I've been giving this matter of software synthesizer design some thought for
years, and have written several prototypes using Microsoft's MFC class
library, ANSI C++ with the Standard Template Library, and pure Java.

I don't think there's a single best answer, the but the ideas I keep coming
back to are (a) an efficient, public-domain version of the MPEG-4 Structured
Audio Orchestra Language, which is an updated, C syntax version of Csound's
orc language, the advantages being the same as for Csound, namely a world
standard, an interpreted language, and a deep library of patches, or (b)
something like Phil Burt's JSyn, but with runtime loading of unit generators
and runtime compilation of patches written in Java. The opcodes would be
fast because written in C, and the language for writing instruments would be
easy because it would just be Java.

By the way, once a Java audio processor opcode base class or interface was
designed and if it was similar enough to the Csound oentry structure, it
would be quite straightforward to import all Csound opcodes, more or less as
they stand, into this JSynth.



-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Dobson 
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk 
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: if...


One reason might be that Csound was designed to ~have~ an assembly-like
syntax, and if...then...else is not a cpu-level instruction.

You can get into all sorts of problems if you mix two syntax paradigms
in one language, bacause int would not be genuine C, but merely a
simulacrum - other legitimate C-style code such as

aout = balance(x,y,balance(f,g,h));

would not be possible, thought the syntax might suggest it is. In any
case, ~replacing~ existing Csound syntax with a different one will
simply break everybody's work, and is not an option. The only
hypothetical possibiity would be to allow both forms, and that would get
everything, and everyone, into an almighty muddle!

Also , there is the cultural question - why C? Why not Basic, Lisp,
Pascal, Forth,Occam...



Richard Dobson




Aaron Isaksen wrote:
>
> > I absolutely agree a "statement" block would help to make the code more
readable
> > and elegant. Too much goto´s are never advisable,
> > and it doesn´t look too serious really. It makes Csound code seem an
> > oldfashioned language ;-)
>
> Why not make the parser understand c-like syntax?
>
> aout = balance(x,y,z); // comment
>
> instead of assemblyesque
> aout    balance         x,y,z ; comment
>
> -Aaron

--
Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
CDP homepage: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm











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From: Eric Scheirer 
To: Michael Gogins , 
    Richard Dobson , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Michael Gogins wrote:

>I don't think there's a single best answer, 
>the but the ideas I keep coming
>back to are (a) an efficient, public-domain 
> version of the MPEG-4 Structured
>Audio Orchestra Language, which is an updated, 
>C syntax version of Csound's
>orc language, the advantages being the same as 
> for Csound, namely a world
>standard, an interpreted language, and a deep
> library of patches.

Just to clarify, all of the projects around SAOL
that I'm aware of (there's five or six now) are
public-domain.  There are no IP issues associated
with Structured Audio as there are with other MPEG
standards.  My implementation is public-domain;
I'd be happy to help others who want to work on making
it efficient.

The MPEG-4 standard is finished (as of Oct 1998), and
SAOL and the rest of Structured Audio is a key part.
Any full implementation of the MPEG-4 standard is 
required to include real-time synthesis using SAOL.

There's no requirement that SAOL be interpreted
as opposed to compiled.  My implementation happens
to be an interpreter, but as long as it makes the
right noises, you can do anything you want.  There's
compile-to-C, compile-to-DSP, and compile-to-Csound
projects all underway already.

For anyone who's interested, there's lots of technical
papers describing SAOL and the other MPEG-4 Structured
Audio tools at
   http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds/papers.html.

There's a free implementation and a free copy of a 
draft of the standard at 
   http://sound.media.mit.edu/mpeg4.

This site also has mailing lists you can join that 
support the nascent SAOL community.

Best to all,

 -- Eric

+-----------------+
|  Eric Scheirer  |A-7b5 D7b9|G-7 C7|Cb   C-7b5 F7#9|Bb  |B-7 E7|
|eds@media.mit.edu|      < http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds >
|  617 253 0112   |A A/G# F#-7 F#-/E|Eb-7b5 D7b5|Db|C7b5 B7b5|Bb|
+-----------------+












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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk, Hans Mikelson 
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of course hans, i'm dying to know which modular graphical software synths
you refer to. msp? DSpider? maybe even one heretofore unknown? (i pant).
tolve

hans mikelson wrote:
>I was thinking today about the modular graphical software synths I've used
>and thought that one problem with them is that you end up with all kinds of
>simple components on the screen.  What would be nice would be if you could
>hook up a group of components into a new user definable component, for
>example put a vdelay and an oscillator together and call it a flanger, or
>put a bunch of oscillators together and call it a hammond, create an icon
>for them, then use these newly created components to create something else.
>Maybe some software already does this?  Maybe this can be done with csound
>using Maldonado's subroutine code? (I haven't tried it.)
>
>Regards,
>Hans Mikelson













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of course hans, i'm dying to know which modular graphical software synths
you refer to. msp? DSpider? maybe even one heretofore unknown? (i pant).
tolve

hans mikelson wrote:
>I was thinking today about the modular graphical software synths I've used
>and thought that one problem with them is that you end up with all kinds of
>simple components on the screen.  What would be nice would be if you could
>hook up a group of components into a new user definable component, for
>example put a vdelay and an oscillator together and call it a flanger, or
>put a bunch of oscillators together and call it a hammond, create an icon
>for them, then use these newly created components to create something else.
>Maybe some software already does this?  Maybe this can be done with csound
>using Maldonado's subroutine code? (I haven't tried it.)
>
>Regards,
>Hans Mikelson













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always always keep backward compatiblity to the old style.
And there could be a utility that maps the c-syntax to the old syntax.


