Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming

Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming

Date	2016-11-30 10:16
From	Eugene Cherny
Subject	Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	Hi folks! I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? Cheers, Eugene Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 10:20
From	Rory Walsh
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	I think Iain has given a few Csound classes to kids over the years. He might be able to provide you with some kind of insight. I imagine code less and play more is key to keeping them engaged ;) On 30 November 2016 at 10:16, Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@oscii.ru> wrote: Hi folks! I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? Cheers, Eugene Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 10:24
From	Guillermo Senna
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	And the same formula should work for adults too! On 30/11/16 07:20, Rory Walsh wrote: > I think Iain has given a few Csound classes to kids over the years. He > might be able to provide you with some kind of insight. I imagine code less > and play more is key to keeping them engaged ;) > > On 30 November 2016 at 10:16, Eugene Cherny wrote: > >> Hi folks! >> >> I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very >> excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone >> here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an >> interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? >> >> Cheers, >> Eugene >> >> Csound mailing list >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND >> Send bugs reports to >> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here >> > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 10:27
From	Rory Walsh
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	Good point, I'm guilty of forgetting that! On 30 November 2016 at 10:24, Guillermo Senna <gsenna@gmail.com> wrote: And the same formula should work for adults too! On 30/11/16 07:20, Rory Walsh wrote: > I think Iain has given a few Csound classes to kids over the years. He > might be able to provide you with some kind of insight. I imagine code less > and play more is key to keeping them engaged ;) > > On 30 November 2016 at 10:16, Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@oscii.ru> wrote: > >> Hi folks! >> >> I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very >> excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone >> here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an >> interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? >> >> Cheers, >> Eugene >> >> Csound mailing list >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND >> Send bugs reports to >> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here >> > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 11:06
From	Richard Dobson
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	Some work has been (and is being) done in this area - much depends on the target age-group. For younger children, the current "state of the art" for SMC in Schools is MIT "Scratch" (V 1.4 much better for musical purposes than 2.x, supports full GM sound-set) and "Sonic Pi", which started of course on the Raspberry Pi but is now available for Windows and Mac too. It is expressly designed to teach computing through music, but many composers have jumped on it and are doing a lot of excellent work. It uses Supercollider as the underlying synth engine (via OSC), and the coding environment is strongly wrapped Ruby: you can get a sound out simply by typing "play 60" as the first (and only) line of a script. These applications are targetted at children as young as 8, and Scratch especially is very widely used for teaching Computing in schools. Csound clearly has huge potential for such work, but in its current form is probably most appropriate and effective for GCSE (16 years olds) and above. I have even wondered about forking Sonic Pi to use Csound as the synth engine. Apart from making installation and use much easier on the hyper-restricted school networks (on which the Windows build of Sonic Pi still has problems, sometimes), it would enable it to be built for iPads etc. Needs funding! There are other initiatives more specifically focussed on e/a "Sound Art" work, not least Leigh Landy's "Compose with Sounds"; but it does not offer any scripting or computing facilities. I have links to Scratch, Sonic Pi and much else on the links page of my prototype site for SMC in Schools: http://www.rwdobson.com/smcs/smcslinks.html Richard Dobson On 30/11/2016 10:16, Eugene Cherny wrote: > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 11:09
From	Anders Genell
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	I don't know how easy it would be, but I imagine the OLPC version of csound could be a starting point? I believe John was involved so maybe he could chime in... Regards, Anders > 30 nov. 2016 kl. 11:16 skrev Eugene Cherny : > > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 13:46
