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smooth tempo changes

Date2016-03-04 01:34
FromMichael Mossey
Subjectsmooth tempo changes
Supposing that I'm computing the timing of notes during an accelerando or rit, has anyone investigated what tempo curve sounds most natural? For instance, expressing the beats per minute as B(t), should B be linear in t, or exponential, or what? It's somewhat subjective, but what I want to avoid is tempo changes that seem to bunch all toward one end -- for instance, the tempo changes subjectively quite fast and then the rate of change diminishes, as opposed to a subjectively uniform change in rate.

Mike

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Date2016-03-04 01:52
FromDave Seidel
SubjectRe: smooth tempo changes

Personally, I prefer linear curves. I think we do that when we play instruments in real time, too.

On Mar 3, 2016 8:44 PM, "Michael Mossey" <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:
Supposing that I'm computing the timing of notes during an accelerando or rit, has anyone investigated what tempo curve sounds most natural? For instance, expressing the beats per minute as B(t), should B be linear in t, or exponential, or what? It's somewhat subjective, but what I want to avoid is tempo changes that seem to bunch all toward one end -- for instance, the tempo changes subjectively quite fast and then the rate of change diminishes, as opposed to a subjectively uniform change in rate.

Mike

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Date2016-03-04 10:02
FromPeter Burgess
SubjectRe: smooth tempo changes
I would agree with Dave, linear is a more natural tempo change,
exponential tempo changes sound more electronic, which are great for
certain electronic scenarios, but if it were me, I'd stick with linear
if I wanted it to sound more natural.

That said, I don't see why minor exponential curves couldn't work too,
or sections of slightly different linear changes.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:52 AM, Dave Seidel  wrote:
> Personally, I prefer linear curves. I think we do that when we play
> instruments in real time, too.
>
> On Mar 3, 2016 8:44 PM, "Michael Mossey"  wrote:
>>
>> Supposing that I'm computing the timing of notes during an accelerando or
>> rit, has anyone investigated what tempo curve sounds most natural? For
>> instance, expressing the beats per minute as B(t), should B be linear in t,
>> or exponential, or what? It's somewhat subjective, but what I want to avoid
>> is tempo changes that seem to bunch all toward one end -- for instance, the
>> tempo changes subjectively quite fast and then the rate of change
>> diminishes, as opposed to a subjectively uniform change in rate.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
>> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
>> be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here


Date2016-03-04 19:30
FromMichael Mossey
SubjectRe: smooth tempo changes
I wonder if there is some kind of law about perception of tempo that applies, the same way that pitch is perceived exponentially (or loudness, as described by the Weber-Fechner law). I don't think tempo is perceived linearally across the whole spectrum. Consider that a 10 bpm change is a huge change if the first tempo is 20 bpm, whereas a small change if the first tempo is 120 bpm. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it sounds unnatural to ramp across typical start and end tempos over a typical time period. Nor is it necessary for the tempo change to be perceived as uniform... I imagine it can be expressive for the rate to speed up or slow down.

Mike

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 2:02 AM, Peter Burgess <pete.soundtechnician@gmail.com> wrote:
I would agree with Dave, linear is a more natural tempo change,
exponential tempo changes sound more electronic, which are great for
certain electronic scenarios, but if it were me, I'd stick with linear
if I wanted it to sound more natural.

That said, I don't see why minor exponential curves couldn't work too,
or sections of slightly different linear changes.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:52 AM, Dave Seidel <dave.seidel@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally, I prefer linear curves. I think we do that when we play
> instruments in real time, too.
>
> On Mar 3, 2016 8:44 PM, "Michael Mossey" <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Supposing that I'm computing the timing of notes during an accelerando or
>> rit, has anyone investigated what tempo curve sounds most natural? For
>> instance, expressing the beats per minute as B(t), should B be linear in t,
>> or exponential, or what? It's somewhat subjective, but what I want to avoid
>> is tempo changes that seem to bunch all toward one end -- for instance, the
>> tempo changes subjectively quite fast and then the rate of change
>> diminishes, as opposed to a subjectively uniform change in rate.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
>> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
>> be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here



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Date2016-03-05 13:50
FromHlöðver Sigurðsson
SubjectRe: smooth tempo changes
Very interesting and underestimated topic. I think for computer musicians with great deal of musicmanship, it is important to understand tempo changes that happen in human performed music and apply it with numbers into computer music. DJ's have a great touch of this when changing tracks, but each techno tracks rarely includes more than one tempo, and stochastic computer music rarely includes any steady beat. So I really support this discussion. But csound has a good score statement 't' that chan accelerate and deaccelerate tempo at given time, but sending t statements from the orchestra via schedkwhen could be a way to add exponentiality, but if someone has experience with doing that, I'd be happy to read experiences.

2016-03-04 20:30 GMT+01:00 Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com>:
I wonder if there is some kind of law about perception of tempo that applies, the same way that pitch is perceived exponentially (or loudness, as described by the Weber-Fechner law). I don't think tempo is perceived linearally across the whole spectrum. Consider that a 10 bpm change is a huge change if the first tempo is 20 bpm, whereas a small change if the first tempo is 120 bpm. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it sounds unnatural to ramp across typical start and end tempos over a typical time period. Nor is it necessary for the tempo change to be perceived as uniform... I imagine it can be expressive for the rate to speed up or slow down.

Mike

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 2:02 AM, Peter Burgess <pete.soundtechnician@gmail.com> wrote:
I would agree with Dave, linear is a more natural tempo change,
exponential tempo changes sound more electronic, which are great for
certain electronic scenarios, but if it were me, I'd stick with linear
if I wanted it to sound more natural.

