Techno Bashing

Date	1999-06-19 14:05
From	Michael Rhoades
Subject	Techno Bashing
	Hi All, There was an artist that was a friend of Monet's who made these facinating drawings that were five to ten lines in black. They are amazing and captivating to view. It's not the complexity of a composition that determines it's worth. It's not the size of the wand, but the majic of the magician (musician) that counts. Beethoven's 5th, not overtly complex, a very simple theme. Yet who but Beethoven could have pulled it off? I like the comment someone made about not deciding the style of the piece from the beginning. When I compose, the music evolves almost of it's own volition. It dictates what happens next, how I will proceed with it. I believe it was Michelangelo when asked how he carved such amazing statues from a stone stated, I didn't carve the statue, I simply removed the stone that was keeping it from being seen. I enjoy, Future Sounds Of London, Aphex Twin, and Crystal Method as well as Subotnick, Stockhausen and Cage. Then throw in a dash of Zappa.... ; ) Michael Rhoades http://www.innerlightpub.com/rhoadsmith Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa14919; 19 Jun 99 15:24 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vM2z-0003v3-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:24:41 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (PAA02231); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:20:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:20:36 +0100 Received: from smtp4.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64] by hermes via ESMTP (PAA16475); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:20:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from Realizer (user-2ive2eh.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.9.209]) by smtp4.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA04700; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901beba5f$2912a5e0$79d496c0@Realizer.ngt.sungard.com> From: Michael Gogins To: zuijlen@ibm.net, Csound List MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos Subject: Re: re techno bashing Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:22:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I enjoyed and basically agree with the following response to my post. I'd like to expand on my point a bit anyway. The fact that musicians of the past lacked computers and electronics does not meet that they were shackled to foursquare meter and tonal scales by the limitations of their physiology. As I'm sure most performing musicians are quite aware when they envy their most stellar colleagues, a great musician has millisecond control of time and cent control of pitch. Nothing has prevented musical instrument builders of the past - whose efforts are among the finest achievements of human culture - from exploiting microtonality of complex rhythmic structures by purely mechanical means (Partch is an example of a direction that could have been taken). No, just as human languages all involve words and syllables in spite of the vastly wider range of possibilities afforded by the vocal tract, there is apparently some deep structure underlying human music production, a proto-grammar of meter and scale that can take a huge variety of forms without obscuring the intelligibility afforded by this underlying basis. I have no philosophical bias in favor of or against tradition, or meter, or electronics, or anything. I've worked hard all my life to become as objective as possible in music (I can hear the fireworks starting up in reponse to that one too...). But I rather expect that any future genre of music with any degree of popularity beyond its composers will have some form of, perhaps camouflaged, meter and scale. If not, then some other, perhaps until now only latent, proto-grammar will have been discovered. I might make a case that musique concrete and its formal derivatives (such as various quirky musical radio plays) are based on a "narrative" proto-grammar as opposed to the "dance" proto-grammar that I suspect underlies most music. To make my point blunter, I don't think people can grasp or reflect upon their experiences without some proto-grammar. -----Original Message----- From: Job M. van Zuijlen To: Csound List Date: Saturday, June 19, 1999 1:55 AM Subject: Re: re techno bashing >I'm always amazed how little leeway some people allow themselves or >others in music as opposed to other forms of art. I've found that my >music was often more welcome by visual artists and (modern) dancers than >by those involved in music. For those who would like to expand their >horizon a little bit, I can recommend "Silence" by John Cage. Listening >to non-western music (other than what is presented to us under the >terrible heading "World Music") may help too. I found the Folkway >record series very helpful at the time. > >The ear is more conservative than the eye, someone has remarked once; >there is somehow a need to preserve the tradition, whether in rituals or >in the concert hall of our time. There is reluctance for change, >because it will anger the gods or the audience. > >A composer of electro-acoustic or electronic music has the whole >universe before him or her. Other than a "traditional" composer, he/she >does not have to worry about performers, if they can be found at all. >For me this is one of the attractive aspects of creating music with >electronic means. I also like the combination with other art forms, >such as film or dance. In one project I composed music to accompany an >exhibition of paintings of a friend of mine. There are so many >interesting possibilities that, frankly, a pro or contra techno >discussion is kind of immaterial, but it may of course evoke some >interesting thoughts. > >I will admit here and now that I entered the Cherry Coke competition >last year, in which you were asked to create a techno composition using >a special (timed) version of Rebirth. I heard very late about it, but >sent my contribution anyway (about 30 minutes before the deadline) and, >I'm happy to report, I was selected as one of the 24 second prize >winners. For those interested, I'm listed as number 25 under Cherry >Coke Contest Winners on URL: > > http://www.propellerheads.se/songs/rb1015songs/pack4.htm > >In other words, it doesn't hurt to try something different now and >then. You will be called eclectic and frowned upon in some academic >circles, but who cares? > >Job van Zuijlen > >Michael Gogins wrote: >> >> It is a historical fact that most genres of music in all cultures have an >> identifiable, fairly regular meter, sometimes changing over time. It is >> equally a historical fact that most genres of music in all cultures have >> "scales" of repeated pitch-classes, usually no more than about 12. Surely >> this means something. These facts are a very, very narrow selection from the >> possibilities. >> Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa14925; 19 Jun 99 15:24 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vM3G-0003v5-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:24:58 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (PAA03312); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:21:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:21:17 +0100 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.212] by hermes via ESMTP (PAA05944); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:21:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from modem-47.cornucopia.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.148.175] helo=internetpc) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vLzn-0007z1-00 for csound@maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:21:24 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01beba5f$340d5120$af94883e@internetpc> From: richard To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos References: <002101beba54$758dd080$f19f2599@default> Subject: Re: Techno Bashing Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:22:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I like the bit about Michelangelo. I also understand that he carved the image from the front backwards ie. in a linear fashion, or something - like its emerging from a pool, yes? Michael Roades wrote: > Hi All, > > There was an artist that was a friend of Monet's who made these > facinating drawings that were five to ten lines in black. > They are amazing and captivating to view. It's not the complexity of a > composition that determines it's worth. It's not the size of the wand, but > the majic of the magician (musician) that counts. Beethoven's 5th, not > overtly complex, a very simple theme. Yet who but Beethoven could have > pulled it off? > I like the comment someone made about not deciding the style of the > piece from the beginning. When I compose, the music evolves almost of it's > own volition. It dictates what happens next, how I will proceed with it. I > believe it was Michelangelo when asked how he carved such amazing statues > from a stone stated, I didn't carve the statue, I simply removed the stone > that was keeping it from being seen. > I enjoy, Future Sounds Of London, Aphex Twin, and Crystal Method as well > as Subotnick, Stockhausen and Cage. Then throw in a dash of Zappa.... > ; ) Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa14936; 19 Jun 99 15:32 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vMAl-0003vG-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:32:43 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (PAA14972); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:29:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:28:52 +0100 Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.212] by hermes via ESMTP (PAA12816); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:28:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from modem-47.cornucopia.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.148.175] helo=internetpc) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vM78-0000gX-00 for csound@maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:28:59 +0100 Message-ID: <001f01beba60$43519780$af94883e@internetpc> From: richard bowers To: csound csound Subject: operations using spectral data types Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:30:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Can anyone give me some pointers for using the spectral operators within csound? My attempts (from a couple of years ago) failed. Any working score/orch combinations would be very welcome. If it helps I run the John Ffitch csound on a pc from the dos command line. Thanks. Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa14970; 19 Jun 99 16:02 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vMdG-0003ve-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:02:10 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (PAA02034); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:58:25 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:58:18 +0100 Received: from root@lix.intercom.es [194.179.21.2] by hermes via ESMTP (PAA09269); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:58:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from intercom.es (iv3-69.intercom.es [195.76.131.69]) by lix.intercom.es (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA00947; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:02:06 +0100 Message-ID: <376BAEA7.1297F000@intercom.es> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:52:23 +0200 From: Josep M Comajuncosas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MintMilano@aol.com CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: re techno bashing References: <14926450.249bd253@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id PAA09269 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk MintMilano@aol.com wrote: > I don't > believe it is possible to make a piece of music or sound without struct= ure, > because music exists in time, which is linear; therefore, when it is ov= er, > you can look back at whatever happened in a linear way, and there's you= r > structure. I particularly enjoy conceiving the inner structure of the whale singings= . We - listeners- create the structure. It sometimes matches the composer =B4s o= riginal structural conception, it sometimes not. Simplistic repetitive patterns a= re the worst thing we can do for our imagination and creativity, for our freedom= to create, this is totalitary music. I remember reading in a magazine that t= he chinese government was promoting (occidental) discos in Tibet. I perfectl= y understand why. > Humans are not hard-coded > machines that can only perceive sound driven by beats. Yep! -- Josep M Comajuncosas C/ Circumval.lacio 75 08790 Gelida - Penedes Catalunya - SPAIN home phone : 93 7792243 / 00 34 3 7792243 Csound page at http://members.tripod.com/csound/ Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa14976; 19 Jun 99 16:02 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vMdH-0003vg-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:02:11 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (PAA04311); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:58:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:58:36 +0100 Received: from root@lix.intercom.es [194.179.21.2] by hermes via ESMTP (PAA12278); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:58:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from intercom.es (iv3-69.intercom.es [195.76.131.69]) by lix.intercom.es (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA00919; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:01:58 +0100 Message-ID: <376BAD1F.FE19CAB3@intercom.es> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:45:52 +0200 From: Josep M Comajuncosas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Barrett CC: csoundlist Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems References: <002b01beb980$d3cccf40$7b00a8c0@taz.intouch.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id PAA12278 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Paul Barrett wrote: > You obviously have very little imagination if all you can think to do w= ith > pro-sequencers is to create standard techno ( which IS very dull music = ) or > plastified classical or jazz arrangements. Of course you can write a full Symphony as a Csound score, or a richly ev= olving texture tweaking with the NRPN=B4s of a GM bank... I just mean that seque= ncers work best with dance music, why not ... people like dancing/people hear d= ance music/people buy dance CD=B4s/composers want to make money writing dance = CD=B4s/ programmers want to sell their products... > So far I haven't produced anything much, but then > the same can be said for csound. It's not the tool you use, but how yo= u use > it. Yes that is the point. You don=B4t need to spend hundreds of $ with a pro= fessional sequencer to make good music. I agree. > Only those with no creativity produce boring music; and only those who > have no idea what they are talking about can say that all forms of tech= no > are the same to them. Techno is just like any other musical form > including classical, jazz, opera, country, anything you care to name )= - > MOST OF IT IS COMPLETE CRAP!!!!!!!!!! and then there is the good stuff. > All opera sounds the same to me ( and I hate the sound ) but I have fri= ends > who love it, and I respect that they see it in a different way to me; a= nd > most importantly, although I don't like it, I respect the creativity of > those who do it well, and I understand that it has musical worth. Hmm you simply cannot put at the same level say Wagner=B4s Tristan (or a = good Strauss vals, if you prefer popular genres) and the last CD of good dance= music. Particularly I enjoy hearing well produced goa-trance music, which is a b= it outdated nowadays, but of course this is ephimer music, it doesn=B4t last= for generations. And for me this is the real test of their quality. Anyway, t= ime will put things in their place (although lots of shit survive, the propor= tion tends to be more equilibrated).I of course respect the creativity of ever= yone, and their tastes. Also good music is good music and bad music is bad musi= c despite everyone=B4s tastes. You can call this elitism ... but good music= is nearly always elitist. And each music has its social role ... make people= dance, sell CD=B4s, or maybe even satisfy an interior creative force. I deeply respect electronic music in general and Csound in particular. I wouldn=B4t like it to become merely another softsynth or a plugin for com= mercial software. It has to be much more. As Csound is biased towards serious tim= bral research - and not much more honestly-, I see it naturaly linked to power= ful algorithmic composition packages to help in the elaboration of complex sc= ores for example. -- Josep M Comajuncosas C/ Circumval.lacio 75 08790 Gelida - Penedes Catalunya - SPAIN home phone : 93 7792243 / 00 34 3 7792243 Csound page at http://members.tripod.com/csound/ Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15003; 19 Jun 99 16:17 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vMrx-0000hq-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:17:21 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (QAA02194); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:13:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:13:28 +0100 Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.25] by hermes via ESMTP (QAA07629); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:13:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from modem-13.name1.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.160.13] helo=internetpc) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vMoI-0002Ho-00 for csound@maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:13:34 +0100 Message-ID: <000901beba66$7ddcb780$0da0883e@internetpc> From: richard bowers To: csound csound References: <002b01beb980$d3cccf40$7b00a8c0@taz.intouch.co.za> <376BAD1F.FE19CAB3@intercom.es> Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:14:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id QAA07629 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Has this gone off subject? Whatever. I have to take issue with the idea that sequencers are just beat-boxes. Logic Audio has a lot of functionality in the area of producing a kind of virtual instrument by letting you patch together faders, including a rath= er snazzy vector fader, and (midi) delay units so that you can play streams = of midi notes via a mouse to a sound module and/or to a midi file for furthe= r manipulation in csound. Incidentally, if anyone knows how to link up, in realtime, between Logic Audio and, say, the Direct Csound(?) version I would love to know. There exists the ability to using Directx plug-ins in Logic Audio. Richard. Paul Barrett wrote: > You obviously have very little imagination if all you can think to do w= ith > pro-sequencers is to create standard techno ( which IS very dull music = ) or > plastified classical or jazz arrangements. Of course you can write a full Symphony as a Csound score, or a richly evolving texture tweaking with the NRPN=B4s of a GM bank... I just mean that seque= ncers work best with dance music, why not ... people like dancing/people hear dance music/people buy dance CD=B4s/composers want to make money writing dance = CD=B4s/ programmers want to sell their products... > So far I haven't produced anything much, but then > the same can be said for csound. It's not the tool you use, but how yo= u use > it. Yes that is the point. You don=B4t need to spend hundreds of $ with a professional sequencer to make good music. I agree. > Only those with no creativity produce boring music; and only those who > have no idea what they are talking about can say that all forms of tech= no > are the same to them. Techno is just like any other musical form > including classical, jazz, opera, country, anything you care to name )= - > MOST OF IT IS COMPLETE CRAP!!!!!!!!!! and then there is the good stuff. > All opera sounds the same to me ( and I hate the sound ) but I have friends > who love it, and I respect that they see it in a different way to me; a= nd > most importantly, although I don't like it, I respect the creativity of > those who do it well, and I understand that it has musical worth. Hmm you simply cannot put at the same level say Wagner=B4s Tristan (or a = good Strauss vals, if you prefer popular genres) and the last CD of good dance music. Particularly I enjoy hearing well produced goa-trance music, which is a b= it outdated nowadays, but of course this is ephimer music, it doesn=B4t last= for generations. And for me this is the real test of their quality. Anyway, t= ime will put things in their place (although lots of shit survive, the proportion tends to be more equilibrated).I of course respect the creativity of everyone, and their tastes. Also good music is good music and bad music is bad musi= c despite everyone=B4s tastes. You can call this elitism ... but good music= is nearly always elitist. And each music has