Hello all,

I'm currently working on a project to algorithmically generate music.
I'm a composer and not a programmer so the programming part is proving
difficult though I have made pretty good progress.

At this moment I'm using MIDI as the underlying technology. My
software is written in Lua and uses a MIDI library to create MIDI
files.

As I'm sure most of you know, MIDI has some severe limitations which
is why I might be looking to replace it.

An important note before my questions. My program does all the heavy
lifting algorithmically generating all the notes. I'll only be using
Csound as a score to generate an audio file. My software will create
the Csound file and then call Csound to generate an audio file.

Another note, my program allows one to use any tuning imaginable from
0-EDO to (depending on how I configure it) 49,152-EDO plus all kinds
of Just Intonation, etc.

With that in mind, my software maintains a table of audio frequencies
which are then converted into MIDI commands in order to create a valid
MIDI file.

One more note. My software generates music (and sheet music even) for
any instrument of the user's choosing. This is a key point.

1. I see that Csound can use soundfonts. Great! This makes it easy to
use a variety of instruments. My question is, can I use audio
frequencies with sound fonts or am I limited only to standard MIDI
notes numbers? The one example I found just used standard MIDI notes.
Can I at least send pitch bend values if I can't send audio
frequencies?

2. Or is there a General-MIDI-ish library of synthesized sounds
available for Csound? I think I found an example that allows me to
send audio frequencies for purely synthesized sounds but in order to
support all the instruments (roughly) available in General MIDI I
would need a library of synthesized sounds. I really do not understand
at all how one synthesizes the sound of acoustic instruments and so I
cannot see myself spending all this time figuring out how to do it
myself. So I really would need to be able to use a freely licensed
library of instruments. It wouldn't have to sound great, just
something like crappy General MIDI.

3. Polyphony. The problem I'm running into with MIDI is with
polyphony. Using pitch bend with Timidity I can only get 16 note
polyphony. This is because pitch bend is applied to all notes in each
channel. So playing a crazy 8-note chord using 128-EDO would use up
half of the notes available. My question then is, how many
simultaneous notes can I get playing at one time using Csound given
that I'm not generating this music live but compiling it?

Sorry for the crappy questions. I'm really struggling to understand
all the technology at play here. I've been working on this project for
two years now and the idea of switching the underlying audio
technology is freaking me out a bit.

Thanks,
David Bellows
http://www.platonicmusicengine.com

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Regarding polyphony the limit is your computer memory. Usual complaint is how to limit it.

Sent from TypeApp

If you want various tunings why  use MIDI?  Looks like fighting problems.

Sent from TypeApp

Hi,

if you do need MIDI in between (but it seems good for you for the notation and alternative MIDI playback), you should use fluidsynth opcodes to play the notes with fluidsynth. I think the fluidEngine can create up to 256 channels and up tp 4096 polyphony notes see

http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/fluidEngine.html

For an example I attach a csd file for creating a quartertone piano (quartertones are played when two keys next to each ther are pressed in the same time).

Have a look at the instruments 200 how pitchbend is sent and instr 4 (fluidNote) and fluidEngine and other inititation opcodes in the orchestra part in the beginning.

Hope it helps you furhter!

tarmo

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 09:34:32 AM you wrote:

> Hello all,

>

> I'm currently working on a project to algorithmically generate music.

> I'm a composer and not a programmer so the programming part is proving

> difficult though I have made pretty good progress.

>

> At this moment I'm using MIDI as the underlying technology. My

> software is written in Lua and uses a MIDI library to create MIDI

> files.

>

> As I'm sure most of you know, MIDI has some severe limitations which

> is why I might be looking to replace it.

>

> An important note before my questions. My program does all the heavy

> lifting algorithmically generating all the notes. I'll only be using

> Csound as a score to generate an audio file. My software will create

> the Csound file and then call Csound to generate an audio file.

>

> Another note, my program allows one to use any tuning imaginable from

> 0-EDO to (depending on how I configure it) 49,152-EDO plus all kinds

> of Just Intonation, etc.

>

> With that in mind, my software maintains a table of audio frequencies

> which are then converted into MIDI commands in order to create a valid

> MIDI file.

>

> One more note. My software generates music (and sheet music even) for

> any instrument of the user's choosing. This is a key point.

>

> 1. I see that Csound can use soundfonts. Great! This makes it easy to

> use a variety of instruments. My question is, can I use audio

> frequencies with sound fonts or am I limited only to standard MIDI

> notes numbers? The one example I found just used standard MIDI notes.

> Can I at least send pitch bend values if I can't send audio

> frequencies?