-Aaron

On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Terry Cast wrote:

> Well, one reason (maybe or maybe not the only reason, and maybe or maybe not a
> sufficient reason) is that those of us who don't know C would have to learn a whole
> new syntax.
> 
> Terry Cast
> 
> Aaron Isaksen wrote:
> 
> > Why not make the parser understand c-like syntax?
> >
> > aout = balance(x,y,z); // comment
> >
> > instead of assemblyesque
> > aout    balance         x,y,z ; comment
> >
> > -Aaron
> 











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Eric Scheirer wrote:

> The MPEG-4 standard is finished (as of Oct 1998), and
> SAOL and the rest of Structured Audio is a key part.
> Any full implementation of the MPEG-4 standard is
> required to include real-time synthesis using SAOL.

Are there any sound cards coming out that will have hardware
acceleration for running SAOL?  That would be pretty darned nifty, to
put it mildly.

Sean Costello










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> 
> 	aout = balance(x,y,balance(f,g,h));
> 
> would not be possible, thought the syntax might suggest it is

thats what type checking is for.

-Aaron












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>Are there any sound cards coming out that will have hardware
>acceleration for running SAOL?  That would be pretty darned nifty, to
>put it mildly.
>
>Sean Costello


I'm not aware of any companies that have allocated specific
resources to do this.  I have had enthusiastic discussion with
a number of prominent soundcard and DSP manufacturers.

Given the prevelence of MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 hardware decoding
solutions today, I think it's very likely that there will
be hardware accelerators for MPEG-4, including SAOL, within
two years.

Best,

 -- Eric

+-----------------+
|  Eric Scheirer  |A-7b5 D7b9|G-7 C7|Cb   C-7b5 F7#9|Bb  |B-7 E7|
|eds@media.mit.edu|      < http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds >
|  617 253 0112   |A A/G# F#-7 F#-/E|Eb-7b5 D7b5|Db|C7b5 B7b5|Bb|
+-----------------+












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On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Michael Gogins wrote:
> back to are (a) an efficient, public-domain version of the MPEG-4 Structured
> Audio Orchestra Language, which is an updated, C syntax version of Csound's

  i totally agree with you.  just think if all the timedeveloping
(fixing)Csound the past 4 or 5 years had been spent creating a new
SAOL-like version....

> something like Phil Burt's JSyn, but with runtime loading of unit generators
    
	(Phil Burk)

and i dont see any reason why a SAOL implementation couldnt be using
Phil's C library (perhaps he is doing this already..)

-matt











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jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
> 
>  >> mdelay
>  rasmus> From Maldonado, N/A in Bath version.
>
> Oh yes it is!

Yes, I noticed after posting. It just wasn't mentioned in the relevant
release notice (3.492). But since I had it from Gabriel's CsoundRT docs, 
it's in winhelp anyway. 
Documentation also attached below for all to see.
The midi mongers will like it (I would if I had something to output midi to).

>  >> pset
> 
> Sets parameters for an instrument, particularly when driven from a
> MIDI input or such.  It is in the MIT manual.

Not in the one I had, nor in any file I've found on Bath/Montreal servers. 
And not in the age-old postscript files at ftp://sound.media.mit.edu/pub/Csound

>  >> soundout 
> soundout is rather like soundin, writes samples to a file

not documented, but that could perhaps be changed.

>  >> convle
>  rasmus> Same as convolve. A misspelt entry 
>
> No it is a deliberate alternative /.../ Also see butterlp and butlp etc

oh.

>  >> mod mul [sub]
>  rasmus> don't know. But a mod-like operator % was introduced in Bath 3.50
> 
> These are the opcode versions of % and *.  [and -]
> One can do teh same with + and add of course

ok. good. Hitherto undocumented.

>  rasmus> hth,
> 
> That one I do not know!
> =John ff

Abbr: Hope This Helps. Usually capitalised. 
Perhaps it didn't, but at least it forced some clarifications...
Thanks,

	re


*********************************

MIDI delay - By Gabriel Maldonado (New in Csound 3.492)

	mdelay	kstatus, kchan, kdata1, kdata2, kdelay

A midi delay ugen.

PERFORMANCE

kstatus - status byte of midi message to be delayed
kchan - midi channel (1-16)
kdata1 - first midi data byte
kdata2 - second midi data byte
kdelay - delay time in seconds

Each time that kstatus is other than zero, this opcode outputs 
a midi message to the midi out port after kdelay seconds. 
This opcode is useful to implement midi delays. Several instances 
of this opcode can be present in the same instr with different 
argument values, so complex and colourful midi echoes can be 
implemented. Further, the delay time can be changed at k-rate.