That said, I don't see why minor exponential curves couldn't work too,
or sections of slightly different linear changes.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:52 AM, Dave Seidel <dave.seidel@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally, I prefer linear curves. I think we do that when we play
> instruments in real time, too.
>
> On Mar 3, 2016 8:44 PM, "Michael Mossey" <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Supposing that I'm computing the timing of notes during an accelerando or
>> rit, has anyone investigated what tempo curve sounds most natural? For
>> instance, expressing the beats per minute as B(t), should B be linear in t,
>> or exponential, or what? It's somewhat subjective, but what I want to avoid
>> is tempo changes that seem to bunch all toward one end -- for instance, the
>> tempo changes subjectively quite fast and then the rate of change
>> diminishes, as opposed to a subjectively uniform change in rate.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
>> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
>> be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here



--
http://algorythmradio.com
https://soundcloud.com/algorythmradio

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Date2016-03-05 14:28
Fromluis jure
SubjectRe: smooth tempo changes
el 2016-03-05 a las 14:50 Hlöðver Sigurðsson escribió:

> Very interesting and underestimated topic. 

in fact, there has been _quite_ a lot of research in the field of
computational musicology about this topic in recent years. it began in the
late 80s - early 90s with the people like sundberg, desain and honing, and
it has had a huge increase in the last decade or so (bilmes, benadon, and
many, many others). the different aspects of microtiming have been and are
being extensively analyzed, both variations in tempo like ritardando,
accelerando and rubato, and deviations of events with respect to the
isochronous metrical grid, like notes inégales in baroque music, or swing
eight notes in jazz. i would say that this topic is hardly
"underestimated". in any case, what may happen is that the results of this
research is published in books and journals not frequented by many
musicians. Henkjan Honing, to name just one author, has most or all his
papers freely available on-line. titles like "The final ritard: on music,
motion, and kinematic models", "From time to time: The representation of
timing and tempo", or "Tempo curves considered harmful" (with Peter
Desain) should give you a pretty good idea.

by the way, i'll be presenting an article about microtiming in candombe
drumming at the Fourth International Conference on Analytical Approaches
to World Music next june in NY:

http://aawmconference.com/presenters.html

anyone in the area is cordially invited.

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Date2016-03-05 14:43
FromGareth Edwards
SubjectRe: smooth tempo changes
On the topic of tempo variations in human performed music, there are a couple of fascinating  videos of Melodyne tempo detection in action on well known pop/rock recordings



It surprised me just how much variation there was, and the stochastic nature of it. 

Cheers
Gareth

On Saturday, 5 March 2016, Hlöðver Sigurðsson <hlolli@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting and underestimated topic. I think for computer musicians with great deal of musicmanship, it is important to understand tempo changes that happen in human performed music and apply it with numbers into computer music.
DJ's have a great touch of this when changing tracks, but each techno tracks rarely includes more than one tempo, and stochastic computer music rarely includes any steady beat. So I really support this discussion. But csound has a good score statement 't' that chan accelerate and deaccelerate tempo at given time, but sending t statements from the orchestra via schedkwhen could be a way to add exponentiality, but if someone has experience with doing that, I'd be happy to read experiences.

2016-03-04 20:30 GMT+01:00 Michael Mossey <michaelmossey@gmail.com>:
I wonder if there is some kind of law about perception of tempo that applies, the same way that pitch is perceived exponentially (or loudness, as described by the Weber-Fechner law). I don't think tempo is perceived linearally across the whole spectrum. Consider that a 10 bpm change is a huge change if the first tempo is 20 bpm, whereas a small change if the first tempo is 120 bpm. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it sounds unnatural to ramp across typical start and end tempos over a typical time period. Nor is it necessary for the tempo change to be perceived as uniform... I imagine it can be expressive for the rate to speed up or slow down.

Mike

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 2:02 AM, Peter Burgess <pete.soundtechnician@gmail.com> wrote:
I would agree with Dave, linear is a more natural tempo change,
exponential tempo changes sound more electronic, which are great for
certain electronic scenarios, but if it were me, I'd stick with linear
if I wanted it to sound more natural.

That said, I don't see why minor exponential curves couldn't work too,
or sections of slightly different linear changes.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:52 AM, Dave Seidel <dave.seidel@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personally, I prefer linear curves. I think we do that when we play
> instruments in real time, too.
>
> On Mar 3, 2016 8:44 PM, "Michael Mossey" <michaelmossey@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Supposing that I'm computing the timing of notes during an accelerando or
>> rit, has anyone investigated what tempo curve sounds most natural? For
>> instance, expressing the beats per minute as B(t), should B be linear in t,
>> or exponential, or what? It's somewhat subjective, but what I want to avoid
>> is tempo changes that seem to bunch all toward one end -- for instance, the
>> tempo changes subjectively quite fast and then the rate of change
>> diminishes, as opposed to a subjectively uniform change in rate.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
>> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
>> be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to
> https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can
> be posted here



--
http://algorythmradio.com
https://soundcloud.com/algorythmradio

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Date2016-03-05 15:57
FromStéphane Rollandin
SubjectRe: smooth tempo changes
I have used parabolic curves with good effect. See a detailed 
description in part 4.1 of the following paper:

http://www.zogotounga.net/surmulot/High-level%20Musical%20Concepts%20in%20muO.pdf

A lot of tempo variations in the following piece were made this way:

http://www.zogotounga.net/zik/Tout%20va%20bien%20(merci).ogg


Stef

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