>

> 2. Or is there a General-MIDI-ish library of synthesized sounds

> available for Csound? I think I found an example that allows me to

> send audio frequencies for purely synthesized sounds but in order to

> support all the instruments (roughly) available in General MIDI I

> would need a library of synthesized sounds. I really do not understand

> at all how one synthesizes the sound of acoustic instruments and so I

> cannot see myself spending all this time figuring out how to do it

> myself. So I really would need to be able to use a freely licensed

> library of instruments. It wouldn't have to sound great, just

> something like crappy General MIDI.

>

> 3. Polyphony. The problem I'm running into with MIDI is with

> polyphony. Using pitch bend with Timidity I can only get 16 note

> polyphony. This is because pitch bend is applied to all notes in each

> channel. So playing a crazy 8-note chord using 128-EDO would use up

> half of the notes available. My question then is, how many

> simultaneous notes can I get playing at one time using Csound given

> that I'm not generating this music live but compiling it?

>

> Sorry for the crappy questions. I'm really struggling to understand

> all the technology at play here. I've been working on this project for

> two years now and the idea of switching the underlying audio

> technology is freaking me out a bit.

>

> Thanks,

> David Bellows

> http://www.platonicmusicengine.com

>

> Csound mailing list

> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie

> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND

> Send bugs reports to

> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues

> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Oh, forgot the file.

here it is.

tarmo

PS If you want to try it out, you need to set

fluidLoad "/home/tarmo/muusika/SFBank/acoustic_grand_piano_ydp_20080910.sf2" to a soundfont in your computer.

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 08:01:53 PM Tarmo Johannes wrote:

> Hi,

>

> if you do need MIDI in between (but it seems good for you for the notation

> and alternative MIDI playback), you should use fluidsynth opcodes to play

> the notes with fluidsynth. I think the fluidEngine can create up to 256

> channels and up tp 4096 polyphony notes see

>

> http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/fluidEngine.html

>

> For an example I attach a csd file for creating a quartertone piano

> (quartertones are played when two keys next to each ther are pressed in the

> same time).

>

> Have a look at the instruments 200 how pitchbend is sent and instr 4

> (fluidNote) and fluidEngine and other inititation opcodes in the orchestra

> part in the beginning.

>

> Hope it helps you furhter!

>

> tarmo

>

> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 09:34:32 AM you wrote:

> > Hello all,

> >

> > I'm currently working on a project to algorithmically generate music.

> > I'm a composer and not a programmer so the programming part is proving

> > difficult though I have made pretty good progress.

> >

> > At this moment I'm using MIDI as the underlying technology. My

> > software is written in Lua and uses a MIDI library to create MIDI

> > files.

> >

> > As I'm sure most of you know, MIDI has some severe limitations which

> > is why I might be looking to replace it.

> >

> > An important note before my questions. My program does all the heavy

> > lifting algorithmically generating all the notes. I'll only be using

> > Csound as a score to generate an audio file. My software will create

> > the Csound file and then call Csound to generate an audio file.

> >

> > Another note, my program allows one to use any tuning imaginable from

> > 0-EDO to (depending on how I configure it) 49,152-EDO plus all kinds

> > of Just Intonation, etc.

> >

> > With that in mind, my software maintains a table of audio frequencies

> > which are then converted into MIDI commands in order to create a valid

> > MIDI file.

> >

> > One more note. My software generates music (and sheet music even) for

> > any instrument of the user's choosing. This is a key point.

> >

> > 1. I see that Csound can use soundfonts. Great! This makes it easy to

> > use a variety of instruments. My question is, can I use audio

> > frequencies with sound fonts or am I limited only to standard MIDI

> > notes numbers? The one example I found just used standard MIDI notes.

> > Can I at least send pitch bend values if I can't send audio

> > frequencies?

> >

> > 2. Or is there a General-MIDI-ish library of synthesized sounds

> > available for Csound? I think I found an example that allows me to

> > send audio frequencies for purely synthesized sounds but in order to

> > support all the instruments (roughly) available in General MIDI I

> > would need a library of synthesized sounds. I really do not understand

> > at all how one synthesizes the sound of acoustic instruments and so I

> > cannot see myself spending all this time figuring out how to do it

> > myself. So I really would need to be able to use a freely licensed

> > library of instruments. It wouldn't have to sound great, just

> > something like crappy General MIDI.

> >

> > 3. Polyphony. The problem I'm running into with MIDI is with

> > polyphony. Using pitch bend with Timidity I can only get 16 note

> > polyphony. This is because pitch bend is applied to all notes in each

> > channel. So playing a crazy 8-note chord using 128-EDO would use up

> > half of the notes available. My question then is, how many

> > simultaneous notes can I get playing at one time using Csound given

> > that I'm not generating this music live but compiling it?