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###  At 11:46 PM -0800 2/23/99, Dr J.Stevenson's research assistant wrote:
>Richard Dobson wrote:
>
>> Also , there is the cultural question - why C? Why not Basic, Lisp,
>> Pascal, Forth,Occam...
> I haven't yet seen the obvious ( semmantical ) reason yet!!
>its called CSound not (B)ASICsound (L)ispsound,... :)

The cultural answer is:
CSound is a port of Music 11 from PDP-11 assembly into the more-portable C
to allow it (Music 11) to be run on many different platforms.  The syntax
did not change significantly if at all...   Thus the "C" in "CSound" refers
to the programing language of the source that the binaries are compiled
from, not the "parentage" of the .orc/.sco syntax.

--
/----Charles D. Starrett-----\   "I do not feel that
|    / | ____ | |  ____  |   |    my research suffered unduly
|   /\ | |--  |-|   ___| |   |    from the fact that I enjoyed it."
|   |___ |____| |  |_____|   |   *Daniel Miller,
\--starrett@fas.harvard.edu--/    Modernity--an Ethnographic Approach












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Where is the MIT manual available? Or do you mean the one that is part of
the forthcoming book? Thanks.

-David.

jpff wrote: 
> Sets parameters for an instrument, particularly when driven from a
> MIDI input or such.  It is in teh MIT manual.










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Where is the MIT manual available? Or do you mean the one that is part of
the forthcoming book? Thanks.

-David.

jpff wrote: 
> Sets parameters for an instrument, particularly when driven from a
> MIDI input or such.  It is in teh MIT manual.










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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:00:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Karpen 
To: Charles Starrett 
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: if... [historical/cultural]
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Just to get the history a bit more accurate, Csound actually comes to us
via Barry Vercoe's Music-360 which was run on IBM mainframes (such as the
IBM-360, of course), which became Music-11 and then Csound. An interesting
feature of Music-360 for it's time was the ease with which one could add
ones own unit generators (written in FORTRAN) to use in Music-360
intruments. I found myself using Music-360 in Italy in the early 80's
after having used Music-11 in Brooklyn and wanted to be able to use
lpread/lpreson. I was able to add my own FORTRAN versions of this to
Music-360. And it wasn't necessary to recompile all of Music-360 before
running a job in order make subroutine calls on your own units. In
Music-11 one could't really add unit generators like that. In Csound, of
course, we can all add our own code.

Richard Karpen
On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Charles Starrett wrote:

> ###  At 11:46 PM -0800 2/23/99, Dr J.Stevenson's research assistant wrote:
> >Richard Dobson wrote:
> >
> >> Also , there is the cultural question - why C? Why not Basic, Lisp,
> >> Pascal, Forth,Occam...
> > I haven't yet seen the obvious ( semmantical ) reason yet!!
> >its called CSound not (B)ASICsound (L)ispsound,... :)
> 
> The cultural answer is:
> CSound is a port of Music 11 from PDP-11 assembly into the more-portable C
> to allow it (Music 11) to be run on many different platforms.  The syntax
> did not change significantly if at all...   Thus the "C" in "CSound" refers
> to the programing language of the source that the binaries are compiled
> from, not the "parentage" of the .orc/.sco syntax.
> 
> --
> /----Charles D. Starrett-----\   "I do not feel that
> |    / | ____ | |  ____  |   |    my research suffered unduly
> |   /\ | |--  |-|   ___| |   |    from the fact that I enjoyed it."
> |   |___ |____| |  |_____|   |   *Daniel Miller,
> \--starrett@fas.harvard.edu--/    Modernity--an Ethnographic Approach
> 
> 
> 











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If anyone already replied to this, I missed it...

this sounds like a basic granular synthesis technique, so some or all of
the grain/granule opcodes should be able to do it. The full
'pitch-synchronous granular synthesis' is a little more tricky, but
needed if you really want artefact-free time-stretching. Otherwise,
plain-vanilla granular timestretching can work pretty well; you usually
need to randomize the start times of the grains a little to reduce, if
not eliminate, phasing effects. Fof is itself a particular species of
granular synthesis, but I don't think the opcode lends itself so well to
what you want to do; it synthesizes the grains rather than reading them
from a table.

Richard Dobson



Sean Costello wrote:
> 
> Hi Csounders:
> 
> I have a certain synthesis technique I would like to perform, but I am
> not sure of the best way to do it.  What I would like to do is take a
> single one-cycle sample of a vocal sound, and trigger that sample at a
> certain rate.  The sample should not change pitch or duration as it is
> triggered - for triggering rates below the frequency of the original
> sample, there should be gaps between the triggered samples, while for
> triggering rates above the frequency of the original sample, the samples
> should overlap.
> 
> How would I do this in Csound?  Obviously, simply loading the sound into
> a table and using oscili or a phasor/tablei combination will not yield
> the desired effect (this would change the pitch of the sample).
> Convolving the sample with a pulse train would work, but would probably
> take forever to compute.  Can any of the fof routines do this (i.e.
> trigger a sample once, with the triggering controlled at an audio rate,
> as opposed to cycling through the sample table and enveloping the
> result)? Are there other techniques I am overlooking?
> 

-- 
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http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
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From: Richard Karpen 
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The fof unit does allow one to read samples via Gen01 and for what you're
describing Sean, I think you could give fof a try (there's also a fof2).
By rigging the freq of the grain to be sr/table_len (like for sampling)
and making the frequency at which new grains are initiated as often or
seldom as you want, you can might be able to get a flavor of what you're
suggesting you'd like to do. Maybe!

