I have composed a lot of piano music recently, which I can't play myself, but I've played the pieces through Pianoteq. They sound good that way.

I am trying, as an experiment, playing them with synthesized sounds via csound. For instance, I tried a simple instrument based on gbuzz (see below). This one, and all the instruments I tried, are "muddy" in the bass. That is, they have vague pitch definition in the bass and when there are multiple bass pitches playing at the same time you can't hear the harmonies they make--rather they sound like they stomp on each other, "get in each other's way." Also you can't relate the bass pitches to the midrange and treble pitches---you don't hear the harmonies.

Does anyone know why this might be, and what I can do to improve it?

These pieces don't have that effect when using Pianoteq, so I don't think it's the composition.

instr 2

  idur   = p3

  iamp   = p4

  ifreq  = p5

  ipitch = p6

  ; configuration

  idecayDur       = 1.5

  ipartialsBeg1   = 0.85

  ipartialsEnd1   = 0.70

  iampEnd         = 0.40

  iampAttack      = 0.001

  icosTable       = 2

  ; gbuzz partials envelope and amplitude envelope

  kpartialsEnv    expseg ipartialsBeg1, idecayDur, ipartialsEnd1

  kbuzzAmp1       expseg 1.0, idecayDur, iampEnd

  kbuzzAmp2       linseg 0.0, iampAttack, 1.0

  kbuzzAmp        = kbuzzAmp1*kbuzzAmp2

  ; signal

  asig      gbuzz kbuzzAmp, ifreq, sr/ifreq/2-1, 1, kpartialsEnv, icosTable

  ; ampl envelope: attack and declick

  kamp            linseg 0, 0.001, 1, idur-0.003, 1, 0.002, 0

  asig            = asig*iamp*kamp

                  zawm asig, 1

                  zawm asig, 2

endin

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

You might try varying the note onsets at random by about 50ms.  Simultaneous note onsets cause the effect you describe.

-- m

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:

I have composed a lot of piano music recently, which I can't play myself, but I've played the pieces through Pianoteq. They sound good that way.

I am trying, as an experiment, playing them with synthesized sounds via csound. For instance, I tried a simple instrument based on gbuzz (see below). This one, and all the instruments I tried, are "muddy" in the bass. That is, they have vague pitch definition in the bass and when there are multiple bass pitches playing at the same time you can't hear the harmonies they make--rather they sound like they stomp on each other, "get in each other's way." Also you can't relate the bass pitches to the midrange and treble pitches---you don't hear the harmonies.

Does anyone know why this might be, and what I can do to improve it?

These pieces don't have that effect when using Pianoteq, so I don't think it's the composition.

instr 2

  idur   = p3

  iamp   = p4

  ifreq  = p5

  ipitch = p6

  ; configuration

  idecayDur       = 1.5

  ipartialsBeg1   = 0.85

  ipartialsEnd1   = 0.70

  iampEnd         = 0.40

  iampAttack      = 0.001

  icosTable       = 2

  ; gbuzz partials envelope and amplitude envelope

  kpartialsEnv    expseg ipartialsBeg1, idecayDur, ipartialsEnd1

  kbuzzAmp1       expseg 1.0, idecayDur, iampEnd

  kbuzzAmp2       linseg 0.0, iampAttack, 1.0

  kbuzzAmp        = kbuzzAmp1*kbuzzAmp2

  ; signal

  asig      gbuzz kbuzzAmp, ifreq, sr/ifreq/2-1, 1, kpartialsEnv, icosTable

  ; ampl envelope: attack and declick

  kamp            linseg 0, 0.001, 1, idur-0.003, 1, 0.002, 0

  asig            = asig*iamp*kamp

                  zawm asig, 1

                  zawm asig, 2

endin

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Are you using PIanoteq in Csound via the vst4cs opcodes? I love the
Pianoteq and I use it this way all the time.

As for the sounds, a harmony or voicing may indeed sound right or
wrong depending on the overlapping partials of the notes.They can get
in the way and muddy the texture, or reinforce each other in certain
ranges, or not interfere much at all, and it's more complex because of
the role played by attack and decay; sounds with different decays will
sometimes"mix" better.

