changing tuning

Date	1998-11-10 13:44
From	neuwirth
Subject	changing tuning
	a collueague is playing with music minus one cd's and wants to change the tuning slightly, in real time (from say a=440 Hz to a=445 Hz) is there an easy way of doing this real time in csound? -- Erich Neuwirth Computer Supported Didactics Working Group, Univ. Vienna Visit our SunSITE at http://sunsite.univie.ac.at NEW PHONE #: +43-1-4277-38629 Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21316; 10 Nov 98 15:53 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa15584; 10 Nov 98 15:53 GMT Received: (qmail 7293 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 15:53:04 -0000 Received: from endeavor.flash.net (209.30.0.40) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 15:53:04 -0000 Received: from flash.net (p51.amax26.dialup.ftw1.flash.net [209.30.57.51]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01802; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:52:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36486149.803E1A18@flash.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:52:41 -0600 From: pete moss Organization: pete moss GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Randon numbers again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i agree that we should have the old opcode for compatibility. however, for the new 31-bit generator, i think it would be better as an argument to rand, randh, etc. that way, fewer opcodes to learn! or at least to remember. pete jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote: > Message written at 9 Nov 1998 23:23:49 +0000 > > There has in the past been concern about the quality of the random > number generator used in the opcodes rand, randh and randi (which is > totally different from the one used in the other noise opcodes by the > way). Clearly to change it would or could break old orchestras which > is something I am trying to avoid. I have implemented a rand2, rand2h > and rand2i set of opcodes which use a full 31 bit generator. > > But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an > optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Or not at > all? I would like to see this in the next release, or the idea > squashed as it has been hanging around for a long time. > > ==John Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21439; 10 Nov 98 16:37 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa20186; 10 Nov 98 16:37 GMT Received: (qmail 12799 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 16:37:25 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 16:37:25 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (NAA01539); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:05:05 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:04:51 GMT Received: from exim@wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk [138.38.100.104] by hermes via ESMTP (NAA22145); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:04:51 GMT Received: from [138.38.97.36] (helo=maths.Bath.AC.UK ident=mmdf) by wallace.maths.bath.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) id 0zcr00-000702-00; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:04:52 +0000 From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk To: ykass@netvision.net.il CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk In-reply-to: <3645C1E3.73B9352B@netvision.net.il> (message from Yair Kass on Sun, 08 Nov 1998 18:08:03 +0200) Subject: Re: Where is kdump ?! References: <3645C1E3.73B9352B@netvision.net.il> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 98 13:04:49 GMT Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Message-Id: Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk First these names are not good ones, and in my next version they are renamed dumpk etc. They print vakues at k-rate. ==John Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21540; 10 Nov 98 17:09 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23553; 10 Nov 98 17:09 GMT Received: (qmail 14889 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:08:57 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:08:57 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA06360); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:03:19 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:02:52 GMT Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6] by hermes via ESMTP (PAA23684); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:40:52 GMT Received: from donner.Dartmouth.EDU (donner.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.3]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA06671 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:40:47 -0500 (EST) Message-id: <15273739@donner.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 10 Nov 98 10:40:47 EST From: "Matt J. Ingalls" Subject: Re: Randon numbers again To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk --- You wrote: way). Clearly to change it would or could break old orchestras which is something I am trying to avoid. I have implemented a rand2, rand2h and rand2i set of opcodes which use a full 31 bit generator. But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Or not at --- end of quote --- backwards compatibility is nice, but i prefer to look forwards.. my vote: make "rand" the 31 bit generator, and have an optional flag to turn it into old (16-bit?) rng... this might make old orc/scos sound different, but at least they will still "render" with no errors -matt Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21547; 10 Nov 98 17:10 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23704; 10 Nov 98 17:10 GMT Received: (qmail 18128 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:10:08 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:10:08 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA22734); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:02:49 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:02:25 GMT Received: from endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40] by hermes via ESMTP (QAA03712); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:08:26 GMT Received: from flash.net (p51.amax26.dialup.ftw1.flash.net [209.30.57.51]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11303 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:08:22 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36486510.54E97EB2@flash.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:08:48 -0600 From: pete moss Organization: pete moss GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csound Subject: csound ethnomusicology Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk sorry all, this is quite a bit off topic. i am currently enrolled in an ethnomusicology course. each of us are working on projects dealing with some branch of ethnomusicology. for mine, i have chosen to examine the csound community as a subset of the electroacoustic community in general. what i am asking is if some of you could send me personal anecdotes about how you work with csound, why you chose csound, and what you do in general. more specific questions are: 1. what is your 'day job'? 2. would you call yourself a composer and why? 3. what attracts you to csound? 4. if you dont think of yourself as a composer, what do you do with csound? 5. do you view yourself as different from a 'standard' (non-electroacoustic) composer and why? what do you do that is nonstandard (or standard for that matter)? please send as much as you can and i will ask further questions from there. also, please reply to me personally so as to not clog the list with this stuff. also also, does anyone know of any articles or books dealing with this or a similar topic? also also also, didnt someone on the list in the past few months collect a list of recorded compositons using csound. if so, may i see it? thanks, pete Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21568; 10 Nov 98 17:14 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa24191; 10 Nov 98 17:14 GMT Received: (qmail 15378 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:14:08 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:14:08 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA13660); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:08:27 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:08:05 GMT Received: from radiate.indy.net [199.3.65.253] by hermes via ESMTP (PAA17914); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:00:40 GMT Received: from indy1.indy.net (root@indy1.indy.net [199.3.65.5]) by radiate.indy.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19048; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.183.87.183] (ip209-183-87-183.ts.indy.net [209.183.87.183]) by indy1.indy.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01154; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:00:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811101500.KAA01154@indy1.indy.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:04:26 -0600 Subject: Re: changing tuning From: Keith Boyle To: neuwirth , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Er, I think that might be a bit of a CPU load on anything but big metal.... But it /could/ be done Try using 1) an outboard device (Eventide, anyone) or 2) CMix (slightly less load on most of the machines I've tried doing similar things on) instead. This way, your latency isn't an issue concerning the FPU calls made by such a small increment. Keith Boyle 3Verse Digital Media http://www.3verse.com ---------- >From: neuwirth >To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk >Subject: changing tuning >Date: Tue, Nov 10, 1998, 7:44 AM > >a collueague is playing with music minus one cd's >and wants to change the tuning slightly, >in real time (from say a=440 Hz to a=445 Hz) > >is there an easy way of doing this real time in csound? Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21583; 10 Nov 98 17:18 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa24446; 10 Nov 98 17:18 GMT Received: (qmail 19266 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:17:20 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:17:20 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA21985); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:09:55 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:09:37 GMT Received: from lt@westnet.com [206.24.6.2] by hermes via ESMTP (OAA01775); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:11:53 GMT Received: from localhost (lt@localhost) by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA09951; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:11:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:11:45 -0500 (EST) From: Larry Troxler To: Paul Winkler cc: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module) In-Reply-To: <364801B9.57CD@erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Why not just use CM (if you don't mind using Lisp instead of perl). It already is OO, has semantics for manipulating patterns of events, which can be nested, etc, and allows multiple output modes (csound,CLM,MIDI,etc.). Larry -- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA -- Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21596; 10 Nov 98 17:19 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa24645; 10 Nov 98 17:19 GMT Received: (qmail 15860 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:19:09 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:19:09 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA24719); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:03:14 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:02:45 GMT Received: from endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40] by hermes via ESMTP (PAA00145); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:53:09 GMT Received: from flash.net (p51.amax26.dialup.ftw1.flash.net [209.30.57.51]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01802; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:52:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36486149.803E1A18@flash.