Just wondering, anyone watched this (yet)? Thoughts?

https://soul-lang.org

In a crude nutshell - have all audio code (written in the new dedicated 
language) compiled and run inside the device driver. Hence, a new 
language, presented as a sort of openGL for audio. Of course it reminds 
me of both Extended Csound and SASL in Mpeg4 (neither of which is 
mentioned at all), such that I wonder if this really is "the first".

Richard Dobson

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
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Send bugs reports to
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Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

someone sent me the link, but I have not actually watched it yet. You’re right that these kinds of
bombastic sentences make me suspicious.

I have seen this type of thing elsewhere. The development of Web Audio, for instance, seemed
to ignore all the 50 years of computer music languages behind it.
 
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 29 Nov 2018, at 12:20, Richard Dobson  wrote:
> 
> Just wondering, anyone watched this (yet)? Thoughts?
> 
> https://soul-lang.org
> 
> In a crude nutshell - have all audio code (written in the new dedicated language) compiled and run inside the device driver. Hence, a new language, presented as a sort of openGL for audio. Of course it reminds me of both Extended Csound and SASL in Mpeg4 (neither of which is mentioned at all), such that I wonder if this really is "the first".
> 
> Richard Dobson
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here


Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

I thought Cuda was well supported on Linux.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 29 Nov 2018, at 12:55, Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
> 
> Can't understand what he means with using seperate audio unit as processing unit. Is it like Kyma? The Nvidia CUDA is still quite unexplored, too bad that Nvidia seems to hate linux users.
> 
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 13:45, Rory Walsh  wrote:
> I watched it. Let's see how it is in practice. The people involved seem to know what they're doing as far as I can tell. I wouldn't mind the hype.  
> 
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 12:21, Richard Dobson  wrote:
> Just wondering, anyone watched this (yet)? Thoughts?
> 
> https://soul-lang.org
> 
> In a crude nutshell - have all audio code (written in the new dedicated 
> language) compiled and run inside the device driver. Hence, a new 
> language, presented as a sort of openGL for audio. Of course it reminds 
> me of both Extended Csound and SASL in Mpeg4 (neither of which is 
> mentioned at all), such that I wonder if this really is "the first".
> 
> Richard Dobson
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here


Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

TL;DR: Julian Storer wants to have one ring to rule them all. Sounds
good, will be more work than planned, and as presented will leave out
some features and issues that may be critical for Csound users or for
composers.

Details:

I listened to the whole presentation. I don't doubt the abilities of
Julian Storer, and I don't doubt the technicalities of the
presentation.

I have some understanding of the issues here because I have performed
pieces I wrote using OpenGL Shader Language (GLSL) code to produce
videos and sampled some data to generate Csound scores. This was based
on adapting both ShaderToy infrastructure code and example code. Note:
ShaderToy has audio examples, which may have given Storer
the idea for SOUL. I also have experience with WebAssembly which is
also relevant.

The basic idea of running audio DSP code on the GPU or other specialized
processors using technology similar to GLSL is quite sound as far as it
goes: round trips through the middle layers of audio processing are cut way
down by running within much lower layers, and some specialized processors,
especially the GPU, can be much faster than the CPU.

The idea of providing programs as source code for a multi-target
compiler is also quite sound, this is the same as WASM and I expect
this trend to become more and more dominant.

What is missing:

-- File reading and writing entirely within this low level language is
not possible. Oops, all the round trips through the middle layers come
right back in to do file access.

-- No very clear presentation of how to use sampled audio, though it
will be possible by talking to the system via streams. This obviously
involves file access, see above. Not implemented yet.

-- No mention of dynamic voice allocation, one of the big strong
points of Csound.

-- No mention of time/frequency processing e.g. phase vocoding. Some
discussion of partitioned convolution with multi-rate buffers, which
should enable phase vocoding along the lines of Csound's PVS opcodes.

-- No mention of multi-threaded rendering, a small strong point of
Csound, which will become a bigger strong point. But Storer wrote
Traktion so should implement this.

-- License? "liberally licensed" whatever that means. JUCE is dual
licensed with GPL v3 which is not directly compatible with Csound, I
prefer open source, not free software.

