anymore (sigh), but perhaps someone
will try this out and learn.
Why the heck isn't there *more* emphasis on floating point in musical
signal processing ? Makes all the difference
Char lieB
--
*********************************************
Charlie Baker baker@charlieb.com
"Das Ewig-Weibliche Zieht uns hinan." -Goethe
*********************************************
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Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 21:36:36 -0400
From: Dave Phillips
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jpff wrote:
> I have placed teh 3.484 sources on pub/dream
John, will they be available as Csound.tar.gz ?
== Dave Phillips
http://www.bright.net/~dlphilp/index.html
http://www.bright.net/~dlphilp/linux_soundapps.html
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From: Michael Gogins
To: "Matt J. Ingalls" , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Subject: Re: ircam
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>the only benefit i can see is IRCAM *supports* floating point..
>AIFF doesnt - AIFC does (but is not "official" - Madole/Erbe
>just "made it so") - and im not sure what the story is behind WAV floats
>(???)
I don't know the official story on WAV floats, but I do make my pieces in
WAV floats using Csound and Cool Edit Pro plays them just fine.
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 01:13:15 -0500
From: "Michael A. Thompson"
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Hi,
I have compiled Csound 3.842 for IRIX and the RAD audio card. The binary
is compiled -n32 as well.
Its has 8 channel output(both real-time and soundfile support) and 8
channel input (opcode called "ino") for real-time audio in. I dont know
if the input works. I dont have the resources to test it yet, plus
csounds speed might be an issue as well.
You can download it at:
http://people.unt.edu/~mat0001/download.html
Thanks,
Michael Thompson
--
----------------------------------
Michael A. Thompson
Unix SysAdmin.
[IRIX - NeXTStep - Linux]
University of North Texas
Center for Experimental Music and Intermedia
[C.E.M.I.]
Office: (940) 565-2382
E-Mail: mat0001@jove.acs.unt.edu
----------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:40:36 +0100
From: Ben Jefferys
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Subject: Re: IRCAM format
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Charles Baker wrote:
> Why the heck isn't there *more* emphasis on floating point in musical
> signal processing ? Makes all the difference
Of course it doesn't necessarily have to be floating point. I'd guess
a large part of the reason why floating point stuff is better is
because it uses more bits - typically 32/64/80 (in think they're
the standards). If you used 32 bit ints the quality would improve
by a similar amount to your standard C floats, although there would
be subtleties lost in quieter audio compared to using a float due to
the "logarithmic" nature of floating point. But the 16-24-32 bit
transition within the integer realm is very significant, and on
some processors integer performance is superior.
Bye!
Ben.
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:13:04 +0100
From: Richard Dobson
Organization: Composers Desktop project
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Subject: Re: ircam
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Both AIFF and WAV have always been able to support floating-point formats. CDP
has been doing this for years (We also 'made it so').In my copy of the AIFF
documentation V1.2, it is stated sxplicitly that the samplesize can be anything
from 1 to 32, so the only ambiguity is whether that could be a 32bit int - what
are people doing on the Mac these days?. With WAV, Microsoft recently published
a format tag for float soundfiles (WAVE_FORMAT_IEEE_FLOAT = 3), which can
officially be 32bit floats, or even 64bit doubles. Csound now includes support
for this. Whether anyone can play these is a moot point. Cool Edit Pro will
record and play the WAV 32bit float format ('type 3'), as, now, will CDP (wrote
'record' last week!). However, Microsoft's new all-singing version of Media
Player does not accept a type-3 file (until I or somebody writes an ActiveMovie
conversion filter)!
Of course the new kid on the block is CNMAT's SDIF format ( go to
http://cnmat.CNMAT.Berkeley.EDU/SDIF/ ), which I started looking at a while
back, but got distracted with other things. IRCAM are supporting this initiative
themselves. One snappy thing about this format is that everything is aligned on
64bit boundaries.
Richard Dobson
Matt J. Ingalls wrote:
>
> the only benefit i can see is IRCAM *supports* floating point..
