| Richard Wentk wrote:
> E.g so far as I know us non-Unix PC users have *no* access to SGML, in any
> shape or form. Doing an SGML manual is therefore a waste of time as far as
> we're concerned. I'm sure the same applies to other options on other formats.
>
> The bottom line - all generic formats have serious disadvantages. Raw ASCII
> edited to best effect and then distributed for each machine doesn't. In
> fact it has important advantages, which won't ever be possible with a
> generic solution.
>
> R.
The point is the manual wouldn't be distributed in SGML format. The
Linux HOWTO
series is written in SGML, but it is available to everyone in ASCII,
HTML, LaTeX,
DVI, Postscript, RTF, etc. That's the advantage of SGML. The author
writes in a
document meta-language that supports constructs that can be rendered in
any
format. That's why it's an ISO standard (ISO 8879:1986). It's even
possible to
handle things like audio files. In the HTML version it would be "Click
here to
listen to example 1" and in the printed forms "Listen to example 1."
It also can be easily parsed by small C programs. My programming manuals
are
written in SGML, but are "maintained" by Makefiles. The makefiles allow
me
to type "make", upon which the code examples are compiled, run, their
output
captured and included back into the document. If the code doesn't
compile, the
document doesn't build and I know I have a problem. Since the document
"includes"
the actual code and output, I know the document is always in sync. It's
even
possible to include SGML constructs in the comment headers of library
routines
(or ugens), that allow "auto" documentation via some simple perl
scripts. If we
had a standard prologue for ugens based on SGML, the author could simply
supply
a single file that provided both source code and documentation (ala
Donald Knuth's
"Literate Programming").
For more info on the capabilities of SMGL see:
http://www.sil.org/sgml/sgml.html
http://www.icce.rug.nl/docs/sgml.html
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From: Tony Ledford
To: csound
Subject: TANGENT: OOP and precedents WAS(Re: prettyness of code (was Re:
hidden MIDI functions))
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 08:53:57 -0500
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This might be a good time to point out that the programming language C
(temporal origin circa 1971) is about two years older than SmallTalk
(temporal origin circa 1973) which is in turn about twelve years older than
C++ (temporal origin circa 1985), which is in everyday use by about
500,000% (my estimate) more programmers than is SmallTalk.
My $.02,
Tony
----------
: From: Charles Baker
: To: csound@maths.exeter.ac.uk
: Cc: Marc Resibois
: Subject: Re: prettyness of code (was Re: hidden MIDI functions)
: Date: Saturday, February 15, 1997 3:15 AM
:
:
: >I would defy anyone that has looked to the code and tried to do
: something
: >with it to think more than five minutesabout moving it to C++... I
: surely
: >wouldn't.
:
:
: I agree, Marc: the Csound code is clearly C code, not C++ in
: conception or
: implementation. If someone wants to use an object-oriented language
: (my cynic says that for most people, "object-oriented" should read:
: "sexy/new") for synthesis, they would do a lot better to look at:
:
: 1) D. Jaffe's/J.O.Smith's MusicKit for NeXT. (In an unjustly
: forgotten language: Objective-C, which, by the way pre-dates C++,
: I've been told. I think it's forgotten because the syntax was based
: on Smalltalk (YEAH!), not on trying to look like C: I think C++ was
: written so old C programmers could say "oh, yeah, I can write that
: Object stuff: see here's my C++ code..." 'Nuff said...)
:
: 2) Kyma - Smalltalk, 'da grandaddy of O-O languages! :-) I wish *I*
: could afford a Kyma system RIGHT NOW!! (maybe later,
: Kurt/Carla...).
:
: 3) Stephen Pope's MODE (again, Smalltalk).
:
: 4) Perry Cook's C++ synth toolkit: This one should pick up
: admirers: it's *clearly*
: object-oriented in structure/approach, and is simple, looks easy to
: extend.
:
:
: Don't fantasize about a Csound re-write that will not happen: I
: think the extensions
: to Csound that are already going into place (as far as I know) are
: the correct direction
: for Csound: Inclusion of more/better opcodes, DSP assembly
: implementations,
: but not a complete re-write of the program's A.P.I., fer cryin' out loud!
:
: Well, just my thoughts...I'm sure there are those who would rather
: I keep them to myself...
: but, hey, what's the internet for, after all?