Regards,
Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have composed a lot of piano music recently, which I can't play myself,
> but I've played the pieces through Pianoteq. They sound good that way.
>
> I am trying, as an experiment, playing them with synthesized sounds via
> csound. For instance, I tried a simple instrument based on gbuzz (see
> below). This one, and all the instruments I tried, are "muddy" in the bass.
> That is, they have vague pitch definition in the bass and when there are
> multiple bass pitches playing at the same time you can't hear the harmonies
> they make--rather they sound like they stomp on each other, "get in each
> other's way." Also you can't relate the bass pitches to the midrange and
> treble pitches---you don't hear the harmonies.
>
> Does anyone know why this might be, and what I can do to improve it?
>
> These pieces don't have that effect when using Pianoteq, so I don't think
> it's the composition.
>
>
> instr 2
>
>   idur   = p3
>   iamp   = p4
>   ifreq  = p5
>   ipitch = p6
>
>   ; configuration
>   idecayDur       = 1.5
>   ipartialsBeg1   = 0.85
>   ipartialsEnd1   = 0.70
>   iampEnd         = 0.40
>   iampAttack      = 0.001
>   icosTable       = 2
>
>   ; gbuzz partials envelope and amplitude envelope
>   kpartialsEnv    expseg ipartialsBeg1, idecayDur, ipartialsEnd1
>   kbuzzAmp1       expseg 1.0, idecayDur, iampEnd
>   kbuzzAmp2       linseg 0.0, iampAttack, 1.0
>   kbuzzAmp        = kbuzzAmp1*kbuzzAmp2
>
>   ; signal
>   asig      gbuzz kbuzzAmp, ifreq, sr/ifreq/2-1, 1, kpartialsEnv, icosTable
>
>   ; ampl envelope: attack and declick
>   kamp            linseg 0, 0.001, 1, idur-0.003, 1, 0.002, 0
>
>   asig            = asig*iamp*kamp
>                   zawm asig, 1
>                   zawm asig, 2
> endin
>

> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Hi Mike,

I'm using the standalone Pianoteq or the VST plugin in Reaper. I would like to mix it with Csound instruments eventually.

Hmm, I was hoping I could make an interesting software synthesizer out of Csound with general purpose ease of use. I just want to run piano compositions through it and have them sound good without any tweaking, just as I can do with Pianoteq.

Maybe the very high partials, above 5 KHz, are too loud? Would quieting them help?

Mike

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you using PIanoteq in Csound via the vst4cs opcodes? I love the
Pianoteq and I use it this way all the time.

As for the sounds, a harmony or voicing may indeed sound right or
wrong depending on the overlapping partials of the notes.They can get
in the way and muddy the texture, or reinforce each other in certain
ranges, or not interfere much at all, and it's more complex because of
the role played by attack and decay; sounds with different decays will
sometimes"mix" better.

Regards,
Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have composed a lot of piano music recently, which I can't play myself,
> but I've played the pieces through Pianoteq. They sound good that way.
>
> I am trying, as an experiment, playing them with synthesized sounds via
> csound. For instance, I tried a simple instrument based on gbuzz (see
> below). This one, and all the instruments I tried, are "muddy" in the bass.
> That is, they have vague pitch definition in the bass and when there are
> multiple bass pitches playing at the same time you can't hear the harmonies
> they make--rather they sound like they stomp on each other, "get in each
> other's way." Also you can't relate the bass pitches to the midrange and
> treble pitches---you don't hear the harmonies.
>
> Does anyone know why this might be, and what I can do to improve it?
>
> These pieces don't have that effect when using Pianoteq, so I don't think
> it's the composition.
>
>
> instr 2
>
>   idur   = p3
>   iamp   = p4
>   ifreq  = p5
>   ipitch = p6
>
>   ; configuration
>   idecayDur       = 1.5
>   ipartialsBeg1   = 0.85
>   ipartialsEnd1   = 0.70
>   iampEnd         = 0.40
>   iampAttack      = 0.001
>   icosTable       = 2
>
>   ; gbuzz partials envelope and amplitude envelope
>   kpartialsEnv    expseg ipartialsBeg1, idecayDur, ipartialsEnd1
>   kbuzzAmp1       expseg 1.0, idecayDur, iampEnd
>   kbuzzAmp2       linseg 0.0, iampAttack, 1.0
>   kbuzzAmp        = kbuzzAmp1*kbuzzAmp2
>
>   ; signal
>   asig      gbuzz kbuzzAmp, ifreq, sr/ifreq/2-1, 1, kpartialsEnv, icosTable
>
>   ; ampl envelope: attack and declick
>   kamp            linseg 0, 0.001, 1, idur-0.003, 1, 0.002, 0
>
>   asig            = asig*iamp*kamp
>                   zawm asig, 1
>                   zawm asig, 2
> endin
>

> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

There are hundreds of synths to try in Cabbage or Csound for Live.

-dB

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike,

I'm using the standalone Pianoteq or the VST plugin in Reaper. I would like to mix it with Csound instruments eventually.

Hmm, I was hoping I could make an interesting software synthesizer out of Csound with general purpose ease of use. I just want to run piano compositions through it and have them sound good without any tweaking, just as I can do with Pianoteq.

Maybe the very high partials, above 5 KHz, are too loud? Would quieting them help?

Mike

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you using PIanoteq in Csound via the vst4cs opcodes? I love the
Pianoteq and I use it this way all the time.

As for the sounds, a harmony or voicing may indeed sound right or
wrong depending on the overlapping partials of the notes.They can get
in the way and muddy the texture, or reinforce each other in certain
ranges, or not interfere much at all, and it's more complex because of
the role played by attack and decay; sounds with different decays will
sometimes"mix" better.

Regards,
Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have composed a lot of piano music recently, which I can't play myself,
> but I've played the pieces through Pianoteq. They sound good that way.
>
> I am trying, as an experiment, playing them with synthesized sounds via
> csound. For instance, I tried a simple instrument based on gbuzz (see
> below). This one, and all the instruments I tried, are "muddy" in the bass.
> That is, they have vague pitch definition in the bass and when there are
> multiple bass pitches playing at the same time you can't hear the harmonies
> they make--rather they sound like they stomp on each other, "get in each
> other's way." Also you can't relate the bass pitches to the midrange and
> treble pitches---you don't hear the harmonies.
>
> Does anyone know why this might be, and what I can do to improve it?
>
> These pieces don't have that effect when using Pianoteq, so I don't think
> it's the composition.
>
>
> instr 2
>
>   idur   = p3
>   iamp   = p4
>   ifreq  = p5
>   ipitch = p6
>
>   ; configuration
>   idecayDur       = 1.5
>   ipartialsBeg1   = 0.85
>   ipartialsEnd1   = 0.70
>   iampEnd         = 0.40
>   iampAttack      = 0.001
>   icosTable       = 2
>
>   ; gbuzz partials envelope and amplitude envelope
>   kpartialsEnv    expseg ipartialsBeg1, idecayDur, ipartialsEnd1
>   kbuzzAmp1       expseg 1.0, idecayDur, iampEnd
>   kbuzzAmp2       linseg 0.0, iampAttack, 1.0
>   kbuzzAmp        = kbuzzAmp1*kbuzzAmp2
>
>   ; signal
>   asig      gbuzz kbuzzAmp, ifreq, sr/ifreq/2-1, 1, kpartialsEnv, icosTable
>
>   ; ampl envelope: attack and declick
>   kamp            linseg 0, 0.001, 1, idur-0.003, 1, 0.002, 0
>
>   asig            = asig*iamp*kamp
>                   zawm asig, 1
>                   zawm asig, 2
> endin
>

> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

--

_____________________________________________
Dr. Richard Boulanger
Professor of Electronic Production and Design
Professional Writing and Music Technology Division
Berklee College of Music

______________________________________________
President of Boulanger Labs - http://boulangerlabs.com
Author & Editor of The Csound Book - http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/csound-book
Author & Editor of The Audio Programming Book - http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/audio-programming-book
______________________________________________
about: http://www.boulangerlabs.com/about/richardboulanger/
about: http://www.csounds.com/community/developers/dr-richard-boulanger/
music: http://www.csounds.com/community/developers/dr-richard-boulanger/dr-richard-boulanger-music/

______________________________________________
email: rboulanger@berklee.edu
facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.boulanger.58

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Thanks for the pointer Dr. Boulanger. That's one possibility, but I was hoping to learn through experimentation and tweaking of the sort you can do in Csound, and in particular I wanted to play with different ways of using waveguides. I have some experience with types of synthesis that sound "natural" to me and work with my kind of composition, although I am not sure why it worked with algorithmic music in the past but is not working with piano compositions. Maybe my algorithmic music used the higher registers only. I think that's it.