> AIFF doesnt - AIFC does (but is not "official" - Madole/Erbe
> just "made it so") - and im not sure what the story is behind WAV floats
> (???)
>
> but at least on the mac end, the only apps i know of that use IRCAM are
> file converter ones...
>
> matt
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:17:29 +0100
From: Richard Dobson
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To: Michael Gogins
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Subject: Re: ircam
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There is a bug in CEP, wherein if you once record a float type 3 file, and
subsequenly record a normat 16bit file, CEP sets the format tag for the latter
as type 3, making the file unplayable outside CEP itself. The trick is to make a
new recording using one of CEP's other (very unofficial!) 32bit formats , which
sets the tag as 1 again.
Richard Dobson
Michael Gogins wrote:
>
> >the only benefit i can see is IRCAM *supports* floating point..
> >AIFF doesnt - AIFC does (but is not "official" - Madole/Erbe
> >just "made it so") - and im not sure what the story is behind WAV floats
> >(???)
>
> I don't know the official story on WAV floats, but I do make my pieces in
> WAV floats using Csound and Cool Edit Pro plays them just fine.
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 03:37:20 +0000
From: Charles Baker
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Ben Jefferys wrote:
> Charles Baker wrote:
>
> > Why the heck isn't there *more* emphasis on floating point in musical
> > signal processing ? Makes all the difference
>
> Of course it doesn't necessarily have to be floating point. I'd guess
> a large part of the reason why floating point stuff is better is
> because it uses more bits - typically 32/64/80 (in think they're
> the standards). If you used 32 bit ints the quality would improve
> by a similar amount to your standard C floats, although there would
> be subtleties lost in quieter audio compared to using a float due to
> the "logarithmic" nature of floating point.
Exactly: only floating point gives you full usage of word, no matterwhat
the absolute value of the sample:within limits, of course, but
*practically*
it gives better results ! Even if we're talking short floats, no longer
than the
int formats, the results are often quite noticably better: if only because
darn few
of us make sure that all samples input and output are scaled to use all of
the
word. And this brings up another advantage of F.P.: when int sounds are
used,
one has to be extremely careful in combining them, scaling the input
samples
to assure that you don't overflow. This is not a worry with float samples:
they can be combined freely & without concern over the absolute value of
the result,
and then scaled/converted into ints to play. CLM and jpff's WinCsound (for
example) both
provide this as a way to synthesize your sound, a way many experienced
composers
prefer. Try it , you'll like it!
As for the processor speed issue:I don't care if floating point is a bit
slower: "real-time" is not
particularly a big issue with me ( I am rather tired of simple synth
sounds, such as are used to give
polyphony in real-time on PCs). If making your pc act like a very poor
realtime synthesizer is your
raison d'etre, go to it. I'll go buy a much cheaper GM MIDI module for
that. I use csound for the
sounds you *don't* find on the GM modules, thank you.
> But the 16-24-32 bit
> transition within the integer realm is very significant, and on
> some processors integer performance is superior.
Well, if one is careful with normalization of sounds, and if you
carefully attend to scaling issues in
mixing, I agree larger int word sizes will produce better results. Too
many ifs there for me, and I
don't have the money right now to go buy a true 32-bit machine (hmmm...
what's the word on
DEC Alpha Csound? And is csound built in irix32? Anybody got ~$6k lying
around? )
> Bye!
> Ben
>
Fare thee well, Ben. Where are you going? I'm right here.....
Char lieB
--
*********************************************
Charlie Baker baker@charlieb.com
"Das Ewig-Weibliche Zieht uns hinan." -Goethe
*********************************************
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Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:51:17 -0400
To: "Matt J. Ingalls" , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: ircam
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At 3:56 PM -0400 8/4/98, Matt J. Ingalls wrote:
>but at least on the mac end, the only apps i know of that use IRCAM are
>file converter ones...
Soundhack and, of course, Audiosculpt.
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