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:52:41 -0600 From: pete moss Organization: pete moss GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Randon numbers again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk i agree that we should have the old opcode for compatibility. however, for the new 31-bit generator, i think it would be better as an argument to rand, randh, etc. that way, fewer opcodes to learn! or at least to remember. pete jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk wrote: > Message written at 9 Nov 1998 23:23:49 +0000 > > There has in the past been concern about the quality of the random > number generator used in the opcodes rand, randh and randi (which is > totally different from the one used in the other noise opcodes by the > way). Clearly to change it would or could break old orchestras which > is something I am trying to avoid. I have implemented a rand2, rand2h > and rand2i set of opcodes which use a full 31 bit generator. > > But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an > optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Or not at > all? I would like to see this in the next release, or the idea > squashed as it has been hanging around for a long time. > > ==John Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21604; 10 Nov 98 17:20 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa24796; 10 Nov 98 17:20 GMT Received: (qmail 16110 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:20:41 -0000 Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (207.217.120.123) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:20:41 -0000 Received: from [153.35.177.220] (1Cust220.tnt1.new-bedford.ma.da.uu.net [153.35.177.220]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17982; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:19:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:19:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Anders Andersson From: Richard Boulanger Subject: Re: [pipe@algonet.se: LFO opcode] Cc: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk, CsoundList Dear Anders and Members of the Csound Community, At ICMC this past year, I personally asked John ffitch and Hans Mikelson to develop a series of opcodes based on the modules found on traditional "analog" synthesizers such as - an adsr, a multiwaveform lfo, a multimode filter with resonance, a sync osscilator with variable pulse-width. The reason for this request is based on my years of experience as a teacher of software synthesis at Berklee. Like you Anders, I love showing my students how an oscil can be used for envelopes, how to use delay lines to build plucked strings, how to make adsr's and beyond using linsegs, how to do FM synthesis by solving for sin(x). That is the thrill of Csound. You can work at any level - the calculator level, the code level, the opcode level, the "super-opcode," "preset" or "alfgorithm" level (foscil, pluck, loscil, diskin, the new cook waveguides) at the instrument level, at the macro level and via Cecilia and VisOrc, for instance, at the graphical level. For me and my students, a great deal of insight, understanding and innovation has resulted from being able to move from one level to another - to see and modify the inner workings of the system or combine complex functions in unorthodox ways. Also, I have been teaching Csound at Berklee for the past 10 years - three semesters a year. And I begin every class by saying: "Csound is the ultimate synthesizer." For an advanced user, this is almost true, but for a beginner it is rarely the case. They rightfully complain when it is so difficult to do the most simple things. Things that they have come to expect from a "professional" commercial synthesizers that they own and have learned on. I don't want to loose a single student. In 1990, I spent a year arguing with Barry Vercoe that Csound desperately needed to be able to play and transpose looped samples. Why? Because EVERY synthesizer could. But Csound could not... well not without some (very intereting, but also resonably advanced use of table and phasors and gen1...etc. ((This, by the way is another favourite lecture of mine, but not until about week 8.) When it came to samples, I would say "Barry, how can anyone believe that Csound is the ultimate synthesizer, when my Ensoniq Mirage can do so much more?" He finally caved in and added loscil. In fact he has spent a good part of the past three years adding and improving the sample playback, mapping and DLS capabilities of Extended Csound at Analog Devices. Working correctly with samples is important. So... I have always been interested in seeing that Csound grow in both directions... Personally, I want a neural net opcode, real-time convolution and pvoc with analysis on the fly, AND at the same time, I want a simple LFO and a simple ADSR. Do I need these for my music? Absolutely not! But when a beginner comes to Csound, I want them to find that the language contains many more of the basic synthesis modules that they are familiar with than it currently does. I want those who are just beginning to work in the area of software synthesis to begin their journey in familiar territory. From the earth I will reach to the stars. Csound is a lifelong quest. The charting of this universe of possibilities has occupied a good part of my profesional life and I want to bring along as many friends as I can. Sincerely, Richard Boulanger Professor of Music Synthesis Berklee College of Music >------- Start of forwarded message ------- >From: Anders Andersson >Reply-To: pipe@algonet.se >To: CSound list >Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:46:22 +0100 >In-Reply-To: >Organization: Nature >Subject: LFO opcode >Content-Type: text/plain >Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk > >>instr 1 >>kp lfo 10, 5, 4 >>ar oscil p4, p5+kp, 1 >> out ar >>endin > >Can anyone tell me what the difference is between the >'lfo' opcode and the (i assume) oldest and most usefull >of them all: 'oscil'? >To me, they seem to perform the exactly same thing, >except for 'oscil' being much more flexible. > > >.--- -- - - >\| Anders "Pipe/Nature" Andersson, pipe@algonet.se >: >------- End of forwarded message ------- ================== Dr. Richard Boulanger Professor - Music Synthesis Department Berklee College of Music 1140 Boylston Street - Boston, MA 02215-3693 Office Phone: (617) 747-2485 Office Fax: (617) 536-2257 ========================================== Email: radiobaton@earthlink.net URL: http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/underworld/836/ ================================================= Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21673; 10 Nov 98 17:35 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa26698; 10 Nov 98 17:35 GMT Received: (qmail 22126 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:35:04 -0000 Received: from neptune.lyrick.com (38.227.100.46) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:35:04 -0000 Received: by NEPTUNE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:31:15 -0600 Message-ID: <283AABB8FD0DD21187C200A0C995F5DE0ECD4D@NEPTUNE> From: David Boothe To: "'jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk'" , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: RE: Randon numbers again Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:31:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John wrote: > > But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an > optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Well my vote goes for separate opcodes, especially if syntax is the same as the old ones. Seems to me optional arguments can become a bit unwieldy and confusing, especially one that changes the fundamental nature of the opcode. -David. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21695; 10 Nov 98 17:40 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27203; 10 Nov 98 17:40 GMT Received: (qmail 22890 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:40:53 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:40:53 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA14891); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:34:15 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:34:04 GMT Received: from neptune.lyrick.com [38.227.100.46] by hermes via ESMTP (RAA11228); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:34:03 GMT Received: by NEPTUNE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:31:15 -0600 Message-ID: <283AABB8FD0DD21187C200A0C995F5DE0ECD4D@NEPTUNE> From: David Boothe To: "'jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk'" , csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: RE: Randon numbers again Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:31:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk John wrote: > > But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an > optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Well my vote goes for separate opcodes, especially if syntax is the same as the old ones. Seems to me optional arguments can become a bit unwieldy and confusing, especially one that changes the fundamental nature of the opcode. -David. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21697; 10 Nov 98 17:40 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27205; 10 Nov 98 17:40 GMT Received: (qmail 22891 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:40:54 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:40:54 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA07599); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:21:50 GMT Received: from sunny.ex.