RK


On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Richard Dobson wrote:

> If anyone already replied to this, I missed it...
> 
> this sounds like a basic granular synthesis technique, so some or all of
> the grain/granule opcodes should be able to do it. The full
> 'pitch-synchronous granular synthesis' is a little more tricky, but
> needed if you really want artefact-free time-stretching. Otherwise,
> plain-vanilla granular timestretching can work pretty well; you usually
> need to randomize the start times of the grains a little to reduce, if
> not eliminate, phasing effects. Fof is itself a particular species of
> granular synthesis, but I don't think the opcode lends itself so well to
> what you want to do; it synthesizes the grains rather than reading them
> from a table.
> 
> Richard Dobson
> 
> 
> 
> Sean Costello wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Csounders:
> > 
> > I have a certain synthesis technique I would like to perform, but I am
> > not sure of the best way to do it.  What I would like to do is take a
> > single one-cycle sample of a vocal sound, and trigger that sample at a
> > certain rate.  The sample should not change pitch or duration as it is
> > triggered - for triggering rates below the frequency of the original
> > sample, there should be gaps between the triggered samples, while for
> > triggering rates above the frequency of the original sample, the samples
> > should overlap.
> > 
> > How would I do this in Csound?  Obviously, simply loading the sound into
> > a table and using oscili or a phasor/tablei combination will not yield
> > the desired effect (this would change the pitch of the sample).
> > Convolving the sample with a pulse train would work, but would probably
> > take forever to compute.  Can any of the fof routines do this (i.e.
> > trigger a sample once, with the triggering controlled at an audio rate,
> > as opposed to cycling through the sample table and enveloping the
> > result)? Are there other techniques I am overlooking?
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
> http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
> CDP homepage: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm
> 











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From: Richard Dobson 
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Not only type checking, but init-pass stuff, expression parsing, the
problem of paired opcodes such as delay,  maybe also local variables 
and garbage collection, error-reporting... - all the paraphernalia of a
higher-level language...

Richard Dobson

Aaron Isaksen wrote:
> 
> >
> >       aout = balance(x,y,balance(f,g,h));
> >
> > would not be possible, thought the syntax might suggest it is
> 
> thats what type checking is for.
> 
> -Aaron

-- 
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:47:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Aaron Isaksen 
To: Josep M Comajuncosas 
cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: if statement blocks
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> Enough theory by now...Look at this example:

> if (...)  then do (...)
>     else if (...) then do (...)
>     else do (...)

I think that matlab style if statements are more applicable to the CSound
syntax:

if expression
  statements
elseif expression
  statements
else expression
  statements
end

That could probably be done with macros.

This uses the one-line-per-functional-statement semantics of Csound, and
reduces the number of keywords (don't need the 'do' statement and added
blocking necessary to do more than one statement inside a do block).

-Aaron













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Date: 24 Feb 99 21:30:49 America/Fort_Wayne
From: Robert Junior Mcnulty 
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Winhlp file
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Try as hard as I might, I can't download this file for my Winsound program.
What can I do to get this file? It it the winhelp for Csound 3.52.
Later
Bobby
AKA Sherlock
AKA The Nerd
AKA Baron


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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:36:11 -0500
From: jim altieri 
Subject: core dumping and page faulting
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hi everybody,
  i'm pretty new to csound, so i might be missing something very obvious,
but be gentle, my intentions are good.  i'm working on this piece, fairly
simple, just playing sound files at various times.  the only problem is,
when it gets to the first instrument allocation, it dumps core in linux and
causes a page fault in windoze95.  here's my orc file and an example of a
line out of my sco file...


;beginning of orchestra file
srD100
krD1
ksmps0
nchnls=2

instr 1
  kpan          line        (p6/100)*10000, p3, (p7/100)*10000
  asig1,asig2   soundin     p5
                outs        asig1*p4*kpan, asig2*p5*(1-kpan)
endin
;end of orchestra file

;line from score file
i1 19.105350 4.066000 75 "track27.aif" 29 6



what's making this crash my machine?
thanx for your time.

-jim altieri


________________________________________________

join the effort.
http://www.distributed.net


jim.altieri@oberlin.edu
http://www.oberlin.edu/~jaltieri
ocmr 76
oberlin, oh 44074
(440) 775-6243











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From: jim altieri 
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ok, i fixed an obvious problem in my orc that i initially missed, but that
didn't keep it from screwing my machine again.