its social role ... make people dance, sell CD=B4s, or maybe even satisfy an interior creative force. I deeply respect electronic music in general and Csound in particular. I wouldn=B4t like it to become merely another softsynth or a plugin for commercial software. It has to be much more. As Csound is biased towards serious timbral research - and not much more honestly-, I see it naturaly linked to power= ful algorithmic composition packages to help in the elaboration of complex scores for example. -- Josep M Comajuncosas C/ Circumval.lacio 75 08790 Gelida - Penedes Catalunya - SPAIN home phone : 93 7792243 / 00 34 3 7792243 Csound page at http://members.tripod.com/csound/ Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15105; 19 Jun 99 17:47 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vOHL-0003wQ-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:47:39 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA04371); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:43:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:43:39 +0100 Received: from titan.mad.servicom.es [194.106.0.133] by hermes via ESMTP (RAA02095); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:43:38 +0100 (BST) Received: from [62.81.84.246] by titan.mad.servicom.es (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 158-43936U25000L25000S0) with ESMTP id AAF27889 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:43:43 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:03:03 +0100 Subject: SuperCollider From: Javier Ruiz To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990619164323.AAF27889@[62.81.84.246]> Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Well, there are a couple of features that James McCartney has not mentioned about his program. 1) It is amazingly fast, even in my old PowerMac (not G3). Maybe twice as MAX/MSP. 2) It uses in real-time all the physical outputs of any Digidesign or Korg hardware it finds (Audiomedia III, Protools, Korg 1212, Sonorus Studio/IO). This mean REAL multichannel real-time synthesis. P.S. Still saving money to buy SC. Sigh! -- Javier Ruiz, composer CANARY ISLANDS-SPAIN phone: 34 922 54 29 31 e-mail: javi.ruiz@tfn.servicom.es Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15216; 19 Jun 99 19:11 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vPao-0000jK-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:11:50 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA03875); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:08:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:07:51 +0100 Received: from relay.interim.iamworld.net [204.91.241.82] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA09381); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:07:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from isengardii (1Cust143.tnt1.natchez.ms.da.uu.net [63.11.131.143]) by relay.interim.iamworld.net (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08044 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901beba7e$ce1b64e0$8f830b3f@isengardii> From: Jim Smitherman To: Csound List Subject: 'engish' txt for csound dos Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:08:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I understand that the newest csound wants english.tx (or whatever) available, I have it in my csound bin dir, and it seems to me all my other environment vars are set correctly, yet I cannot use dos csound in any directory other than it's home directory, since it 'can't find db' whenever I invoke it (though, csound finds itself). must I copy this database.txt to each dir i wish to run on the dos level for? Surely not. What am I missing, please? I do my best to read the docs, but there are so many of them. I'm working at it, though. thanks, Jim Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15224; 19 Jun 99 19:14 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vPd3-0003xQ-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:14:09 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA08955); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:10:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:10:32 +0100 Received: from exim@mail.i-cue.co.za [196.15.227.12] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA04187); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:10:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from firewall.intouch.co.za ([196.15.227.9] helo=taz) by mail.i-cue.co.za with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 10vPZa-0003R2-00 for csound@maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:10:34 +0200 Message-ID: <003501beba87$79e7d3a0$7b00a8c0@taz.intouch.co.za> From: Paul Barrett To: csoundlist Subject: Musical Forms (was techno bashing) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:10:41 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Michael Rhoades : > There was an artist that was a friend of Monet's who made these >fascinating drawings that were five to ten lines in black. Can you give us his name and a reference to where we might find examples of his work? You have me intrigued. I am a reader of selected comics, and I enjoy minimalist art very much. There is so much that can be done with just a little. This has led me into an appreciation of minimalist music as well. There is a composer whose name I've forgotten ( I've asked the friend who played him to me to look for his tape and give me the details. I'll pass them on if anyone is interested, ) who made a piece of music that if I remember correctly is one piano, and only a few notes ( I think only 2 or 3, ) and goes for about 20 minutes, building up an amazing feeling if you sit there listening with your eyes closed. > I enjoy, Future Sounds Of London another interesting band - Lifeforms is not really a collection of "songs" - it's more like an abstracted film soundtrack, made with only an accompanying mental movie ( my thoughts, based on many listenings, and the movies I see in my own head sometimes.) >Then throw in a dash of Zappa.... Zappa made very varied very great music. It will live on beyond him. And he used drums. He used a beat. Michael Gogins : > No, just as human languages all involve words and syllables in >spite of the vastly wider range of possibilities afforded by the vocal >tract, there is apparently some deep structure underlying human >music production, a proto-grammar of meter and scale that can take >a huge variety of forms without obscuring the intelligibility afforded by >this underlying basis. humans like order. disorder is uncertain and scary. you have to take a chance with it. >I've worked hard all my life to become as objective as possible in >music (I can hear the fireworks starting up in reponse to that one too...). you sound objective to me. No one can be totally objective. A friend once told me that he didn't like something despite knowing as a musician that it was really good music. Taste comes into it. But an objective person will never allow their taste to override their ability to distinguish good from bad. >But I rather expect that any future genre of music with any degree of >popularity beyond its composers will have some form of, perhaps >camouflaged, meter and scale. how do we get more than a few people to try something different. Look at the movie industry in America. We're being flooded with largely rubbish, because the studios are afraid to take a chance. >If not, then some other, perhaps until now only latent, proto-grammar >will have been discovered. sounds like something csound may aid in. >To make my point blunter, I don't think people can grasp or reflect >upon their experiences without some proto-grammar. which is also what I meant about the need for a structure. formless is harder to understand. Josep M Comajuncosas : >I particularly enjoy conceiving the inner structure of the whale >singings. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. To me, whale singing has an amorphous quality, and this is the beauty of it to me; but one thing I have been reminded of by this discussion, is that we should keep an open mind. That means that I shouldn't assume that my views are correct in the face of any new evidence. If I'm wrong because of lack of or wrong information, then I must assimilate the new information and change my views. If we didn't do this, the world would still be flat. If you can show me a structure in whale singing, it will probably have a significant effect on what I may produce in my music. >I just mean that sequencers work best with dance music, reasoning? >composers want to make money writing dance CDs/ I don't give a damn about money myself. I earn more than enough to live comfortably on. I still want to write dance music ( as well as many other forms, anything I can. I would love to be able to say that I had created a new variation in music, or a completely different form.) Why do I want do write this stuff? Well, I go to raves, mostly trance, a little house, and I appreciate what really good dance music, mixed by a really good dj, can do to people. I have felt absolute euphoria at these parties, and time and time again I've done it without some drug making the euphoria for me. But it only happens when the music is really good. There's not enough good dance music. If I can, I'd like to be responsible for creating some. In no way do I want to restrict myself to this form. Should there be a separate list for this sort of discussion? Are we getting on anyone's nerves? I think that this is a good thing to be talking about. Bye Paul Barrett Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15273; 19 Jun 99 19:52 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vQE8-0000jr-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:52:28 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA08199); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:48:45 +0100 (BST) From: f1f0@m9ndfukc.com Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:48:34 +0100 Received: from saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA17569); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:48:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from [207.241.63.36] (poolf1-035.wwa.com [207.241.63.36]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA25944 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:48:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906191848.NAA25944@saba.wwa.com> X-Sender: f1f0@m9ndfukc.