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:21:36 GMT Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123] by sunny via ESMTP (RAA04488); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:21:36 GMT Received: from [153.35.177.220] (1Cust220.tnt1.new-bedford.ma.da.uu.net [153.35.177.220]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17982; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:19:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:19:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Anders Andersson From: Richard Boulanger Subject: Re: [pipe@algonet.se: LFO opcode] Cc: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk, CsoundList Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Dear Anders and Members of the Csound Community, At ICMC this past year, I personally asked John ffitch and Hans Mikelson to develop a series of opcodes based on the modules found on traditional "analog" synthesizers such as - an adsr, a multiwaveform lfo, a multimode filter with resonance, a sync osscilator with variable pulse-width. The reason for this request is based on my years of experience as a teacher of software synthesis at Berklee. Like you Anders, I love showing my students how an oscil can be used for envelopes, how to use delay lines to build plucked strings, how to make adsr's and beyond using linsegs, how to do FM synthesis by solving for sin(x). That is the thrill of Csound. You can work at any level - the calculator level, the code level, the opcode level, the "super-opcode," "preset" or "alfgorithm" level (foscil, pluck, loscil, diskin, the new cook waveguides) at the instrument level, at the macro level and via Cecilia and VisOrc, for instance, at the graphical level. For me and my students, a great deal of insight, understanding and innovation has resulted from being able to move from one level to another - to see and modify the inner workings of the system or combine complex functions in unorthodox ways. Also, I have been teaching Csound at Berklee for the past 10 years - three semesters a year. And I begin every class by saying: "Csound is the ultimate synthesizer." For an advanced user, this is almost true, but for a beginner it is rarely the case. They rightfully complain when it is so difficult to do the most simple things. Things that they have come to expect from a "professional" commercial synthesizers that they own and have learned on. I don't want to loose a single student. In 1990, I spent a year arguing with Barry Vercoe that Csound desperately needed to be able to play and transpose looped samples. Why? Because EVERY synthesizer could. But Csound could not... well not without some (very intereting, but also resonably advanced use of table and phasors and gen1...etc. ((This, by the way is another favourite lecture of mine, but not until about week 8.) When it came to samples, I would say "Barry, how can anyone believe that Csound is the ultimate synthesizer, when my Ensoniq Mirage can do so much more?" He finally caved in and added loscil. In fact he has spent a good part of the past three years adding and improving the sample playback, mapping and DLS capabilities of Extended Csound at Analog Devices. Working correctly with samples is important. So... I have always been interested in seeing that Csound grow in both directions... Personally, I want a neural net opcode, real-time convolution and pvoc with analysis on the fly, AND at the same time, I want a simple LFO and a simple ADSR. Do I need these for my music? Absolutely not! But when a beginner comes to Csound, I want them to find that the language contains many more of the basic synthesis modules that they are familiar with than it currently does. I want those who are just beginning to work in the area of software synthesis to begin their journey in familiar territory. From the earth I will reach to the stars. Csound is a lifelong quest. The charting of this universe of possibilities has occupied a good part of my profesional life and I want to bring along as many friends as I can. Sincerely, Richard Boulanger Professor of Music Synthesis Berklee College of Music >------- Start of forwarded message ------- >From: Anders Andersson >Reply-To: pipe@algonet.se >To: CSound list >Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:46:22 +0100 >In-Reply-To: >Organization: Nature >Subject: LFO opcode >Content-Type: text/plain >Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk > >>instr 1 >>kp lfo 10, 5, 4 >>ar oscil p4, p5+kp, 1 >> out ar >>endin > >Can anyone tell me what the difference is between the >'lfo' opcode and the (i assume) oldest and most usefull >of them all: 'oscil'? >To me, they seem to perform the exactly same thing, >except for 'oscil' being much more flexible. > > >.--- -- - - >\| Anders "Pipe/Nature" Andersson, pipe@algonet.se >: >------- End of forwarded message ------- ================== Dr. Richard Boulanger Professor - Music Synthesis Department Berklee College of Music 1140 Boylston Street - Boston, MA 02215-3693 Office Phone: (617) 747-2485 Office Fax: (617) 536-2257 ========================================== Email: radiobaton@earthlink.net URL: http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/underworld/836/ ================================================= Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21707; 10 Nov 98 17:42 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27370; 10 Nov 98 17:42 GMT Received: (qmail 17816 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:42:44 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:42:44 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA05371); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:33:46 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:33:34 GMT Received: from root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8] by hermes via ESMTP (RAA15270); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:33:30 GMT Received: from homer01.u.washington.edu (karpen@homer01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.11]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA29880; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:33:18 -0800 Received: from localhost (karpen@localhost) by homer01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id JAA79836; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:33:17 -0800 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:33:17 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Karpen To: "Matt J. Ingalls" cc: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Randon numbers again In-Reply-To: <15273739@donner.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I like the idea of updating the rand family to 31 bits and having an optional mode for using it in the old mode. xr randi xamp, xfreq, [iseed, imode] imode defaults to 31 bits. Any non-zero value will switch it to old rand. RK On 10 Nov 1998, Matt J. Ingalls wrote: > --- You wrote: > way). Clearly to change it would or could break old orchestras which > is something I am trying to avoid. I have implemented a rand2, rand2h > and rand2i set of opcodes which use a full 31 bit generator. > But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an > optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Or not at > --- end of quote --- > > backwards compatibility is nice, but i prefer to look forwards.. > > my vote: > make "rand" the 31 bit generator, and have an optional > flag to turn it into old (16-bit?) rng... > > this might make old orc/scos sound different, but at least they will still > "render" with no errors > -matt > Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21721; 10 Nov 98 17:54 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa28565; 10 Nov 98 17:54 GMT Received: (qmail 18837 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 17:54:15 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 17:54:15 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA26739); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:43:49 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:43:37 GMT Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6] by hermes via ESMTP (RAA01048); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:43:29 GMT Received: from donner.Dartmouth.EDU (donner.dartmouth.edu [129.170.208.3]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA29528 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:43:19 -0500 (EST) Message-id: <15281575@donner.Dartmouth.EDU> Date: 10 Nov 98 12:43:19 EST From: "Matt J. Ingalls" Subject: Re: Randon numbers again To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk ok -- if there is a strong case for not wanting to break old things -- BUT with rand it will just be a different algorthm -- still be "random"-- so if anything things just might sound "different" and if you have specific sound you want you have ability to revert back to old.. the optional flag will only be used to revert back to old so for most people/ orcs it will be not noticable change --- rcb wrote: You would break a ton of stuff to require that the old stuff needs to have a new parameter set. If you like using the same name, then the new version should require the extra parameter. --- end of quote --- Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21748; 10 Nov 98 18:03 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa29383; 10 Nov 98 18:03 GMT Received: (qmail 19638 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 18:03:15 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 18:03:15 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (RAA15296); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:52:31 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:52:20 GMT Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123] by hermes via ESMTP (RAA21511); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 17:52:12 GMT Received: from [153.35.177.220] (1Cust220.tnt1.new-bedford.ma.da.uu.net [153.35.177.220]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24083; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:52:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:52:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <15273739@donner.Dartmouth.