Hi All,

Another issue that came up at the Csound conference was deprecations
of opcodes and the manual.  We already have a section in the manual:

http://csound.github.io/docs/manual/DeprecatedTop.html#DeprecatedOpcodesRef

But I think from the roundtable it sounded like members of the
community present had thoughts that there should be further opcodes
that should be deprecated.  I can't recall which opcodes were
mentioned (zak perhaps to be replaced with just using arrays? slider
opcodes? fltk opcodes?).  It would be nice to discuss here any opcodes
any candidates that should be considered for deprecation.  (A
community review of the manual would also be nice to do regularly,
IMO.)

Thanks!
steven

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On Sun, 11 Oct 2015, Steven Yi wrote:
> mentioned (zak perhaps to be replaced with just using arrays? slider
> opcodes? fltk opcodes?).  It would be nice to discuss here any opcodes

It's a shame to deprecate opcodes that have no replacements, such as FLTK.
But on the other hand, if (as now) they don't really work and there seems
to be no plan to fix them, maybe it's better to deprecate them after all.
>

It’s news to me that the FLTK opcodes do not work now. Deprecated means that will be
maintained but not built on or suggested for use. So if the FLTK opcodes (or any other) are not working
as per the manual, we need to know. Please open a ticket.
========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 12 Oct 2015, at 07:00, mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 11 Oct 2015, Steven Yi wrote:
>> mentioned (zak perhaps to be replaced with just using arrays? slider
>> opcodes? fltk opcodes?).  It would be nice to discuss here any opcodes
> 
> It's a shame to deprecate opcodes that have no replacements, such as FLTK.
> But on the other hand, if (as now) they don't really work and there seems
> to be no plan to fix them, maybe it's better to deprecate them after all.
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Matthew Skala
> mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                 People before principles.
> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
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Yes, they do work.
And Matthew, what we meant was to mark them clearly in the manual, so
that new users get to know what is the current recommended way of
doing things.
The deprecated opcodes may even be built and distributed by default,
as long as we find a way of discouraging their use in new orchestras.

One suggestion could be to print a clear warning in the console when
one of them is used,
and also to not show them in the standard opcodes list (csound -z).
For -z perhaps we could have a "show-deprecated" option?

If they are built by default, all old orchestras will work out of the
box (good thing),
and if they are otherwise hidden or marked in big red letters, they
will not be used in future orchestras, and we slowly approach a better
coding practice.
If we do it like this, the search and indexing of the manual should
also be updated to not show the deprecated opcodes.






2015-10-12 9:24 GMT+02:00 Victor Lazzarini :
> It’s news to me that the FLTK opcodes do not work now. Deprecated means that will be
> maintained but not built on or suggested for use. So if the FLTK opcodes (or any other) are not working
> as per the manual, we need to know. Please open a ticket.
> ========================
> Dr Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
>> On 12 Oct 2015, at 07:00, mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 11 Oct 2015, Steven Yi wrote:
>>> mentioned (zak perhaps to be replaced with just using arrays? slider
>>> opcodes? fltk opcodes?).  It would be nice to discuss here any opcodes
>>
>> It's a shame to deprecate opcodes that have no replacements, such as FLTK.
>> But on the other hand, if (as now) they don't really work and there seems
>> to be no plan to fix them, maybe it's better to deprecate them after all.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Matthew Skala
>> mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                 People before principles.
>> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here



-- 

Oeyvind Brandtsegg
Professor of Music Technology
NTNU
7491 Trondheim
Norway
Cell: +47 92 203 205

http://flyndresang.no/
http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
http://soundcloud.com/t-emp

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I like the suggestions: warnings would be great (with a switch to silence them), and the 'show-deprecated’ or
better not showing them with -z by default. Not indexing them is also an excellent idea.

One class of opcodes that can be deprecated, for me, is the various in/out for different channel numbers.
The out and in opcodes can take variable number of in/out arguments, as well as arrays. 
So we don’t need outs, outq etc. We should retain as standard,inch/outch, because they are different, but otherwise
in and out is all we need, and the rest can be marked as deprecated.

Maybe we should start assembling a list.

