Re: phasor

Date	1999-08-22 14:10
From	Richard Dobson
Subject	Re: phasor
	You don't say what you are expecting, so it's difficult to answer this, but what you are getting is a very low frequency signal - som four cycles per score line. On the face of it, your value for kpch ranges from 12 down to 0.99 and less, so maybe you need a different scaling calculation. Drop 22050 by 12 octaves, and you do get down comfortably below the human frequency range. Your f2 table has 16 elements, but you are scaling the phasor by 12, is that intentional? If you scale kpch by 12,24 or whatever, you can get something audible - but I still cannot say if it what you want! Richard Dobson Sherlock wrote: > > Could someone take a look at this and tell me where I went wrong? > > sr = 44100 > kr = 4410 > ksmps = 10 > nchnls = 1 > > instr 1 > k1 phasor p5 > kpch table k1 * 12, 2 > a1 oscil p4, cpspch(kpch), 2 > out a1 > > endin > > ;Function 1 uses the GEN8 subroutine to compute a wave > f1 0 4096 10 1 > f2 0 4096 10 1 .5 .333 .25 .2 .166 .142 .125 .111 .1 .09 .083 .076 > .071 .066 .062 > > ;inst start duration p4 p5 p6 p7 p8 p9 > > i1 0 1.75 10000 440 > i1 2 1.75 20000 660 > e > ________________________________________________________ > NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html -- Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page! http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd (LU: 6th July 1999) CDP: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm (LU: 14th June 1999) Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa19995; 22 Aug 99 14:14 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IXSU-0005t7-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:14:50 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (OAA08547); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:12:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:12:17 +0100 Received: from wpdnt.webpage.com.au [203.36.219.100] by hermes via ESMTP (OAA14322); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:12:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from rossbenc (unverified [203.152.255.4]) by wpdnt.webpage.com.au (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.3.1) with SMTP id ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:10:44 +1000 Message-ID: <000f01beec9f$bf8e93e0$04ff98cb@rossbenc> From: Ross Bencina To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos Cc: sherlock_abc@netzero.net MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.omphalos Subject: Re: phasor Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:40:27 +0930 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Sherlock asks: >Could someone take a look at this and tell me where I went wrong? Ok, I'll have a go... > sr = 44100 > kr = 4410 > ksmps = 10 > nchnls = 1 ... >k1 phasor p5 ^^^^^^^^^this generates a moving phase from 0 to 1, for the notes given you have it running at 440 or 660 Hz >kpch table k1 * 12, 2 ^^^^^^^^^this generates an lookup on table 2 using the default raw lookup mode, which will mean you're only scanning the first 12 of 4096 values. you could try kpch table k1 * 12, 2, 1 but for values of k1 greater than (1./12.) or less than 0 the table lookup is clamped so you would end up with a lot of 0 >a1 oscil p4, cpspch(kpch), 2 ^^^^^^^^^^I'm not sure kpch is really an octave pitch class when modulated at audio rate (440Hz), but I'll accept that that's what you're trying to do. > out a1 > > endin >;Function 1 uses the GEN8 subroutine to compute a wave >f1 0 4096 10 1 >f2 0 4096 10 1 .5 .333 .25 .2 .166 .142 .125 .111 .1 .09 .083 .076 >.071 .066 .062 ^^^^^^^^^^^functions 1 and 2 above use GEN10 which isn't in line with your use of cpspch(), but otherwise would be OK unless you're trying to lookup a sequence of pitches from f2 (as Richard supposes in which case you shouldn't be using gen10, and gen 8 is going to glide all over the place - but perhaps that's what you're after. >;inst start duration p4 p5 p6 p7 p8 p9 > >i1 0 1.75 10000 440 >i1 2 1.75 20000 660 >e Ross. Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa20021; 22 Aug 99 14:35 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IWhw-0003hI-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 13:26:44 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (OAA11554); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:31:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:31:30 +0100 Received: from mail8.lax.netzero.net [209.247.162.41] by hermes via SMTP (OAA04934); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:31:28 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 13987 invoked by uid 0); 22 Aug 1999 13:31:15 -0000 Received: from pppa57-montgomery2-5r11.saturn.bbn.com (HELO netzero.net) (4.10.109.103) by mail8.lax.netzero.net with SMTP; 22 Aug 1999 13:31:15 -0000 Message-ID: <37BFFC90.EA162773@netzero.net> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:35:14 -0500 From: Sherlock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Dobson , "csound@maths.ex.ac.uk" Subject: Re: phasor References: <37BFE3E5.1A0E8763@netzero.net> <37BFF6BC.B6CD2C1F@cableinet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I just found the sample from the Csound Reference Manuel. Sorry, I was going by what the book was showing. I understand now. What I'm expecting is a sound. Any sound. Richard Dobson wrote: > > You don't say what you are expecting, so it's difficult to answer this, > but what you are getting is a very low frequency signal - som four > cycles per score line. On the face of it, your value for kpch ranges > from 12 down to 0.99 and less, so maybe you need a different scaling > calculation. Drop 22050 by 12 octaves, and you do get down comfortably > below the human frequency range. > > Your f2 table has 16 elements, but you are scaling the phasor by 12, is > that intentional? If you scale kpch by 12,24 or whatever, you can get > something audible - but I still cannot say if it what you want! > > Richard Dobson > > Sherlock wrote: > > > > Could someone take a look at this and tell me where I went wrong? > > > > sr = 44100 > > kr = 4410 > > ksmps = 10 > > nchnls = 1 > > > > instr 1 > > k1 phasor p5 > > kpch table k1 * 12, 2 > > a1 oscil p4, cpspch(kpch), 2 > > out a1 > > > > endin > > > > ;Function 1 uses the GEN8 subroutine to compute a wave > > f1 0 4096 10 1 > > f2 0 4096 10 1 .5 .333 .25 .2 .166 .142 .125 .111 .1 .09 .083 .076 > > .071 .066 .062 > > > > ;inst start duration p4 p5 p6 p7 p8 p9 > > > > i1 0 1.75 10000 440 > > i1 2 1.75 20000 660 > > e > > ________________________________________________________ > > NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? > > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > -- > Test your DAW with my Soundcard Attrition Page! > http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/rwd (LU: 6th July 1999) > CDP: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjpf/CDP/CDP.htm (LU: 14th June 1999) ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa20037; 22 Aug 99 14:43 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IXu1-0005tB-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:43:17 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (OAA13048); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:41:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:40:59 +0100 Received: from grynet.passagen.se [195.163.107.36] by hermes via ESMTP (OAA09265); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:40:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from hem.passagen.se (z20-5-202.sbbs2.net [212.112.5.202]) by grynet.passagen.se (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA22273 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:40:54 +0200 (MDT) Message-ID: <37BFFF31.19A8F7EF@hem.passagen.se> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:46:25 +0200 From: rasmus ekman Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Csound list Subject: Re: schedule, schedwhen - bug report References: <001401beebe1$a8710260$343d883e@internetpc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk richard bowers wrote: > > I understand that the opcodes schedule and schedwhen will only operate once > in a single call to the instrument containing them. Is that correct? Yes. schedule only works at i-time and schedwhen has an internal switch that is set to "off" after generating the event. Note that these opcodes are rather buggy: First, they can not create deferred events (by setting i/kwhen > 0), so the events are always started immediately. Any attempt to defer events will give them wrong ringtime, namely i/kwhen + i/kdur, while the turnoff time will be correctly set to start time+dur, which means the instr will be around (at least) from generation time through to deferred time + dur (ie def.time + p3). (Programmers note: As far as I can determine, there is no simple way of creating deferred events from an opcode context in Csound, so I wouldn't care to try to fix this feature, rather disallow it until the rest is working.) Secondly, the generated events will not be turned off correctly, but be left hanging, unless there has been some "real" score (or midi or line input) event in the meantime. Prognotes: This is a complication in any Csound event generation from an opcode. Event turnoff is not handled by kperf() (k-rate performance), but by playevents() (the score event scheduler, which calls kperf() to run until next score event). kperf() returns only for new events or for event turnoff occasions, but may be expired early by "realtime" (midi, midi file or line input) events. Search for the variable "sensType" in sources if you want to see how this works. Both sched* ugens call schedofftim() to set the turnoff time for the generated event. The time is indeed set, but this is no help since kperf() as noted doesn't check for turnoff. It does happen to work for schedule since this opcode generates events at i-time, and so will have the turnoff logged in playevents() for free before the first k-cycle of the calling instr. My solution to this problem (yes, I've been working on and off for the last few weeks to create an opcode to