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Richard Karpen From: Richard Boulanger Subject: Re: Randon numbers again Cc: CsoundList Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I think it would be better to have imode default to the original version and any non-zero value will switch to the new mode. We shouldn't have to change all the old orc and scores... for instance, this new rand breaks Trapped or it did when John last implimented it. Or I would be happy with a new opcode - especially in light of the fact that we have added such an extensive new family of rand opcodes. rick >I like the idea of updating the rand family to 31 bits and having an >optional mode for using it in the old mode. > >xr randi xamp, xfreq, [iseed, imode] > >imode defaults to 31 bits. Any non-zero value will switch it to old rand. > >RK > >On 10 Nov 1998, Matt J. Ingalls wrote: > >> --- You wrote: >> way). Clearly to change it would or could break old orchestras which >> is something I am trying to avoid. I have implemented a rand2, rand2h >> and rand2i set of opcodes which use a full 31 bit generator. >> But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an >> optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Or not at >> --- end of quote --- >> >> backwards compatibility is nice, but i prefer to look forwards.. >> >> my vote: >> make "rand" the 31 bit generator, and have an optional >> flag to turn it into old (16-bit?) rng... >> >> this might make old orc/scos sound different, but at least they will still >> "render" with no errors >> -matt >> ================== Dr. Richard Boulanger Professor - Music Synthesis Department Berklee College of Music 1140 Boylston Street - Boston, MA 02215-3693 Office Phone: (617) 747-2485 Office Fax: (617) 536-2257 ========================================== Email: radiobaton@earthlink.net URL: http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/underworld/836/ ================================================= Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21829; 10 Nov 98 18:41 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa03003; 10 Nov 98 18:41 GMT Received: (qmail 22417 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 18:41:13 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 18:41:13 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (SAA19112); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:30:34 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:30:23 GMT Received: from graphics.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.2.30] by hermes via ESMTP (SAA25464); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:30:22 GMT Received: from guache.lcs.mit.edu (guache.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.2.78]) by graphics.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA04200; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (aisaksen@localhost) by guache.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA22466; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:30:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: guache.lcs.mit.edu: aisaksen owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:30:08 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Isaksen To: Larry Troxler cc: Paul Winkler , Csound mailing list Subject: Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk How about a Perl interface to CM? That would probably be the most useful. Writing an interface that everyone is happy with is a lot harder than starting with someone else's interface. -Aaron On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Larry Troxler wrote: > Why not just use CM (if you don't mind using Lisp instead of perl). > > It already is OO, has semantics for manipulating patterns of events, which > can be nested, etc, and allows multiple output modes > (csound,CLM,MIDI,etc.). > > Larry > > -- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA -- > > Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21861; 10 Nov 98 18:57 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa04582; 10 Nov 98 18:57 GMT Received: (qmail 1541 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 18:57:55 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 18:57:55 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (SAA19744); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:53:03 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:52:52 GMT Received: from nmol.com [206.162.11.2] by hermes via SMTP (SAA08169); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:52:40 GMT X-ROUTED: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:56:04 -0600 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Mikeb Received: from nmol.com [206.162.11.167] by nmol.com with smtp id ALDHAKAE ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:55:10 -0600 Message-ID: <36488D83.F3BEBA0C@nmol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:01:25 -0700 From: Mike Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Randon numbers again References: <15281575@donner.Dartmouth.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I'm with Matt here. I think that rand should default to a 31 bit number. Most old scores just rely on rand being random, not a particular sequence of (therefore not) random numbers. If you do have an old score which relied on rand not being random, then you were relying on something which varied from machine to machine anyway, so you weren't going accurate playback across platforms, since different platforms had different rand() C functions. If you want to change your old score, that's certainly possible to do. But this can't "break" anything that wasn't already broken cross-platform-wise, since the new rand will return exactly the same range of numbers that the old rand did, just in a somewhat more random manner. -- Mike Berry mikeb@nmol.com http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21910; 10 Nov 98 19:28 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa07567; 10 Nov 98 19:28 GMT Received: (qmail 26395 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 19:28:49 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 19:28:49 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA20860); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:20:57 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:20:45 GMT Received: from howl.werewolf.net [206.103.224.20] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA03248); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:20:44 GMT Received: from default (dial11.werewolf.net [206.103.225.21]) by howl.werewolf.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id NAA15046 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:15:34 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <003901be0cdf$b72be4a0$15e167ce@default> From: Hans Mikelson To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork Subject: Re: Randon numbers again Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:24:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Here is my vote for those keeping score: rand should default to the old version so you do not break existing stuff and add an optional argument for the new version since there are already a "whole bunch" of opcodes. Regards, Hans Mikelson Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21926; 10 Nov 98 19:37 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08238; 10 Nov 98 19:37 GMT Received: (qmail 5112 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 19:37:19 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 19:37:19 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA09032); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:32:55 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:32:45 GMT Received: from dns2.seanet.com [199.181.164.2] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA20349); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:32:43 GMT Received: from seanet.com (ab36.dialup.seanet.com [207.12.134.36]) by mx.seanet.com (8.8.8/Seanet-8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16432 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:32:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3648955B.67BD10C8@seanet.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:34:51 -0800 From: Sean Costello X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csound Subject: Phase Quadrature Waveshaping? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hi folks: I am curious about GEN 15, the subroutine used to create two tables of polynomial functions to be used in phase quadrature waveshaping. My question is, what is phase quadrature waveshaping? I've done some internet searches, and the only info I found was a brief description of how to implement phase quadrature waveshaping in Common Lisp Music. The description of the CLM file does suggest that it is useful for creating single side-band spectra, but it gives no further details. Does anyone know of any literature that might describe phase quadrature waveshaping? I am going to look up the major articles by Arfib and LeBrun on waveshaping in general, in case they shed some light on the topic. Anyone else know of other sources? I have a pretty nice little computer music literature library, and I haven't found any mention of it. In general, I am very interested in single sideband modulation. I am going to try and implement a frequency shifter in Csound (single-sideband amplitude modulation), and am going to explore the asymmetrical FM synthesis technique described in Dodge and Jerse. I think there might be some interesting stuff going on in there. Sean Costello Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21965; 10 Nov 98 19:49 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa09506; 10 Nov 98 19:49 GMT Received: (qmail 27892 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 19:49:38 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 19:49:38 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (TAA17812); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:44:47 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:44:35 GMT Received: from sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14] by hermes via ESMTP (TAA00861); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:44:31 GMT Received: from brutus (find3-cs-16.dial.bright.net [209.143.26.51]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.1/8.9.1 ComNet Build) with SMTP id OAA09978; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:43:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36489A9C.6806FC9A@bright.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:57:16 -0500 From: Dave Phillips X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hans Mikelson CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Randon numbers again References: <003901be0cdf$b72be4a0$15e167ce@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hans Mikelson wrote: > rand should default to the old version so you do not break existing stuff > and add an optional argument for the new version since there are already a > "whole bunch" of opcodes. I like this. My vote goes for it. == Dave Phillips http://www.bright.net/~dlphilp/index.html http://www.bright.net/~dlphilp/linux_soundapps.html Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa21987; 10 Nov 98 20:06 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa10980; 10 Nov 98 20:06 GMT Received: (qmail 29092 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 20:06:13 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 20:06:13 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (UAA07915); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:02:30 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:02:20 GMT Received: from nmol.com [206.162.11.2] by hermes via SMTP (UAA08103); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:02:18 GMT X-ROUTED: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:05:32 -0600 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Mikeb Received: from nmol.com [206.162.11.163] by nmol.com with smtp id ANAFAPAO ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:05:14 -0600 Message-ID: <36489DF1.1D100F1A@nmol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:11:33 -0700 From: Mike Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Random numbers again ??? References: <003901be0cdf$b72be4a0$15e167ce@default> <36489A9C.6806FC9A@bright.