From	thorin kerr
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	Once upon a time I developed a software app for kids called Jam2Jam for Mac, and the OLPC XO (using Csound as synth engine). We generally found that when kids first started using it, they want to do everything all at once. Every button gets pressed, every movable thing gets moved all over the place. It's amazing how kids will find every software bug, or secret key combination. So anyway, to engage kids beyond the first 30 seconds, we found it has to provide immediate results that are kind of interesting - not too crazy, but not too subtle. After a while, kids develop more finesse and begin to create interesting stuff. Alas, I don't think jam2jam will work anymore, but these folk seem to have a similar philosophy: https://musedlab.org/ In particular... the groove pizza. Thorin On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Anders Genell <anders.genell@gmail.com> wrote: I don't know how easy it would be, but I imagine the OLPC version of csound could be a starting point? I believe John was involved so maybe he could chime in... Regards, Anders > 30 nov. 2016 kl. 11:16 skrev Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@OSCII.RU>: > > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 15:21
From	Aaron Krister Johnson
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	In my experience, with the exception of things like Iain McCurdy's excellent ready-to-roll GUI example work (the gold standard of Csound demonstrating, if you ask me), for all its power, with Csound, the time from "installing/configuring to playing" is potentially too frustratingly long to teach adults, let alone kids. Maybe if you install the required elements for the student the story would be different...Csound install (and use) for non-power users I still regard as dicey. But, much can be taught just using Iain's example sets alone. As always, hats off to Iain for the amazing work there. If a slightly more lightweight and quicker "time to play" sonic programming environment was desired, Pyo (where you can teach DSP and Python simultaneously) or SuperCollider would be ideal. I would say Pyo even better than SC, because the GUI elements are strong, trivial to use, and cross-platform. Even better would be to entice a kid with the basics of synthesis on hardware or a ready-to-use basic softsynth on your platform; then get them into DSP programming. Things like sampling voices and triggering them on a keyboard will get them hooked into the fun. -AKJ Aaron Krister Johnson http://www.untwelve.org On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:46 AM, thorin kerr <thorin.kerr@gmail.com> wrote: Once upon a time I developed a software app for kids called Jam2Jam for Mac, and the OLPC XO (using Csound as synth engine). We generally found that when kids first started using it, they want to do everything all at once. Every button gets pressed, every movable thing gets moved all over the place. It's amazing how kids will find every software bug, or secret key combination. So anyway, to engage kids beyond the first 30 seconds, we found it has to provide immediate results that are kind of interesting - not too crazy, but not too subtle. After a while, kids develop more finesse and begin to create interesting stuff. Alas, I don't think jam2jam will work anymore, but these folk seem to have a similar philosophy: https://musedlab.org/ In particular... the groove pizza. Thorin On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Anders Genell <anders.genell@gmail.com> wrote: I don't know how easy it would be, but I imagine the OLPC version of csound could be a starting point? I believe John was involved so maybe he could chime in... Regards, Anders > 30 nov. 2016 kl. 11:16 skrev Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@OSCII.RU>: > > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 16:54
From	Eugene Cherny
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	Oh, thanks guys for the thorough replies! Definitely, now I have something to start with. Particularly, MusedLab caught my eye, and I'll probably try to do something based on their work. I'm thinking what should be the outcome of the course. It'll be 1–2 weeks course for 12–16 y.o. children, so not really much time for programming. But maybe grasping some very basics of sound by learning how to use some existing apps would be a good goal. What do you think? Eugene On Wed, Nov 30, 2016, at 17:21, Aaron Krister Johnson wrote: In my experience, with the exception of things like Iain McCurdy's excellent ready-to-roll GUI example work (the gold standard of Csound demonstrating, if you ask me), for all its power, with Csound, the time from "installing/configuring to playing" is potentially too frustratingly long to teach adults, let alone kids. Maybe if you install the required elements for the student the story would be different...Csound install (and use) for non-power