;beginning of orchestra file
srD100
krD1
ksmps0
nchnls=2

instr 1
  kpan          line        (p6/100)*10000, p3, (p7/100)*10000
  asig1,asig2   soundin     p5
                outs        asig1*(p4/100)*kpan, asig2*(p4/100)*(1-kpan)
endin
;end of orchestra file

;line from score file
;p4=vol p5=soundfile p6&p7=panning info
i1 19.105350 4.066000 75 "track27.aif" 29 6


sorry for the double post.
-jim


________________________________________________

join the effort.
http://www.distributed.net


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http://www.oberlin.edu/~jaltieri
ocmr 76
oberlin, oh 44074
(440) 775-6243











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Hi,
I wonder if anyone has tried to use Csound both as an algorithmic
environtment generating MIDI events and as a synthesiser getting those
events and using them in MIDIfied instruments, *at the same time*. I´m
afraid one may need some kind of internal router of the MIDI data just
like Hubi´s Loopback, otherwise running two Csound instances in the same
or different computers (linked by MIDI cables or maybe via an Ethernet +
a MIDI to Ethernet software).
Nice features regarding MIDI implementation:
the ability to save MIDI files
the ability to send MIDI events to Csound itself (to other instruments
for example).
Lots of strange possibilities!












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From: pete moss 
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To: jim altieri , csound 
Subject: Re: core dumping and page faulting
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well, just glancing at it, you use p5 as the input for soundin and also as a
multiplier for channel 2 of your outs statement.  since p5 is a string, i will
bet that csound is having problems multiplying a number by a string.  there
could be other problems but that one caught my eye.

pete



jim altieri wrote:

> hi everybody,
>   i'm pretty new to csound, so i might be missing something very obvious,
> but be gentle, my intentions are good.  i'm working on this piece, fairly
> simple, just playing sound files at various times.  the only problem is,
> when it gets to the first instrument allocation, it dumps core in linux and
> causes a page fault in windoze95.  here's my orc file and an example of a
> line out of my sco file...
>
> ;beginning of orchestra file
> srD100
> krD1
> ksmps0
> nchnls=2
>
> instr 1
>   kpan          line        (p6/100)*10000, p3, (p7/100)*10000
>   asig1,asig2   soundin     p5
>                 outs        asig1*p4*kpan, asig2*p5*(1-kpan)
> endin
> ;end of orchestra file
>
> ;line from score file
> i1 19.105350 4.066000 75 "track27.aif" 29 6
>
> what's making this crash my machine?
> thanx for your time.
>
> -jim altieri
>
> ________________________________________________
>
> join the effort.
> http://www.distributed.net
>
> jim.altieri@oberlin.edu
> http://www.oberlin.edu/~jaltieri
> ocmr 76
> oberlin, oh 44074
> (440) 775-6243











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The issue for me here is runtime compilation, which is essential if the
synthesizer is to be something usable for serious composition and
experimentation. Canned patches are never really enough,and a pure
interpreter (which is what SAOLC, the reference implementation, is) is too
slow. That's what Csound is, and one of the reasons we use it: it's a
runtime compiler, a true compiler, not an interpreter. (I'm willing to bet
that's also why the syntax is so simple-minded: that made it easier by far
to write the compiler.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt J. Ingalls 
To: Michael Gogins 
Cc: Richard Dobson ; csound@maths.ex.ac.uk

Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: if...


>On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Michael Gogins wrote:
>> back to are (a) an efficient, public-domain version of the MPEG-4
Structured
>> Audio Orchestra Language, which is an updated, C syntax version of
Csound's
>
>  i totally agree with you.  just think if all the timedeveloping
>(fixing)Csound the past 4 or 5 years had been spent creating a new
>SAOL-like version....
>
>> something like Phil Burt's JSyn, but with runtime loading of unit
generators
>
> (Phil Burk)
>
>and i dont see any reason why a SAOL implementation couldnt be using
>Phil's C library (perhaps he is doing this already..)
>
>-matt
>











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Is this the same device that was pioneered by Jeff Beck and later done to
death by Peter Frampton?

bob douglas

> Hans Mikelson wrote:
(....
> Don't confuse the talk-box with a vocoder which is another beast entirely.
> The "talk-box" sound of the "Beastie Boys" is not your typical talk-box or
> vocoder sound.  It is quite distinctive.
...)










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Oh, I'd forgotten about fof2 and fog; but the docs imply that ifna is
strictly for the sine table in fof itself, which is how I remembered it
from the old days (and presumably one reason for introducing fof2 etc in
the first place). Perhaps fof2 would also be faster for this task?

Richard Dobson  

Richard Karpen wrote:
> 
> The fof unit does allow one to read samples via Gen01 and for what you're
> describing Sean, I think you could give fof a try (there's also a fof2).
> By rigging the freq of the grain to be sr/table_len (like for sampling)
> and making the frequency at which new grains are initiated as often or
> seldom as you want, you can might be able to get a flavor of what you're
> suggesting you'd like to do. Maybe!
> 
> RK
> 


-- 
Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
CDP homepage: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm










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Bob Douglas asks:
>
> Is this the same device that was pioneered by Jeff Beck and later done
to
> death by Peter Frampton?
Well, AFAIK,
That effect used a small monitor speaker, in an enclosed space that
ended with
a tube that was placed inn the mouth: like the mouth-bows of Africa, it
used
the resonance of the mouth cavity itself to filter the source.

