| Silence is a measure of our knowledge
Josep M
Larry Troxler wrote:
> Fay Weinstein wrote: nothing
>
> I agree completely!
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From: Josep M Comajuncosas
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To: Larry Troxler
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zuijlen@ibm.net, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk,
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Silence is a measure of our knowledge
Josep M
Larry Troxler wrote:
> Fay Weinstein wrote: nothing
>
> I agree completely!
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From: Thomas Hudson
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To: Richard Dobson
CC: Larry Troxler , Csound List
Subject: Re: if.../ Common Lisp Music / compilers / interpreters
References: <36D58F53.7FD7564B@charlieb.com> <36D5FE3B.53669DC2@westnet.com> <36D6B417.B0AF3005@ccrma.stanford.edu> <36D77161.6A2EC956@westnet.com> <36D7D4ED.5D1C5B8A@cableinet.co.uk>
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Richard Dobson wrote:
>
> The trouble is that if we use the term 'compiler' too librerally, it
> ends up meaning everything and nothing.
[snip]
> Conversely, I understand CLM to be (according to the given descriptions)
> a language ~translator~ - it translates it's native language into C.
Yes, but now we have to change the definition of the first C++ "compiler",
since it really translated to C and leveraged the existing C compilers
to create machine code. And of course GCC is not a compiler since it
really translates to assembly and calls the assembler to create machine code.
I tend to believe that any tool that calls other tools and eventually ends
up with native machine intstructions can be called a compiler.
[snip]
> If MIDI
> sequencers depended on the availablility of a C compiler on everyone's
> machine, I don't think they would be the commercial and musical
> phenomenon they are!
>
Agreed. But at least on Unix-style systems, I feel this a proper approach.
Rather than reimplementing a compiler, leverage an existing one by generating
C. Every good Unix system has a C compiler. Now instead of a program that
only generates machine code for x86, I have a program that generates code
for anything the compiler supports. GCC can be configured as a cross-compiler
for a staggering number of architectures, including some DSPs. GCC is free,
freely redistributable, and runs on all Unices, win32 platforms, BeOS, and
quite a few others. I'm not sure if there is a mac port.
I would love to see an environment where during the development stage it
did interpretation, and when ready I could compile to a standalone executable
a new generator, or a shared library.
However, the recent discussion about licensing has made me want to shy
away from csound. If I contribute code, it suddenly becomes something
that only MIT can financially profit from. Has anyone contributed code
with an explicitly different license?
Perhaps it is time for a new environment, inspired by both CLM and CSound,
with a GPL-style license so it could be distributed like Linux, and of
course, a more modern syntax.
Thomas
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From: J P Fitch
To: Shamus McConney
cc: David Boothe ,
Csound (E-mail)
Subject: Re: hrtfer problem
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Try ftp.maths.bath.ac.uk:pub/dream/utilities/Analysis/HRTFcompact
or similar place on teh Montreal mirror
==John#
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From: Eric Scheirer
To: Thomas Hudson , Richard Dobson
Cc: Larry Troxler , Csound List
Subject: Re: if.../ Common Lisp Music / compilers / interpreters
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:39:25 -0500
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I did't make all of this stuff explicit when I noted
something about SAOL before, and perhaps there are some
people who are unaware. This is off-topic for this list, and I
apologize in advance. I won't post anything more about SAOL
for a while.
Thomas Hudson wrote:
>Perhaps it is time for a new environment, inspired by both CLM and CSound,
>with a GPL-style license so it could be distributed like Linux, and of
>course, a more modern syntax.
SAOL (pronounced "SAOL") is a new music language that is part
of the MPEG-4 standard. It has all of the features that have
been discussed in this thread, including block-structured
syntax, procedural abstraction, an extensive library of
built-in unit generators plus dynamic extensibility, a
formalized scheduling and processing model, and a lot of other
things.
The syntax of SAOL is C-like (C++ mode for emacs can be
used to edit SAOL orchestra code).
SAOL was created by MIT and has formally been released into the
public domain. This is a more open license than Csound. MIT
has explicitly expressed that it has no plans to profit
from SAOL in any way. Every fully conforming MPEG-4 decoder
(for example, any MPEG-4 set-top box) is required to provide
real-time synthesis of SAOL code. The so-called Structured
Audio tools of MPEG-4 are the only part of MPEG-4 without IP and
patent hangups.
The implementation that MIT wrote is a simple interpreter.
There's a brand-new implementation, completely SAOL-compatible
with ours, that another organization will be making available
soon (likely free of cost, but I don't know under what terms)
that compiles SAOL to C code for real-time execution. There's
at least one more project in the works to make a free run-time
p-code interpreter.
There are a number of papers about SAOL and the rest of the
Structured Audio tools here:
http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds/papers.html.
There's an extensive overview being published in the Summer 1999
Computer Music Journal.