Regards
========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 12 Oct 2015, at 12:00, Oeyvind Brandtsegg  wrote:
> 
> Yes, they do work.
> And Matthew, what we meant was to mark them clearly in the manual, so
> that new users get to know what is the current recommended way of
> doing things.
> The deprecated opcodes may even be built and distributed by default,
> as long as we find a way of discouraging their use in new orchestras.
> 
> One suggestion could be to print a clear warning in the console when
> one of them is used,
> and also to not show them in the standard opcodes list (csound -z).
> For -z perhaps we could have a "show-deprecated" option?
> 
> If they are built by default, all old orchestras will work out of the
> box (good thing),
> and if they are otherwise hidden or marked in big red letters, they
> will not be used in future orchestras, and we slowly approach a better
> coding practice.
> If we do it like this, the search and indexing of the manual should
> also be updated to not show the deprecated opcodes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2015-10-12 9:24 GMT+02:00 Victor Lazzarini :
>> It’s news to me that the FLTK opcodes do not work now. Deprecated means that will be
>> maintained but not built on or suggested for use. So if the FLTK opcodes (or any other) are not working
>> as per the manual, we need to know. Please open a ticket.
>> ========================
>> Dr Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
>> Maynooth University,
>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>> 
>>> On 12 Oct 2015, at 07:00, mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 11 Oct 2015, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>> mentioned (zak perhaps to be replaced with just using arrays? slider
>>>> opcodes? fltk opcodes?).  It would be nice to discuss here any opcodes
>>> 
>>> It's a shame to deprecate opcodes that have no replacements, such as FLTK.
>>> But on the other hand, if (as now) they don't really work and there seems
>>> to be no plan to fix them, maybe it's better to deprecate them after all.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Matthew Skala
>>> mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                 People before principles.
>>> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
>>> 
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> 
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Oeyvind Brandtsegg
> Professor of Music Technology
> NTNU
> 7491 Trondheim
> Norway
> Cell: +47 92 203 205
> 
> http://flyndresang.no/
> http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
> http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
> http://soundcloud.com/t-emp
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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Yes,
and, perhaps the v-opcodes (vadd, vsub etc) are also replaced by array
operations now.

What about invalue/outvalue? Are they still used (in CsoundQt?)
It would make sense to have just one bus.

And the spectrum opcodes(?), not sure?



2015-10-12 14:48 GMT+02:00 Victor Lazzarini :
> I like the suggestions: warnings would be great (with a switch to silence them), and the 'show-deprecated’ or
> better not showing them with -z by default. Not indexing them is also an excellent idea.
>
> One class of opcodes that can be deprecated, for me, is the various in/out for different channel numbers.
> The out and in opcodes can take variable number of in/out arguments, as well as arrays.
> So we don’t need outs, outq etc. We should retain as standard,inch/outch, because they are different, but otherwise
> in and out is all we need, and the rest can be marked as deprecated.
>
> Maybe we should start assembling a list.
>
> Regards
> ========================
> Dr Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
>> On 12 Oct 2015, at 12:00, Oeyvind Brandtsegg  wrote:
>>
>> Yes, they do work.
>> And Matthew, what we meant was to mark them clearly in the manual, so
>> that new users get to know what is the current recommended way of
>> doing things.
>> The deprecated opcodes may even be built and distributed by default,
>> as long as we find a way of discouraging their use in new orchestras.
>>
>> One suggestion could be to print a clear warning in the console when
>> one of them is used,
>> and also to not show them in the standard opcodes list (csound -z).
>> For -z perhaps we could have a "show-deprecated" option?
>>
>> If they are built by default, all old orchestras will work out of the
>> box (good thing),
>> and if they are otherwise hidden or marked in big red letters, they
>> will not be used in future orchestras, and we slowly approach a better
>> coding practice.
>> If we do it like this, the search and indexing of the manual should
>> also be updated to not show the deprecated opcodes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-10-12 9:24 GMT+02:00 Victor Lazzarini :
>>> It’s news to me that the FLTK opcodes do not work now. Deprecated means that will be
>>> maintained but not built on or suggested for use. So if the FLTK opcodes (or any other) are not working
>>> as per the manual, we need to know. Please open a ticket.
>>> ========================
>>> Dr Victor Lazzarini
>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
>>> Maynooth University,
>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>>
>>>> On 12 Oct 2015, at 07:00, mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 11 Oct 2015, Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>> mentioned (zak perhaps to be replaced with just using arrays? slider
>>>>> opcodes? fltk opcodes?).  It would be nice to discuss here any opcodes
>>>>
>>>> It's a shame to deprecate opcodes that have no replacements, such as FLTK.
>>>> But on the other hand, if (as now) they don't really work and there seems
>>>> to be no plan to fix them, maybe it's better to deprecate them after all.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Matthew Skala
>>>> mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                 People before principles.
>>>> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
>>>>
>>>> Csound mailing list
>>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Oeyvind Brandtsegg
>> Professor of Music Technology
>> NTNU
>> 7491 Trondheim
>> Norway
>> Cell: +47 92 203 205
>>
>> http://flyndresang.no/
>> http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
>> http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
>> http://soundcloud.com/t-emp
>>
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
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> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here



-- 

Oeyvind Brandtsegg
Professor of Music Technology
NTNU
7491 Trondheim
Norway
Cell: +47 92 203 205

http://flyndresang.no/
http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
http://soundcloud.com/t-emp

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I do not think that the fltk opcode should be deoprecated.  Tere is no 
alterbative for much of the functionsality, and nmy tcl/ktk code is rather 
limited.

I was against te inclusion of these opcodes in the first place, but now 
they are here I have many examples that use them and intended continuing 
to use them when involved in sound exploration.
==John ff

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It would be "easy" to mark depreated opcodesvin the -z output.  So do we 
supress them or tsg them with some charater, or a separate lisrt?

==John ff

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My suggest would be to suppress, and add a parameter to -z to list all.
========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 12 Oct 2015, at 14:41, jpff  wrote:
> 
> It would be "easy" to mark depreated opcodesvin the -z output.  So do we supress them or tsg them with some charater, or a separate lisrt?
> 
> ==John ff
> 
> Csound mailing list
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On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
[FLTK]
> Yes, they do work.