The B-B's talkbox, again, seems different. But there are many settings
to
the various emulations of the old "Vocoder", and their's might be one.
The overall effect is *usually* generated by measuring energy in several

freq. bands, and using subtractive methods ('filters') to match source's

"spectral envelope" on new sound source. or something like this?  I have
heard
this done with fancy bp-filters, even with FFT techniques. (See CLM
distribution)
Does anyone know of alternative approaches? (Obviously LPC uses a single

multi zero(in analysis)/pole(in synthesis) filter: this is adjusted for
maximal
energy capture as all-zero, then the all-pole conjugate is used to apply
the
captured spectral envelope to new source: *not* the same as the
multi-*channel*
approach, at all.....)

any input?
charlieb



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>              
> Is this the same device that was pioneered by Jeff Beck and later done to
> death by Peter Frampton?

That effect used a small monitor speaker, in an enclosed space that ended with
a tube that was placed inn the mouth: like the mouth-bows ofAfrica, it used
the resonance of the mouth cavity itself to filter the source.

The B-B's talkbox again, seems different. But there are many settings to
the various emulations of the old "Vocoder", and their's might be one.
The overall effect is *usually* generated by measuring energy in several 
freq. bands, and using subtractive methods ('filters') to match source's
"spectral envelope" on new sound source. or something like this?  I have heard   s
this done with fancy bp-filters, even with FFT techniques. (See CLM distribution)
Does anyone know of alternative approaches? (Obviously LPC uses a single 
multi zero(in analysis)/pole(in synthesis) filter: this is adjusted for maximal
energy capture as all-zero, then the all-pole conjugate is used to apply the
captured spectral envelope to new source: *not* the same as the multi-*channel*
approach, at all.....)

any input?         
charlieb


--------------1A8A18DEA2123450A617D2B4--











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From: Hans Mikelson 
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Tolve wrote:

>of course hans, i'm dying to know which modular graphical software synths
>you refer to. msp? DSpider? maybe even one heretofore unknown? (i pant).


Actually I have rarely used them in the past two years so I am not very up
to date.

Hans Mikelson











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Robert Junior Mcnulty wrote:
> 
> Try as hard as I might, I can't download this file for my Winsound program.

You're right, the bath /newest link seems not to work.
And the mitpress frontpage has a faulty link to my page.
It's at http://hem.passagen.se/rasmuse/Csound.htm 
Might also be in the csound_win.zip at Bath.

	re










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I think it would be useful to think about the purpose of adding if-then
statements.  I don't particularly like nested if-then-else statements,
because it may be hard to follow the logic behind the conditions
sometimes.  I have seen extremely messy C-code or LISP or PROLOG code
for that matter, so elegance is not really in the kind of language you
use but how you use it.  Reading pages and pages of code is never fun
and in the case of Csound it is a textual representation of something
that should be represented as a diagram.  That is why I think something
like Visual Orchestra is useful.  If we need more elaborate ways to
control the flow of things we should think about a method to represent
that graphically rather then burdening the language with additional
constructs.

Job van Zuijlen










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It may be funny, but I don't really like Java and I wouldn't like it to
replace the current Csound syntax.  I like to hack and experiment, for
instance, and I had a hard time with Java in that respect, as opposed to
working with Tk/Tcl, Perl or other scripting languages.

Job van Zuijlen  

Michael Gogins wrote:
> 
[snip]
> The opcodes would be
> fast because written in C, and the language for writing instruments would be
> easy because it would just be Java.
> 
>










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Hi there,

I've been asked for this a few times.  These are almost all of the orc's &
sco's currently on my hard disk.  Hopefully I did not include too many of
other peoples stuff in here.  Much of this is not well commented and some of
them may not work at all.  Others will require you to supply soundin files.

http://www.werewolf.net/~hljmm/csound/mikelson.zip

Oh, its 471K zipped, and that's almost all orcs & scos.  :)  Now I wish I
hadn't lost all those others in a system upgrade...  :P

Good luck and have fun,
Hans Mikelson

PS. I probably won't leave them up too long due to space limitations.  Maybe
John Fitch could put them on the dream site?











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From: Larry Troxler 
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C'mon, guys, quit arguing for a radical change in syntax. Csound is
csound. There are plenty of other options available if you want a more
modern synthesis environment.

Csound is after all, the evolution of the very ancient MUSIC xx
packages, and I beleive that although it is current written in C, it was
at one point translated from assembler. 

I can't help thinking, that if you are looking to redefine the orch
language, than why bother keeping the Csound engine at all? With all the
work you would have to go through to do this, you might as well use a
different synth engine, one that would be much faster than the Csound
approach.

Remember folks, the Csound orchestra isn't even compiled to either
machine code or C code, it is essentially put into a linked list of
pre-compiled functions that is traversed at run-time. Hence, it's
probably similar to a byte-code compiler in terms of performance. And on
top of that, there's the K-rate problem - for many things you need
k-rate = a-rate, but if you do that, you still have the overhead of
calling all those unit generator functions that will in turn set up
their k-rate loops, which, for all that overhead, you will make only
*one* pass through.

Oops, I was starting to rant there, wasn't I? Sorry. But the point is,
Csound is Csound. It isn't particularly efficient, it's syntax is
ancient, it's source code is spaghetti. So, sure you can start rewriting
the parser, but if you're going to go through all that trouble, wouldn't
it be better to explore other packages?