You can download a draft of the Structured Audio standard,
which contains the formal specification of SAOL, as well as
my slow implementation, here:
http://sound.media.mit.edu/mpeg4.
This site also has mailing lists and very simple example orchestras
to download.
For people who want to get involved, there's lots to do, including
hacking on the free implementations, writing tutorials, making
example orchestras, writing music, adding SAOL support to other
computer-music tools, and so forth. We're delighted to have you!
Best to all,
-- Eric
+-----------------+
| Eric Scheirer |A-7b5 D7b9|G-7 C7|Cb C-7b5 F7#9|Bb |B-7 E7|
|eds@media.mit.edu| < http://sound.media.mit.edu/~eds >
| 617 253 0112 |A A/G# F#-7 F#-/E|Eb-7b5 D7b5|Db|C7b5 B7b5|Bb|
+-----------------+
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From: "Dr J.Stevenson's research assistant"
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To: lt@westnet.com, rwd@cableinet.co.uk
Subject: Re: if.../ Common Lisp Music / compilers / interpreters
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Ahhh, huh???? A 'scripting language' the way you define it is just a compiler of a compiler
just like Eiffel's compiler evern C doesn't compile in 1 pass its another 2+ pass
compiler. A scripting language is REALLY just a 3+ compiler. A compiler is a compiler
just like a rose is a rose even by any other name; an interpreter language is really
just a 1- pass compiler IMHO-- it took me 5 yrs & a BSCS to learn this but hey,
I had fun in college & it wuz worth it -l8r
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Subject: [tuning] New examples of microtonal music using Csound - Partch Tonality Diamond
From: prodgers@us.ibm.com
For those interested in microtonal music examples, I have placed some new
microtonal pieces on MP3.com, a free repository for music. Web site is
http://www.mp3.com/PrentRodgers . The songs are all based on a variety of
utonality and otonality scale systems. For details on the way they were
made, see my personal page at http://pws.prserv.net/music1/ . All are made
with Csound, and a macro pre-processor that simplifies modulating around
the diamond, and algorithmic modifications of tones, melodies, and
harmonies.
MP3.com lets anyone post any music by anyone. As long as you don't mind
being listed next to " I AM - instrumental sh*t mix" by die Feuer Rabe or
"Something Is Wrong With My Pe*is" by 404 Not Found. They will take any MP3
file less than 10mb in size. They also create a real-audio sample file for
those who really want to know what is wrong with Mr. 404's member, but
don't want to take the 10 minutes to download the whole .mp3 file. The
accumulate statistics on how many people visit, listen, or download your
music, complete with charts, standings, and other info. Adding songs is
quick and easy, except for the 20 minute upload part.
Prent Rodgers
Mercer Island, Washington
prodgers@us.ibm.com
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Subject: New examples of microtonal music using Csound - Partch Tonality
Diamond
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For those interested in microtonal music examples, I have placed some new
microtonal pieces on MP3.com, a free repository for music. Web site is
http://www.mp3.com/PrentRodgers . The songs are all based on a variety of
utonality and otonality scale systems. For details on the way they were
made, see my personal page at http://pws.prserv.net/music1/ . All are made
with Csound, and a macro pre-processor that simplifies modulating around
the diamond, and algorithmic modifications of tones, melodies, and
harmonies.
MP3.com lets anyone post any music by anyone. As long as you don't mind
being listed next to " I AM - instrumental sh*t mix" by die Feuer Rabe or
"Something Is Wrong With My Pe*is" by 404 Not Found. They will take any MP3
file less than 10mb in size. They also create a real-audio sample file for
those who really want to know what is wrong with Mr. 404's member, but
don't want to take the 10 minutes to download the whole .mp3 file. The
accumulate statistics on how many people visit, listen, or download your
music, complete with charts, standings, and other info. Adding songs is
quick and easy, except for the 20 minute upload part.
Prent Rodgers
Mercer Island, Washington
prodgers@us.ibm.com
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Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:39:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Wayne Freno
To: pete moss
cc: csound
Subject: Keyboard magazine csound article
In-Reply-To: <36D7A8B4.20C91CA7@flash.net>
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There was an introductory article on Csound in the January '97
Keyboard.
On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, pete moss wrote:
> what article is this from keyboard? is it a positive or neg article? do you
> know when it is from, i would like to look it up.
>
> pete
>
>
> > I can't wonder how much of this is due to that article in Keyboard mag a
> > few years ago. IOW, I wonder that because Csound as of late, has been
> > rather publicised, probably not just in Keyboard but in Linux magazine,
> > etc, that new-comers looking for a powerfull software synthesis program
> > will kind of a assume that this is leading-edge stuff, and not realize
> > it is some hacked and re-hacked piece of code a few decades old.