users I still regard as dicey. But, much can be taught just using Iain's example sets alone. As always, hats off to Iain for the amazing work there. If a slightly more lightweight and quicker "time to play" sonic programming environment was desired, Pyo (where you can teach DSP and Python simultaneously) or SuperCollider would be ideal. I would say Pyo even better than SC, because the GUI elements are strong, trivial to use, and cross-platform. Even better would be to entice a kid with the basics of synthesis on hardware or a ready-to-use basic softsynth on your platform; then get them into DSP programming. Things like sampling voices and triggering them on a keyboard will get them hooked into the fun. -AKJ Aaron Krister Johnson http://www.untwelve.org On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:46 AM, thorin kerr <thorin.kerr@gmail.com> wrote: Once upon a time I developed a software app for kids called Jam2Jam for Mac, and the OLPC XO (using Csound as synth engine). We generally found that when kids first started using it, they want to do everything all at once. Every button gets pressed, every movable thing gets moved all over the place. It's amazing how kids will find every software bug, or secret key combination. So anyway, to engage kids beyond the first 30 seconds, we found it has to provide immediate results that are kind of interesting - not too crazy, but not too subtle. After a while, kids develop more finesse and begin to create interesting stuff. Alas, I don't think jam2jam will work anymore, but these folk seem to have a similar philosophy: https://musedlab.org/ In particular... the groove pizza. Thorin On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Anders Genell <anders.genell@gmail.com> wrote: I don't know how easy it would be, but I imagine the OLPC version of csound could be a starting point? I believe John was involved so maybe he could chime in... Regards, Anders > 30 nov. 2016 kl. 11:16 skrev Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@OSCII.RU>: > > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 20:09
From	Linda Antas
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	I've taught csound to people as young as ten. If you take care of the installs, use qt, and give working examples with comments, it's completely possible and the students have a great time. I've even done it with that age group using Common Music to generate scores. I think Sonic Pi would be a great option as well. Great SuperCollider engine, but I find the syntax of csound is much easier for beginners. Let us know what you decide and how it goes! ~Linda On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@oscii.ru> wrote: Oh, thanks guys for the thorough replies! Definitely, now I have something to start with. Particularly, MusedLab caught my eye, and I'll probably try to do something based on their work. I'm thinking what should be the outcome of the course. It'll be 1–2 weeks course for 12–16 y.o. children, so not really much time for programming. But maybe grasping some very basics of sound by learning how to use some existing apps would be a good goal. What do you think? Eugene On Wed, Nov 30, 2016, at 17:21, Aaron Krister Johnson wrote: In my experience, with the exception of things like Iain McCurdy's excellent ready-to-roll GUI example work (the gold standard of Csound demonstrating, if you ask me), for all its power, with Csound, the time from "installing/configuring to playing" is potentially too frustratingly long to teach adults, let alone kids. Maybe if you install the required elements for the student the story would be different...Csound install (and use) for non-power users I still regard as dicey. But, much can be taught just using Iain's example sets alone. As always, hats off to Iain for the amazing work there. If a slightly more lightweight and quicker "time to play" sonic programming environment was desired, Pyo (where you can teach DSP and Python simultaneously) or SuperCollider would be ideal. I would say Pyo even better than SC, because the GUI elements are strong, trivial to use, and cross-platform. Even better would be to entice a kid with the basics of synthesis on hardware or a ready-to-use basic softsynth on your platform; then get them into DSP programming. Things like sampling voices and triggering them on a keyboard will get them hooked into the fun. -AKJ Aaron Krister Johnson http://www.untwelve.org On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:46 AM, thorin kerr <thorin.kerr@gmail.com> wrote: Once upon a time I developed a software app for kids called Jam2Jam for Mac, and the OLPC XO (using Csound as synth engine). We generally found that when kids first started using it, they want to do everything all at once. Every button gets pressed, every movable thing gets moved all over the place. It's amazing how kids will find every software bug, or secret key combination. So anyway, to engage kids beyond the first 30 seconds, we found it has to provide immediate results that are kind of interesting - not too crazy, but not too subtle. After a while, kids develop more finesse and begin to create interesting stuff. Alas, I don't think jam2jam will work anymore, but these folk seem to have a similar philosophy: https://musedlab.org/ In particular... the groove pizza. Thorin On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Anders Genell <anders.genell@gmail.com> wrote: I don't know how easy it would be, but I imagine the OLPC version of csound could be a starting point? I believe John was involved so maybe he could chime in... Regards, Anders > 30 nov. 2016 kl. 11:16 skrev Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@OSCII.RU>: > > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-11-30 20:27