> >

> > Sorry for the crappy questions. I'm really struggling to understand

> > all the technology at play here. I've been working on this project for

> > two years now and the idea of switching the underlying audio

> > technology is freaking me out a bit.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > David Bellows

> > http://www.platonicmusicengine.com

> >

> > Csound mailing list

> > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie

> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND

> > Send bugs reports to

> >

> > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues

> >

> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

> If you want various tunings why  use MIDI?  Looks like fighting problems.

Exactly. I'm not a programmer and it was all I knew and the easiest to
get up and running. I might end up regretting that decision.

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:01 AM, John  wrote:
> If you want various tunings why  use MIDI?  Looks like fighting problems.
>
> Sent from TypeApp
>
> On 14 Aug 2016, at 17:45, David Bellows  wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I'm currently working on a project to algorithmically generate music.
>> I'm a composer and not a programmer so the programming part is proving
>> difficult though I have made pretty good progress.
>>
>> At this moment I'm using MIDI as the underlying technology. My
>> software is written in Lua and uses a MIDI library to create MIDI
>> files.
>>
>> As I'm sure most of you know, MIDI has some severe limitations which
>> is why I might be looking to replace it.
>>
>> An important note before my questions. My program does all the heavy
>> lifting algorithmically generating all the notes. I'll only be using
>> Csound as a score to generate an audio file. My software will create
>> the Csound file and then call Csound to generate an audio file.
>>
>> Another note, my program allows one to use any tuning imaginable from
>> 0-EDO to (depending on how I configure it) 49,152-EDO plus all kinds
>> of Just Intonation, etc.
>>
>> With that in mind, my
>> software maintains a table of audio frequencies
>> which are then converted into MIDI commands in order to create a valid
>> MIDI file.
>>
>> One more note. My software generates music (and sheet music even) for
>> any instrument of the user's choosing. This is a key point.
>>
>> 1. I see that Csound can use soundfonts. Great! This makes it easy to
>> use a variety of instruments. My question is, can I use audio
>> frequencies with sound fonts or am I limited only to standard MIDI
>> notes numbers? The one example I found just used standard MIDI notes.
>> Can I at least send pitch bend values if I can't send audio
>> frequencies?
>>
>> 2. Or is there a General-MIDI-ish library of synthesized sounds
>> available for Csound? I think I found an example that allows me to
>> send audio frequencies for purely synthesized sounds but in order to
>> support all the instruments (roughly) available in General MIDI I
>> would need a library of synthesized sounds. I really do not
>> understand
>> at all how one synthesizes the sound of acoustic instruments and so I
>> cannot see myself spending all this time figuring out how to do it
>> myself. So I really would need to be able to use a freely licensed
>> library of instruments. It wouldn't have to sound great, just
>> something like crappy General MIDI.
>>
>> 3. Polyphony. The problem I'm running into with MIDI is with
>> polyphony. Using pitch bend with Timidity I can only get 16 note
>> polyphony. This is because pitch bend is applied to all notes in each
>> channel. So playing a crazy 8-note chord using 128-EDO would use up
>> half of the notes available. My question then is, how many
>> simultaneous notes can I get playing at one time using Csound given
>> that I'm not generating this music live but compiling it?
>>
>> Sorry for the crappy questions. I'm really struggling to understand
>> all the technology at play here. I've been working on this project for
>> two years now and the idea of switching the
>> underlying audio
>> technology is freaking me out a bit.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> David Bellows
>> http://www.platonicmusicengine.com
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 10:11:57 AM you wrote:

> > If you want various tunings why use MIDI? Looks like fighting problems.

>

> Exactly. I'm not a programmer and it was all I knew and the easiest to

> get up and running. I might end up regretting that decision.

I agree, if you find suitable Csound instruments, getting fluidsynth out of the way is much better and all the frequency and microtonal calculations are well supported in Csound, it makes little sense to turn it into pitchbend.

I think there is nothing like a General MIDI emulation as Csound instruments.

If you are beginner, U suggest go through the examples in CsoundQt (especially the ones by Iaim McCurdy) in CsoundQt or Cabbage to find sounds that please you.

Best!

tarmo

>

> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:01 AM, John <jpff@codemist.co.uk> wrote:

> > If you want various tunings why use MIDI? Looks like fighting problems.

> >

> > Sent from TypeApp

> >

> > On 14 Aug 2016, at 17:45, David Bellows <davebellows@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> >> Hello all,

> >>

> >> I'm currently working on a project to algorithmically generate music.