The opcodes to save and load snapshots of FLTK controls didn't work for me
when I tried to use them, and I thought I'd been told I shouldn't expect
them to work, although I haven't been able to find a copy of the email in
question when I looked just now.  If I didn't hallucinate that, it would
seem that at least that feature is already unofficially deprecated.

> And Matthew, what we meant was to mark them clearly in the manual, so
> that new users get to know what is the current recommended way of
> doing things.

I think it's a shame to do that with opcodes that don't have replacements,
where the current recommendation is just "don't do that."

If these don't work, it is a bug. Can you please file a ticket in github?

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

> On 4 Nov 2015, at 14:30, mskala@ANSUZ.SOOKE.BC.CA wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
>> [FLTK]
>> Yes, they do work.
> 
> The opcodes to save and load snapshots of FLTK controls didn't work for me
> when I tried to use them, and I thought I'd been told I shouldn't expect
> them to work, although I haven't been able to find a copy of the email in
> question when I looked just now.  If I didn't hallucinate that, it would
> seem that at least that feature is already unofficially deprecated.
> 
>> And Matthew, what we meant was to mark them clearly in the manual, so
>> that new users get to know what is the current recommended way of
>> doing things.
> 
> I think it's a shame to do that with opcodes that don't have replacements,
> where the current recommendation is just "don't do that."
> 
> -- 
> Matthew Skala
> mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                 People before principles.
> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
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>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
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Hi,
Oh, I was not aware of the snapshots not working. I did not test
everything, but recently opened an old csd containing FLTK widgets and
that worked. Should have been more precise in my comment. That said,
all opcodes distributed should work, and if they don't, the devs will
be very happy to get bug reports as issues on github, with an example
csd that demonstrates what is not working.
I seems there will be differing opinions on which opcodes should be
deprecated. Probably natural, as we have differing workflows and
needs. With regards to the GUI opcodes I think it would be fair to say
that the recommendation would be to solve it outside of Csound,
whether the opcodes are deprecated or not. The recommentation not
being "don't do that" but more of a gentle "it would be much easier
for you in the long run to do it this other way".

2015-11-04 15:30 GMT+01:00  :
> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
> [FLTK]
>> Yes, they do work.
>
> The opcodes to save and load snapshots of FLTK controls didn't work for me
> when I tried to use them, and I thought I'd been told I shouldn't expect
> them to work, although I haven't been able to find a copy of the email in
> question when I looked just now.  If I didn't hallucinate that, it would
> seem that at least that feature is already unofficially deprecated.
>
>> And Matthew, what we meant was to mark them clearly in the manual, so
>> that new users get to know what is the current recommended way of
>> doing things.
>
> I think it's a shame to do that with opcodes that don't have replacements,
> where the current recommendation is just "don't do that."
>
> --
> Matthew Skala
> mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                 People before principles.
> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
>
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

exactly. We're happy to look at existing bugs on any opcode, whatever status it has ( deprecated or not)

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

> On 4 Nov 2015, at 14:47, Oeyvind Brandtsegg  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Oh, I was not aware of the snapshots not working. I did not test
> everything, but recently opened an old csd containing FLTK widgets and
> that worked. Should have been more precise in my comment. That said,
> all opcodes distributed should work, and if they don't, the devs will
> be very happy to get bug reports as issues on github, with an example
> csd that demonstrates what is not working.
> I seems there will be differing opinions on which opcodes should be
> deprecated. Probably natural, as we have differing workflows and
> needs. With regards to the GUI opcodes I think it would be fair to say
> that the recommendation would be to solve it outside of Csound,
> whether the opcodes are deprecated or not. The recommentation not
> being "don't do that" but more of a gentle "it would be much easier
> for you in the long run to do it this other way".
> 
> 2015-11-04 15:30 GMT+01:00  :
>>> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015, Oeyvind Brandtsegg wrote:
>>> [FLTK]
>>> Yes, they do work.
>> 
>> The opcodes to save and load snapshots of FLTK controls didn't work for me
>> when I tried to use them, and I thought I'd been told I shouldn't expect
>> them to work, although I haven't been able to find a copy of the email in
>> question when I looked just now.  If I didn't hallucinate that, it would
>> seem that at least that feature is already unofficially deprecated.
>> 
>>> And Matthew, what we meant was to mark them clearly in the manual, so
>>> that new users get to know what is the current recommended way of
>>> doing things.
>> 
>> I think it's a shame to do that with opcodes that don't have replacements,
>> where the current recommendation is just "don't do that."
>> 
>> --
>> Matthew Skala
>> mskala@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca                 People before principles.
>> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
>> 
>> Csound mailing list
>> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Oeyvind Brandtsegg
> Professor of Music Technology
> NTNU
> 7491 Trondheim
> Norway
> Cell: +47 92 203 205
> 
> http://flyndresang.no/
> http://www.partikkelaudio.com/
> http://soundcloud.com/brandtsegg
> http://soundcloud.com/t-emp
> 
> Csound mailing list
> Csound@listserv.heanet.ie
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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