From	Eugene Cherny
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	Dear Linda, Could you please tell more about the content of the course you taught to the young? What was the code you did with kids in the class? And what background knowledge have you taught to them to get them fun about coding? Some thoughs: I had in mind that the course should give kids the feeling that the sound is a substance they can shape, mold, control, etc. And the theory is the second priority. …Eugene On Wed, Nov 30, 2016, at 22:09, Linda Antas wrote: I've taught csound to people as young as ten. If you take care of the installs, use qt, and give working examples with comments, it's completely possible and the students have a great time. I've even done it with that age group using Common Music to generate scores. I think Sonic Pi would be a great option as well. Great SuperCollider engine, but I find the syntax of csound is much easier for beginners. Let us know what you decide and how it goes! ~Linda On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@oscii.ru> wrote: Oh, thanks guys for the thorough replies! Definitely, now I have something to start with. Particularly, MusedLab caught my eye, and I'll probably try to do something based on their work. I'm thinking what should be the outcome of the course. It'll be 1–2 weeks course for 12–16 y.o. children, so not really much time for programming. But maybe grasping some very basics of sound by learning how to use some existing apps would be a good goal. What do you think? Eugene On Wed, Nov 30, 2016, at 17:21, Aaron Krister Johnson wrote: In my experience, with the exception of things like Iain McCurdy's excellent ready-to-roll GUI example work (the gold standard of Csound demonstrating, if you ask me), for all its power, with Csound, the time from "installing/configuring to playing" is potentially too frustratingly long to teach adults, let alone kids. Maybe if you install the required elements for the student the story would be different...Csound install (and use) for non-power users I still regard as dicey. But, much can be taught just using Iain's example sets alone. As always, hats off to Iain for the amazing work there. If a slightly more lightweight and quicker "time to play" sonic programming environment was desired, Pyo (where you can teach DSP and Python simultaneously) or SuperCollider would be ideal. I would say Pyo even better than SC, because the GUI elements are strong, trivial to use, and cross-platform. Even better would be to entice a kid with the basics of synthesis on hardware or a ready-to-use basic softsynth on your platform; then get them into DSP programming. Things like sampling voices and triggering them on a keyboard will get them hooked into the fun. -AKJ Aaron Krister Johnson http://www.untwelve.org On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:46 AM, thorin kerr <thorin.kerr@gmail.com> wrote: Once upon a time I developed a software app for kids called Jam2Jam for Mac, and the OLPC XO (using Csound as synth engine). We generally found that when kids first started using it, they want to do everything all at once. Every button gets pressed, every movable thing gets moved all over the place. It's amazing how kids will find every software bug, or secret key combination. So anyway, to engage kids beyond the first 30 seconds, we found it has to provide immediate results that are kind of interesting - not too crazy, but not too subtle. After a while, kids develop more finesse and begin to create interesting stuff. Alas, I don't think jam2jam will work anymore, but these folk seem to have a similar philosophy: https://musedlab.org/ In particular... the groove pizza. Thorin On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Anders Genell <anders.genell@gmail.com> wrote: I don't know how easy it would be, but I imagine the OLPC version of csound could be a starting point? I believe John was involved so maybe he could chime in... Regards, Anders > 30 nov. 2016 kl. 11:16 skrev Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@OSCII.RU>: > > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-12-01 03:41
From	Aaron Krister Johnson