> >> I'm a composer and not a programmer so the programming part is proving

> >> difficult though I have made pretty good progress.

> >>

> >> At this moment I'm using MIDI as the underlying technology. My

> >> software is written in Lua and uses a MIDI library to create MIDI

> >> files.

> >>

> >> As I'm sure most of you know, MIDI has some severe limitations which

> >> is why I might be looking to replace it.

> >>

> >> An important note before my questions. My program does all the heavy

> >> lifting algorithmically generating all the notes. I'll only be using

> >> Csound as a score to generate an audio file. My software will create

> >> the Csound file and then call Csound to generate an audio file.

> >>

> >> Another note, my program allows one to use any tuning imaginable from

> >> 0-EDO to (depending on how I configure it) 49,152-EDO plus all kinds

> >> of Just Intonation, etc.

> >>

> >> With that in mind, my

> >> software maintains a table of audio frequencies

> >> which are then converted into MIDI commands in order to create a valid

> >> MIDI file.

> >>

> >> One more note. My software generates music (and sheet music even) for

> >> any instrument of the user's choosing. This is a key point.

> >>

> >> 1. I see that Csound can use soundfonts. Great! This makes it easy to

> >> use a variety of instruments. My question is, can I use audio

> >> frequencies with sound fonts or am I limited only to standard MIDI

> >> notes numbers? The one example I found just used standard MIDI notes.

> >> Can I at least send pitch bend values if I can't send audio

> >> frequencies?

> >>

> >> 2. Or is there a General-MIDI-ish library of synthesized sounds

> >> available for Csound? I think I found an example that allows me to

> >> send audio frequencies for purely synthesized sounds but in order to

> >> support all the instruments (roughly) available in General MIDI I

> >> would need a library of synthesized sounds. I really do not

> >> understand

> >> at all how one synthesizes the sound of acoustic instruments and so I

> >> cannot see myself spending all this time figuring out how to do it

> >> myself. So I really would need to be able to use a freely licensed

> >> library of instruments. It wouldn't have to sound great, just

> >> something like crappy General MIDI.

> >>

> >> 3. Polyphony. The problem I'm running into with MIDI is with

> >> polyphony. Using pitch bend with Timidity I can only get 16 note

> >> polyphony. This is because pitch bend is applied to all notes in each

> >> channel. So playing a crazy 8-note chord using 128-EDO would use up

> >> half of the notes available. My question then is, how many

> >> simultaneous notes can I get playing at one time using Csound given

> >> that I'm not generating this music live but compiling it?

> >>

> >> Sorry for the crappy questions. I'm really struggling to understand

> >> all the technology at play here. I've been working on this project for

> >> two years now and the idea of switching the

> >> underlying audio

> >> technology is freaking me out a bit.

> >>

> >> Thanks,

> >> David Bellows

> >> http://www.platonicmusicengine.com

> >>

> >> Csound mailing list

> >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie

> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND

> >> Send bugs reports to

> >>

> >> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues

> >>

> >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

> >

> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie

> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to

> > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features

> > can be posted here

>

> Csound mailing list

> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie

> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND

> Send bugs reports to

> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues

> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

> if you do need MIDI in between (but it seems good for you for the notation and alternative MIDI playback), you should use fluidsynth opcodes to play the notes with fluidsynth. I think the fluidEngine can create up to 256 channels and up tp 4096 polyphony notes see

Oh wow. I had no idea Fluidsynth could do this. This actually pretty
much solves my problem. I had been using Timidity because Fluidsynth
does not handle the MIDI Tuning Standard but switching to using pitch
bend for microtones is not actually all that bad and especially now
that I see it can handle 256 channels. Wow.

I was unable to get your file to play, it kept saying something about
syntax errors in the first line (and then the second if I deleted the
first comment, and so on), but are you saying I can send different
pitch bends in each channel? That sounds like magic but if I can't
it's no big deal -- the 256 channels more than solves my problem.

> I agree, if you find suitable Csound instruments, getting fluidsynth out of the way is much better and all the frequency and microtonal calculations are well supported in Csound, it makes little sense to turn it into pitchbend.
>  I think there is nothing like a General MIDI emulation as Csound instruments.


Yeah, I was afraid of that. But honestly, now that I see that
Fluidsynth solves my inherent problem I might just stick with MIDI.
But one more question, do you (or anyone) know what resolution Csound
can achieve? Depending on how I use Timidity I can either get
196608-EDO when using the MIDI Tuning Standard or 49152-EDO using
pitch bend. I think the latter is sufficient for my needs but if
Csound can go even higher then that would be worth considering.

