| Hello,
will it be possible to define GEN subroutines in the orchestra file? I create
the scores with a different programm (CM) and have to copy the GEN definitions
always.
Thanks
Torsten Anders
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From: J P Fitch
To: Torsten Anders
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Subject: Re: GEN in *.orc possible?
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Look at ftgen opcode. Does most cases
==John
D
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> Well, yes, it's CLM that spurred me to make my comment about how Csound
> doesn't truly *compile* the orchestra code. It seems like CLM, however,
> does in fact do this, int the sense that it outputs a C source file
> which codes the CLM instrument
yes. CLM takes the Lisp instrument definition and translates it to C
source code.
> So in a sense, unlike C-sound, it is really a compiler
No. it writes a C source file, then calls the C compiler. It's not a
compiler itself (although, historically, it used to compile to 65000
DSP code, but I think that's now completely abandoned as host
processors outperformed DSP's).
> The not-so-cool thing about CLM, of course, is that there is only a
> handfull of unit generators, compared to the immense richness of them
> that Csound has.
*WHAT*? Csound is a pathetic inflexible dinosaur when it comes to
unit gens. Yes, there are about 50, but face it, stuff like out, outa,
outb,... etc are really only one. CLM on the other hand has myriads of
functionally different unit generators as you can see its home page.
The funny thing about this debate is, though, that I personally quit
using CLM exactly because it does compile, inspite the fact that it
offers a vastly superior orchestra language and expressiveness. I
find myself re-writing and adjusting instruments all the time and can't
wait every time for the instrument to compile and re-link. It is
so annoying that I was willing to put up with Csound's pityful
stoneaged assembler language and meager expressiveness. Just think
about it: no useable if or even switch statements; horrible "goto"
instead; you can convert sound to "spectral" data types but can't get
it back; etc. Csound is horrible. The only real advantage it had to
me was that it did NOT compile! :) Running Csound with Cecelia does
actually make a quite useful combination, IMO.
-Tobias
______________________________________________________________________
Tobias Kunze tkunze@ccrma.stanford.edu
CCRMA, Stanford University http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/~tkunze
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Fay Weinstein wrote: nothing
I agree completely!
-- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA --
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Fay Weinstein wrote: nothing
I agree completely!
-- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA --
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Tobias Kunze wrote:
>
> > Well, yes, it's CLM that spurred me to make my comment about how Csound
> > doesn't truly *compile* the orchestra code. It seems like CLM, however,
> > does in fact do this, int the sense that it outputs a C source file
> > which codes the CLM instrument
>
> yes. CLM takes the Lisp instrument definition and translates it to C
> source code.
>
> > So in a sense, unlike C-sound, it is really a compiler
>
> No. it writes a C source file, then calls the C compiler. It's not a
> compiler itself (although, historically, it used to compile to 65000
> DSP code, but I think that's now completely abandoned as host
> processors outperformed DSP's).
>
Sorry, by "compiler" I meant something that generates code, not
necessarily machine code. So yes, I think that CLM can be considered to
compile its code into C. I didn't figure that the extra mechanical
detail of compiling the C into machine code disqualified CLM from being
a "compiler".
And to clarify what Csound is, I'm sorry if I said that it was an
interpreter, as someone said I did. Maybe I made reference to a
byte-code interpreter, in the sense that what csound generates as a
result of parsing the orch file might be loosely similar, in a way, to
byte-code, or p-code, in the sense that it is not code that can be
directly run, but needs to be run (interpreted) by some low-level
engine, which in this case traverses the linked-list of ugens, and calls
the ugen functions.
> > The not-so-cool thing about CLM, of course, is that there is only a
> > handfull of unit generators, compared to the immense richness of them
> > that Csound has.
>
> *WHAT*? Csound is a pathetic inflexible dinosaur when it comes to
> unit gens. Yes, there are about 50, but face it, stuff like out, outa,
> outb,... etc are really only one. CLM on the other hand has myriads of
> functionally different unit generators as you can see its home page.
>
Hmm, that wasn't my impression. I had the feeling that csound has a lot
more critical mass in terms of contributions.I was under the impression,
from reading this list, that people have written ugens like Moog-style
filters, voice-box simulators (whatever that is), etc.
Actually, maybe it's the complete instruments that Csound has more of -
I see all the time on this list, people posting instruments, and there
is at least one repository of Csound instruments, as opposed to none
that I know of for CLM.
Don't get me wrong, I would rather stick to CLM, because its a much
nicer development environment, and better integrated with Common Music
than Csound is, but it still seems to me that for someone who might want
to start with some sound and then tweak it, that Csound has a lot more
"ready to go" instruments already contributed.