generate events at k-rate) is to define a new "realtime" event, and do some changes to playevents() and kperf() to have it handled. Not tested enough for publishing yet, as I for one don't think that the compiler does all necessary QA... Thirdly, since they were created by copying a fair chunk of Csound core code (the insert() func.) and doing some changes to that (rather than setting up some scheme which involves calling this function), they are (and will keep getting) out of synch with changes in that code, specifically, I believe recent stuff like cpuprc and maxalloc will not work correctly for instr's that have had events generated by sched* ugens. Finally, schedwhen shifts the arguments so that p4= p3, p5= intended p4 etc in the generated instrument. This one is trivial to fix (it has already been done for schedule at one time). In conclusion, besides wondering what the point of these opcodes is, I'm curious as to whether they were tested _at_all_ before publishing? (Usually I don't complain about stuff without trying to fix it, but after looking at them I simply don't like them, and think they should be taken out and sh (ahem deprecated and deleted)). Demonstration: The below csd file should generate one 2.33 second beep after 0.5 seconds, and one after 5 seconds (modulus k-precision). Just see what you get... Regards, re ---------------------- schedbug.csd - demo some bugs in sched* opcodes ---------------------- ; ; sr = 22050 kr = 441 ksmps = 50 nchnls = 1 instr 1 ; Start i13 after .5 sec (not) schedule 13, .5, 2.33, 550, 0 endin instr 2 ; Start i3 after 1 sec ; Since this doesn't work, it starts after 4.0 instead of 5.0 secs ; It should be turned off after 2.33 secs, but hangs until next score event schedwhen 1, 13, 1, 2.33, 440 endin instr 13 ; itime is actual start time, p2 is the intended, ; and p4=p3, p5=p4 if started by schedwhen itime times print itime, p2, p3, p4, p5 ; Since p4 won't always be correct, we set a start pitch here kpitch line 440, p3, p4 ; Now we're naughty to rub in the point: this linseg continues beyond p3 ; - but the error shows even if you remove the last ", .5, 20000" args kamp linseg 25000, p3-.1, 25000, .1, 0, .5, 20000 ar oscili kamp, kpitch, 1 out ar endin f1 0 4096 10 1 i1 0 3.5 i2 4 6 f0 10 e Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa20568; 22 Aug 99 20:30 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IcFv-0003n3-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:22:11 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA06989); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:28:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:28:04 +0100 Received: from [199.203.20.14] by hermes via ESMTP (UAA08637); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:28:02 +0100 (BST) Received: by SHORE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:27:06 +0200 Message-ID: From: Oded Streigold To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: RE: cleaning recordings Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:26:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk The best noise reduction effect I know of is the noise reduction function in Samplitude. Oded. > -----Original Message----- > From: Kurt S Nelson [SMTP:kurtnelson2@juno.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:33 PM > To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk > Subject: cleaning recordings > > Dear Csounders: > > I am attempting to clean some noisey soundfiles using the dam opcode. > The signal (a piano piece off a CD) is not much above the noise floor of > the original recording. Hhaving not worked with compression or expansion > much in the past, I am having a hard time selecting values for the > threshold and compression ratios that result in a sound much better than > the original. Can anyone suggest any other opcodes or techniques for > audio cleaning (maybe the term "de-essing" applies here)? > > This is a project I am doing to practice for cleaning some old speeches > on reel-to-reel tapes, and to educate myself in general. Any suggestions > would be greatly appreciated. > > Sincerely, Kurt Nelson > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa20887; 22 Aug 99 23:53 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IgUg-0005y5-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:53:42 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (XAA11738); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:51:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:51:19 +0100 Received: from mail8.lax.netzero.net [209.247.162.41] by hermes via SMTP (XAA00326); Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:51:18 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 20043 invoked by uid 0); 22 Aug 1999 22:51:15 -0000 Received: from pppa40-montgomery1-4r15.saturn.bbn.com (HELO netzero.net) (4.10.103.6) by mail8.lax.netzero.net with SMTP; 22 Aug 1999 22:51:15 -0000 Message-ID: <37C07FF8.9F24391A@netzero.net> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:55:53 -0500 From: Sherlock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rasmus ekman , "csound@maths.ex.ac.uk" Subject: phasor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Exactly how does phasor work? I have changed it around since I last posted. Is is supposed to be used by an oscillator? That would be my next guess. ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21134; 23 Aug 99 2:42 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Ii3U-0003rR-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:33:44 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (CAA14059); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 02:39:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 02:39:26 +0100 Received: from law2-f219.hotmail.com [216.32.181.219] by hermes via SMTP (CAA11645); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 02:39:25 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 28315 invoked by uid 0); 23 Aug 1999 01:38:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19990823013849.28314.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.173.98.155 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:38:48 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.173.98.155] From: David Matthews To: hljmm@werewolf.net Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Algorithmic composition with csound Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:38:48 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Where can you get Keykit, and what platforms does it run on? >From: "Hans Mikelson" >To: >Subject: Re: Algorithmic composition with csound >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:15:36 -0500 > >Hi, > >I have been using keykit for alg-comp lately. It is midi based but will >work with midified Csound orc's. Keykit is very nice. > >Bye, >Hans Mikelson > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21218; 23 Aug 99 3:03 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IjSU-00060I-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:03:38 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (DAA17955); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:01:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:01:26 +0100 Received: from root@[200.32.101.214] by hermes via SMTP (DAA08481); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:01:17 +0100 (BST) Received: from telefax.com.ar (u196.telefax.com.ar [200.32.101.196]) by telefax.com.ar (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA05500 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:57:32 GMT Message-ID: <37C0ABDB.F63D9E52@telefax.com.ar> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:03:07 -0300 From: "M. Perticone" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Csound List Subject: Re: Algorithmic composition with csound References: <19990823013849.28314.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk hi, it runs on win9x and linux: http://209.233.20.72/keykit/index.html regards David Matthews wrote: > > Where can you get Keykit, and what platforms does it run on? > > >From: "Hans Mikelson" > >To: > >Subject: Re: Algorithmic composition with csound > >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:15:36 -0500 > > > >Hi, > > > >I have been using keykit for alg-comp lately. It is midi based but will > >work with midified Csound orc's. Keykit is very nice. > > > >Bye, > >Hans Mikelson > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21239; 23 Aug 99 3:16 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Iiax-0003rt-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 02:08:19 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (DAA03082); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:12:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:12:48 +0100 Received: from saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36] by hermes via ESMTP (DAA16478); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:12:47 +0100 (BST) Received: from [157.238.67.55] (157-238-67-055.il.verio.net [157.238.67.55]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA04184 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 21:12:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908230212.VAA04184@saba.wwa.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 21:17:24 -0600 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk From: "17.hzV.tRL.478" Subject: Re: Algorithmic composition with csound Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >Where can you get Keykit, and what platforms does it run on? http://www.nosuch.com/ hotmail platforms Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21390; 23 Aug 99 4:57 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IlEb-00062T-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 04:57:25 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (EAA09373); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 04:55:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 04:55:04 +0100 Received: from falla.videotron.net [205.151.222.106] by hermes via ESMTP (EAA14340); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 04:55:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from tiger ([207.253.118.22]) by falla.