-- Providing a compiler that translates SOUL source code properly
to multiple targets is by no means a small task. The story of Extended
Csound indicates that targets that may start out with a significant speed
advantage over the general purpose CPU will lose this advantage in a
few years unless significant resources are devoted to maintenance.

I am registering my interest in SOUL and forwarding this email to Julian
Storer.

Regards,
Mike











-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 8:29 AM Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
>
> it's supported, well supported is an overstatement. It's a rabbit hole of proprietary, where clashes with open source drivers is common, updating linux kernel versions causes black screens of death, using preemtive RT linux needs "illegal" driver patch, using open source and proprietary drivers at the same time almost never works (bumblebee and optimus are rabbit holes onto themselves).
>
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 14:09, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>
>> I thought Cuda was well supported on Linux.
>> ========================
>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>> Maynooth University,
>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>
>> > On 29 Nov 2018, at 12:55, Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
>> >
>> > Can't understand what he means with using seperate audio unit as processing unit. Is it like Kyma? The Nvidia CUDA is still quite unexplored, too bad that Nvidia seems to hate linux users.
>> >
>> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 13:45, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>> > I watched it. Let's see how it is in practice. The people involved seem to know what they're doing as far as I can tell. I wouldn't mind the hype.
>> >
>> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 12:21, Richard Dobson  wrote:
>> > Just wondering, anyone watched this (yet)? Thoughts?
>> >
>> > https://soul-lang.org
>> >
>> > In a crude nutshell - have all audio code (written in the new dedicated
>> > language) compiled and run inside the device driver. Hence, a new
>> > language, presented as a sort of openGL for audio. Of course it reminds
>> > me of both Extended Csound and SASL in Mpeg4 (neither of which is
>> > mentioned at all), such that I wonder if this really is "the first".
>> >
>> > Richard Dobson
>> >
>> > Csound mailing list
>> > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> > Send bugs reports to
>> >         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

I posted my email on the JUCE form thread you referenced, thanks.