> If you are beginner, U suggest go through the examples in CsoundQt (especially the ones by Iaim McCurdy) in CsoundQt or Cabbage to find sounds that please you.

I'll check these out.

And thanks, you've pretty much already solved what felt like a crisis
in the making!

Dave

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Tarmo Johannes
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> if you do need MIDI in between (but it seems good for you for the notation
> and alternative MIDI playback), you should use fluidsynth opcodes to play
> the notes with fluidsynth. I think the fluidEngine can create up to 256
> channels and up tp 4096 polyphony notes see
>
>
>
> http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/fluidEngine.html
>
>
>
> For an example I attach a csd file for creating a quartertone piano
> (quartertones are played when two keys next to each ther are pressed in the
> same time).
>
>
>
> Have a look at the instruments 200 how pitchbend is sent and instr 4
> (fluidNote) and fluidEngine and other inititation opcodes in the orchestra
> part in the beginning.
>
>
>
> Hope it helps you furhter!
>
>
>
> tarmo
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 14, 2016 09:34:32 AM you wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>
>>
>
>> I'm currently working on a project to algorithmically generate music.
>
>> I'm a composer and not a programmer so the programming part is proving
>
>> difficult though I have made pretty good progress.
>
>>
>
>> At this moment I'm using MIDI as the underlying technology. My
>
>> software is written in Lua and uses a MIDI library to create MIDI
>
>> files.
>
>>
>
>> As I'm sure most of you know, MIDI has some severe limitations which
>
>> is why I might be looking to replace it.
>
>>
>
>> An important note before my questions. My program does all the heavy
>
>> lifting algorithmically generating all the notes. I'll only be using
>
>> Csound as a score to generate an audio file. My software will create
>
>> the Csound file and then call Csound to generate an audio file.
>
>>
>
>> Another note, my program allows one to use any tuning imaginable from
>
>> 0-EDO to (depending on how I configure it) 49,152-EDO plus all kinds
>
>> of Just Intonation, etc.
>
>>
>
>> With that in mind, my software maintains a table of audio frequencies
>
>> which are then converted into MIDI commands in order to create a valid
>
>> MIDI file.
>
>>
>
>> One more note. My software generates music (and sheet music even) for
>
>> any instrument of the user's choosing. This is a key point.
>
>>
>
>> 1. I see that Csound can use soundfonts. Great! This makes it easy to
>
>> use a variety of instruments. My question is, can I use audio
>
>> frequencies with sound fonts or am I limited only to standard MIDI
>
>> notes numbers? The one example I found just used standard MIDI notes.
>
>> Can I at least send pitch bend values if I can't send audio
>
>> frequencies?
>
>>
>
>> 2. Or is there a General-MIDI-ish library of synthesized sounds
>
>> available for Csound? I think I found an example that allows me to
>
>> send audio frequencies for purely synthesized sounds but in order to
>
>> support all the instruments (roughly) available in General MIDI I
>
>> would need a library of synthesized sounds. I really do not understand
>
>> at all how one synthesizes the sound of acoustic instruments and so I
>
>> cannot see myself spending all this time figuring out how to do it
>
>> myself. So I really would need to be able to use a freely licensed
>
>> library of instruments. It wouldn't have to sound great, just
>
>> something like crappy General MIDI.
>
>>
>
>> 3. Polyphony. The problem I'm running into with MIDI is with
>
>> polyphony. Using pitch bend with Timidity I can only get 16 note
>
>> polyphony. This is because pitch bend is applied to all notes in each
>
>> channel. So playing a crazy 8-note chord using 128-EDO would use up
>
>> half of the notes available. My question then is, how many
>
>> simultaneous notes can I get playing at one time using Csound given
>
>> that I'm not generating this music live but compiling it?
>
>>
>
>> Sorry for the crappy questions. I'm really struggling to understand
>
>> all the technology at play here. I've been working on this project for
>
>> two years now and the idea of switching the underlying audio
>
>> technology is freaking me out a bit.
>
>>
>
>> Thanks,
>
>> David Bellows
>
>> http://www.platonicmusicengine.com
>
>>
>
>> Csound mailing list
>
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>
>> Send bugs reports to
>
>> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
>
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

> I would either use ratios, or I would use MIDI key numbers, but in Csound, these can be fractions, e.g. middle C is 60 and 60.5 is a quarter tone above middle C.

That is really interesting and I had no idea. Does this work when
loading a soundfont? And do you know the maximum resolution available
using this method?

> You can scrounge up enough good sounding Csound instruments online that you may not need MIDI sounds. In my opinion the Csound instruments often sound better anyway.