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	Very cool, Linda! And thanks for the tip about Sonic Pi, I hadn't heard of it and it looks really cool for kids...as does Groove Pizza! Aaron Krister Johnson http://www.untwelve.org On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 2:09 PM, Linda Antas <linda.antas@gmail.com> wrote: I've taught csound to people as young as ten. If you take care of the installs, use qt, and give working examples with comments, it's completely possible and the students have a great time. I've even done it with that age group using Common Music to generate scores. I think Sonic Pi would be a great option as well. Great SuperCollider engine, but I find the syntax of csound is much easier for beginners. Let us know what you decide and how it goes! ~Linda On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@oscii.ru> wrote: Oh, thanks guys for the thorough replies! Definitely, now I have something to start with. Particularly, MusedLab caught my eye, and I'll probably try to do something based on their work. I'm thinking what should be the outcome of the course. It'll be 1–2 weeks course for 12–16 y.o. children, so not really much time for programming. But maybe grasping some very basics of sound by learning how to use some existing apps would be a good goal. What do you think? Eugene On Wed, Nov 30, 2016, at 17:21, Aaron Krister Johnson wrote: In my experience, with the exception of things like Iain McCurdy's excellent ready-to-roll GUI example work (the gold standard of Csound demonstrating, if you ask me), for all its power, with Csound, the time from "installing/configuring to playing" is potentially too frustratingly long to teach adults, let alone kids. Maybe if you install the required elements for the student the story would be different...Csound install (and use) for non-power users I still regard as dicey. But, much can be taught just using Iain's example sets alone. As always, hats off to Iain for the amazing work there. If a slightly more lightweight and quicker "time to play" sonic programming environment was desired, Pyo (where you can teach DSP and Python simultaneously) or SuperCollider would be ideal. I would say Pyo even better than SC, because the GUI elements are strong, trivial to use, and cross-platform. Even better would be to entice a kid with the basics of synthesis on hardware or a ready-to-use basic softsynth on your platform; then get them into DSP programming. Things like sampling voices and triggering them on a keyboard will get them hooked into the fun. -AKJ Aaron Krister Johnson http://www.untwelve.org On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:46 AM, thorin kerr <thorin.kerr@gmail.com> wrote: Once upon a time I developed a software app for kids called Jam2Jam for Mac, and the OLPC XO (using Csound as synth engine). We generally found that when kids first started using it, they want to do everything all at once. Every button gets pressed, every movable thing gets moved all over the place. It's amazing how kids will find every software bug, or secret key combination. So anyway, to engage kids beyond the first 30 seconds, we found it has to provide immediate results that are kind of interesting - not too crazy, but not too subtle. After a while, kids develop more finesse and begin to create interesting stuff. Alas, I don't think jam2jam will work anymore, but these folk seem to have a similar philosophy: https://musedlab.org/ In particular... the groove pizza. Thorin On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Anders Genell <anders.genell@gmail.com> wrote: I don't know how easy it would be, but I imagine the OLPC version of csound could be a starting point? I believe John was involved so maybe he could chime in... Regards, Anders > 30 nov. 2016 kl. 11:16 skrev Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@OSCII.RU>: > > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date	2016-12-02 16:03
From	Linda Antas
Subject	Re: Teaching kids sound basics and/or sound programming
	Hi Eugene, I did multiple years of 2 week long courses for the UW Summer Arts Festival in Seattle. It wasn't a "gifted" program, just for fun. But of course, there were always a few Microsoft kids. Since we had longer, we could do more involved things like I mentioned (csound and Common Music). We even did SuperCollider one year. That helped form my opinion on csound's learning curve being less steep than SC. We covered several techniques: FM, granular synthesis, vocal synthesis, sampling, etc. and had a concert on our final day. I've also done several years of a program designed to encourage 11-13 year old girls in STEM fields. (Oh yes, there was a lot of explaining to do when the Music professor calls asking to present.) Since each workshop is only 45 minutes, I use Audacity since it's so simple, cross-platform, and free. I give them a one page handout tutorial and another of with descriptions and download information on free/cheap audio software for those who want to continue on their own. I can say the one thing you really must do is sampling. This is by far the topic/sound they get most