:
: Take Care, my csound companions.
: And happy synthesising!
:
: CharlieB
: baker@charlieb.com
: http://www.charlieb.com
:
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From: Kami Rousseau
To: csound
Subject: Midi2csound and back
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 09:20:14 -0500
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I have not used the cso/mid converter yet, but I would strongly suggest
that the person who coded it looked at
http://www.interlinx.qc.ca/~kami/tutorial.htm
The document talks about channel 10 and reserving channels for instruments
that use alternative tunings and permanent pitch bend. I would be very
happy to provide feedback if such features were to be added.
-Kami
** I am a peach tree,
** Blossoming in a deep pit.
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To: Charles Baker , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Larry Troxler
Subject: Re: prettyness of code (was Re: hidden MIDI functions)
Cc: Marc Resibois
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At 12:15 AM 2/15/97 -0800, Charles Baker wrote:
>I agree, Marc: the Csound code is clearly C code, not C++ in
>conception or
>implementation.
I have no idea what you could mean you say something is either C or C++ in
conception. As for implementation, I agree, it's fairly obvious that CSound
was written in C :-).
And I agree now that rewriting CSound entirely from scratch in C++ would
have questionable value at this point. And the point appears to be moot
since some CSound platforms can't run C++ compilers yet.
>If someone wants to use an object-oriented language
>(my cynic says that for most people, "object-oriented" should read:
>"sexy/new") for synthesis, they would do a lot better to look at:
Uhh, the term "object-oriented" is "sexy/new", but the concept isn't. Think
"modularization". It's what programmers have hopefully been doing all along.
It's just that some languages have features to make the modularization more
apparent and explicit.
Also, you seem to be equating C++ with OOP. Not always true. There's several
areas where using C++ features can be helpfull, without using "objects".
>
>1) D. Jaffe's/J.O.Smith's MusicKit for NeXT.
I haven't looked at this because I understand that it needs a DSP card. Is
this true?
>I think C++ was
>written so old C programmers could say "oh, yeah, I can write that
>Object stuff: see here's my C++ code..." 'Nuff said...)
Huh? I've used two revisions of a MIDI library (cmidi). The first was in C,
and the second was built on the first, but also rewritten in C++. I found
that the second edition was much easier for me to quickly understand and use.
>4) Perry Cook's C++ synth toolkit: This one should pick up
>admirers: it's *clearly*
>object-oriented in structure/approach, and is simple, looks easy to
>extend.
I don't recall this one. Do you have a URL for it?
Larry
-- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA --
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From: Tobias Kunze
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:20:10 -0800
In-Reply-To: Charles Baker "Re: prettyness of code (was Re: hidden MIDI functions)" (Feb 15, 12:15am)
References: <199702142106.WAA01858@ping1.ping.be> <9702150815.AA00541@ibaker.filoli.com>
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To: Charles Baker , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: prettyness of code (was Re: hidden MIDI functions)
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| 1) D. Jaffe's/J.O.Smith's MusicKit for NeXT. (In an
| unjustly forgotten language: Objective-C
yes, the MusicKit is Objective-C, but (and this is a big `but'):
most of it's actual code is hand-optimized in assembler. The
benefits of oo-design, however, are passed on to the user in
that s/he can easily add synth patch classes to the kit.
--
______________________________________________________________________
Tobias Kunze t@kunze.stanford.edu
CCRMA, Stanford University http://www.stanford.edu/~tkunze
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From: Toby
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Subject: Drumachine2.03 available.
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Supports Crescendo/Decrescendo, and
Ritard/Accellerando. Any smooth variation
of tempo or amplitude really.
http://www.fishnet.net/~willis/drumachine/drumachine.html
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Richard Wentk
Subject: Re: Manual formats
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At 09:01 15/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>The point is the manual wouldn't be distributed in SGML format. The
>Linux HOWTO
>series is written in SGML, but it is available to everyone in ASCII,
>HTML, LaTeX,
>DVI, Postscript, RTF, etc. That's the advantage of SGML. The author
>writes in a
>document meta-language that supports constructs that can be rendered in
>any
>format. That's why it's an ISO standard (ISO 8879:1986). It's even
>possible to
>handle things like audio files. In the HTML version it would be "Click
>here to
>listen to example 1" and in the printed forms "Listen to example 1."