General MIDI pretty much sounds like crap so I kind of figured that
this would be the case. So it seems the problem is just assembling a
large enough collection and making sure the licensing is in order.

> You can call Csound from your Lua program.

I'm using Lua 5.3 and cannot use LuaJIT (for reasons) so I'm pretty
much limited to generating Csound files and then compiling them. I'm
ok with that (I'm doing that with MIDI now anyway).

> No synthesizer that I know of has higher resolution (in all respects, not just pitch) than Csound.

I figured this would be the case as well. Do you happen to know what
that resolution is? Truthfully I don't really need anything so crazy
as 196607-EDO but it's kind of cool to say that I have it and if it
could be higher then that would be even cooler!

Thanks for your help!

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Michael Gogins
 wrote:
> You can call Csound from your Lua program. I would not use MIDI. You will
> get much easier microtonality with Csound notes. I would either use ratios,
> or I would use MIDI key numbers, but in Csound, these can be fractions, e.g.
> middle C is 60 and 60.5 is a quarter tone above middle C. You can scrounge
> up enough good sounding Csound instruments online that you may not need MIDI
> sounds. In my opinion the Csound instruments often sound better anyway.
>
> You can either use orginal Lua with CsoundAC which includes a binding to
> Csound, or you can use LuaJIT. See the examples here:
> https://github.com/csound/csound/tree/develop/examples/lua
>
> Or you can use LuaJIT from INSIDE Csound with the Lua opcodes, i.e.you can
> embed your Lua code in your Csound source code, see the Lua examples here:
> https://github.com/csound/csound/tree/develop/examples/opcode_demos.
>
> Or of course  you can just create a Csound score from Lua and then run
> Csound.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Mike
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:11 PM, David Bellows 
> wrote:
>>
>> > If you want various tunings why  use MIDI?  Looks like fighting
>> > problems.
>>
>> Exactly. I'm not a programmer and it was all I knew and the easiest to
>> get up and running. I might end up regretting that decision.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:01 AM, John  wrote:
>> > If you want various tunings why  use MIDI?  Looks like fighting
>> > problems.
>> >
>> > Sent from TypeApp
>> >
>> > On 14 Aug 2016, at 17:45, David Bellows  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello all,
>> >>
>> >> I'm currently working on a project to algorithmically generate music.
>> >> I'm a composer and not a programmer so the programming part is proving
>> >> difficult though I have made pretty good progress.
>> >>
>> >> At this moment I'm using MIDI as the underlying technology. My
>> >> software is written in Lua and uses a MIDI library to create MIDI
>> >> files.
>> >>
>> >> As I'm sure most of you know, MIDI has some severe limitations which
>> >> is why I might be looking to replace it.
>> >>
>> >> An important note before my questions. My program does all the heavy
>> >> lifting algorithmically generating all the notes. I'll only be using
>> >> Csound as a score to generate an audio file. My software will create
>> >> the Csound file and then call Csound to generate an audio file.
>> >>
>> >> Another note, my program allows one to use any tuning imaginable from
>> >> 0-EDO to (depending on how I configure it) 49,152-EDO plus all kinds
>> >> of Just Intonation, etc.
>> >>
>> >> With that in mind, my
>> >> software maintains a table of audio frequencies
>> >> which are then converted into MIDI commands in order to create a valid
>> >> MIDI file.
>> >>
>> >> One more note. My software generates music (and sheet music even) for
>> >> any instrument of the user's choosing. This is a key point.
>> >>
>> >> 1. I see that Csound can use soundfonts. Great! This makes it easy to
>> >> use a variety of instruments. My question is, can I use audio
>> >> frequencies with sound fonts or am I limited only to standard MIDI
>> >> notes numbers? The one example I found just used standard MIDI notes.
>> >> Can I at least send pitch bend values if I can't send audio
>> >> frequencies?
>> >>
>> >> 2. Or is there a General-MIDI-ish library of synthesized sounds
>> >> available for Csound? I think I found an example that allows me to
>> >> send audio frequencies for purely synthesized sounds but in order to
>> >> support all the instruments (roughly) available in General MIDI I
>> >> would need a library of synthesized sounds. I really do not
>> >> understand
>> >> at all how one synthesizes the sound of acoustic instruments and so I
>> >> cannot see myself spending all this time figuring out how to do it
>> >> myself. So I really would need to be able to use a freely licensed
>> >> library of instruments. It wouldn't have to sound great, just
>> >> something like crappy General MIDI.
>> >>
>> >> 3. Polyphony. The problem I'm running into with MIDI is with
>> >> polyphony. Using pitch bend with Timidity I can only get 16 note
>> >> polyphony. This is because pitch bend is applied to all notes in each
>> >> channel. So playing a crazy 8-note chord using 128-EDO would use up
>> >> half of the notes available. My question then is, how many
>> >> simultaneous notes can I get playing at one time using Csound given
>> >> that I'm not generating this music live but compiling it?
>> >>
>> >> Sorry for the crappy questions. I'm really struggling to understand
>> >> all the technology at play here. I've been working on this project for
>> >> two years now and the idea of switching the
>> >> underlying audio
>> >> technology is freaking me out a bit.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> David Bellows
>> >> http://www.platonicmusicengine.com
>> >>
>> >> Csound mailing list
>> >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> >> Send bugs reports to
>> >>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >
>> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
>> > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features
>> > can
>> > be posted here
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