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Why is everyone saying that a more random rand would break every old orchestra out there? The range of numbers would be identical. Yes, you would get a different sequence of random numbers than you did with the old rand. But you already get a different sequence with the existing rand if you render on different platforms. If your old orchestra relied on rand not being random, its already broken and you can fix it by storing the "random" values that you want in an ftable. So I see no reason why rand should default to the current definitely NOT random behavior. -- Mike Berry mikeb@nmol.com http://www.nmol.com/users/mikeb Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa22230; 10 Nov 98 22:29 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23894; 10 Nov 98 22:29 GMT Received: (qmail 8404 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 22:29:04 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 22:29:04 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (WAA07218); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:25:54 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:25:44 GMT Received: from neptune.lyrick.com [38.227.100.46] by hermes via ESMTP (WAA08974); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:25:43 GMT Received: by NEPTUNE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:23:01 -0600 Message-ID: <283AABB8FD0DD21187C200A0C995F5DE0ECD50@NEPTUNE> From: David Boothe To: "Csound (E-mail)" Subject: 3.491 pdf Manual Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:22:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Now ready for download (complete manual or updated pages only). http://web2.airmail.net/dboothe -David. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa22332; 10 Nov 98 23:55 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01497; 10 Nov 98 23:55 GMT Received: (qmail 13375 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 23:55:13 -0000 Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (207.69.200.58) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 23:55:13 -0000 Received: from axe (user-38ld1q9.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.135.73]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA05160; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:53:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002a01be0d06$fed09540$498756d1@axe> From: Michael Gogins To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork Subject: Re: Randon numbers again Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:05:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 I would prefer to see this as new opcodes rand31, rand31h, and rand31iin case someday we have rand63, rand63h, and rand63i. -----Original Message----- From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:46 AM Subject: Randon numbers again >Message written at 9 Nov 1998 23:23:49 +0000 > >There has in the past been concern about the quality of the random >number generator used in the opcodes rand, randh and randi (which is >totally different from the one used in the other noise opcodes by the >way). Clearly to change it would or could break old orchestras which >is something I am trying to avoid. I have implemented a rand2, rand2h >and rand2i set of opcodes which use a full 31 bit generator. > >But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an >optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Or not at >all? I would like to see this in the next release, or the idea >squashed as it has been hanging around for a long time. > >==John Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa22340; 10 Nov 98 23:58 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa01747; 10 Nov 98 23:58 GMT Received: (qmail 24793 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 23:58:18 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 23:58:18 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (XAA25917); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:55:28 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:55:18 GMT Received: from camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58] by hermes via ESMTP (XAA14596); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:55:16 GMT Received: from axe (user-38ld1q9.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.135.73]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA05160; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:53:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002a01be0d06$fed09540$498756d1@axe> From: Michael Gogins To: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk, csound@maths.ex.ac.uk MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at UK.AC.Bath.maths.stork Subject: Re: Randon numbers again Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:05:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I would prefer to see this as new opcodes rand31, rand31h, and rand31iin case someday we have rand63, rand63h, and rand63i. -----Original Message----- From: jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:46 AM Subject: Randon numbers again >Message written at 9 Nov 1998 23:23:49 +0000 > >There has in the past been concern about the quality of the random >number generator used in the opcodes rand, randh and randi (which is >totally different from the one used in the other noise opcodes by the >way). Clearly to change it would or could break old orchestras which >is something I am trying to avoid. I have implemented a rand2, rand2h >and rand2i set of opcodes which use a full 31 bit generator. > >But... is that what is needed or would you prefer to see this as an >optional argument to the opcode rather than a new opcode? Or not at >all? I would like to see this in the next release, or the idea >squashed as it has been hanging around for a long time. > >==John Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa22373; 11 Nov 98 0:14 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa03582; 11 Nov 98 0:14 GMT Received: (qmail 25812 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 00:14:37 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 00:14:37 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (AAA23393); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:11:36 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:11:26 GMT Received: from camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57] by hermes via ESMTP (AAA13038); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:11:24 GMT Received: from axe (user-38ld0np.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.130.249]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21585; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:11:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001601be0d09$6d2a2d60$f98256d1@axe> From: Michael Gogins To: pete moss , csound Subject: Re: csound ethnomusicology Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:22:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk 1. My day job is software engineer doing C++ programming and design. I learned to program in the course of doing computer music. 2. I am a composer because I make new music that I play for other people to hear. 3. Csound attracts me because I like using a software synthesizer as an instrument because (a) as a composer I am almost exclusively interested in algorithmic composition and generate many scores that I want to hear right away even if they have unusual sounds, tunings, or difficult to play textures and (b) I don't depend on other musicians to render my stuff and (c) it's the most widely used software synthesizer that's adequate for serious music and can be made to sound good and (d) it has a good depth of publicly available instrument definitions. 5. I am very different from a "standard" composer because of my interest in algorithmic composition and, specifically, in parametric composition or composition by exploration of abstract spaces (see my publications, listed on my resume at my web site http://www.pipeline.com/~gogins). -----Original Message----- From: pete moss To: csound Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 12:14 PM Subject: csound ethnomusicology >sorry all, this is quite a bit off topic. > >i am currently enrolled in an ethnomusicology course. each of us are >working on projects dealing with some branch of ethnomusicology. for >mine, i have chosen to examine the csound community as a subset of the >electroacoustic community in general. what i am asking is if some of >you could send me personal anecdotes about how you work with csound, why >you chose csound, and what you do in general. > >more specific questions are: >1. what is your 'day job'? >2. would you call yourself a composer and why? >3. what attracts you to csound? >4. if you dont think of yourself as a composer, what do you do with >csound? >5. do you view yourself as different from a 'standard' >(non-electroacoustic) composer and why? what do you do that is >nonstandard (or standard for that matter)? > >please send as much as you can and i will ask further questions from >there. also, please reply to me personally so as to not clog the list >with this stuff. also also, does anyone know of any articles or books >dealing with this or a similar topic? also also also, didnt someone on >the list in the past few months collect a list of recorded compositons >using csound. if so, may i see it? > >thanks, >pete > Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa22477; 11 Nov 98 1:00 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa08363; 11 Nov 98 1:00 GMT Received: (qmail 16917 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 01:00:15 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 01:00:15 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (AAA02463); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:57:24 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:57:14 GMT Received: from root@westnet.com [206.24.6.2] by hermes via ESMTP (AAA10762); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:57:12 GMT Received: from goodguy (p24.pm3-3.westnet.com [206.28.203.24]) by westnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA10765; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:56:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3648EF53.256D92C3@westnet.