| [It is clear that aesthetic values are at work here. For the purposes of
this email (only) I am subscribing to the belief that "machine-like music"
is counterproductive to expressing human emotion. That discussion is a
whole different thread for the "Sound aesthetics mailing list."]
### -My reply follows quotes- At 7:31 -0700 4/29/98, you wrote:
>The problem is that most on this list are hardcore programmers and math
>whizs. [context snipped] What isn't said is that you also need 4+ years of
>college level math, and be fluent in several computor languages to do
>anything RESEMBLING music. Thats why you don't see many musicians who
>think in terms of emotion, visions, fellings etc. say they used Csound to
>compose their latest work.
Let me begin by saying, "I feel your pain" and I certainly understand why
you would feel this way. (By subscribing to this list you obviously see
value in Csound.) Yet I think it is important to remember that a composer
writing for a [good] performer has it easy: the performer knows how to
play. A simple phrase mark is interpreted into simultaneous changes in
dynamic, timbre and tempo. The result can be stirring and the composer
didn't have to specify all of those parameter changes. They were added by
the performer and the composer could safely *assume* that would happen
without knowing the details of how. Now lets take a composer who has been
very successful as a pianist and has written successful music for herself
but she has decided to write an orchestra piece. This is going to take
significant time to learn orchestration including attending umpteen
rehearsals while following the score to learn the intricacies of orchestral
timbrel control. She has to learn the *technique* of orchestration. Just
like scales on a piano, the technique itself is not musical, but good
technique enables facile and deep musical expression.
>If you had a vision that was powerfull and you wanted to capture it, it
>would surely be lost by the time you wrestle with the latest trigonomic
>equation to pan your sound etc. You cannot compute emotions. Emotion is a
>human experience, it cannot and will not ever be engineered in software.
>Thus you cannot engineer music. When you do it will sound machine-like
>which much of computor music does.
Again, this comes down to technique and practice. If the composer becomes
facile with the latest trig. equation, then that particular bit of math
will no longer get in the way of the composition. The composer could
decide that this composition would benefit more from time composing, and
that learning the latest trig. equation could wait for the next
composition. That's good too; it's important to stop studying pure
technique from time-to-time and write music with what you've got. A Csound
composer can learn technique in many ways including studying mathematical
DSP theory, composition by trial-and-error, studying other peoples orc/sco
files and ideally, as a combination of all three. Note that this provides
technique in Csound, not composition. Like orchestration technique, it
merely facilitates musical expression. If the composer has nothing musical
to say, great Csound technique will help the composer say "nothing" very
effectively. But if a composer has something to say, poor technique will
hinder that expression. As with any flexible musical tool (like a piano or
violin), good technique takes time and practice. As a pianist and an
organist I can tell you that knowledge of the engineering behind those
instruments has also helped me. If composition doesn't involve
engineering, sound production certainly does and without sound production
the music never hits anyone's ears.
>Remember we're all going to get reduced to a wave file. Noone is going to
>care what you used to create it except perhaps your peers. The question is
>does that wave speak or communicate something of HUMAN
>value........................... end of rant
And, yes, ultimately Csound is just another tool. When the sound pressure
wave hits the air the tool itself makes no difference. It's the *use* and
result of the tool which are important. What does (12 * sqrt(2)) sound
like? It all depends on the context.
/----Charles D. Starrett-----\ "I do not feel that
| / | ____ | | ____ | my research suffered unduly
| /\--| | |-| | | from the fact that I enjoyed it."
| / \ | |____| | |___ |
| | | | ___|___ | --Daniel Miller,
\--starrett@fas.harvard.edu--/ Modernity--an Ethnographic Approach
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From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
To: vind@generation.net
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: <199804301557.LAA16236@bigbang.Generation.NET> (message from
David Vincelli on Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:55:47 +0000)
Subject: Re: question about moog opcode
References: <199804301557.LAA16236@bigbang.Generation.NET>
Date: Fri, 1 May 98 14:43:16 BST
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You should use a table in the score, annd the variable is a table number.
sr = 22050
kr = 22050
ksmps = 1
nchnls = 1
instr 16
a1 moog 31129.60, 440, 0.85, 0.0001, 0.6, 8, 6, 7, 1
out a1
endin
------------------------------------------------------------------------
f1 0 256 10 1
f6 0 8192 1 "/usr/people/jpff/MUSIC/Stanford_Phys/rawwaves/mandpluk.raw" 0 4 1
f7 0 256 1 "/usr/people/jpff/MUSIC/Stanford_Phys/rawwaves/impuls20.raw" 0 4 1
i16 0 3
e
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To: Charles Starrett , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
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From: tolve
Subject: Re:Detailed parameters/Overwhelming complexity (long response)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:28:07 -0400
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Charles Starrett wrote:
>...Just
>like scales on a piano, the technique itself is not musical, but good
>technique enables facile and deep musical expression...