>You can call Csound using Lua 5.3 (I think) by loading the luaCsnd6 library if it is available for your system, see csound/examples/lua/lua_example_csd.lua.

The only problem remaining, assuming it works in 5.3, is making it
easy enough for anyone downloading my software to use. Right now there
are several external apps that people need in order to take full
advantage of my software, but none of them are libraries (all the
libraries I use are written in Lua, including the MIDI one).
Installing Csound is one thing, getting luaCsnd6 working seems like
another (like having to compile something?)

It would certainly be nicer to do all the Csound work from within my
program but calling Csound externally doesn't bother me too much.
Already Lilypond and LaTeX have to be called externally so what's one
more?

> With Csound, pitch resolution is limited only by the numerical precision of 64 bit floating point numbers, which is far beyond what you need or will ever hear.

Yeah, that's far beyond anything I'll ever need. Even the 196603 value
is beyond what I would ever need.

I'm going to start searching out some Csound instruments and playing
around with them.

Thanks again for your help!

On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Michael Gogins
 wrote:
> You can call Csound using Lua 5.3 (I think) by loading the luaCsnd6 library
> if it is available for your system, see
> csound/examples/lua/lua_example_csd.lua.
>
> The only way to get microtonality with Fluidsynth, either with Csound or by
> itself, is via MIDI.
>
> With Csound, pitch resolution is limited only by the numerical precision of
> 64 bit floating point numbers, which is far beyond what you need or will
> ever hear.
>
> I am certain that the resolution is far, far higher than 196607-EDO. It is
> probably something on the order of (Nyquist / (double precision epsilon)) /
> (octaves from 20 Hz to Nyquist) or:
>
> Double precision epsilon 1.11022302462516E-16
> Bandwidth of the young ear 20000
> Possible divisions of the bandwidth 1.8014398509482E+020
> Octaves in bandwidth 10
> Possible divisions of the octave 1.8014398509482E+019
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:37 PM, David Bellows 
> wrote:
>>
>> > I would either use ratios, or I would use MIDI key numbers, but in
>> > Csound, these can be fractions, e.g. middle C is 60 and 60.5 is a quarter
>> > tone above middle C.
>>
>> That is really interesting and I had no idea. Does this work when
>> loading a soundfont? And do you know the maximum resolution available
>> using this method?
>>
>> > You can scrounge up enough good sounding Csound instruments online that
>> > you may not need MIDI sounds. In my opinion the Csound instruments often
>> > sound better anyway.
>>
>> General MIDI pretty much sounds like crap so I kind of figured that
>> this would be the case. So it seems the problem is just assembling a
>> large enough collection and making sure the licensing is in order.
>>
>> > You can call Csound from your Lua program.
>>
>> I'm using Lua 5.3 and cannot use LuaJIT (for reasons) so I'm pretty
>> much limited to generating Csound files and then compiling them. I'm
>> ok with that (I'm doing that with MIDI now anyway).
>>
>> > No synthesizer that I know of has higher resolution (in all respects,
>> > not just pitch) than Csound.
>>
>> I figured this would be the case as well. Do you happen to know what
>> that resolution is? Truthfully I don't really need anything so crazy
>> as 196607-EDO but it's kind of cool to say that I have it and if it
>> could be higher then that would be even cooler!
>>
>> Thanks for your help!
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Michael Gogins
>>  wrote:
>> > You can call Csound from your Lua program. I would not use MIDI. You
>> > will
>> > get much easier microtonality with Csound notes. I would either use
>> > ratios,
>> > or I would use MIDI key numbers, but in Csound, these can be fractions,
>> > e.g.
>> > middle C is 60 and 60.5 is a quarter tone above middle C. You can
>> > scrounge
>> > up enough good sounding Csound instruments online that you may not need
>> > MIDI
>> > sounds. In my opinion the Csound instruments often sound better anyway.
>> >
>> > You can either use orginal Lua with CsoundAC which includes a binding to
>> > Csound, or you can use LuaJIT. See the examples here:
>> > https://github.com/csound/csound/tree/develop/examples/lua
>> >
>> > Or you can use LuaJIT from INSIDE Csound with the Lua opcodes, i.e.you
>> > can
>> > embed your Lua code in your Csound source code, see the Lua examples
>> > here:
>> > https://github.com/csound/csound/tree/develop/examples/opcode_demos.
>> >
>> > Or of course  you can just create a Csound score from Lua and then run
>> > Csound.
>> >
>> > Hope this helps,
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----------------------------------------------------
>> > Michael Gogins
>> > Irreducible Productions
>> > http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
>> > Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:11 PM, David Bellows 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > If you want various tunings why  use MIDI?  Looks like fighting
>> >> > problems.
>> >>
>> >> Exactly. I'm not a programmer and it was all I knew and the easiest to
>> >> get up and running. I might end up regretting that decision.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:01 AM, John  wrote:
>> >> > If you want various tunings why  use MIDI?  Looks like fighting
>> >> > problems.
>> >> >
>> >> > Sent from TypeApp
>> >> >
>> >> > On 14 Aug 2016, at 17:45, David Bellows 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hello all,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm currently working on a project to algorithmically generate
>> >> >> music.
>> >> >> I'm a composer and not a programmer so the programming part is
>> >> >> proving
>> >> >> difficult though I have made pretty good progress.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At this moment I'm using MIDI as the underlying technology. My
>> >> >> software is written in Lua and uses a MIDI library to create MIDI
>> >> >> files.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As I'm sure most of you know, MIDI has some severe limitations which
>> >> >> is why I might be looking to replace it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> An important note before my questions. My program does all the heavy
>> >> >> lifting algorithmically generating all the notes. I'll only be using
>> >> >> Csound as a score to generate an audio file. My software will create
>> >> >> the Csound file and then call Csound to generate an audio file.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Another note, my program allows one to use any tuning imaginable
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> 0-EDO to (depending on how I configure it) 49,152-EDO plus all kinds
>> >> >> of Just Intonation, etc.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> With that in mind, my
>> >> >> software maintains a table of audio frequencies
>> >> >> which are then converted into MIDI commands in order to create a
>> >> >> valid
>> >> >> MIDI file.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> One more note. My software generates music (and sheet music even)
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> any instrument of the user's choosing. This is a key point.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. I see that Csound can use soundfonts. Great! This makes it easy
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> use a variety of instruments. My question is, can I use audio
>> >> >> frequencies with sound fonts or am I limited only to standard MIDI
>> >> >> notes numbers? The one example I found just used standard MIDI
>> >> >> notes.
>> >> >> Can I at least send pitch bend values if I can't send audio
>> >> >> frequencies?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2. Or is there a General-MIDI-ish library of synthesized sounds
>> >> >> available for Csound? I think I found an example that allows me to
>> >> >> send audio frequencies for purely synthesized sounds but in order to
>> >> >> support all the instruments (roughly) available in General MIDI I
>> >> >> would need a library of synthesized sounds. I really do not
>> >> >> understand
>> >> >> at all how one synthesizes the sound of acoustic instruments and so
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> cannot see myself spending all this time figuring out how to do it
>> >> >> myself. So I really would need to be able to use a freely licensed
>> >> >> library of instruments. It wouldn't have to sound great, just
>> >> >> something like crappy General MIDI.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 3. Polyphony. The problem I'm running into with MIDI is with
>> >> >> polyphony. Using pitch bend with Timidity I can only get 16 note
>> >> >> polyphony. This is because pitch bend is applied to all notes in
>> >> >> each
>> >> >> channel. So playing a crazy 8-note chord using 128-EDO would use up
>> >> >> half of the notes available. My question then is, how many
>> >> >> simultaneous notes can I get playing at one time using Csound given
>> >> >> that I'm not generating this music live but compiling it?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sorry for the crappy questions. I'm really struggling to understand
>> >> >> all the technology at play here. I've been working on this project
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> two years now and the idea of switching the
>> >> >> underlying audio
>> >> >> technology is freaking me out a bit.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks,
>> >> >> David Bellows
>> >> >> http://www.platonicmusicengine.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Csound mailing list
>> >> >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> >> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> >> >> Send bugs reports to
>> >> >>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> >> >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >> >
>> >> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> >> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
>> >> > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and
>> >> > features
>> >> > can
>> >> > be posted here
>> >>
>> >> Csound mailing list
>> >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> >> Send bugs reports to
>> >>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >
>> >
>> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
>> > https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features
>> > can
>> > be posted here
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here