Of course, the one advantage Csound has at the moment (and this counts
for a lot!), is that however antique it is, it seems to have built a
critical mass, and has by far the largest unit-generator collection than
is available for, say, Common Lisp Music, or Perry Cook's toolkit. So
much so that I've been thinking of loading the Csound syntax back into
my Common Music image :-)
 
Larry

     
--  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --











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From: Michael Gogins 
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When you were trying to hack with Java, did you use it in an integrated
development environment or from the command line with makefiles and such? An
IDE makes it much easier to play with. I have used Tcl/Tk and Java (not to
mention C, C++ with and without COM, ksh, csh, Logo, BASIC, QuickBASIC,
Visual Basic all versions, FORTRAN, Mathematica, and Pascal) and I find Java
with IDE the easiest of the lot both as a general purpose programming
language and as a quick hacking/scripting language, and the best of the lot
except that it doesn't run as fast as C and compiled kin.

-----Original Message-----
From: Job M. van Zuijlen 
To: Csound List 
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: if...


>It may be funny, but I don't really like Java and I wouldn't like it to
>replace the current Csound syntax.  I like to hack and experiment, for
>instance, and I had a hard time with Java in that respect, as opposed to
>working with Tk/Tcl, Perl or other scripting languages.
>
>Job van Zuijlen
>
>Michael Gogins wrote:
>>
>[snip]
>> The opcodes would be
>> fast because written in C, and the language for writing instruments would
be
>> easy because it would just be Java.
>>
>>











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Why do I use Csound? I could write a software synthesizer myself, or I'd be
willing to pay up to several thousand dollars for a software synthesizer.

I use it because I'd rather compose than program, and Csound can make cool
sounds as it is; as long as I'm doing algorithmic synthesis and composition
in the first place, it's got the most sounds and the largest community of
users and the biggest library of patches.

And in fact it's not inefficient.

Earlier I said I dream about (a) fast SAOLC or (b) something like JSyn only
with plugin opcodes. To this I would add (c) a reworked Csound with:

All platform-specific code isolated in plugin inputs and outputs, i.e. the
Csound "engine" is plain simple ANSI C that is EXACTLY the same on all
platforms as near as that is possible.

Plugin opcodes and GENs.

A Java interface.

Some fairly drastic spaghetti reduction.

A better time/frequency analysis/resynthesis facility, along the lines of
Lemur or SMS orSoundHack.

The same old command options, orc language, sco language, and file formats
so that the library just keeps on getting bigger and better.

Open Source/CVS build model.


-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Troxler 
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk 
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 11:24 PM
Subject: Enough with the "if" argument - Csound is *supposed* to be ancient!


>C'mon, guys, quit arguing for a radical change in syntax. Csound is
>csound. There are plenty of other options available if you want a more
>modern synthesis environment.
>
>Csound is after all, the evolution of the very ancient MUSIC xx
>packages, and I beleive that although it is current written in C, it was
>at one point translated from assembler.
>
>I can't help thinking, that if you are looking to redefine the orch
>language, than why bother keeping the Csound engine at all? With all the
>work you would have to go through to do this, you might as well use a
>different synth engine, one that would be much faster than the Csound
>approach.
>
>Remember folks, the Csound orchestra isn't even compiled to either
>machine code or C code, it is essentially put into a linked list of
>pre-compiled functions that is traversed at run-time. Hence, it's
>probably similar to a byte-code compiler in terms of performance. And on
>top of that, there's the K-rate problem - for many things you need
>k-rate = a-rate, but if you do that, you still have the overhead of
>calling all those unit generator functions that will in turn set up
>their k-rate loops, which, for all that overhead, you will make only
>*one* pass through.
>
>Oops, I was starting to rant there, wasn't I? Sorry. But the point is,
>Csound is Csound. It isn't particularly efficient, it's syntax is
>ancient, it's source code is spaghetti. So, sure you can start rewriting
>the parser, but if you're going to go through all that trouble, wouldn't
>it be better to explore other packages?
>
>Of course, the one advantage Csound has at the moment (and this counts
>for a lot!), is that however antique it is, it seems to have built a
>critical mass, and has by far the largest unit-generator collection than
>is available for, say, Common Lisp Music, or Perry Cook's toolkit. So
>much so that I've been thinking of loading the Csound syntax back into
>my Common Music image :-)
>
>Larry
>
>
>--  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --
>











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Michael Gogins wrote:
> 
> Why do I use Csound? I could write a software synthesizer myself, or I'd be
> willing to pay up to several thousand dollars for a software synthesizer.
> 
> I use it because I'd rather compose than program, and Csound can make cool
> sounds as it is; as long as I'm doing algorithmic synthesis and composition
> in the first place, it's got the most sounds and the largest community of
> users and the biggest library of patches.
> 

Yup, I hear you! Csound, by luck of the draw, got that critical mass
going.
At least it appears that way, judging purely based on the volume of mail
on the Csound list as compared with the mail for other synthesis
programs.
 