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:50:11 -0600 To: csoundlist Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >Hmm c+? >you simply cannot put at the same level say Wagner=B4s Tristan (or a good >Strauss vals, if you prefer popular genres) and the last CD of good dance >music. muz!k !=3D ecz!zt hensz ou!. !n akord w!th konztataz!on abov although strauss =3D !kk++ >Particularly I enjoy hearing well produced goa-trance music, which is a bit >outdated nowadays, !=3D akua!ntd w!th >but of course this is ephimer music, it doesn=B4t last for >generations. t!me !=3D ecz!zt >And for me this is the real test of their quality. kual!t! !=3D ov !mportansz >Anyway, time >will put things in their place t.m!e !=3D ecz!zt >(although lots of shit survive, ur vokab !=3D ecz!zt >(although lots of shit survive, humanz >real test "(although lots of shit survive" >shit survive, 2jourz >the proportion >tends to be more equilibrated). humanz >!=3D akua!ntd w!th 1 !llog!kl konztataz!on >I of course respect rezpekt =3D bas!s ov fasc!zm. raz!zm + amr.kan.!zm [kap!tal!zm] >the creativity of everyone, kreat!v!t! !=3D ecz!zt >and their tastes. guzt >Also good music is good music and bad music is bad music =3D dze zekuenz!al m9nd konta!nr d!ktat >Also good music is good music and bad music is bad music henr! po!ncare >despite everyone=B4s tastes. guzt >You can call this elitism ... prznl! =3D kall !t kret!n!zm >but good music is >nearly always elitist. wh!Ch =3D ar!vd 1zt good muz!k odr el!t!zm +? >And each music has its social role ... =3D dze zekuenz!al m9nd konta!nr d!ktat >make people dance, t!.me !=3D ecz!zt >sell CD=B4s, or maybe even satisfy an interior creative force. d!nam!kx relatd 2 rel!g!on >I deeply respect rezpekt =3D bas!z ov fasc!zm. raz!zm + amer!kan!zm [kap!tal!zm] >electronic music in general and Csound in particular. dze d!sazemblr =3D atemptz 2 eczplode >I >wouldn=B4t like it nor would you >to become merely another softsynth or a plugin for commercial >software. akadem!k kode =3D komerz!al kode fundd b! dze u.s. armd forsez >It has to be much more. nato >As Csound is biased towards serious timbral research plato >- and not much more honestly-, =3D would zm!le gentl! @ u >I see it naturaly linked to powerful packages >algorithmic composition packages to help in the elaboration of complex scor= es >for example. par eczampl "Singing in the Bath" +? >-- >Josep M Comajuncosas >C/ Circumval.lacio 75 08790 Gelida - Penedes >Catalunya - SPAIN >home phone : 93 7792243 / 00 34 3 7792243 au revo!r Josep M Comajuncosas l!f 4rm Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15310; 19 Jun 99 20:10 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vQVZ-0003yG-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:10:29 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA08227); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:06:44 +0100 (BST) From: f1f0@m9ndfukc.com Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:06:34 +0100 Received: from saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36] by hermes via ESMTP (UAA02346); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:06:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from [207.241.63.36] (poolf1-035.wwa.com [207.241.63.36]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA04767 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:06:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906191906.OAA04767@saba.wwa.com> X-Sender: f1f0@m9ndfukc.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:08:10 -0600 To: Csound List Subject: Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >From: Job M. van Zuijlen >>I'm always amazed how little leeway some people allow themselves or >>others in music as opposed to other forms of art. always how little leeway some allow themselves or others in life as opposed to other forms of muz!k != ecz!zt >I've found that my >>music muz!k != ecz!zt. propert! = theft >was often more welcome by visual artists and >and (modern) dancers all wh!ch = klass!kl = b! dzat ver! fakt modern >than >>by those involved in music. muz!k != ecz!zt >For those who would like to expand their >>horizon a little bit, du = shall ecz!zt 4 du = ecz!zt az du = ecz!zt >I can recommend "Silence" by John Cage. John Cage = 0+1 korporat fasc!zt mar!onet >A composer of electro-acoustic or electronic music has the whole >universe before him or her. 1nz thought paternz = 1 kapzul \|\| 1 job t!p job aua! 4rom 0+1 dez!ntegraz!on rout!n >has the whole >universe before him or her. aftr kopern!kuz = sh!ftd human k!nd off dze zntr ov dze f!z!kl un!verz deszkartez = f!ld dze vo!d !n 0+2 ztepz Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15338; 19 Jun 99 20:26 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vQlF-0000kA-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:26:41 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA01893); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:22:48 +0100 (BST) From: f1f0@m9ndfukc.com Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:22:38 +0100 Received: from saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36] by hermes via ESMTP (UAA09639); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:22:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from [207.241.63.36] (poolf1-035.wwa.com [207.241.63.36]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA12099 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:22:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906191922.OAA12099@saba.wwa.com> X-Sender: f1f0@m9ndfukc.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:24:14 -0600 To: csoundlist Subject: >>that he uses csound now. > >>:P --- users Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >>i am not a big fan of techno. >>in fact i think most of it is the >>unimaginative crap that several of you have spoken of. but you really >>should listen to aphex twin. this guy is a _genius_! i have even heard >>that he uses csound now. > >>:P > >Don't know about his use of csound, but I have to agree, the man is twisted, >but brilliant. If you like him, also check out Autechre (warp records). >and possibly Locust. - \| =cw4t7abs = zplend!d. vztrn l!f 4rmz du = zpeak ov abov = oke \| - \| l!ne of thought ----------\| = \| \| + \|___________ m0dule .dE. mEmo!r z!v!l!zaz!on.z mozt rezent burzt ov sc!ent!f!k progresz dze 0+1 wh!Ch = ztartd dur!ng dze rena!sansz = fazt aproach!ng !tz denouemnt data amountz eku!v 2 0+1 prznz l!f t!me eczper!ensez = ma! b donloadd !n m!n dze planet = d!zgorgez 0+1 tr!ll!on b!tez ov data ov data \ da!. !n odr verdz - \| =cw4t7abs = zplend!d. vztrn l!f 4rmz du = zpeak ov abov = oke we !n dze eazt = ur futur. futur ov 0+1 !nkompetent okz!dent -------------- 02 got your cd i love it sounds great genius )kix isn't the word( the best thing i've heard in a long time like the index numbering....../artwork, etc better than autechre and a lot of other stuff i've heard (chem bros, etc.) tho autechre is more "beat/pop" oriented --- - keyboard magazine - kr0p3r0m a9ff The CD player says there are 97 tracks on the disc, and your ears are assaulted by this fantastic variety of rude electronic noise, so you think at first maybe it's a sampling CD, but it's not. It's just part of the enigma promulgated by the band; from the sleeve, you'd think maybe their name is kontEnt:id !=, or maybe +/-hekx\|dAmage.gRi...D. I tried their web site (www.m9ndfuk.com ) hoping to elicit some hard facts, but the site is straight out of Count Zero; you can only experience it, not understand it. I finally got the band name from the record company site. About the record: Once in a while you have the hallucination ..... I thought I'd heard everything, but I've never heard anything like this. -Jim Aikin --- - ma! w!sh 2 aksez sin.x(2^n) == algebr!n kapzul++ Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15492; 19 Jun 99 22:35 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vSmD-0003zh-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:35:49 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (WAA17794); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:31:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:31:32 +0100 Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31] by hermes via ESMTP (WAA17543); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:31:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from Realizer (user-2ive1vt.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.7.253]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24000; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000e01beba9b$4ea3afc0$79d496c0@Realizer.ngt.sungard.com> From: Michael Gogins To: Josep M Comajuncosas , Paul Barrett Cc: csoundlist Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:32:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id WAA17543 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I quite enjoyed the thoughtfulness of this post as well. One of things I would like to say about my current pet, Buzz, the fancy patch-wiring, plugin-unit-generator tracker, is that it enables a certain degree of algorithmic composition for the composers of, among other things, Goa-trance. I've heard enough Buzz songs now to see that it's not limited= to techno or ambient. I'm going to try making some pieces myself. If I don't use too many samples, they'll be small enough to email, like Csound score= s. -----Original Message----- From: Josep M Comajuncosas To: Paul Barrett Cc: csoundlist Date: Saturday, June 19, 1999 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems Hmm you simply cannot put at the same level say Wagner=B4s Tristan (or a = good Strauss vals, if you prefer popular genres) and the last CD of good dance music. Particularly I enjoy hearing well produced goa-trance music, which is a b= it outdated nowadays.... [elision] As Csound is biased towards serious timbral research - and not much more honestly-, I see it naturaly linked to power= ful algorithmic composition packages to help in the elaboration of complex scores for example. Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15539; 19 Jun 99 23:08 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vTIH-0000lU-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:08:57 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (XAA10381); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:05:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:05:14 +0100 Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31] by hermes via ESMTP (XAA01178); Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:05:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from Realizer (user-2ive1vt.