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Distortion When Using Short Values of deltapn

Date2016-11-15 22:20
FromEmmett Palaima
SubjectDistortion When Using Short Values of deltapn
Hi, I was working on implementing the dattorro plate reverb example from CCRMA in Csound and was using the deltapn opcode to tap create sample based delay taps like those that are used in the paper.

I am running into a strange issue where low values for deltapn will create a weird, bitcrushed sounding distortion on the output of the tap. Here is an example of where it is happening in my code:

abuffer delayr 1

atap1 deltapn 242 <no distortion

atap2 deltapn 121 < creates distortion

delayw ain


When I tried doubling the value to 242 and the distortion went away. Also tried small values on other delay taps throughout the instrument, all with the same result. I also tried isolating the section in it's own instrument which I tested with different buffer sizes and sample rates. Short values of deltapn still distort. Am I misunderstanding something about how deltapn is supposed to work, or is there another factor at play that might be causing this?


Thanks!

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date2016-11-16 09:16
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: Distortion When Using Short Values of deltapn
What is the ksmps value you are using? Remember that the minimum delay between input and output
in the delayr/w system is 1 ksmps. 

Also if you need to use one sample feedback anywhere, you will need ksmps=1.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 15 Nov 2016, at 22:20, Emmett Palaima  wrote:
> 
> Hi, I was working on implementing the dattorro plate reverb example from CCRMA in Csound and was using the deltapn opcode to tap create sample based delay taps like those that are used in the paper.
> 
> I am running into a strange issue where low values for deltapn will create a weird, bitcrushed sounding distortion on the output of the tap. Here is an example of where it is happening in my code:
> 
> abuffer	delayr 1
> atap1 deltapn 242  atap2 deltapn 121 < creates distortion
> delayw ain
> 
> When I tried doubling the value to 242 and the distortion went away. Also tried small values on other delay taps throughout the instrument, all with the same result. I also tried isolating the section in it's own instrument which I tested with different buffer sizes and sample rates. Short values of deltapn still distort. Am I misunderstanding something about how deltapn is supposed to work, or is there another factor at play that might be causing this?
> 
> Thanks!
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date2016-11-17 19:22
FromEmmett Palaima
SubjectRe: Distortion When Using Short Values of deltapn
That was it. I turned my ksmps down to 1 and the distortion is gone. 

Why is the minimum delay set by ksmps? Just wondering to improve my understanding. 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 4:16 AM, Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie> wrote:
What is the ksmps value you are using? Remember that the minimum delay between input and output
in the delayr/w system is 1 ksmps.

Also if you need to use one sample feedback anywhere, you will need ksmps=1.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 15 Nov 2016, at 22:20, Emmett Palaima <epalaima@BERKLEE.EDU> wrote:
>
> Hi, I was working on implementing the dattorro plate reverb example from CCRMA in Csound and was using the deltapn opcode to tap create sample based delay taps like those that are used in the paper.
>
> I am running into a strange issue where low values for deltapn will create a weird, bitcrushed sounding distortion on the output of the tap. Here is an example of where it is happening in my code:
>
> abuffer       delayr 1
> atap1 deltapn 242 <no distortion
> atap2 deltapn 121 < creates distortion
> delayw ain
>
> When I tried doubling the value to 242 and the distortion went away. Also tried small values on other delay taps throughout the instrument, all with the same result. I also tried isolating the section in it's own instrument which I tested with different buffer sizes and sample rates. Short values of deltapn still distort. Am I misunderstanding something about how deltapn is supposed to work, or is there another factor at play that might be causing this?
>
> Thanks!
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Date2016-11-17 19:49
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: Distortion When Using Short Values of deltapn
I have not seen your code, but I suspect that there is a 1-sample feedback delay path somewhere. To realise those you need a block size (ksmps) of 1. 

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 17 Nov 2016, at 19:23, Emmett Palaima <epalaima@BERKLEE.EDU> wrote:

That was it. I turned my ksmps down to 1 and the distortion is gone. 

Why is the minimum delay set by ksmps? Just wondering to improve my understanding. 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 4:16 AM, Victor Lazzarini <Victor.Lazzarini@nuim.ie> wrote:
What is the ksmps value you are using? Remember that the minimum delay between input and output
in the delayr/w system is 1 ksmps.

Also if you need to use one sample feedback anywhere, you will need ksmps=1.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 15 Nov 2016, at 22:20, Emmett Palaima <epalaima@BERKLEE.EDU> wrote:
>
> Hi, I was working on implementing the dattorro plate reverb example from CCRMA in Csound and was using the deltapn opcode to tap create sample based delay taps like those that are used in the paper.
>
> I am running into a strange issue where low values for deltapn will create a weird, bitcrushed sounding distortion on the output of the tap. Here is an example of where it is happening in my code:
>
> abuffer       delayr 1
> atap1 deltapn 242 <no distortion
> atap2 deltapn 121 < creates distortion
> delayw ain
>
> When I tried doubling the value to 242 and the distortion went away. Also tried small values on other delay taps throughout the instrument, all with the same result. I also tried isolating the section in it's own instrument which I tested with different buffer sizes and sample rates. Short values of deltapn still distort. Am I misunderstanding something about how deltapn is supposed to work, or is there another factor at play that might be causing this?
>
> Thanks!
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here