believe it was schoenberg that said that technique and expression were the
same thing.
maybe something to do with what the chinese call "chi" and the japanese
"ki." perhaps the largest and most difficult words to define in language.
tolve
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From: tolve
Subject: Re: Sparks
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:21:11 -0400
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Mike Berry wrote
>The other issue is how the resulting impulse response is affected by the
>walls of the room rapidly accelerating away from the microphones. Expanding
>universe-like doppler shift. Which brings up the use of extremely dense
>matter, to both generate the impulse and balance the forces that are causing
>the walls to accelerate.
But then there's the age old question: "But how does it sound?"
tolve
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From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
In-Reply-To: (message from Erik Spjut
on Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:52:02 -0700)
Subject: Re: reshaping envelopes
References:
Date: Fri, 1 May 98 17:16:09 BST
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I thought that the follow opcode was for this kind of reshaping. Have
not used it for a while though.
=John ff
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:43:08 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Nicola Bernardini
To: Csound mailing list
Subject: Re: Sparks
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On Fri, 1 May 1998, Larry Troxler wrote:
[snip]
> The best way to think of this, is to make an analogy to the C funtion
> "printf()". Yes, this function does indeed return some value. I think it
> is the number of characters printed, or something like that. The point
> is, that nobody cares. While the function does indeed return a value, we
I do not agree: if *you* were checking the return value of your printf()
against the number of chars expected at the output, you would be able
to discern that your output device is being trashed by the crumbling walls.
Ah, and while you are at it, you should also check errno for ECAUGHTFIRE.
Just in case.
nicb
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicola Bernardini
E-mail: nicb@axnet.it
Re graphics: A picture is worth 10K words -- but only those to describe
the picture. Hardly any sets of 10K words can be adequately described
with pictures.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:30:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Qian Chen
Subject: hrtfer
To: Csound
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Hi,:)
I have a question on hrtfer.
When I use hrtfer, csound always tells me:
INIT ERROR in instr 1: cannot load c:/af\HRTFcompact.
It seems that I should have generate an analysis file. But how? Or
what have I done wrongly? Could someone help me?
Any comment is welcomed.
==
Qian Chen
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 19:39:31 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Guy Van Belle
To: Qian Chen
Cc: Csound
Subject: Re: hrtfer
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> I have a question on hrtfer.
>
> When I use hrtfer, csound always tells me:
> INIT ERROR in instr 1: cannot load c:/af\HRTFcompact.
> It seems that I should have generate an analysis file. But how? Or
> what have I done wrongly? Could someone help me?
>
> Any comment is welcomed.
Learn Max. Max won't do that to you. Better for your creativity anyway.
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From: Grant Covell
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: RE: how it does sound...
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:15:55 -0400
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OK...
I really didn't mean to ruffle anyone by positing "But how does it
sound", and I certaintly wasn't thinking of spawning an "emotion" vs.
"science" discussion. The emotional value of the music didn't enter into
the original post for me, I was really genuinely curious as to how such
music might sound and so just asked.
After all, Stravinsky posited that his music really wasn't about
anything and had no emotion (I'm glossing here, I know) and I know we on
this list could argue ceaslessly about that.
But conversly, there's an anecdote about a student of Schoenberg's who
excitedly brought to Schoenberg a Schenkerian analysis of the first
movement of Beethoven's Eroica (a favorite piece of Schoenberg's): After
considering the analysis of the first movement which the student had
reduced to three chords (I-6, V, I), Schoenberg is said to have
remarked: "But where are my favorite parts?"
We all know that extensive applications of science/technology can result
in greatly emotional music--Xenakis' _Legende d'Eer_ was already
mentioned--it's just that because this is an email list using text and
words we are all hampered by easily sharing the sounds we produce when
our scos/orcs and setups aren't shareable.
Grant.
===
Mike Berry wrote
>The other issue is how the resulting impulse response is affected by
the
>walls of the room rapidly accelerating away from the microphones.
Expanding
>universe-like doppler shift. Which brings up the use of extremely
dense
>matter, to both generate the impulse and balance the forces that are
causing
>the walls to accelerate.