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.03.02.17.58.p5) with ESMTP id <0FGW0052VG7PIO@falla.videotron.net> for csound@maths.ex.ac.uk; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by tiger (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 86A8B1B84E; Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:55:00 -0400 From: Antoine Lefebvre Subject: init error To: Mailing List Reply-to: antoinelefebvre@softhome.net Message-id: <19990822235500.A348@tiger> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk The following orc give me the following error INIT ERROR: oscili: not initialized and I don't see the solutio... instr 1 aout init 0 asig in ; get the live input krms rms asig if krms > 700 kgoto startinst goto end startinst: aout oscili 10000, 440, 1 end: out aout endin It is possible to initialise oscili to do what I want, trigger an oscillator with the input rms. thanks -- Antoine Lefebvre antoinelefebvre@softhome.net http://pages.infinit.net/linux/rocket/index.html http://pages.infinit.net/linux/music/music.html Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21690; 23 Aug 99 8:53 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Iov2-000690-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:53:28 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (IAA09747); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:50:55 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:50:46 +0100 Received: from root@news.cube.net [194.97.64.2] by hermes via SMTP (IAA09022); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:50:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from orpheus.selene.cube.net([193.149.39.225]) (2052 bytes) by salyko.cube.net via smtpd with P:smtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:50:33 +0200 (MEST) (Smail-3.2.0.106 1999-Mar-31 #2 built 1999-Aug-6) Received: from hermes by orpheus.selene.cube.net (NX5.67f2/NX3.0M) id AA22131; Mon, 23 Aug 99 09:50:07 +0200 Message-Id: <9908230750.AA22131@orpheus.selene.cube.net> Received: by hermes.selene.cube.net (NX5.67g/NX3.0X) id AA00249; Mon, 23 Aug 99 09:50:04 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=NeXT-Mail-1815379366-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148) From: Peter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Neub=E4cker?= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 99 09:50:03 +0200 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: phasor Reply-To: peter@orpheus.selene.cube.net References: <37C07FF8.9F24391A@netzero.net> Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk --NeXT-Mail-1815379366-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Exactly how does phasor work? >I have changed it around since I last posted. >Is is supposed to be used by an oscillator? >That would be my next guess. A phasor just outputs cyclic values between 0 an 1 for the given frequency and is mostly used to index a table. If you use the output of phasor as audio signal you wuld get a sawtooth wave. phasor and table together do what an oscil does internally. Peter --NeXT-Mail-1815379366-1 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ohlfs>Exactly how does phasor work? >I have changed it around since I last posted. >Is is supposed to be used by an oscillator? >That would be my next guess. A phasor just outputs cyclic values between 0 an 1 for the given frequency and is mostly used to index a table. If you use the output of phasor as audio signal you wuld get a sawtooth wave. phasor and table together do what an oscil does internally. Peter --NeXT-Mail-1815379366-1-- Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21731; 23 Aug 99 9:14 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IoB0-00042W-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:05:54 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA11022); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:12:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:11:54 +0100 Received: from root@news.cube.net [194.97.64.2] by hermes via SMTP (JAA08334); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:11:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from orpheus.selene.cube.net([193.149.39.225]) (1379 bytes) by salyko.cube.net via smtpd with P:smtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:11:51 +0200 (MEST) (Smail-3.2.0.106 1999-Mar-31 #2 built 1999-Aug-6) Received: from hermes by orpheus.selene.cube.net (NX5.67f2/NX3.0M) id AA22138; Mon, 23 Aug 99 10:11:24 +0200 Message-Id: <9908230811.AA22138@orpheus.selene.cube.net> Received: by hermes.selene.cube.net (NX5.67g/NX3.0X) id AA00256; Mon, 23 Aug 99 10:11:20 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148) From: Peter =?iso-8859-1?Q?Neub=E4cker?