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:58:43 +0000 From: Larry Troxler X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Brickle CC: Aaron Isaksen , Paul Winkler , Csound mailing list Subject: Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Frank Brickle wrote: > You don't have to know much Lisp to use CM. Well, that's what you and others say, but to be honest, I ended up getting quite comofortable in Lisp, before I was able to really start using it well. It was worth the effort, though. Lisp is really powerful, interactive platform for experimentation, just the thing you need for music composition, where you don't always know what you want to do ahead of time. Larry -- Larry Troxler -- lt@westnet.com -- Patterson, NY USA -- Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa22722; 11 Nov 98 4:22 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27788; 11 Nov 98 4:22 GMT Received: (qmail 5962 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 04:22:35 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 04:22:35 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (EAA03120); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:19:16 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:19:06 GMT Received: from mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.38] by hermes via ESMTP (EAA21677); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:19:05 GMT Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.73.97.107]) by mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.03 118 118 102) with ESMTP id <19981111041835.DUGK9813@worldnet.att.net> for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:18:35 +0000 Message-ID: <364910B6.B90E05D0@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:21:10 -0800 From: Jay Chernick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: wgbow example request Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hello all, Would someone please assist this Csoudn newbie with an example .orc for a simple wgbow instrument? Whatever it is I'm doing wrong (something simple, no doubt) I can't seem to get the pitch to behave itself. Thanks for your help! Jay Chernick Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa22928; 11 Nov 98 5:39 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa04641; 11 Nov 98 5:39 GMT Received: (qmail 3218 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 05:39:46 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 05:39:46 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (FAA03812); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:36:41 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:36:31 GMT Received: from mb05.swip.net [193.12.122.209] by hermes via ESMTP (FAA11722); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:36:29 GMT Received: from gruad (dialup74-3-30.swipnet.se [130.244.74.158]) by mb05.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA02796 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:36:27 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199811110536.GAA02796@mb05.swip.net> X-Sender: rasmuse@hem.passagen.se X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Demo Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 06:43:08 +0100 To: Csound list From: rasmus ekman Subject: Random vote (Re: Random numbers again ???) In-Reply-To: <36489DF1.1D100F1A@nmol.com> References: <003901be0cdf$b72be4a0$15e167ce@default> <36489A9C.6806FC9A@bright.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk At 21:11 1998-11-10 , Matt wrote (and someone agreed): >old rand. But you already get a different sequence with the existing >rand if you render on different platforms. Is that really so? Nowhere in Ugens4.c is the C function rand() called, instead it looks like an in-house algorithm is used (short integer rand = rand * 15625 + 1). However, the non-uniform or "x-class noise" random opcodes (trirand, betarand, cauchy etc in file cmath.c) call the standard C library function, so here the argument holds. Also they haven't been around for as long and they have just changed names, so nothing stops us from changing their functionality. So, my vote is: Don't change rand/randi/randh, (or at least make the old version the default if an optional is added). Instead, change the implementation of uniform() in cmath.c (which is used by all the "x-class noise" opcodes) to use some 31-bit random function. This will make the output of those opcodes cross-platform identical. If we want 63- or 1023-bit versions of random later, an option could be added when the time comes (or a dummy option now, for maximum confusion). Note that this will affect GEN21 too, since it uses the x-noise opcodes internally. Perhaps an "iseed" option should be added at the same time if people like that, no strong opinion there. (Aside: There is the undocumented opcode "seed", but this might as well stay undocumented: Unless I've misread the code in cmath.c, it looks like the last instance of seed (the one appearing in the highest-numbered instrument) will init all x-class noise opcodes on a global level, so you couldn't presently tweak two x-noise opcodes in the same orchestra independently. Further, if you add another x-noise opcode to any instrument, all instances of these opcodes will have their pseudo-random sequences changed, since they all end up calling the same ANSI C function. This would make the present "seed" of limited use. ) Regards, rasmus ekman Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23090; 11 Nov 98 8:20 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa18852; 11 Nov 98 8:20 GMT Received: (qmail 14218 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 08:20:21 -0000 Received: from lix.intercom.es (root@194.179.21.2) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 08:20:21 -0000 Received: from intercom.es (iv2-225.intercom.es [195.76.206.225]) by lix.intercom.es (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08446; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:22:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3649473F.DFAF69CB@intercom.es> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:13:51 +0100 From: Josep M Comajuncosas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Csound list , John Ficht , Hans Mikelson , Gabriel Maldonado , Michael Gogins , Robin Whittle Subject: tapw : An opcode suggestion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Let me suggest to the masters in the list the possibility to add a new opcode. It should work like deltapi (that it, inside a delayr/delayw pair) but injecting and audio signal inside the delay line, and not extracting it. This simple hack would allow a great simplification of multiple feedbacked delay lines (Gardner reverbs are an example, also piecewiese waveguide instruments with tone holes and so on...), which till now must be modelled with multiple delayr/delayw pairs. They would only need a single pair and as much deltapi/tapw pairs as needed inside it. It should work like delayw, something like tapw asig, ktime, imode asig - Signal to be injected into the delay line. Uses linear interpolation. ktime - Time in seconds imode - = 0 (default) mix with the current value in the delay =! 0 replace existing value. Or viceversa maybe... What do you think? Ive never attempted to add a new opcode, it might well be easy, but Ive never tried it. Id really like something like this, it seems logical and useful. Josep M Comajuncosas Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23098; 11 Nov 98 8:23 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id ab19070; 11 Nov 98 8:23 GMT Received: (qmail 14354 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 08:23:26 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 08:23:26 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (IAA03464); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:20:17 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:20:02 GMT Received: from root@lix.intercom.es [194.179.21.2] by hermes via ESMTP (IAA04411); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:20:00 GMT Received: from intercom.es (iv2-225.intercom.es [195.76.206.225]) by lix.intercom.es (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08439; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:22:09 +0100 Message-ID: <364944D9.B63FD6CD@intercom.es> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:03:37 +0100 From: Josep M Comajuncosas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rasmus ekman CC: Csound list Subject: Re: Random vote (Re: Random numbers again ???) References: <003901be0cdf$b72be4a0$15e167ce@default> <36489A9C.6806FC9A@bright.net> <199811110536.GAA02796@mb05.swip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id IAA04411 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk rasmus ekman wrote: > There is the undocumented opcode "seed", but this might as well stay > undocumented: Unless I've misread the code in cmath.c, it looks like th= e > last instance of seed (the one appearing in the highest-numbered instru= ment) > will init all x-class noise opcodes on a global level I noticed this when trying to add some random vibrato stuff with multiple= detuned oscillators using gaussian noise with independent "seed"=B4s. It was neve= r thick enough for this reason. It should really be fixed. Which is the usability= of a random opcode, no matter its length, if it always outputs the same sequen= ce?? It won=B4t work for multiple chorus, nor for algorithmic composition, nothin= g... just as "noise"... Josep M Comajuncosas Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23104; 11 Nov 98 8:23 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa19076; 11 Nov 98 8:23 GMT Received: (qmail 11317 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 08:23:28 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 08:23:28 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (IAA14017); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:20:16 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:20:01 GMT Received: from root@lix.intercom.es [194.179.21.2] by hermes via ESMTP (IAA09437); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:19:59 GMT Received: from intercom.es (iv2-225.intercom.es [195.76.206.225]) by lix.intercom.es (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA08446; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:22:13 +0100 Message-ID: <3649473F.DFAF69CB@intercom.es> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:13:51 +0100 From: Josep M Comajuncosas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Csound list , John Ficht , Hans Mikelson , Gabriel Maldonado , Michael Gogins , Robin Whittle Subject: tapw : An opcode suggestion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id IAA09437 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Let me suggest to the masters in the list the possibility to add a new opcode. It should work like deltapi (that it, inside a delayr/delayw pair) but injecting and audio signal inside the delay line, and not extracting it. This simple hack would allow a great simplification of multiple feedbacked delay lines (Gardner reverbs are an example, also piecewiese waveguide instruments with tone holes and so on...), which till now must be modelled with multiple delayr/delayw pairs. They would only need a single pair and as much deltapi/tapw pairs as needed inside it. It should work like delayw, something like tapw asig, ktime, imode asig - Signal to be injected into the delay line. Uses linear interpolation. ktime - Time in seconds imode - =3D 0 (default) mix with the current value in the delay =3D! 0 replace existing value. Or viceversa maybe... What do you think? I=B4ve never attempted to add a new opcode, it might well be easy, but I=B4ve never tried it. I=B4d really like something like this, it seems logical and useful. Josep M Comajuncosas Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23257; 11 Nov 98 9:32 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa26034; 11 Nov 98 9:32 GMT Received: (qmail 15572 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 09:32:38 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 09:32:38 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA14944); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:47 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:15 GMT Received: from smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235] by hermes via ESMTP (JAA16835); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:13 GMT Received: from oemcomputer (207-172-91-66.s3.as2.nyb.erols.com [207.172.91.66]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA21872; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:30:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <364952DF.3D2C@erols.