But then there's the age old question: "But how does it sound?"
tolve
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:31:44 +0100
From: Richard Dobson
Organization: Composers Desktop project
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To: Csound mailing list
Subject: Re: Detailed parameters/ Emotions
References: <199805010327.WAA02984@xochi.tezcat.com>
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WOW! Seven moral imperatives in one posting - clearly a record. I think
the best place for these sorts of duscussions is a congenial cafe,
preferably on the rive gauche, with plenty of wine and crusty bread. I
am not at all convinced it works over email. :-)
Richard Dobson
=cw4t7abs wrote:
> > I put forth that
>
> wank()
>
> >emotions are perhaps overrated,
> >mastery of one's soul.
>
> soul=eRR.oR
>
> >This is what many composers, especially modern ones,
>
> composers, especially modern ones=pozerz
>
> >This is why CSound is one of mankind's greatest creations to date.
>
> CSound=eRR.oR.
>
> math = fa!ld attempt at Detailed parameters
> fasc!zm = fa!ld attempt at Detailed humanz
> amer!kka = fa!ld attempt at c!v!l!zat!on = barbar!zm
>
> >I think I'm going to cry.
>
> [thank you for your] bandwidth ag!tat!on
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 21:00:51 +0200
From: rasmus ekman
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To: Csound
Subject: Re: question about moog opcode
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jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote:
>
> You should use a table in the score, annd the variable is a table number.
>
> f6 0 8192 1 "/usr/people/jpff/MUSIC/Stanford_Phys/rawwaves/mandpluk.raw" 0 4 1
> f7 0 256 1 "/usr/people/jpff/MUSIC/Stanford_Phys/rawwaves/impuls20.raw" 0 4 1
...and you'll find those files at
ftp://ftp.maths.bath.ac.uk/pub/dream/documentation/sounds/modelling/
re
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 21:00:54 +0200
From: rasmus ekman
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Guy Van Belle wrote:
>
> (Qian wrote)
> > I have a question on hrtfer.
> >
> > When I use hrtfer, csound always tells me:
> > INIT ERROR in instr 1: cannot load c:/af\HRTFcompact.
> > It seems that I should have generate an analysis file. But how? Or
> > what have I done wrongly? Could someone help me?
> >
> > Any comment is welcomed.
>
> Learn Max. Max won't do that to you. Better for your creativity anyway.
Now this was a most useful and kind response.
Qian, you need the file hrtfcomp (as you may guess).
It's at
ftp://ftp.maths.bath.ac.uk/pub/dream/utilities/Analysis/
or ftp://ftp.musique.umontreal.ca/pub/mirrors/dream/utilities/Analysis/
Put in the same directory as your Csound binary.
re
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Subject: Re: Detailed parameters/ Emotions
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>WOW! Seven moral imperatives in one posting - clearly a record. I think
>the best place for these sorts of duscussions is a congenial cafe,
>preferably on the rive gauche, with plenty of wine and crusty bread. I
>am not at all convinced it works over email. :-)
Xerox PARC focuses on multimedia as a tool to help people connect
to one another. The members of PARC's Jupiter project
are developing
a collaborative multimedia environment, in which a
simple scripting
language lets any user create dynamic objects and
virtual rooms for
interaction. Jupiter sends 50 or more simultaneous
video and audio
connections to every desktop, creating the atmosphere
of the virtual
coffeepot. ("Around the coffeepot" has been
identified by our
anthropologists as the most creative place in an office.)
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>> >emotions are perhaps overrated,
>> >mastery of one's soul.
Microsoft's chief technology officer, Nathan Myhrvold,
publicly speculated on whether he had a soul (his own
and the common
consensus: no), the Mars Pathfinder's chief geologist
talked about how
much he loved the little Mars rover, and a famous New
York poster
designer considered the transcendence of classical
rules of art by making
the audience listen to an eccentric performance of a
Mozart piano sonata
by Glenn Gould.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:11:21 -0600
To: Csound mailing list
From: =cw4t7abs
Subject: Pascaline calculating machine
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> This is why CSound is one of mankind's greatest creations to date.
> I think I'm going to cry.
visibly ailing Mr.
Graham talked at length about Blaise Pascal: Pascal,
he said, was kind
of a 17th-century technology entrepreneur. He had
invented differential
calculus and probability theory, created the
Pascaline calculating
machine, and built Paris's first buses. "But in the
end," Mr. Graham
said, "Pascal knew that technology could not solve
man's great
questions: why we suffer, why there is evil, and why
we die. He
trusted, instead, in Jesus. As I have learned to do."
Mr. Graham ended by saying he would not live to see
the world that
TED's attendees had been so enthusiastically
imagining; he was dying.