> It is
> so annoying that I was willing to put up with Csound's pityful
> stoneaged assembler language and meager expressiveness.
I assume that you're using Common Music, since you contributed so much
to it. What about designing some kind of Lisp wrapper over the Csound
orch syntax?
Just think
> about it: no useable if or even switch statements; horrible "goto"
> instead; you can convert sound to "spectral" data types but can't get
> it back; etc. Csound is horrible. The only real advantage it had to
> me was that it did NOT compile! :) Running Csound with Cecelia does
> actually make a quite useful combination, IMO.
>
Well, yes, of course the syntax is horrible - Csound is really a
re-incarnation of the MUSIC IV (or whatever the roman-numeral version #
is supposed to be) language. It *is* antique. I think a lot of the new
users of Csound might not be well-versed in computer-music history, and
get miffed when this tool that they are using has a very archaic syntax.
I can't wonder how much of this is due to that article in Keyboard mag a
few years ago. IOW, I wonder that because Csound as of late, has been
rather publicised, probably not just in Keyboard but in Linux magazine,
etc, that new-comers looking for a powerfull software synthesis program
will kind of a assume that this is leading-edge stuff, and not realize
it is some hacked and re-hacked piece of code a few decades old.
> -Tobias
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> Tobias Kunze tkunze@ccrma.stanford.edu
> CCRMA, Stanford University http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/~tkunze
-- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA --
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To: Larry Troxler , csound
Subject: Re: if.../ Common Lisp Music / compilers / interpreters
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what article is this from keyboard? is it a positive or neg article? do you
know when it is from, i would like to look it up.
pete
> I can't wonder how much of this is due to that article in Keyboard mag a
> few years ago. IOW, I wonder that because Csound as of late, has been
> rather publicised, probably not just in Keyboard but in Linux magazine,
> etc, that new-comers looking for a powerfull software synthesis program
> will kind of a assume that this is leading-edge stuff, and not realize
> it is some hacked and re-hacked piece of code a few decades old.
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The trouble is that if we use the term 'compiler' too librerally, it
ends up meaning everything and nothing. In my mind, Csound is really a
scripting language. It doesn't 'compile into code', nor is it an
interpreter (there is no 'executable output'), it links
~already-compiled~ routines according to the users requirements. Output
is either a sounfile, or an audio stream. Even if we call Csound's
syntax 'assembler-like', there is still no machine-like code it compiles
into, as such, just linked lists of routines. Thus Csound was able to be
adapted to link SHARC dsp modules (pre-built), for XTCsound. Perhaps
this is a case where Csound ~is~ more of a compiler; though surely the
SHARC executable it produces requires a lot of support from the XTCsound
OS - and the ADI linker.
Conversely, I understand CLM to be (according to the given descriptions)
a language ~translator~ - it translates it's native language into C.
Presumably in the days when it produced 56K dsp code, it was linking
existing modules, rather than compiling directly into machine code.
If we call Csound ~or~ CLM 'compliers', then we really have to call web
browsers compilers too, simply because they take HTML and turn it into
pictures and text on a screen.
CLM looks like an attractive package; but it is from these descriptions
very much less self-sufficient than Csound. Nobody even needs to own a C
compiler to use Csound. For many users, that must be a major part of its
attraction, and hence its success. Composers can get into it step by
step, without having to have a full-scale computer-science-like
environment, with commandline c-compilers and the rest. If MIDI
sequencers depended on the availablility of a C compiler on everyone's
machine, I don't think they would be the commercial and musical
phenomenon they are!
Richard Dobson
--
Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
CDP homepage: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm
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Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:49:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Shamus McConney
To: David Boothe
cc: "Csound (E-mail)"
Subject: RE: hrtfer problem
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> Although I'm not intimately familiar with Mac, it sounds as if you've named
> the folder HRTFCompact. That should be the file name. The folder name should
> be whatever you have defined the analysis directory to be with SADIR.
The version collection I got from MIT's sight is actualy a collection of
14 folders containing 37 files each. I named the main folder HRTFcompact
and put it in the sadir. Dose any one have or know were to get a single
file version that works with csound?
>
> Shamus wrote:
> > INIT ERROR in instr 1: cannot load Sound Disk1:Desktop
> > Folder:csound/Cecilia Work:sadir:HRTFcompact
> > aLeft aRight hrtfer asig kaz kelev "HRTFcompact"
> >
> > I've downloaded the compact archive form MIT's sight, placed it in my
> > sadir, and named the folder "HRTFcompact".
Thanks,
Shamus McConney
mcconney@nwe.ufl.edu
http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~mcconney/
http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~mcconney/Pd+.html
|