> And in fact it's not inefficient.
> 
> Earlier I said I dream about (a) fast SAOLC or (b) something like JSyn only
> with plugin opcodes. To this I would add (c) a reworked Csound with:
> 


Ok, maybe you missed my point, or maybe it's just too late in the night
for *me* to grok what you're saying. But when you talk about "plugin"
opcodes ...

All I was saying, is that Csound *interprets* the orch code, as opposed
to generating code which it then calls. The approach I'm talking about
would, I think, preclude the use of run-time-linked code, like "plugin
opcodes". Think of a C-compiler, which generates specific machine code.
Then think of the same thing, but compiling Csound orch code instead,
and then running it for a given score. The latter is closes to what
Common Lisp Music, for example, does. That's all I'm saying. I can't
believe that, for example, realizing a DX7 algo in csound, would be
anywhere near as fast as doing the same thing using CLM, which actually
generates C-code based on your instrument definition, then compiles it,
and calls it.
     
> 
> Open Source/CVS build model.
> 

Is Csound now public domain? The source code used to carry a copyright
notice, to the effect that distribution of derivative works were
prohibited without consent from MIT. Well, to be honest, I  *know* this
must have changed, but the version I downloaded from Bath just a couple
of years ago, *still* had this notice! What gives?
 
--  Larry Troxler --  lt@westnet.com  --  Patterson, NY USA  --











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Strings p-fields are not available yet in Csound score. So you get an error. Next version
of DirectCsound will implement this feature.

Gabriel

pete moss wrote:
> 
> well, just glancing at it, you use p5 as the input for soundin and also as a
> multiplier for channel 2 of your outs statement.  since p5 is a string, i will
> bet that csound is having problems multiplying a number by a string.  there
> could be other problems but that one caught my eye.
> 
> pete
> 
> jim altieri wrote:
> 
> > hi everybody,
> >   i'm pretty new to csound, so i might be missing something very obvious,
> > but be gentle, my intentions are good.  i'm working on this piece, fairly
> > simple, just playing sound files at various times.  the only problem is,
> > when it gets to the first instrument allocation, it dumps core in linux and
> > causes a page fault in windoze95.  here's my orc file and an example of a
> > line out of my sco file...
> >
> > ;beginning of orchestra file
> > srD100
> > krD1
> > ksmps0
> > nchnls=2
> >
> > instr 1
> >   kpan          line        (p6/100)*10000, p3, (p7/100)*10000
> >   asig1,asig2   soundin     p5
> >                 outs        asig1*p4*kpan, asig2*p5*(1-kpan)
> > endin
> > ;end of orchestra file
> >
> > ;line from score file
> > i1 19.105350 4.066000 75 "track27.aif" 29 6
> >
> > what's making this crash my machine?
> > thanx for your time.
> >
> > -jim altieri
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> >
> > join the effort.
> > http://www.distributed.net
> >
> > jim.altieri@oberlin.edu
> > http://www.oberlin.edu/~jaltieri
> > ocmr 76
> > oberlin, oh 44074
> > (440) 775-6243

-- 
Gabriel Maldonado

http://www.agora.stm.it/G.Maldonado/home2.htm










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To: Larry Troxler 
cc: Michael Gogins , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Enough with the "if" argument - Csound is *supposed* to be 
 ancient!
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:42:07 GMT."
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:23:13 -0800
From: Ed Hall 
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Larry Troxler wrote:

> All I was saying, is that Csound *interprets* the orch code, as opposed
> to generating code which it then calls. The approach I'm talking about
> would, I think, preclude the use of run-time-linked code, like "plugin
> opcodes".

Csound pre-processes the orchestra into linked lists of function calls.
The functions themselves are all compiled C.  The overhead isn't that
awfully high, especially if the K-rate is reasonable, reducing the
amount of time chasing from one link to the next by allowing each call
to process multiple samples.  In theory, this architecture should
make plugins simple to implement--just set the function pointer to
the dynamically-loaded plugin function.

> Think of a C-compiler, which generates specific machine code.
> Then think of the same thing, but compiling Csound orch code instead,
> and then running it for a given score. The latter is closes to what
> Common Lisp Music, for example, does.

There's certainly no reason why this sort of scheme couldn't call
a plugin--it wouldn't even need to be dynamically loaded.  Just
compile it (or an interface to it) along with the rest.

 That's all I'm saying. I can't
> believe that, for example, realizing a DX7 algo in csound, would be
> anywhere near as fast as doing the same thing using CLM, which actually
> generates C-code based on your instrument definition, then compiles it,
> and calls it.

Well, that likely depends upon the relative efficiency of the algorithms
used by each.  I doubt if either could come close to the performance
possible should someone write a DX7 emulator in, say, C...  There is a
price paid for generality, whatever the scheme used.

		-Ed

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Michael Gogins wrote:
> back to are (a) an efficient, public-domain version of the MPEG-4 Structured
> Audio Orchestra Language, which is an updated, C syntax version of Csound's

  i totally agree with you.  just think if all the timedeveloping
(fixing)Csound the past 4 or 5 years had been spent creating a new
SAOL-like version....

> something like Phil Burt's JSyn, but with runtime loading of unit generators
    
	(Phil Burk)

and i dont see any reason why a SAOL implementation couldnt be using
Phil's C library (perhaps he is doing this already..)

-matt