But he hoped that we would remember the example of
Pascal. There
wasn't a dry eye in the house.
mankind's greatest creation to date = 1.5.98+o
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 23:16:48 +0100
From: Richard Dobson
Organization: Composers Desktop project
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Subject: Re: Pascaline calculating machine
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Yes, yes, etc; .. but this is all taking things a little ~too~ literally, isn't
it? Are we not all allowed to be a little rhetorical and exuberant from time to
time? Almost every happy child avers that his/her mother is 'the best mum in
the world' - do we start quibbling about it, or just enjoy the devotion?
I still vote for wine, over coffee...
Richard Dobson
=cw4t7abs wrote:
> > This is why CSound is one of mankind's greatest creations to date.
> > I think I'm going to cry.
>
> visibly ailing Mr.
> Graham talked at length about Blaise Pascal: Pascal,
> he said, was kind
> of a 17th-century technology entrepreneur. He had
> invented differential
> calculus and probability theory, created the
> Pascaline calculating
> machine, and built Paris's first buses. "But in the
> end," Mr. Graham
> said, "Pascal knew that technology could not solve
> man's great
> questions: why we suffer, why there is evil, and why
> we die. He
> trusted, instead, in Jesus. As I have learned to do."
>
> Mr. Graham ended by saying he would not live to see
> the world that
> TED's attendees had been so enthusiastically
> imagining; he was dying.
> But he hoped that we would remember the example of
> Pascal. There
> wasn't a dry eye in the house.
>
> mankind's greatest creation to date = 1.5.98+o
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:34:19 -0600
To: Csound mailing list
From: =cw4t7abs
Subject: Re: Pascaline calculating machine
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>Yes, yes, etc; .. but this is all taking things a little ~too~ literally, isn't
>it? Are we not all allowed to be a little rhetorical and exuberant from time to
>time? Almost every happy child avers that his/her mother is 'the best mum in
>the world' - do we start quibbling about it, or just enjoy the devotion?
>
>I still vote for wine, over coffee...
Organization: Composers Desktop project
Title: the world is not a desktop
What is the metaphor for the computer of the future? The intelligent agent?
The television (multimedia)? The 3-D
graphics world (virtual reality)? The StarTrek ubiquitous voice computer?
The GUI desktop, honed and refined? The
machine that magically grants our wishes? I think the right answer is "none
of the above", because I think all of these
concepts share a basic flaw: they make the computer visible.
A good tool is an invisible tool. By invisible, I mean that the tool does
not intrude on your consciousness; you focus
on the task, not the tool. Eyeglasses are a good tool -- you look at the
world, not the eyeglasses. The blind man tapping
the cane feels the street, not the cane. Of course, tools are not invisible
in themselves, but as part of a context of use.
With enough practice we can make many apparently difficult things
disappear: my fingers know vi editing commands
that my conscious mind has long forgotten. But good tools enhance invisibility.
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 01:59:10 +0000
From: Larry Troxler
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To: Paul Winkler
Cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Sparks
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Paul Winkler wrote:
>
> Well, OK, maybe my house per se is boring, but how 'bout the 4' diameter
> x 15' long empty stainless steel tanks in the basement? They sound
> pretty interesting. You see, I live in a former peanut processing plant.
> They drained the oil into the basement and then piped it out when they
> filled up the tanks. Now it's a semi-residential building but these
> giant things are still down there and they sound AMAZING--but they kinda
> smell bad.
>
...
>
> I think I may try piping various test signals through some speakers in
> the basement and see what I can come up with... though of course that
> adds the response of the speakers into the equation...
Wow. I kind of get the feeling you might not be making this up, and
really do have a sonic
paradise down there! (Or am I a sucker for another hoax?)
Don't wait until you figure out the impulse response stuff - Just get
some good mikes down there and record all sorts of things :-). Figure
out what to do with it later :-)
Larry
-- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA --
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 13:43:28 +0930
To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk
From: Peter
Subject: Re: Sparks
Cc: Paul Winkler
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At 11:29 AM 2/5/98, Larry Troxler wrote:
>Paul Winkler wrote:
>>
>> Well, OK, maybe my house per se is boring, but how 'bout the 4' diameter
>> x 15' long empty stainless steel tanks in the basement? They sound
>> pretty interesting. You see, I live in a former peanut processing plant.
>> They drained the oil into the basement and then piped it out when they
>> filled up the tanks. Now it's a semi-residential building but these
>> giant things are still down there and they sound AMAZING--but they kinda
>> smell bad.
>>
>...