Regards,
Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 10:39 AM Rory Walsh  wrote:
>
> Open discussion on the JUCE forum here:
> https://forum.juce.com/t/soul-lang/30480/38
>
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 15:17, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>>
>> TL;DR: Julian Storer wants to have one ring to rule them all. Sounds
>> good, will be more work than planned, and as presented will leave out
>> some features and issues that may be critical for Csound users or for
>> composers.
>>
>> Details:
>>
>> I listened to the whole presentation. I don't doubt the abilities of
>> Julian Storer, and I don't doubt the technicalities of the
>> presentation.
>>
>> I have some understanding of the issues here because I have performed
>> pieces I wrote using OpenGL Shader Language (GLSL) code to produce
>> videos and sampled some data to generate Csound scores. This was based
>> on adapting both ShaderToy infrastructure code and example code. Note:
>> ShaderToy has audio examples, which may have given Storer
>> the idea for SOUL. I also have experience with WebAssembly which is
>> also relevant.
>>
>> The basic idea of running audio DSP code on the GPU or other specialized
>> processors using technology similar to GLSL is quite sound as far as it
>> goes: round trips through the middle layers of audio processing are cut way
>> down by running within much lower layers, and some specialized processors,
>> especially the GPU, can be much faster than the CPU.
>>
>> The idea of providing programs as source code for a multi-target
>> compiler is also quite sound, this is the same as WASM and I expect
>> this trend to become more and more dominant.
>>
>> What is missing:
>>
>> -- File reading and writing entirely within this low level language is
>> not possible. Oops, all the round trips through the middle layers come
>> right back in to do file access.
>>
>> -- No very clear presentation of how to use sampled audio, though it
>> will be possible by talking to the system via streams. This obviously
>> involves file access, see above. Not implemented yet.
>>
>> -- No mention of dynamic voice allocation, one of the big strong
>> points of Csound.
>>
>> -- No mention of time/frequency processing e.g. phase vocoding. Some
>> discussion of partitioned convolution with multi-rate buffers, which
>> should enable phase vocoding along the lines of Csound's PVS opcodes.
>>
>> -- No mention of multi-threaded rendering, a small strong point of
>> Csound, which will become a bigger strong point. But Storer wrote
>> Traktion so should implement this.
>>
>> -- License? "liberally licensed" whatever that means. JUCE is dual
>> licensed with GPL v3 which is not directly compatible with Csound, I
>> prefer open source, not free software.
>>
>> -- Providing a compiler that translates SOUL source code properly
>> to multiple targets is by no means a small task. The story of Extended
>> Csound indicates that targets that may start out with a significant speed
>> advantage over the general purpose CPU will lose this advantage in a
>> few years unless significant resources are devoted to maintenance.
>>
>> I am registering my interest in SOUL and forwarding this email to Julian
>> Storer.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 8:29 AM Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
>> >
>> > it's supported, well supported is an overstatement. It's a rabbit hole of proprietary, where clashes with open source drivers is common, updating linux kernel versions causes black screens of death, using preemtive RT linux needs "illegal" driver patch, using open source and proprietary drivers at the same time almost never works (bumblebee and optimus are rabbit holes onto themselves).
>> >
>> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 14:09, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I thought Cuda was well supported on Linux.
>> >> ========================
>> >> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>> >> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>> >> Maynooth University,
>> >> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>> >> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>> >> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>> >>
>> >> > On 29 Nov 2018, at 12:55, Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Can't understand what he means with using seperate audio unit as processing unit. Is it like Kyma? The Nvidia CUDA is still quite unexplored, too bad that Nvidia seems to hate linux users.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 13:45, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>> >> > I watched it. Let's see how it is in practice. The people involved seem to know what they're doing as far as I can tell. I wouldn't mind the hype.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 12:21, Richard Dobson  wrote:
>> >> > Just wondering, anyone watched this (yet)? Thoughts?
>> >> >
>> >> > https://soul-lang.org
>> >> >
>> >> > In a crude nutshell - have all audio code (written in the new dedicated
>> >> > language) compiled and run inside the device driver. Hence, a new
>> >> > language, presented as a sort of openGL for audio. Of course it reminds
>> >> > me of both Extended Csound and SASL in Mpeg4 (neither of which is
>> >> > mentioned at all), such that I wonder if this really is "the first".
>> >> >
>> >> > Richard Dobson
>> >> >
>> >> > Csound mailing list
>> >> > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> >> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> >> > Send bugs reports to
>> >> >         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> >> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Csound mailing list
>> >> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> >> Send bugs reports to
>> >>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> >
>> > Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Thanks for this. We’ve done quite a bit of work with PVS in Csound using GPUs; there’s a paper at DAFx,
and a nice Master’s thesis where a lot of the shortcomings and benefits of these are
teased out.