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.7.253]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA03056; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001d01bebaa0$07908cc0$79d496c0@Realizer.ngt.sungard.com> From: Michael Gogins To: Paul Barrett , csoundlist Subject: Re: Musical Forms (was techno bashing) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:06:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk First about this: >Should there be a separate list for this sort of discussion? Are we getting >on anyone's nerves? I think that this is a good thing to be talking about. I think this discussion is completely on-topic because it started when I reported on Buzz with regard to the future design of Csound. I want Csound to evolve into a sound processing language plugin for music production frameworks (it can do this without ceasing to be good old command-line Csound). I believe that I or someone else will be able to achieve this when VST release 2 with MIDI input is released. I have a reasonable amount of experience with musical instruments: I played the flute for years, I overdubbed synths to make songs, I've used general MIDI to make pieces, I've used old Moog style patchcord analogue modules (anyone ever use a Steiner synth?), I've used other synthesis languages (Cmix). Csound is all things considered the most flexible and powerful of the lot. Once it gets into the regular production software (I use Emagic Logic Audio Gold myself when I'm not writing algorithmic composition programs) it could go on and on and get better and better; otherwise it will soon become even more marginal than it is and something with more power will replace it. I believe the latest version of Emagic for Windows can use VST plugins. You can use VST plugins in Buzz via a VST effect machine. It's the closest thing to a universal plugin standard and if in future it can transmit note data then of course it becomes much more useful. Then I would like to zero in on something here because I think it is fundamental to why we talk past each other in these discussions. Order and disorder are extremely, even categorically, fundamental ideas. It recently has become clear that there is no simple polarity here. First, one can generate disorder using order and some quite simple shuffling operations (see chaotic dynamics). Second, within disorder there are many fine distinctions. To say that humans have a proto-grammar for meter and scale is not to say that, using this proto-grammar, it is not possible to produce music that would pass mathematical tests for randomness. But the reverse is not true, and this is the important point. In other words, order is more fundamental than disorder: using order one can generate disorder, but using disorder one cannot generate order. Once this is grasped some over-simple distinctions between simplicity and complexity in music can be gotten over. At the same time, the order that is capable of generating disorder has to involve an irrational number, a transcendental function, or a nonlinear operation somewhere... it can be quite simple like PI or the square root of a number.... I'm afraid we'll lose half the audience if we keep going this way, but the matter is quite important. The circle was for the ancients the symbol of perfect order and perfect simplicity, yet it contains implicitly pi, a non-repeating decimal.... the natural numbers also are a symbol of perfect order and perfect simplicity, but they cannot so easily be got to produce chaos. So the circle has, if you will, a higher order of order than the natural numbers. I suspect that the primitive elements of the proto-grammars that underlie human cognition have, if you will, an order of order like that of the circle. They can be got to produce a wonderful and mysterious chaos that is not actually random, but the folding of an implicate order. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Barrett >> No, just as human languages all involve words and syllables in >>spite of the vastly wider range of possibilities afforded by the vocal >>tract, there is apparently some deep structure underlying human >music >production, a proto-grammar of meter and scale that can take >a huge variety >of forms without obscuring the intelligibility afforded by >this underlying >basis. > >humans like order. disorder is uncertain and scary. you have to take a >chance with it. > Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15785; 20 Jun 99 2:34 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vWUy-0000pY-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 02:34:16 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (CAA15349); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 02:30:23 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 02:30:11 +0100 Received: from clavin.interaccess.com [207.70.126.132] by hermes via ESMTP (CAA04082); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 02:30:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from yang.interaccess.com (qmailr@yang.interaccess.com [207.208.45.70]) by clavin.interaccess.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA12432 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:30:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 966 invoked by uid 14466); 20 Jun 1999 01:30:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:30:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin Conder Reply-To: Kevin Conder To: Michael Gogins cc: csoundlist Subject: Re: [ot] Techno-bashing. (was: Csound and other synthesis systems) In-Reply-To: <002c01beb9f2$52c7c2c0$79d496c0@Realizer.ngt.sungard.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Michael Gogins wrote: > This piece is not by me, but it does have a beat and it is the best sounding > sample of this sort of thing that I have heard done with Csound. Since I > have just been listening to a lot of techno, hardcore, and ambient mods done > with Buzz, I have to say that the Csound version comes across as cleaner > sounding technically and artistically no worse than the lot, but not better > either. I wish I knew where I got this file or who Tobias is. Any clues? > > > > So if you are using CSound to create something better/ more > >creative than techno (and has a beat), I'd like to hear it. Could you > >point us to a URL of this better music? Thank you. Thanks also to the person who directed me to "rock10" by prent rodgers. I happily stand corrected. There are CSound compositions with a beat. (BTW: I meant a discernable rhythymic structure, didn't necessarily mean only a 4/4 time signature.) I would consider the Tobias piece to be "techno". Pretty good for the trance/ ambient style. ;-)= I don't think it is better than techno like some earlier posts suggested. (The poster doesn't suggest this either.) I'm still open to hearing this supposedly better music. I'll stick with Aphex Twin and DJ Shadow for now... I've read enough Marshall McLuhan to realize the medium is the message. Could someone in 1798 be able to create a true techno track? With CSound and other synthesis programs, it possible to create a new form of music. But those who criticize the current forms of music without giving tangible examples of new, better forms are being pedantic. Just my opinion. =================================================================== Kevin Conder, email: kconder@interaccess.com Web site: http://homepage.interaccess.com/~kconder Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15887; 20 Jun 99 3:28 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vXLP-0000px-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 03:28:27 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (DAA16168); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 03:24:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 03:24:01 +0100 Received: from root@smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96] by hermes via ESMTP (DAA10857); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 03:23:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from login (ip70.van12.pacifier.com [216.65.140.70]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA01062 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001401bed320$4b285060$468c41d8@pacifier.com> From: Mark Gay To: csoundlist References: Subject: How do I get a fly buzzing sound? Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:25:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hi, I've been trying to put together some instruments that duplicate the sound of buzzing insects. I'd like to get a fat house fly type of buzz as well as a more high pitched mousquito. I'm currently mostlly working with VAZ but I use Csound as well. Thanks --Mark Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16024; 20 Jun 99 4:56 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vYiH-00048c-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:56:09 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (EAA14021); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:52:33 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:52:10 +0100 Received: from mtv@hydra.U.Arizona.EDU [128.196.137.174] by hermes via ESMTP (EAA02503); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:52:07 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (mtv@localhost) by orion.U.Arizona.EDU (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA08874 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:52:12 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:52:12 -0700 (MST) From: Mark T Vigorito To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: [ot] Techno-bashing. (was: Csound and other synthesis systems) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Kevin Conder wrote: > [.....] > I've read enough Marshall McLuhan to realize the medium is the > message. Could someone in 1798 be able to create a true techno track? J.S. Bach did so before 1750... Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16055; 20 Jun 99 5:04 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vYqV-00048t-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:04:39 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (FAA14848); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:01:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:00:45 +0100 Received: from out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243] by hermes via ESMTP (FAA01252); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:00:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-101-208-63.dc.us.ibm.net [32.101.208.63]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA66526 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:00:48 GMT Message-ID: <376C689A.53F78292@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:05:47 -0400 From: "Job M. van Zuijlen" Reply-To: zuijlen@ibm.net Organization: electona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Csound List Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems References: <002b01beb980$d3cccf40$7b00a8c0@taz.intouch.co.za> <376BAD1F.FE19CAB3@intercom.