excited by. And I completely understand. Every time, there are a few who are so excited that they have to email their piece to their parents at work. I don't think there is a specific thing to do to get them interested in coding, other than show them that code can do anything, including make music. Younger kids (<15) are really fearless about this stuff and will just dive in and have fun! Feel free to pm me. Best, ~Linda On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@oscii.ru> wrote: Dear Linda, Could you please tell more about the content of the course you taught to the young? What was the code you did with kids in the class? And what background knowledge have you taught to them to get them fun about coding? Some thoughs: I had in mind that the course should give kids the feeling that the sound is a substance they can shape, mold, control, etc. And the theory is the second priority. …Eugene On Wed, Nov 30, 2016, at 22:09, Linda Antas wrote: I've taught csound to people as young as ten. If you take care of the installs, use qt, and give working examples with comments, it's completely possible and the students have a great time. I've even done it with that age group using Common Music to generate scores. I think Sonic Pi would be a great option as well. Great SuperCollider engine, but I find the syntax of csound is much easier for beginners. Let us know what you decide and how it goes! ~Linda On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@oscii.ru> wrote: Oh, thanks guys for the thorough replies! Definitely, now I have something to start with. Particularly, MusedLab caught my eye, and I'll probably try to do something based on their work. I'm thinking what should be the outcome of the course. It'll be 1–2 weeks course for 12–16 y.o. children, so not really much time for programming. But maybe grasping some very basics of sound by learning how to use some existing apps would be a good goal. What do you think? Eugene On Wed, Nov 30, 2016, at 17:21, Aaron Krister Johnson wrote: In my experience, with the exception of things like Iain McCurdy's excellent ready-to-roll GUI example work (the gold standard of Csound demonstrating, if you ask me), for all its power, with Csound, the time from "installing/configuring to playing" is potentially too frustratingly long to teach adults, let alone kids. Maybe if you install the required elements for the student the story would be different...Csound install (and use) for non-power users I still regard as dicey. But, much can be taught just using Iain's example sets alone. As always, hats off to Iain for the amazing work there. If a slightly more lightweight and quicker "time to play" sonic programming environment was desired, Pyo (where you can teach DSP and Python simultaneously) or SuperCollider would be ideal. I would say Pyo even better than SC, because the GUI elements are strong, trivial to use, and cross-platform. Even better would be to entice a kid with the basics of synthesis on hardware or a ready-to-use basic softsynth on your platform; then get them into DSP programming. Things like sampling voices and triggering them on a keyboard will get them hooked into the fun. -AKJ Aaron Krister Johnson http://www.untwelve.org On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:46 AM, thorin kerr <thorin.kerr@gmail.com> wrote: Once upon a time I developed a software app for kids called Jam2Jam for Mac, and the OLPC XO (using Csound as synth engine). We generally found that when kids first started using it, they want to do everything all at once. Every button gets pressed, every movable thing gets moved all over the place. It's amazing how kids will find every software bug, or secret key combination. So anyway, to engage kids beyond the first 30 seconds, we found it has to provide immediate results that are kind of interesting - not too crazy, but not too subtle. After a while, kids develop more finesse and begin to create interesting stuff. Alas, I don't think jam2jam will work anymore, but these folk seem to have a similar philosophy: https://musedlab.org/ In particular... the groove pizza. Thorin On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Anders Genell <anders.genell@gmail.com> wrote: I don't know how easy it would be, but I imagine the OLPC version of csound could be a starting point? I believe John was involved so maybe he could chime in... Regards, Anders > 30 nov. 2016 kl. 11:16 skrev Eugene Cherny <eugene.cherny@OSCII.RU>: > > Hi folks! > > I've been proposed recently to do a sound course for kids. I'm very > excited about that, but that's quite a new experience to me. Have anyone > here taught sound to kids before? Any suggestions on how to organize an > interesting study process to keep little folks engaged and active? > > Cheers, > Eugene > > Csound mailing list > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND > Send bugs reports to > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing listCsound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here