In fact there is a great literature on audio in GPUs, which should not be ignored.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 29 Nov 2018, at 15:16, Michael Gogins  wrote:
> 
> TL;DR: Julian Storer wants to have one ring to rule them all. Sounds
> good, will be more work than planned, and as presented will leave out
> some features and issues that may be critical for Csound users or for
> composers.
> 
> Details:
> 
> I listened to the whole presentation. I don't doubt the abilities of
> Julian Storer, and I don't doubt the technicalities of the
> presentation.
> 
> I have some understanding of the issues here because I have performed
> pieces I wrote using OpenGL Shader Language (GLSL) code to produce
> videos and sampled some data to generate Csound scores. This was based
> on adapting both ShaderToy infrastructure code and example code. Note:
> ShaderToy has audio examples, which may have given Storer
> the idea for SOUL. I also have experience with WebAssembly which is
> also relevant.
> 
> The basic idea of running audio DSP code on the GPU or other specialized
> processors using technology similar to GLSL is quite sound as far as it
> goes: round trips through the middle layers of audio processing are cut way
> down by running within much lower layers, and some specialized processors,
> especially the GPU, can be much faster than the CPU.
> 
> The idea of providing programs as source code for a multi-target
> compiler is also quite sound, this is the same as WASM and I expect
> this trend to become more and more dominant.
> 
> What is missing:
> 
> -- File reading and writing entirely within this low level language is
> not possible. Oops, all the round trips through the middle layers come
> right back in to do file access.
> 
> -- No very clear presentation of how to use sampled audio, though it
> will be possible by talking to the system via streams. This obviously
> involves file access, see above. Not implemented yet.
> 
> -- No mention of dynamic voice allocation, one of the big strong
> points of Csound.
> 
> -- No mention of time/frequency processing e.g. phase vocoding. Some
> discussion of partitioned convolution with multi-rate buffers, which
> should enable phase vocoding along the lines of Csound's PVS opcodes.
> 
> -- No mention of multi-threaded rendering, a small strong point of
> Csound, which will become a bigger strong point. But Storer wrote
> Traktion so should implement this.
> 
> -- License? "liberally licensed" whatever that means. JUCE is dual
> licensed with GPL v3 which is not directly compatible with Csound, I
> prefer open source, not free software.
> 
> -- Providing a compiler that translates SOUL source code properly
> to multiple targets is by no means a small task. The story of Extended
> Csound indicates that targets that may start out with a significant speed
> advantage over the general purpose CPU will lose this advantage in a
> few years unless significant resources are devoted to maintenance.
> 
> I am registering my interest in SOUL and forwarding this email to Julian
> Storer.
> 
> Regards,
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
> 
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 8:29 AM Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
>> 
>> it's supported, well supported is an overstatement. It's a rabbit hole of proprietary, where clashes with open source drivers is common, updating linux kernel versions causes black screens of death, using preemtive RT linux needs "illegal" driver patch, using open source and proprietary drivers at the same time almost never works (bumblebee and optimus are rabbit holes onto themselves).
>> 
>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 14:09, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I thought Cuda was well supported on Linux.
>>> ========================
>>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> Maynooth University,
>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>> 
>>>> On 29 Nov 2018, at 12:55, Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Can't understand what he means with using seperate audio unit as processing unit. Is it like Kyma? The Nvidia CUDA is still quite unexplored, too bad that Nvidia seems to hate linux users.
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 13:45, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>>>> I watched it. Let's see how it is in practice. The people involved seem to know what they're doing as far as I can tell. I wouldn't mind the hype.
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 12:21, Richard Dobson  wrote:
>>>> Just wondering, anyone watched this (yet)? Thoughts?
>>>> 
>>>> https://soul-lang.org
>>>> 
>>>> In a crude nutshell - have all audio code (written in the new dedicated
>>>> language) compiled and run inside the device driver. Hence, a new
>>>> language, presented as a sort of openGL for audio. Of course it reminds
>>>> me of both Extended Csound and SASL in Mpeg4 (neither of which is
>>>> mentioned at all), such that I wonder if this really is "the first".
>>>> 
>>>> Richard Dobson
>>>> 
>>>> Csound mailing list
>>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> 
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here


Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

This is the Master’s Thesis:
https://www.politesi.polimi.it/bitstream/10589/122542/1/Andrea%20Crespi%20-%20Master%27s%20Thesis.pdf

This is the DAFx article:
http://www.dafx14.fau.de/papers/dafx14_victor_lazzarini_streaming_spectral_proces.pdf