= Date: Mon, 23 Aug 99 10:11:19 +0200 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: tablew bug Reply-To: peter@orpheus.selene.cube.net Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I just came across a bug in the tablew opcode - Robin Whittle documented it in his sourcecode, but I think it does't appear in the documentation: If you want to write a constant value to a table, you have to make it a k-rate variable. So if you write: tablew 0.5, kindex, 1 that will not work (always...) - instead you should write: knumber init 0.5 tablew knumber, kindex, 1 I think this should be mentioned in the manual. I don't know if it's the same with the index - any experience? Peter Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21796; 23 Aug 99 10:00 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IpyA-0006Dv-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:00:46 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA14174); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:57:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:57:29 +0100 Received: from root@lix.intercom.es [194.179.21.2] by hermes via ESMTP (JAA05785); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:57:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from intercom.es (iv2-59.intercom.es [195.76.206.59]) by lix.intercom.es (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA23650 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:05:04 +0100 Message-ID: <37C03B22.1796A79@intercom.es> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:02:11 +0200 From: Josep M Comajuncosas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Insisting on PITCH X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id JAA05785 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I=B4m sorry to insist on the topic, but... does anyone has a working example of a pitchtracker using the PITCH opcode, or anything else? I=B4m really needing it! Tnx -- Josep M Comajuncosas C/ Circumval.lacio 75 08790 Gelida - Penedes Catalunya - SPAIN tel. 93 7792243 e-mail: gelida@intercom.es ET Informatica de Sistemes e-mail: jcomajuncosas@campus.uoc.es http://members.tripod.com/csound/ Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21810; 23 Aug 99 10:03 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IowF-00048O-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:54:43 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA16304); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:00:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:00:30 +0100 Received: from root@lix.intercom.es [194.179.21.2] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA13431); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:00:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from intercom.es (iv2-59.intercom.es [195.76.206.59]) by lix.intercom.es (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA24406; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:07:49 +0100 Message-ID: <37C10D18.1BCB0644@intercom.es> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:58:00 +0200 From: Josep M Comajuncosas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: antoinelefebvre@softhome.net CC: Mailing List Subject: Re: init error References: <19990822235500.A348@tiger> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id KAA13431 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Relace kgoto by goto to avoid skipping of the initialisation at i-time. Antoine Lefebvre escribi=F3: > The following orc give me the following error > INIT ERROR: oscili: not initialized > > and I don't see the solutio... > > instr 1 > aout init 0 > asig in ; get the live input > krms rms asig > if krms > 700 kgoto startinst > goto end > startinst: > aout oscili 10000, 440, 1 > end: > out aout > endin > > It is possible to initialise oscili to do what I want, trigger an oscil= lator with the input rms. > > thanks > -- > Antoine Lefebvre > antoinelefebvre@softhome.net > http://pages.infinit.net/linux/rocket/index.html > http://pages.infinit.net/linux/music/music.html -- Josep M Comajuncosas C/ Circumval.lacio 75 08790 Gelida - Penedes Catalunya - SPAIN tel. 93 7792243 e-mail: gelida@intercom.es ET Informatica de Sistemes e-mail: jcomajuncosas@campus.uoc.es http://members.tripod.com/csound/ Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21851; 23 Aug 99 10:25 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IqMK-0006EW-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:25:44 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA17548); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:23:05 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:22:55 +0100 Received: from root@news.cube.net [194.97.64.2] by hermes via SMTP (KAA05900); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:22:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from orpheus.selene.cube.net([193.149.39.225]) (2493 bytes) by salyko.cube.net via smtpd with P:smtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) id for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:22:53 +0200 (MEST) (Smail-3.2.0.106 1999-Mar-31 #2 built 1999-Aug-6) Received: from hermes by orpheus.selene.cube.net (NX5.67f2/NX3.0M) id AA22215; Mon, 23 Aug 99 11:22:27 +0200 Message-Id: <9908230922.AA22215@orpheus.selene.cube.net> Received: by hermes.selene.cube.net (NX5.67g/NX3.0X) id AA00322; Mon, 23 Aug 99 11:22:24 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148) From: Peter Neubacker Date: Mon, 23 Aug 99 11:22:23 +0200 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: new adsynt opcode Reply-To: peter@orpheus.selene.cube.net Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I just finished another new opcode for additive synthesis. It's purpose is to enable an instrument to generate synthesis parameters at k-time (or i-time) that are written to tables with the tablew opcode and that are being read by adsynt. See decription below. It would be nice to have it in the next release - if you want to use it now and compile it yourself you can find the sources at: http://www.harmonik.de/femc/femcdown.html Peter adsynt -------- ar adsynt kamp, kcps, ifn, ifreqtbl, iamptbl, icnt [, iphs] DESCRIPTION This opcode performs additive synthesis with an arbitrary number of partials (not necessarily harmonic). Frequency and amplitude of each partial is given in the two tables provided. The purpose of this opcode is to have an instrument generate synthesis parameters at k-time and write them to the global parameter tables with the tablew opcode. INITIALIZATION ifn - a function table, usually a sine. Table values are not interpolated for performance reasons, so you better provide a larger table for better quality. ifreqtbl - an arbitrary function table. Size has to be at least icnt. Table can contain frequency values for each partial at start, but is usually used for generating parameters at runtime with tablew. Frequencies must be relative to kcps. iamptbl - same as ifreqtbl for relative partial amplitudes. icnt - number of partials to be generated. iphs - initial phase if each oscillator, if -1 initialization is skipped. If > 1 all phases will be initialized with a random value. PERFORMANCE kamp - Amplitude of note. kcps - Base frequency of note. Partial frequencies will be relative to kcps. Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21859; 23 Aug 99 10:29 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IpLN-00049A-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:20:41 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA18451); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:25:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:25:10 +0100 Received: from root@jenny.ksk.sala.se [193.180.172.20] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA02680); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:25:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from [193.180.172.36] (dialin10.ksk.sala.se [193.180.172.36]) by jenny.ksk.sala.se (8.9.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07883 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:25:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:24:48 +0100 To: Csound list From: Lars Luthman Subject: Unified file format Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I sent this message yesterday, but I haven't seen it on the list, so here it is again. -- I was looking at some Csound compositions in unified file format (.csd), and I saw that they had start and end tags that looked just like HTML. I thought, "Cool! Does that mean that I can put a Csound composition in a HTML file and maybe write some words about the composition, so the same file can be read as a webpage in my browser and given to Csound for rendering? That would be very convenient." I copied a simple CSD file into the body of a HTML file and tried rendering it with Csound (I changed the file name extension to .csd). It didn't work, of course (as I would have known if I had read the manual). Perf complained "Unknown command: " (or something like that, it froze before finishing the line). Strange, it didn't say anything about "" being an unknown command, and that line appeared before "". I tried moving the contents of the CSD file almost to the beginning of the file, between the "" and the "" tags, and this time it was rendered without any problems. Later, when I read the manual, I found out that it actually shouldn't have worked the second time either, since the first line in a CSD file must be "" and the last line must be "". But I still think it would be a great if I could put a Csound composition in a webpage, and don't have to copy and paste the composition itself to a new textfile when I want to render it. So I have a suggestion. Couldn't Csound ignore everything outside the "" tags? That way a composition could be incorporated in any kind of file (e.g. HTML, ASCII text, Word or PDF documents). Maybe someone could write a web browser plugin that played Csound compositions! What do you think? I'm afraid I don't have the time or the programming skills to do any of these changes, but I sure would use it if it was done. --ll Received: from shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21950; 23 Aug 99 11:21 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by shaun.