>
>
end soundbite
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From: Bill DeWitt
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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Subject: Intro
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:43:38 -0500
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Hi,
After several months of Havoc I am attempting to learn the basics of csound
again. I do some small POV-Ray animations and would like to have my own
sounds to package with them. I am really tired of trying to find low noise
.wav files of common sound effects. I have some interest in actual music via
CSound, but will be happy right now if I can just make a squeaky door or a
thump when I want it...
I was on this list once before, but lost my server and have been doing
various things to try to get a solid ISP again, hopefully this address will
last for a while.
` 0**************** Bill and Aula DeWitt *****************0
* It is for our own benefit to keep every *
* gift of God fresh in our memory. *
0**** http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/8868/ ****0
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From: Michael Gogins
To: Richard Dobson , Larry Troxler
Cc: Csound List
Subject: Re: if.../ Common Lisp Music / compilers / interpreters
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:27:57 -0500
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Sorry to belabor the point, but this whole business of what is a compiler or
an interpreter does not seem to be well understood on this list.
An interpreter reads source code, translates it into executable form one
line at a time, executes a line, and throws away the translated code. Each
time a line of source code needs to be executed, it is translated all over
again.
A compiler translates source code into executable code and saves the
translated code. Each time a line of source code needs to be executed, the
already translated code is executed.
The executable code is of course executed on a processor. "Machine language"
means that the executable code consists of instructions in the instruction
set of the host processor, for example a Pentium chip. "Pseudo code" means
that the executable code consists of instructions in the instruction set of
a virtual machine. Examples of such virtual machines are the Pascal p-code
machine, the Java Virtual Machine, or (loosely speaking) the Csound program.
This discussion has become confused for several reasons.
Csound is a true compiler, because it translates source code into executable
code all at once, and does not have to translate it again during execution.
But the orchestra language syntax is simple, like that of assembly language.
Is an assembler a compiler? Yes.
Csound does not produce executable code for the host processor, but rather
for musmon, which is (loosely speaking) a virtual machine. A virtual machine
is sometimes called an interpreter, but this not accurate. Unlike
interpreted code, all the symbols (function addresses, variable addresses)
in pseudo-code are resolved at the time of original translation. It is more
accurate to say that the "actions" in the pseudo-code are carried out by a
virtual machine, which is emulated by a program running on the host
processor.
In modern Java virtual machines, when the compiled pseudo-code (the .class
code) is first executed, another level of compilation takes place, from
instructions for the virtual machine to instructions that are directly
executable on the host processor. This is called "just-in-time compilation".
It produces a whole new order of magnitude of efficiency because Java
pseudo-code is complex and is not completely resolved during execution. With
Csound, because the Csound pseudo-code is simple, like assembly language,
and completely resolved at translation except for copying instrument
templates into new instances and filling in their pfields and gens for new
notes in the score, there would probably not be a large gain in efficiency
from compiling directly to machine language. After all, the opcodes
themselves, where most of the action happens, are already compiled and
optimized machine language. In other words, the Csound virtual machine, due
to its simplicity, is highly efficient and probably would not benefit as
much as Java from just-in-time compilation.
In my opinion, Csound represents a pretty good compromise between a number
of sharply conflicting goals in music synthesis. Increasing the power of the
language would either slow Csound down, or make the orchestra compiler much
more complicated, and also make it take longer to translate orchestras.
Keeping the language simple also makes it conceptually easier to add new
opcodes. As it happens, some quite complex instruments can be written in
Csound. If more is desired, it is always possible to code away in C or C++
and link the result in as a new opcode.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Dobson
To: Larry Troxler
Cc: Csound List
Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: if.../ Common Lisp Music / compilers / interpreters
>The trouble is that if we use the term 'compiler' too librerally, it
>ends up meaning everything and nothing. In my mind, Csound is really a
>scripting language. It doesn't 'compile into code', nor is it an
>interpreter (there is no 'executable output'), it links
>~already-compiled~ routines according to the users requirements. Output
>is either a sounfile, or an audio stream. Even if we call Csound's
>syntax 'assembler-like', there is still no machine-like code it compiles
>into, as such, just linked lists of routines. Thus Csound was able to be
>adapted to link SHARC dsp modules (pre-built), for XTCsound. Perhaps
>this is a case where Csound ~is~ more of a compiler; though surely the
>SHARC executable it produces requires a lot of support from the XTCsound
>OS - and the ADI linker.
>
>
>Conversely, I understand CLM to be (according to the given descriptions)
>a language ~translator~ - it translates it's native language into C.
>Presumably in the days when it produced 56K dsp code, it was linking
>existing modules, rather than compiling directly into machine code.
>
>If we call Csound ~or~ CLM 'compliers', then we really have to call web
>browsers compilers too, simply because they take HTML and turn it into
>pictures and text on a screen.