========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 29 Nov 2018, at 18:40, Natanael Mojica  wrote:
> 
> Audio on gpus is a very interesting field..Can you share some links to the lierature that you mentioned? ?? 
> 
> On Nov 29, 2018 12:11, "Victor Lazzarini"  wrote:
> Thanks for this. We’ve done quite a bit of work with PVS in Csound using GPUs; there’s a paper at DAFx,
> and a nice Master’s thesis where a lot of the shortcomings and benefits of these are
> teased out.
> 
> In fact there is a great literature on audio in GPUs, which should not be ignored.
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 
> 
> > On 29 Nov 2018, at 15:16, Michael Gogins  wrote:
> > 
> > TL;DR: Julian Storer wants to have one ring to rule them all. Sounds
> > good, will be more work than planned, and as presented will leave out
> > some features and issues that may be critical for Csound users or for
> > composers.
> > 
> > Details:
> > 
> > I listened to the whole presentation. I don't doubt the abilities of
> > Julian Storer, and I don't doubt the technicalities of the
> > presentation.
> > 
> > I have some understanding of the issues here because I have performed
> > pieces I wrote using OpenGL Shader Language (GLSL) code to produce
> > videos and sampled some data to generate Csound scores. This was based
> > on adapting both ShaderToy infrastructure code and example code. Note:
> > ShaderToy has audio examples, which may have given Storer
> > the idea for SOUL. I also have experience with WebAssembly which is
> > also relevant.
> > 
> > The basic idea of running audio DSP code on the GPU or other specialized
> > processors using technology similar to GLSL is quite sound as far as it
> > goes: round trips through the middle layers of audio processing are cut way
> > down by running within much lower layers, and some specialized processors,
> > especially the GPU, can be much faster than the CPU.
> > 
> > The idea of providing programs as source code for a multi-target
> > compiler is also quite sound, this is the same as WASM and I expect
> > this trend to become more and more dominant.
> > 
> > What is missing:
> > 
> > -- File reading and writing entirely within this low level language is
> > not possible. Oops, all the round trips through the middle layers come
> > right back in to do file access.
> > 
> > -- No very clear presentation of how to use sampled audio, though it
> > will be possible by talking to the system via streams. This obviously
> > involves file access, see above. Not implemented yet.
> > 
> > -- No mention of dynamic voice allocation, one of the big strong
> > points of Csound.
> > 
> > -- No mention of time/frequency processing e.g. phase vocoding. Some
> > discussion of partitioned convolution with multi-rate buffers, which
> > should enable phase vocoding along the lines of Csound's PVS opcodes.
> > 
> > -- No mention of multi-threaded rendering, a small strong point of
> > Csound, which will become a bigger strong point. But Storer wrote
> > Traktion so should implement this.
> > 
> > -- License? "liberally licensed" whatever that means. JUCE is dual
> > licensed with GPL v3 which is not directly compatible with Csound, I
> > prefer open source, not free software.
> > 
> > -- Providing a compiler that translates SOUL source code properly
> > to multiple targets is by no means a small task. The story of Extended
> > Csound indicates that targets that may start out with a significant speed
> > advantage over the general purpose CPU will lose this advantage in a
> > few years unless significant resources are devoted to maintenance.
> > 
> > I am registering my interest in SOUL and forwarding this email to Julian
> > Storer.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > Michael Gogins
> > Irreducible Productions
> > http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
> > Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
> > 
> > On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 8:29 AM Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
> >> 
> >> it's supported, well supported is an overstatement. It's a rabbit hole of proprietary, where clashes with open source drivers is common, updating linux kernel versions causes black screens of death, using preemtive RT linux needs "illegal" driver patch, using open source and proprietary drivers at the same time almost never works (bumblebee and optimus are rabbit holes onto themselves).
> >> 
> >> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 14:09, Victor Lazzarini  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> I thought Cuda was well supported on Linux.
> >>> ========================
> >>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> >>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> >>> Maynooth University,
> >>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> >>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> >>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
> >>> 
> >>>> On 29 Nov 2018, at 12:55, Hlöðver Sigurðsson  wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> Can't understand what he means with using seperate audio unit as processing unit. Is it like Kyma? The Nvidia CUDA is still quite unexplored, too bad that Nvidia seems to hate linux users.
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 13:45, Rory Walsh  wrote:
> >>>> I watched it. Let's see how it is in practice. The people involved seem to know what they're doing as far as I can tell. I wouldn't mind the hype.
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 at 12:21, Richard Dobson  wrote:
> >>>> Just wondering, anyone watched this (yet)? Thoughts?
> >>>> 
> >>>> https://soul-lang.org
> >>>> 
> >>>> In a crude nutshell - have all audio code (written in the new dedicated
> >>>> language) compiled and run inside the device driver. Hence, a new
> >>>> language, presented as a sort of openGL for audio. Of course it reminds
> >>>> me of both Extended Csound and SASL in Mpeg4 (neither of which is
> >>>> mentioned at all), such that I wonder if this really is "the first".
> >>>> 
> >>>> Richard Dobson
> >>>> 
> >>>> Csound mailing list
> >>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> >>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> >>>> Send bugs reports to
> >>>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> >>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> >>>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> >>>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Csound mailing list
> >>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> >>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> >>> Send bugs reports to
> >>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> >>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> >> 
> >> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> > 
> > Csound mailing list
> > Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> > Send bugs reports to
> >        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> 
> Csound mailing list
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