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id FAA01252 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Why would sequencers be best suited for dance music? I still don't understand where this limited approach to sequencers comes from, the more so now that sequencers allow you to synchronize audio files with MIDI controlled equipment. And even though I do use a sequencer, I never felt the inclination to create a dance CD, although I would like to make some money with my music maybe one day ;-) Job van Zuijlen Josep M Comajuncosas wrote: >=20 > Of course you can write a full Symphony as a Csound score, or a richly = evolving > texture tweaking with the NRPN=B4s of a GM bank... I just mean that seq= uencers > work best with dance music, why not ... people like dancing/people hear= dance > music/people buy dance CD=B4s/composers want to make money writing danc= e CD=B4s/ > programmers want to sell their products... > Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16069; 20 Jun 99 5:09 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vYus-00048w-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:09:10 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (FAA09578); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:05:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:05:17 +0100 Received: from out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243] by hermes via ESMTP (FAA00921); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:05:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-101-208-63.dc.us.ibm.net [32.101.208.63]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA40606; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:05:21 GMT Message-ID: <376C69AC.4CBAB67D@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:10:21 -0400 From: "Job M. van Zuijlen" Reply-To: zuijlen@ibm.net Organization: electona X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Smitherman CC: Csound List Subject: Re: 'engish' txt for csound dos References: <000901beba7e$ce1b64e0$8f830b3f@isengardii> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk If you put english.txt in one of your predefined directories (SADIR, SFDIR, or SSDIR), csound will work in any directory you want, it does for me. Job van Zuijlen Jim Smitherman wrote: > > I understand that the newest csound wants english.tx (or whatever) > available, I have it in my csound bin dir, and it seems to me all my other > environment vars are set correctly, yet I cannot use dos csound in any > directory other than it's home directory, since it 'can't find db' whenever > I invoke it (though, csound finds itself). must I copy this database.txt to > each dir i wish to run on the dos level for? Surely not. What am I missing, > please? I do my best to read the docs, but there are so many of them. I'm > working at it, though. > > thanks, Jim Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16120; 20 Jun 99 5:57 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vZfJ-0004Dj-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:57:09 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (FAB12612); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:52:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:52:17 +0100 Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62] by hermes via ESMTP (FAA04185); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:52:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from default (1Cust248.tnt1.fort-wayne.in.da.uu.net [153.37.159.248]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA18287 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 21:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000f01bebad8$8cc0cb20$f89f2599@default> From: Michael Rhoades To: Csound List Subject: Re: Musical Forms (was techno bashing) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:51:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Paul Barrett, It took a little searching but I remembered the name of the artist I am speaking of. It is Henri Mattisse. I saw several works of his on display at the Chicago Museum of Art several years ago, including some of the simple yet wonderful drawings I described. They were similar to "The Embrace" that can be viewed here http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/4208/mat-e.html Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16205; 20 Jun 99 7:19 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vawk-0004Ec-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:19:14 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (HAA06343); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:15:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:15:10 +0100 Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by hermes via ESMTP (HAA18282); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:15:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from seanet.com (cy47.dialup.seanet.com [207.12.136.47]) by mx.seanet.com (8.9.3/Seanet-8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA08548; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <376C8864.8AFEC748@seanet.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:21:24 -0700 From: Sean Costello X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Gay CC: csoundlist Subject: Re: How do I get a fly buzzing sound? References: <001401bed320$4b285060$468c41d8@pacifier.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Mark Gay wrote: > > Hi, > > I've been trying to put together some instruments that duplicate the sound > of buzzing insects. I'd like to get a fat house fly type of buzz as well as > a more high pitched mousquito. I'm currently mostlly working with VAZ but > I use Csound as well. I haven't tried it, but here are a few ideas: 1) Start with the buzz generator. :) Or gbuzz, as it might be easier to get the proper sound this way. 2) Use filtering. For a mosquito, maybe some highpass filtering. For a housefly, maybe something like a lowpass filter combined with reson, with reson being modulated by the buzz signal (be sure kr=sr for this). This should help get that flatulent, sputtering effect. 3) Have the pitch and amplitude modulated by independent randi generators, set to low frequencies (1 Hz or so - experiment for best results). The amplitude modulation should be only a fraction of the overall amplitude. Sean Costello Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16213; 20 Jun 99 7:23 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vb0k-0004Ef-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:23:22 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (HAA16226); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:19:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:19:47 +0100 Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by hermes via ESMTP (HAA02455); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:19:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from seanet.com (cy47.dialup.seanet.com [207.12.136.47]) by mx.seanet.com (8.9.3/Seanet-8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA08666; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <376C897A.5D97DF18@seanet.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:26:02 -0700 From: Sean Costello X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zuijlen@ibm.net CC: Csound List Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems References: <002b01beb980$d3cccf40$7b00a8c0@taz.intouch.co.za> <376BAD1F.FE19CAB3@intercom.es> <376C689A.53F78292@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Job M. van Zuijlen wrote: > > Why would sequencers be best suited for dance music? Depends on the sequencer. A "piano roll" sequencer is best suited to an overdub approach, where the basic tracks are played in real time, and other tracks are played in relation to the first track. A loop based sequencer (such as Cubase) would seem suited to any form of repetitive music, such as techno. Techno started as a way of utilizing the looping nature of the simplistic sequencers found in Roland synths such as the TB-303 and SH-101, where only a minimal amount of notes can be entered into a given sequence. Sean Costello Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16394; 20 Jun 99 10:03 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vdVL-0004Fv-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:03:07 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA03578); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:58:55 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:58:43 +0100 Received: from root@smtp-out-007.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.126] by hermes via ESMTP (JAA08195); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:58:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from bmpl1-1-112.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.250.98.112] by wanadoo.fr for Paris Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:58:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <376CBF81.ED0E60B@exbang.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:18:12 +0000 From: Michel Jullian Reply-To: mj@exbang.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Javier Ruiz CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk, music-dsp list Subject: Re: SuperCollider References: <19990619164323.AAF27889@[62.81.84.246]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Javier Ruiz wrote: > > Well, there are a couple of features that James McCartney has not mentioned > about his program. > > 1) It is amazingly fast, even in my old PowerMac (not G3). Same for me, on my 8500/150. I'm truly amazed, and I would _really_ love SuperCollider as a VST2 plugin (James, you said you might do it, that's a great idea !). -- Greetings, Michel ......................................................................... Michel Jullian Directeur General email mj@exbang.com Exbang Industries S.A. Mas Chauvain route de Villeneuve tel +33(0) 499 529 878 Maurin 34970 Lattes France fax +33(0) 499 529 879 ......................................................................... Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16410; 20 Jun 99 10:07 BST Received: from [156.3.140.104] (helo=shoko.calarts.edu) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vda2-0004Fz-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:07:58 +0100 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by shoko.calarts.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA19457 for music-dsp-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 01:58:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shoko.calarts.edu: majordom set sender to owner-music-dsp@shoko.calarts.edu using -f Received: from wanadoo.fr (root@smtp-out-007.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.126]) by shoko.calarts.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19453 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 01:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bmpl1-1-112.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.250.98.112] by wanadoo.fr for Paris Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:58:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <376CBF81.ED0E60B@exbang.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:18:12 +0000 From: Michel Jullian X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Javier Ruiz CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk, music-dsp list Subject: Re: SuperCollider References: <19990619164323.AAF27889@[62.81.84.246]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-music-dsp@shoko.calarts.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: music-dsp@shoko.calarts.edu Javier Ruiz wrote: > > Well, there are a couple of features that James McCartney has not mentioned > about his program. > > 1) It is amazingly fast, even in my old PowerMac (not G3). Same for me, on my 8500/150. I'm truly amazed, and I would _really_ love SuperCollider as a VST2 plugin (James, you said you might do it, that's a great idea !). -- Greetings, Michel ......................................................................... Michel Jullian Directeur General email mj@exbang.com Exbang Industries S.A. Mas Chauvain route de Villeneuve tel +33(0) 499 529 878 Maurin 34970 Lattes France fax +33(0) 499 529 879 ......................................................................... dupswapdrop: the music-dsp mailing list and website http://shoko.calarts.edu/~glmrboy/musicdsp/music-dsp.html Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16436; 20 Jun 99 10:29 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vdv4-00011b-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:29:42 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA16080); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:26:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:25:52 +0100 Received: from adsl-209-78-185-158.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [209.78.185.158] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA08985); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:25:50 +0100 (BST) Received: from screech.weirdnoise.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by screech.weirdnoise.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA01590; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 02:25:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199906200925.CAA01590@screech.weirdnoise.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 To: Mark Gay cc: csoundlist Subject: Re: How do I get a fly buzzing sound? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:25:23 PDT." <001401bed320$4b285060$468c41d8@pacifier.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 02:25:25 -0700 From: Ed Hall Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I blew the dust off of an old SCO and ORC which may be close to what you're looking for: SCO: f1 0 4097 10 1 ; couple of flies buzz around i7 77.0 5.0 7.06 300 i7 77.2 4.6 8.00 200 ORC: ; Insect buzz cosine-term instrument instr 7 ipch = cpspch(p4) inhm = int(sr.5/ipch) krdm randi .1,ipch.0333,frac(p2.7071) kpch = ipch(.9+krdm) kenv linseg 0,p3.3,p5,p3.5,p5.5,p3.2,0 abuz gbuzz kenv,kpch,inhm,1,.925,3 aout reson abuz,ipch24,ipch12 outs aout,aout endin No guarantees; I used this exactly once as an anti-climax in something I wrote a decade ago... -Ed Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16456; 20 Jun 99 10:51 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10veG3-00011k-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:51:23 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA00936); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:48:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:47:52 +0100 Received: from root@lix.intercom.es [194.179.21.2] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA05737); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:47:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from intercom.es (iv2-137.intercom.es [195.76.206.137]) by lix.intercom.es (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA12364; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:51:49 +0100 Message-ID: <376CB6FF.E456139F@intercom.es> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:40:15 +0200 From: Josep M Comajuncosas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Gay , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: How do I get a fly buzzing sound? References: <001401bed320$4b285060$468c41d8@pacifier.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Mark Gay wrote: > Hi, > > I've been trying to put together some instruments that duplicate the sound > of buzzing insects. I'd like to get a fat house fly type of buzz as well as > a more high pitched mousquito. I'm currently mostlly working with VAZ but > I use Csound as well. > I had been looking for a similar sound months before. I suggest you to use the buzz opcode of course - with some lowpass filtering & randomness in the pitch and amplitude-, but you can get surprisingly good results by LPC resynthesis (using buzz again as the carrier) starting from a bad analysis parameters . The pitch tracker cannot get a proper pitched line and the result, even if not very similar to a real fly, is similarly buzzy, incertain and irritating!... after that route the sound in the 2d space and add some doppler effect and voila! -- Josep M Comajuncosas C/ Circumval.lacio 75 08790 Gelida - Penedes Catalunya - SPAIN home phone : 93 7792243 / 00 34 3 7792243 Csound page at http://members.tripod.com/csound/ Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16489; 20 Jun 99 11:12 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10veaL-0004H2-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:12:21 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (LAA06559); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:08:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:08:37 +0100 Received: from relay.interim.iamworld.net [204.91.241.82] by hermes via ESMTP (LAA06552); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:08:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from isengardii (1Cust117.tnt1.natchez.ms.da.uu.net [63.11.131.117]) by relay.interim.iamworld.net (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA21718; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 06:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004101bebb04$ffa63ae0$75830b3f@isengardii> From: Jim Smitherman To: zuijlen@ibm.net MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos Cc: Csound List References: <000901beba7e$ce1b64e0$8f830b3f@isengardii> <376C69AC.4CBAB67D@ibm.net> Subject: Re: 'engish' txt for csound dos Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:09:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Thank you much for your response: I put english.txt in my SET SADIR=C:\Csound\Analysis, but it still didn't work, after that I also put into that directory csound.txt, and there was again joy at the command line. Do you find that you only need english.txt? ----- Original Message ----- From: Job M. van Zuijlen To: Jim Smitherman Cc: Csound List Sent: Saturday, June 19, 1999 11:10 PM Subject: Re: 'engish' txt for csound dos > If you put english.txt in one of your predefined directories (SADIR, > SFDIR, or SSDIR), csound will work in any directory you want, it does > for me. > > Job van Zuijlen > > Jim Smitherman wrote: > > > > I understand that the newest csound wants english.tx (or whatever) > > available, I have it in my csound bin dir, and it seems to me all my other > > environment vars are set correctly, yet I cannot use dos csound in any > > directory other than it's home directory, since it 'can't find db' whenever > > I invoke it (though, csound finds itself). must I copy this database.txt to > > each dir i wish to run on the dos level for? Surely not. What am I missing, > > please? I do my best to read the docs, but there are so many of them. I'm > > working at it, though. > > > > thanks, Jim Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16505; 20 Jun 99 11:23 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10velX-000121-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:23:55 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (LAA00883); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:18:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:18:19 +0100 Received: from relay.interim.iamworld.net [204.91.241.82] by hermes via ESMTP (LAA05850); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:18:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from isengardii (1Cust117.tnt1.natchez.ms.da.uu.net [63.11.131.117]) by relay.interim.iamworld.net (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA21764; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 06:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005f01bebb06$5aa4cbe0$75830b3f@isengardii> From: Jim Smitherman To: Sherlock , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos References: <37643702.CBD21160@netzero.net> Subject: Re: Alone Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:19:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk well, I do feel a little alone. I'm an old newbie, who has been fiddling with csound for several years. mainly, I'm a pro pianist, and music theorist, lots of trad training and jazz experience, etc. and sometimes feel lost in the newness of the computer music language (I'm looking through Cmask and Common Music just recently). I'm very excited about all the possibilities of it, but my lack of formal math training is holding me back, even though I'm a decent computer user (some pro level database programming, mainly with Paradox, remember that?). I'm very conversant with midi, however, having a fine 88 key controller (kx88), hence my often spoken of interest on the group of using csound and midi, etc. still, I'm trying to make myself better . . . I recently purchased Roads Computer Music Tutorial, and am working my way through it, I have both editions of the Dodge/Jerse, and am working my way . . looking very much forward to the csound book in the fall (the chapter available by Boulanger on the web is excellent already, very useful). I follow the discussions on these lists as best I can. But, as the csound help file says, and as all music requires anyway: 'go on for a very long time' thanks for letting me sound off . . .. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sherlock To: Sent: Sunday, June 13, 1999 5:56 PM Subject: Alone > I was wondering if there were any newbies who feel alone in this Csound > programming. > There's no need to feel lonely. Csound is the best sound processing > language out there. Best, because of men like John Fitch working on. > Robin Whittle. Barry Verco. You can use Csound as a tutorial into sound > making. Right now, the best synthesizer for the home is on the PC, UNIX, > MAC, etc. Csound is what I use. My name is Robert McNulty Junior. > > I have been programming computers for nearly 16 years. The best > programming language for a computer to make sound is Csound. Look at the > Xanadu project. > > I like making music on my computer. I like sound. In fact, with MIDI2CS, > CONVERT, the Compaq WAV recorder, CSOUND, etc, I can make my own > "groovy" music. The best music comes from the heart, not a song sheet. > > MIDI2CS takes a MIDI file and makes two files, a SCO and a ORC. A long > time ago, these were one file. Well, MIDI2CS allows us to use our own > sounds in our music. This is neat. > > Well, there is a problem with this. If you record yourself humming, and > convert it to AIF and use in as part of a music file, you get a Munchkin > sound or Alvin the Chipmunk. Any way to resample this? > > > ________________________________________________________ > NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16555; 20 Jun 99 11:57 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vfI1-0004Hr-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:57:29 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (LAA09350); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:53:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:53:41 +0100 Received: from relay.interim.iamworld.net [204.91.241.82] by hermes via ESMTP (LAA15681); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:53:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from isengardii (1Cust117.tnt1.natchez.ms.da.uu.net [63.11.131.117]) by relay.interim.iamworld.net (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA21864; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 06:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008d01bebb0b$43f33800$75830b3f@isengardii> From: Jim Smitherman To: Josep M Comajuncosas , Paul Barrett Cc: csoundlist References: <002b01beb980$d3cccf40$7b00a8c0@taz.intouch.co.za> <376BAD1F.FE19CAB3@intercom.es> Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:54:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id LAA15681 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk ----- Original Message ----- From: Josep M Comajuncosas To: Paul Barrett Cc: csoundlist Sent: Saturday, June 19, 1999 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Csound and other synthesis systems I deeply respect electronic music in general and Csound in particular. I wouldn=B4t like it to become merely another softsynth or a plugin for commercial software. It has to be much more. As Csound is biased towards serious timbral research - and not much more honestly-, I see it naturaly linked to power= ful algorithmic composition packages to help in the elaboration of complex scores for example. _____________________________________ that is my personal feeling as well. There is groundwork being laid that will in the end produce the Stravinsky's, Bartoks, (Coltranes, Mingus's) etc, of the next era, and such as Csound will be _part_ of it, but all th= is research is needed first. It takes many working in these fields. We all work in a field-music-where the standards are set by genius. Genius is a hard act to follow, usually: and it is completely impossible to predict when and where it will arise. I've been most used to playing music real-time; for forty years I've play= ed piano, sometimes quite well, too (he said modestly), and have studied the= ory and composition on the graduate level, so my view of sequencers is that t= hey are fine _if you play the music in live_ . . . I use Cakewalk quite a lot for capturing improvisations, and for my teaching, and other practice and study, and find that its playback through a good synth is quite acceptabl= e artistically (well, a nine foot Steinway would be nice, too), but the possibilities for _real time-playing_ in midi are wonderful, especially regarding ensemble compositions. I have a fairly decent hand played Brandenburg 4/1, that works ok on a go= od synth, if anyone is interested in hearing it, I will gladly send it to th= em. Originally done on a sound canvas, I've found from synth to synth the balances of the voices can get a bit off so you might have to tweak that, (currently I have a sblive, not too bad), but anyway, all the parts are lovingly played in. This would be an interesting Csound compilation, but= I wouldn't know how to begin to design the instruments for the orc file. __Step entered midi files I cannot listen to for more than a few seconds.= __ other than perhaps for study purposes. They also print better. The combinations of midi complexities, and Csound/algorithmic packages ha= ve me fascinated as an artist. thanks for letting me contribute to the group. jim Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16593; 20 Jun 99 12:26 BST Received: from [204.91.241.82] (helo=relay.interim.iamworld.net) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vfk8-00012d-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:26:33 +0100 Received: from isengardii (1Cust117.tnt1.natchez.ms.da.uu.net [63.11.131.117]) by relay.interim.iamworld.net (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA22113; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00ad01bebb0f$d82bb840$75830b3f@isengardii> From: Jim Smitherman To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos References: Subject: Re: wcshell crashes Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 06:27:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 John: I run a mongrel pentiumMMX 233, 48 megs ram. I've almost never seen winsound crash during a compile, not sure I ever have in fact, maybe a couple of times: no it's always when I _shut it down_ . . (so, it isn't like it ruins a bunch of stuff, but it's still not good) let's see if I can recreat it now . . indeed, I can, after a normal compile, shutting down: this is from the norton crash guard data: __________________________________________ WINSOUND.EXE caused fault #c0000026 in KERNEL32.DLL at address 0177:bff88510 To date, CrashGuard has recorded 37 fatal error(s) in this program. Reported By: CrashGuard v3.03 Report Date: 06/20/1999 6:22:49 AM ___________________________________________ lately I've discovered, that this usually happens if I close winsound using the X in the upper right hand corner. Usually, if I use 'exit' on the menu, it seems ok. Still, it's weird, don't you think? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 8:33 AM Subject: Re: wcshell crashes > Message written at 7 Jun 1999 06:11:25 +0100 > --- Copy of mail to jts1@iamerica.net --- > > Could you tell be a few more details about your machine? I have not > seen a winsound crash for some while now, so either I am lucky or > there is something about Windows98 which is different. How much > memory do you have for example? Not that that shoudl affect > it.... does it crash on simple orchestras like the bach.orc/sco > example? > > ==John ffitch Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa16604; 20 Jun 99 12:30 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10vfny-0004IC-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:30:30 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (MAA07664); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:26:42 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:26:29 +0100 Received: from relay.interim.iamworld.net [204.91.241.82] by hermes via ESMTP (MAA12279); Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:26:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from isengardii (1Cust117.tnt1.natchez.ms.da.uu.net [63.11.131.117]) by relay.interim.iamworld.net (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA22113; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00ad01bebb0f$d82bb840$75830b3f@isengardii> From: Jim Smitherman To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos References: Subject: Re: wcshell crashes Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 06:27:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk John: I run a mongrel pentiumMMX 233, 48 megs ram. I've almost never seen winsound crash during a compile, not sure I ever have in fact, maybe a couple of times: no it's always when I _shut it down_ . . (so, it isn't like it ruins a bunch of stuff, but it's still not good) let's see if I can recreat it now . . indeed, I can, after a normal compile, shutting down: this is from the norton crash guard data: __________________________________________ WINSOUND.EXE caused fault #c0000026 in KERNEL32.DLL at address 0177:bff88510 To date, CrashGuard has recorded 37 fatal error(s) in this program. Reported By: CrashGuard v3.03 Report Date: 06/20/1999 6:22:49 AM ___________________________________________ lately I've discovered, that this usually happens if I close winsound using the X in the upper right hand corner. Usually, if I use 'exit' on the menu, it seems ok. Still, it's weird, don't you think? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 8:33 AM Subject: Re: wcshell crashes > Message written at 7 Jun 1999 06:11:25 +0100 > --- Copy of mail to jts1@iamerica.net --- > > Could you tell be a few more details about your machine? I have not > seen a winsound crash for some while now, so either I am lucky or > there is something about Windows98 which is different. How much > memory do you have for example? Not that that shoudl affect > it.... does it crash on simple orchestras like the bach.orc/sco > example? > > ==John ffitch