>>
>> I think I may try piping various test signals through some speakers in
>> the basement and see what I can come up with... though of course that
>> adds the response of the speakers into the equation...
>
>Wow. I kind of get the feeling you might not be making this up, and
>really do have a sonic
>paradise down there! (Or am I a sucker for another hoax?)
>
>Don't wait until you figure out the impulse response stuff - Just get
>some good mikes down there and record all sorts of things :-). Figure
>out what to do with it later :-)
>
>Larry
>
Also try using some form contact mike/s and get the sound of the metal
, should be like some form of ultra large plate reverb :-)
Peter S
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 11:24:06 +0100
From: Richard Dobson
Organization: Composers Desktop project
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To: Csound mailing list
Subject: Re: Pascaline calculating machine
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Now this is interesting! Allen Holub makes a similar point in his lovely book
'Enough Rope to Shoot Yourself in the Foot' (where he compares the Mac unfavourably
with a pencil, for just the reasons you give). He also points out that what is a
suitable tool for an expert is not necessarily a suitable tool for a beginner, and
vice versa.
The problem we face is that the computer, as we are obliged to have it most of the
time, is not a target-specific tool. Eyeglasses are great for seeing through, and
at a pinch you might even be able to start a fire with them, but they won't undo the
wheel-nuts when you need tc change a wheel. Yet we somehow expect 'the computer'
(define ad lib...) to be able to do everything - write our letters, fetch our mail,
design machines, make sounds, fix our finances, play games... so the more
'universal' or generic the tool is, the more visible it will inevitably be. It is
not really the fault of the tool, it the the consequence of our ambitions for it,
which may or may not be appropriate, strictly speaking. Csound is an excellent tool
for many tasks, but less so for others, though with skill and ingenuity those other
tasks may still be managed. Thus, the tool is unlikely to become invisible if the
'context of use' is itself imprecise.
The computer (or, rather, the software in it) is also special in that as well as
being a tool, it is also frequently a tool-maker, so the level of visibility is in
constant flux. When I play my flute, it is, indeed 'invisible' to a degree (though I
am also part of the instrument, and a level of self-awarenes is always valuable),
but when I make one, the flute is very visible, as indeed is the lathe I use to make
it, when I have to adapt it to pretend to be a different tool I would like to have
(a horizontal mill) but cannot afford. Again, this is not the fault of the lathe -
it was not designed to be a horizontal mill - but I am choosing to 'see' the lathe
in order to adapt it to my needs, as I design my flute, to adapt that to my needs
too.
So, surprise, surprise, even the statement 'a good tool is an invisible tool', which
I agree with when the tool is specific to a task, and well-designed for that task
and for the aptitude of the user, becomes closer to a moral imperative when, as
almost inevtitably happens, we ask the tool we do have to substitute for a tool
which we don't. Really, it is remarkable how we manage that, with software, so much
of the time!
As for the desktop; well, we know that the world is not a desktop, but, the desktop
(or whatever/whomever we are focussed on) can become the world, at times.
Richard Dobson
=cw4t7abs wrote:
>
>
> Title: the world is not a desktop
>
> What is the metaphor for the computer of the future? The intelligent agent?
> The television (multimedia)? The 3-D
> graphics world (virtual reality)? The StarTrek ubiquitous voice computer?
> The GUI desktop, honed and refined? The
> machine that magically grants our wishes? I think the right answer is "none
> of the above", because I think all of these
> concepts share a basic flaw: they make the computer visible.
>
> A good tool is an invisible tool. By invisible, I mean that the tool does
> not intrude on your consciousness; you focus
> on the task, not the tool. Eyeglasses are a good tool -- you look at the
> world, not the eyeglasses. The blind man tapping
> the cane feels the street, not the cane. Of course, tools are not invisible
> in themselves, but as part of a context of use.
> With enough practice we can make many apparently difficult things
> disappear: my fingers know vi editing commands
> that my conscious mind has long forgotten. But good tools enhance invisibility.
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 06:23:04 -0600
To: Csound mailing list
From: =cw4t7abs
Subject: target-specific
Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk
Precedence: bulk
>The problem we face is that the computer, as we are obliged to have it most of
>the
>time, is not a target-specific tool. ..... so the more
>'universal' or generic the tool is, the more visible it will inevitably be. It
>is
>not really the fault of the tool, it the the consequence of our ambitions for
>it,
>which may or may not be appropriate, strictly speaking.
He claims it was a visit to the washroom in O'Hare Airport that
prompted him to ask, "Shouldn't my computer be as smart as this toilet=
?"
[regard!ng presensz + !ntent]
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