That's fine - as long as someone makes sure an up to date rendered version
of the SGML is available on a server where everyone can get at it!
Is this process automated? Do you tell the server 'I want RTF' and out
comes an RTF version - I mean over FTP, since (and someone please correct
me if I'm wrong) there's no SGML rendering software available for Wintel?
And can it handle something like the Windows help file format? *That* would
be useful...
R.
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:20:47 -0800
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From: "Alexander G. Burchell"
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: prettyness of code
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"Marc Resibois" writes:
> I would defy anyone that has looked to the code and tried to do something
> with it to think more than five minutesabout moving it to C++... I surely
> wouldn't.
You're not kidding. CSOUND has to be one of the ugliest (sorry)
pieces of old-style C code I've ever seen. A port to C++ would really
be cleaning the Augean stables. Plus, I don't think it's necessary
because the object-orientation of C++ would be lost on CSOUND.
There's really no underlying object paradigm which applies here, it's
straight procedural: (1) read/parse .orc & .sco (2) generate output
(3) write it out.
Of course, if you want to consider every instrument as an object,
score events as objects, etc. etc. a la Interviews where every text
character typed in the word processor is an object, please do so.
However, Interviews took great pains to avoid the computation overhead
of object orientation by implementing what they called "flyweight
objects", i.e. objects with mostly superclass inhertiance, as I
understand.
This is a job for the CS geeks I think, not poor hackers.
Alexander G. Burchell
http://www.pacificnet.net/~agb/
agb@pacificnet.net
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:33:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Lawrence Troxler
To: "Alexander G. Burchell"
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: C++ (Re: prettyness of code)
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On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Alexander G. Burchell wrote:
>
> Of course, if you want to consider every instrument as an object,
Well, most definitely every *ugen* would be an object. That would be a
natural application of C++ classes.
Larry
-- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA --
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:04:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Karpen
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To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: prettyness of code
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Well I've been watching this thread for several days and have tried to
resist adding my own two cents. But I feel compelled to add my own view at
this point, which is nothing more than probably common observations.
First: Yes there are things that can be modernized and cleaned up in the
Csound code. Some of us have been gradually doing this and as the code is
widely available and free, anyone else can do the same.
Second: A point that seems to have been missed about the underlying
structure of the Csound code is that it IS in fact VERY object oriented in
design. One only has to build their own unit generators that use the
functions supplied by Csound to see how this is so. Every new unit
generator is in fact a sort of "object" of the "class" unit-generator
which includes "for free" a bounty of functionality that need not be
re-coded for each new unit generator. And this makes it VERY easy to add
ones own units to the language. So while it might not be OOP in the exact
and proper sense of using an OO language and syntax, the structure does
allow one to think in OO terms.
Third: I'm not against having someone rewrite Csound in whatever language
they feel would be the fastest and most effective. Just let us know when
you've got something that works as well or better than the current Csound
and I'll be among the first to try it out. Really. But for the time
being, we've got something that really works, that is style neutral, that
is extensible, that is cross-platform, that is FREE, that comes with ALL
of the code!! It's really quite a miracle actually by the commercial
software standards of today. Remember (I know that such reminders have
already been posted, but I feel that it can't hurt to say it one more
time), Csound is FREE and is maintained, updated, and so on, by people
giving their own unpaid time to this project.
So let's stop commenting about *ugly* code unless such comments are
accompanied by specific changes that could/should be made to enhance
the language for the community of users.
End of my two cents!
Richard Karpen
=====================================================
Professor Richard Karpen
Director, Center for Advanced Research Technology
in the Arts and Humanities (CARTAH)
Box 353680
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
Phone: (206) 543-7130 FAX: (206) 685-9499
email: karpen@u.washington.edu
www: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~karpen
=====================================================
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Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:06:33 +0100
From: Gabriel Maldonado
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To: Larry Troxler
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Subject: Re: prettyness of code (was Re: hidden MIDI functions)
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Larry Troxler wrote:
> >4) Perry Cook's C++ synth toolkit: This one should pick up
> >admirers: it's *clearly*
> >object-oriented in structure/approach, and is simple, looks easy to
> >extend.
>
> I don't recall this one. Do you have a URL for it?
>
> Larry
The real-time synth toolkit classes in c++ can be found at the url:
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~prc/
Gabriel
g.maldonado@agora.stm.it
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