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11IrEK-0006G5-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:21:32 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (LAA00420); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:19:07 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:18:53 +0100 Received: from saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36] by hermes via ESMTP (LAA11832); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:18:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from [157.238.67.3] (157-238-67-003.il.verio.net [157.238.67.3]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id FAA17966 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 05:18:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908231018.FAA17966@saba.wwa.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 5 (Lowest) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 05:23:18 -0600 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk From: "17.hzV.tRL.478" Subject: Re: Insisting on PITCH Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk >I=B4m sorry to insist on the topic, but... does anyone has a working >example of a pitchtracker using the PITCH opcode, or anything else? I=B4m >really needing it! >Tnx here is that answer [one may need bifocals to read this e-mail] Received: from wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21984; 23 Aug 99 11:53 BST Received: from [144.173.6.14] (helo=exeter.ac.uk) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Iqet-0004DF-00 for jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:44:55 +0100 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (LAA15962); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:51:23 +0100 (BST) Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:51:10 +0100 Received: from saba.wwa.com [198.49.174.36] by hermes via ESMTP (LAA13094); Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:51:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from [157.238.67.3] (157-238-67-003.il.verio.net [157.238.67.3]) by saba.wwa.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id FAA21623 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 05:51:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908231051.FAA21623@saba.wwa.com> X-Sender: integer@www.god-emil.dk (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 05:55:47 -0600 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk From: "17.hzV.tRL.478" Subject: Re: Ousting PITCH \ losing the fundamental Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk 0.5 ua! betu!n real!t + p!tch real!z+t!k z!ner! + l!ght!ng 2 kult!vat dze !luz!on >>I need to know how the fundamental frequency of a sound can be detected. >>Correct me if I'm wrong: The fundamental frequency is the lowest frequency >>harmony, from which all the other harmonies can be detected by multiplying >>it. >>I though at first that it can be detected, by searching for the highest >>amplitude frequency, but I found out, both from experience, and from looki= ng >>at the SHARC timbre database, that very often the highest amplitude >>frequency isn't the fundamental, the highest amplitude frequency could be >>the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th harmony for example. >>I guess you can find it by using a peek search algorithm, but I'm looking >>for a simpler way. >>If there is no other way then peek search, I would already ask, can anyone >>give me clues or references for peek search algorithms? >> >>10x! > >here is that answer >[one may need bifocals to read this e-mail] p!tch - abrev!az!on ov real!t! deja !t =3D d!f!c!l 2 `trk` 1 abrev!az!on az truth =3D z!ngulr memorabl fantaz!e. =3D !f dez!rd ma! zkan zorsez ov zvrl `p!tch` trk kode konta!nrz ava!lbl on l!ne. fft baszd 4 dze mzt prt humanz !=3D posez 1 ef!z!ent del ke!. [az truth =3D z!ngulr memorabl fantaz!e] p!tch =3D 1 mozt out datd abrev!az!on dzoze onl! 4rom 1 odr epok dzn kurnt =3D kould posz!bl! akzept az 1 val!d abrev!z!on ov data. future =3D belongz 2 1 ecztravagant l!e =3D glass bead game. truth =3D 1 zubt!l l!e. csound =3D dze b!fokalz on reku!rmnt 4 zert!tud due 2 1 losz ov $MachinePrecision 16 $MachineEpsilon 2.22044604925031308`*^-16 a 1 b 1.` b =3D 1. + 2 $MachineEpsilon 1.00000000000000044` a =3D=3D b True 0.5 zekond+ lngr reakz!on t!mez obzrvd !n kogn!t!v prozez!ng =3D 1 puzl 4rom dze ztandpo!nt ov kondukz!on t!mez + z!napt!k dla!z. kort!kokort!kl !m.prov.mnt : : koruptd f!loz : : dez!ntegraz!on au.revo!r. [+ neceszar! engl!sh verz+?] - samo poznavanje teh orod!j lahko zagotavlja zenskam kreat!vno rabo elektronskega omrezja za bogatenje druzbenega !n kulturnega z!vljenja _\- m9ndfukc.macht.fre!. - \| \| - - \| \| - fr2ktur \| \| - - \| \| - - \| \| - - \| \| - dze zeparaz!on betu!n obzervaz!on + theor! n 17 n 14 n 11 n 8 n 5 n 2 n -1 n 2 n 5 n 8 n 11 n 14 n 17 n 20 n 10 23 t 20 t 17 t 14 t 11 t 8 t 5 t 2 t -1 t 2 t 5 t 8 t 11 t 14 t 17 t 20 t 23 . 20 . 17 . 14 . 11 . 8 . 5 . 2 . -1 . 2 . 5 . 8 . 11 . 14 . 17 . 20 . 500 - dze konzp!rasz! ov s!lensz part!kulr charm ov dze prev!ouz wak!ng ztajt \|=7F=7F\| \|=7F=7F=3D=3D=7F=7F\| v ! R u s \|=7F=7F\| p u N K t s y m m e t r +3 [k 0 r ; u p t -1 p n