But I will start to look into available synths.

Mike

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger <rboulanger@berklee.edu> wrote:

There are hundreds of synths to try in Cabbage or Csound for Live.

-dB

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike,

I'm using the standalone Pianoteq or the VST plugin in Reaper. I would like to mix it with Csound instruments eventually.

Hmm, I was hoping I could make an interesting software synthesizer out of Csound with general purpose ease of use. I just want to run piano compositions through it and have them sound good without any tweaking, just as I can do with Pianoteq.

Maybe the very high partials, above 5 KHz, are too loud? Would quieting them help?

Mike

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you using PIanoteq in Csound via the vst4cs opcodes? I love the
Pianoteq and I use it this way all the time.

As for the sounds, a harmony or voicing may indeed sound right or
wrong depending on the overlapping partials of the notes.They can get
in the way and muddy the texture, or reinforce each other in certain
ranges, or not interfere much at all, and it's more complex because of
the role played by attack and decay; sounds with different decays will
sometimes"mix" better.

Regards,
Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have composed a lot of piano music recently, which I can't play myself,
> but I've played the pieces through Pianoteq. They sound good that way.
>
> I am trying, as an experiment, playing them with synthesized sounds via
> csound. For instance, I tried a simple instrument based on gbuzz (see
> below). This one, and all the instruments I tried, are "muddy" in the bass.
> That is, they have vague pitch definition in the bass and when there are
> multiple bass pitches playing at the same time you can't hear the harmonies
> they make--rather they sound like they stomp on each other, "get in each
> other's way." Also you can't relate the bass pitches to the midrange and
> treble pitches---you don't hear the harmonies.
>
> Does anyone know why this might be, and what I can do to improve it?
>
> These pieces don't have that effect when using Pianoteq, so I don't think
> it's the composition.
>
>
> instr 2
>
>   idur   = p3
>   iamp   = p4
>   ifreq  = p5
>   ipitch = p6
>
>   ; configuration
>   idecayDur       = 1.5
>   ipartialsBeg1   = 0.85
>   ipartialsEnd1   = 0.70
>   iampEnd         = 0.40
>   iampAttack      = 0.001
>   icosTable       = 2
>
>   ; gbuzz partials envelope and amplitude envelope
>   kpartialsEnv    expseg ipartialsBeg1, idecayDur, ipartialsEnd1
>   kbuzzAmp1       expseg 1.0, idecayDur, iampEnd
>   kbuzzAmp2       linseg 0.0, iampAttack, 1.0
>   kbuzzAmp        = kbuzzAmp1*kbuzzAmp2
>
>   ; signal
>   asig      gbuzz kbuzzAmp, ifreq, sr/ifreq/2-1, 1, kpartialsEnv, icosTable
>
>   ; ampl envelope: attack and declick
>   kamp            linseg 0, 0.001, 1, idur-0.003, 1, 0.002, 0
>
>   asig            = asig*iamp*kamp
>                   zawm asig, 1
>                   zawm asig, 2
> endin
>

> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here

Csound mailing list
Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

--

_____________________________________________
Dr. Richard Boulanger
Professor of Electronic Production and Design
Professional Writing and Music Technology Division
Berklee College of Music

______________________________________________
President of Boulanger Labs - http://boulangerlabs.com
Author & Editor of The Csound Book - http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/csound-book
Author & Editor of The Audio Programming Book - http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/audio-programming-book
______________________________________________
about: http://www.boulangerlabs.com/about/richardboulanger/
about: http://www.csounds.com/community/developers/dr-richard-boulanger/
music: http://www.csounds.com/community/developers/dr-richard-boulanger/dr-richard-boulanger-music/

______________________________________________
email: rboulanger@berklee.edu
facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.boulanger.58

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here