>
>CLM looks like an attractive package; but it is from these descriptions
>very much less self-sufficient than Csound. Nobody even needs to own a C
>compiler to use Csound. For many users, that must be a major part of its
>attraction, and hence its success. Composers can get into it step by
>step, without having to have a full-scale computer-science-like
>environment, with commandline c-compilers and the rest. If MIDI
>sequencers depended on the availablility of a C compiler on everyone's
>machine, I don't think they would be the commercial and musical
>phenomenon they are!
>
>Richard Dobson
>
>
>--
>Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
>http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
>CDP homepage: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm
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From: Hans Mikelson
To: Shamus McConney
Cc: "Csound (E-mail)"
Subject: Re: hrtfer problem
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:00:26 -0600
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Hi,
The required file is available in the following directory:
ftp://ftp.maths.bath.ac.uk/pub/dream/utilities/Analysis/
Bye,
Hans Mikelson
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From: Richard Dobson
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Subject: thought experiment (was:Re: if.../)
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I don't have much of a problem with this 'loosely speaking' defininition
of a compiler, with respect to Csound, though the pseudo-code is very
tightly coupled to the Csound virtual machine (indeed, entirely
embedded); even java byte-code can be distributed independently of the
compiler.
On this basis, all the current 'soft-synth's which are based on the
ad-lib interconnection of unit generators can similarly be described as
compilers, even though the 'pseudo-code' generated by them remains
inacessible. MAX (especially with MSP) would also fall into this
category.
Now, my thought experiment is this:
One lingering 'feature' of Csound is that although it can be run in
real-time, as we all know, there is nevertheless a significant delay
between the command to compile, and the start of performance -
especially if a number of samples have to be loaded, function tables
created, and so on. Complex orchestras can themselves take a while to
compile. Each time the orc+score is run, you have this delay. This is
even true with Extended Csound on the ADI card - you press 'play' - then
wait, and at some arbitrary time, performance actually starts.
Given the fact, as established, that Csound compiles into pseudo-code,
it should be possible to export that code in some binary format,
together with all ftables, samples, and so forth - in effect, a huge
readymade preset (and probably not so different in principle from a SAOL
bit-stream). A cut-down performance-only version of Csound (preferably
re-entrant!) could load this with negligible delay (no parsing, sorting
or error-checking - done already by the compiler), and playback would be
able to start instantly at the moment of the command - as everything has
already been built. This has a number of advantages - predictable and
reliable timing in the context of live interactive performance, and the
possibility of binary-only distribution of instruments and compositions,
which immediately leads to the further possibility of commercial
exploitation. This is after all one of the purposes of a compiler - to
produce an application that can be run and distributed independently of
the tools used to create it, and that does not expose intellectual
property.
So, how about it? How feasible is this, and what are the political,
technical, legal and other ramifications of such a development? Does
anyone on this list even like the idea?
Richard Dobson
Michael Gogins wrote:
>
> Sorry to belabor the point, but this whole business of what is a compiler or
> an interpreter does not seem to be well understood on this list.
>
>
> Csound does not produce executable code for the host processor, but rather
> for musmon, which is (loosely speaking) a virtual machine. A virtual machine
> is sometimes called an interpreter, but this not accurate. Unlike
> interpreted code, all the symbols (function addresses, variable addresses)
> in pseudo-code are resolved at the time of original translation. It is more
> accurate to say that the "actions" in the pseudo-code are carried out by a
> virtual machine, which is emulated by a program running on the host
> processor.
>
[etc]
--
Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page!
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd
CDP homepage: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm
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Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:44:38 +0100
From: David Cortes Provencio
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Sorry for this off-topic but:
Does anybody in the list have a C++ class wrapper for the MIDI events
and streams for visual C++ (v. 5) rather than the MCI and MM stuff?
If it's well documented I will speed up the development of a midi
client/server app. for the 'distributed systems' course in the
university.=20
This program will be a very basic secuencer with several clients sending
diferent notes, channels and program numbers over a net while the server
play it.
Will be available a.s.a.p. for free and with the source code in my web
page.
Thanks a lot and excuse this off-topic again
--=20
+---------------------------------+
| David Cort=E9s Provencio |
| D. C. P. |
| S O F T & M U S I C |
+---------------------------------+
|<< mailto:dcproven@ieee.org>> |
|http://www.ctv.es/USERS/dcproven |
+---------------------------------+
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Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:29:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Shamus McConney
To: Csound
Subject: Re: hrtfer problem
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> Try ftp.maths.bath.ac.uk:pub/dream/utilities/Analysis/HRTFcompact
>
> or similar place on teh Montreal mirror
> ==John#
Thanks again.
Shamus McConney
PS. To those who are working on the manual upgrades, this is a good little
bit of info that should probaly be included in it. Just a thought.
mcconney@nwe.ufl.edu
http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~mcconney/
http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~mcconney/Pd+.html
|