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:03:27 -0500 From: Paul Winkler Reply-To: zarmzarm@erols.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aaron Isaksen CC: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Aaron Isaksen wrote: > > How about a Perl interface to CM? Because then I'd have to learn CM first, and then I probably wouldn't bother with an interface to it. :) But that's a good project for on down the line... --PW Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23265; 11 Nov 98 9:33 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa26111; 11 Nov 98 9:33 GMT Received: (qmail 15587 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 09:33:09 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 09:33:09 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA20484); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:48 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:16 GMT Received: from smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235] by hermes via ESMTP (JAA11808); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:15 GMT Received: from oemcomputer (207-172-91-66.s3.as2.nyb.erols.com [207.172.91.66]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA21878; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:30:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <364956EE.1B8@erols.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:20:46 -0500 From: Paul Winkler Reply-To: zarmzarm@erols.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Troxler CC: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Larry Troxler wrote: > > Why not just use CM (if you don't mind using Lisp instead of perl). You, Frank, and Aaron all make some good points, but I anticipated this question in my original post. To quote myself: > --I don't know Lisp at all. > --I like Perl. > --Lots of other people like Perl and don't know Lisp. > --Some of those people might be fellow Csounders. > --There is room for many ways to generate Csound scores... and this > might be a very useful addition to the existing tools (CM, Cscore, SCOT, > cecilia & cybil, SILENCE, HPKComposer, Midi2CS, ermmm... what else?) (I forgot TkScore!) And I will add a couple more reasons: --I think it will be fun to do. --I'm considering changing what I do for a living, and "I've written a Perl module" might be more impressive on a resume than "I know how to use Common Music" ... depends on the employer, I guess! Oh, forget it, that's a silly reason to do this project. > [Common Music] already is OO, has semantics for manipulating patterns of events, which > can be nested, etc, and allows multiple output modes > (csound,CLM,MIDI,etc.). Yes, and in fact, to people who are impatient to get to work now, and/or don't know Perl already, and/or need a multi-output-mode solution anytime soon, and/or already have some knowledge of Lisp, I would encourage them to investigate CM. I included a pointer to the CM home page in my original post for that reason. It is quite possible that my project will never become quite so ambitious as CM already is today. And as I said, it is quite possible that I myself will eventually check out CM. Maybe I will switch to CLM entirely and forget about Csound permanently. But I still think a Perl/Csound-score programming library would be useful for many purposes, and hopefully easy to use. --PW Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23277; 11 Nov 98 9:33 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa26237; 11 Nov 98 9:33 GMT Received: (qmail 15621 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 09:33:42 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 09:33:42 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA01166); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:48 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:18 GMT Received: from smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235] by hermes via ESMTP (JAA16149); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:29:16 GMT Received: from oemcomputer (207-172-91-66.s3.as2.nyb.erols.com [207.172.91.66]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA21868; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:30:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3649501F.6E1F@erols.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:51:43 -0500 From: Paul Winkler Reply-To: zarmzarm@erols.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernhard Wagner CC: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Bernhard Wagner wrote: > There should be groups with semantics: > - Synchro > - Sequence > - Timeline > - Loop > The semantics of the group type Synchro assures that all events contained are > started simultaneously. > Group type Sequence assures that all events contained are played in sequence > without gaps. Whenever an event is deleted the following remaining events are > shifted to fill the gap automatically. This strict time enforcement is too inflexible for me. But someone (you?) could probably extend the module to add such things later. I do think it might be useful to associate certain kinds of behavior with certain groups of events, but nothing you've suggested really sparks my interest, sorry. However, it probably wouldn't be that hard for someone (you?) to write an add-on module to do these things, which you could optionally use via "use". > The framework also includes concepts for abstract instruments. That may be a good idea. But as I've said, my main desire is to get some work done in Csound! I don't want to let this project become a never-ending quest for the perfect composition environment. Not sure what to do. PW Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23284; 11 Nov 98 9:35 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa26477; 11 Nov 98 9:35 GMT Received: (qmail 15684 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 09:35:30 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 09:35:30 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA12813); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:32:28 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:32:17 GMT Received: from smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235] by hermes via ESMTP (JAA15766); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:32:15 GMT Received: from oemcomputer (207-172-91-66.s3.as2.nyb.erols.com [207.172.91.66]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA21882; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:30:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36495915.26A@erols.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:29:57 -0500 From: Paul Winkler Reply-To: zarmzarm@erols.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Brickle CC: Csound mailing list Subject: Re: OOP or not? (perl Csound module) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Frank Brickle wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Aaron Isaksen wrote: > > > How about a Perl interface to CM? > > ... > > On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Larry Troxler wrote: > > > > > Why not just use CM (if you don't mind using Lisp instead of perl). > > > > > > It already is OO, has semantics for manipulating patterns of events, which > > > can be nested, etc, and allows multiple output modes > > > (csound,CLM,MIDI,etc.). > > ...recalling the remark by Stephen Daedalus about > trading an absurdity that is logical and consistent > for one that is illogical and inconsistent... My music is illogical and inconsistent, I see no reason for my programming language to be any different. :) I have no interest in a Lisp-vs.-Perl argument. Scheme is already on my list of languages to learn, but I feel like I've already done too much eclectic information-gathering this year... last January I knew a few very simple shell-scripting techniques, didn't even know HTML, remembered just enough BASIC from elementary school to be able to say "10 PRINT 20 ; 20 GOTO 10"... in the spring I over-ambitiously started learning C, and actually wrote a few useful utilities (that I really use!), in the summer I quickly gulped down simple HTML, then learned enough nroff to write man-pages, then in early Fall I started on Perl and so far I really, really like Perl. At this point I feel like I will benefit a lot more from doing some serious work in one language I already understand and like, rather than learning another radically different one. > One towering advantage of CM (and Lisp) is that, > unlike Perl, it is not write-only ;-) Which means what? I'm not being grumpy, I honestly don't know what this means. PW p.s. if anybody grumbles that I've lumped in markup languages with programming languages... aw, gimme a break. Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23295; 11 Nov 98 9:41 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27057; 11 Nov 98 9:41 GMT Received: (qmail 22483 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 09:41:47 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 09:41:47 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA14099); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:38:58 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:38:43 GMT Received: from smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235] by hermes via ESMTP (JAA16391); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:38:38 GMT Received: from oemcomputer (207-172-91-66.s3.as2.nyb.erols.com [207.172.91.66]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA22422; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:40:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36495B52.8A7@erols.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:39:30 -0500 From: Paul Winkler Reply-To: zarmzarm@erols.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josep M Comajuncosas CC: Csound list Subject: Re: Random vote (Re: Random numbers again ???) References: <003901be0cdf$b72be4a0$15e167ce@default> <36489A9C.6806FC9A@bright.net> <199811110536.GAA02796@mb05.swip.net> <364944D9.B63FD6CD@intercom.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by exeter.ac.uk id JAA16391 Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Josep M Comajuncosas wrote: > Which is the usability of a > random opcode, no matter its length, if it always outputs the same sequ= ence?? It > won=B4t work for multiple chorus, nor for algorithmic composition, noth= ing... just as > "noise"... Hmm. I haven't yet used any of the random opcodes very much, but personally, this sounds like a much bigger problem than the word length. If I had an instrument using random numbers for any purpose, and I called it twice like this: i1 0 1 ... i1 0 1 ... ... I would want the two notes to do different things. Are you saying they wouldn't? That's no good! --PW Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23328; 11 Nov 98 9:50 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa27964; 11 Nov 98 9:50 GMT Received: (qmail 16488 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 09:49:59 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 09:49:59 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA26962); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:46:36 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:46:22 GMT Received: from root@mail.sci.fi [195.74.0.53] (may be forged) by hermes via ESMTP (JAA23646); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:46:20 GMT Received: from sci.fi (root@MCCLXXXII.dyn.saunalahti.fi [195.197.4.82]) by pefletti.saunalahti.fi (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04688 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:46:43 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <36495CDE.3021E96@sci.fi> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:46:06 +0200 From: Matti Koskinen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.33 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Csound list Subject: sndinfo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk hello using csound -U sndinfo .aiff shows info + the file name, doing the same for .wav shows only info, not the file names. Shouldn't it show the names too. No matter what platform, or version csound is. just wandering -matti mjkoskin@sci.fi Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23354; 11 Nov 98 9:56 GMT Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa28713; 11 Nov 98 9:56 GMT Received: (qmail 16773 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 09:56:44 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by mercury.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 09:56:44 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (JAA15978); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:52:49 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:52:37 GMT Received: from web04b.farm.aol.com [152.175.33.2] by hermes via SMTP (JAA16026); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:52:34 GMT Received: from [207.241.62.165] (poolf7-036.wwa.com [207.241.62.165]) by web04b.farm.aol.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id EAA00154 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:51:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199811110951.EAA00154@web04b.farm.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:08:58 -0600 To: Csound list From: =cw4t7abs Subject: Re: Random vote (Re: Random numbers again ???) Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk http://www.one38.org/=3Dcw4t7abs/0+7/URandomLib.sit.hqx - 1 yesh!va bo! - 1 young man ztud!ng !n 1 rab!n!kl koll.age. - took !nztrukt!onz 4rom 3 rab!tz. 1 fr!end azkd h!m h!z reakt!onz. - dze 1zt ! found v.dfklt. d!zorgan!zd + poorl! eczpla!nd - but ! undrztood what he waz ze!ng. dze 2nd waz a lot klear.r + much mor klvr. ! undrztood prt ov dzat - and dze 3rd +? dze! sa! he =3D v.good - o. he waz br!ll!ant. such 1 magn!f!sent rezonant vo!sz - !t floud az !f 4rom dze heart. ! waz tranzportd be!ond m! !mag!n!ng. tzo art!kulate tzo luc!d + ! d!dnt undrztand 1 word s!rkulr + el!pt!kl pres!j!on trajektor!ez !nterplanetar! konnekt!onz dze hundreth ov ur ord!nar! mass dze grav!tat!onl forsz free ov d!mens!onal!t! komplecz!t!ez hav teeth (def!ne deep (lambda (m) (kond ((zero? m) (kuote tzzt)) else ( konz (deep (sub1 m)) (koute ())))))) what =3D dze value ov ( zuprkountr f) wher f =3D deep +? 5 0 0 5 1 2 \|=7F\| \|abs\| - krvava gruda-plodna zemlja \|=7F\| punKtproTokol[4'7c m9ndfukc.macht.fre! < hTTp:/194.19.130.194/=3Dcw4t7ab= s Received: from stork.maths.bath.ac.uk by omphalos.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa23450; 11 Nov 98 10:35 GMT Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk by stork.maths.Bath.AC.UK id aa03448; 11 Nov 98 10:35 GMT Received: (qmail 125 invoked from network); 11 Nov 1998 10:35:09 -0000 Received: from hermes.ex.ac.uk (HELO exeter.ac.uk) (144.173.6.14) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 10:35:09 -0000 Received: from noether [144.173.8.10] by hermes via SMTP (KAA16319); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:29:47 GMT Received: from exeter.ac.uk by maths.ex.ac.uk; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:20:25 GMT Received: from smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235] by hermes via ESMTP (KAA16369); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:19:03 GMT Received: from oemcomputer (207-172-91-66.s3.as2.nyb.erols.com [207.172.91.66]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA25467; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:19:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36496476.534C@erols.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:18:30 -0500 From: Paul Winkler Reply-To: zarmzarm@erols.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eric@iamas.ac.jp CC: csound@maths.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: Perl OOP for Csound References: <199811101832.DAA32370@eric.iamas.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csound-outgoing@maths.ex.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Eric Lyon, for some reason calling himself Red Hat Linux User, wrote: > I'm glad to hear that there is considerable enthusiasm in response to > Paul Winkler's recent excellent Perl proposals. Me too. Actually I'm a little worried by it-- people want things I hadn't thought of! Too much work to do! > Let me be the one crank to suggest that OOP is not necessarily the way > to go, or perhaps is suitable for only some of the many possibilities > to which Paul alluded. I wonder if maybe a mixed approach is a reasonable idea... but the impression I get is that once you hide data inside an object, things go haywire if you try to fiddle with it without using the object's methods. Can anyone tell me if this a misconception? > OOP has several well documented benefits. However it has a few > downsides - > > 1) You have to do more typing to make something happen than with > procedural code. Bummer. In fact, BIG bummer. > 2) There is more structural overhead to consider when designing object > frameworks, which both distracts from the compositional task at hand > and can force the programmer/composer to make quick decisions about > structure which may later irritate him/her and/or other users who try > to build on or cannibalize the code. That's a concern also. I think I'd rather implement something that left you with maximum flexibility, rather than provide objects and methods for everything I can think of. In fact, I'm considering doing my own work entirely in non-OOP style and leaving it open to other people whether to implement OOP score processing. I haven't decided yet. I may start doing some work in non-OOP style and see how I like it, and whether I find myself really yearning for objects and methods... As I said, I'll be making my code available under the GPL, so anyone who has the skill and desire to chop it up and re-work it however they see fit would always be able to do that. So even if I never take an OOP approach, there's no reason someone else couldn't. One other objection to the OOP approach that I've thought of is that I'd kinda like a user of my module to be able to start composing with it just by having a basic knowledge of "Learning Perl", because that seems to be one of the most common books people have when learning Perl, and besides, "Programming Perl" costs ten bucks more. ;) I mention this because OOP is conspicuously absent from "Learning Perl," except in a breezy introduction to CGI programming at the end. > Although these may seem frivolous objections, Perl is a hacker > language, which has the benefit of allowing the programmer to make > things happen fast. This is a major advantage when programming is > happening concurrently with composition. That, in fact, is exactly why I thought of taking the module approach, rather than writing an interpreter for a newly-invented score format... I thought, "It would be no more difficult and a lot more flexible to do this directly in a Perl script." At the time I wasn't even considering OOP, I was just thinking of allowing for logical tests, iterative and recursive musical structures, and the like... > This is not to say "don't use OOP", but rather to say, "think very > carefully about if you really need it". Some of the data manipulations > Paul mentioned might well benefit from OOP if they require maintaining > state information. Such as keeping track of time? I thought I would do that with an exported global value so the user would have free reign to f**k it up however they saw fit at any time. Or were you thinking of something else? Argh. The trouble is, if I had any experience with OOP, I would know the answer to my conundrums, but I don't want to spend the time to learn OOP if it's not something I'll need right away... and every time I get a message saying "yes OOP" or "no OOP", I flip-flop... Maybe I should just start coding some more of the ideas I already have and understand, and see how I feel about it. > 1. It would be quite interesting if the resulting package is > implemented on the WWW such that different algorithms from different > people could interact to some degree. Yeek! Are you volunteering to implement this? :) > 2. Don't necessarily stick to score manipulations. Automatic > generation of orcs can be equally as interesting. I have a recent > soundfile processor generator which demonstrates orc generation at > http://eric.iamas.ac.jp/~eric/CPROC/index.cgi . Well, that's why I thought of naming the module "Csound:Pscore" rather than just "Pscore". But I will probably leave it up to others to create "Csound:Porc" or anything else they can think of. --PW