The Fall 2015 issue of Computer Music Journal contains an extensive
review of Kyma 7 by Barton McLean. I think most Csound developers and
many Csound users should read this review, even though it reads like a
sales pitch for Kyma. Here I will briefly review McLean's review.
Barton and Priscilla McLean have a long history in electronic music.

Kyma 7 is a new version of the Kyma synthesizer, which is a
programming language, derived from SmallTalk, that runs on a dedicated
hardware DSP engine. Kyma 7 has lost MIDI capabilities but has also
apparently gained many other features and a good deal of polish.

What McLean likes most about Kyma 7 is that the goods are already
cooked. There apparently is a huge library of pre-programmed "Sounds"
with a great deal of search capability, ability to quickly preview
Sounds, context-sensitive help, and so on. Kyma appears to have most
of the unit generators that Csound has and also has some features that
Csound does not have (taking an instant time/frequency analysis of any
sample or Sound that becomes a new Sound that can then be treated like
any other Sound, for example). Another interesting and useful feature
is the ability compose a patch as what they call a MultiGrid and then
be able to view and presumably edit it is a signal flow graph, which
itself becomes a Sound, etc. This reminds me of the Buzz tracker.

Many of the features that McLean describes are available either in
Csound, or in environments based on Csound, especially blue, which
obviously shares some concepts with Kyma (independent but simultaneous
Timelines for organizing Sounds, for example).

My impression, from some considerable distance, is that most of the
people who actually use Kyma are "sound designers" for games and
movies. I would be interested to hear from other composers who use
Kyma for composing electroacoustc art music, either for fixed media as
McLean does, or for interactive performance.

McLean complains that he used many synthesizers in the past and then
abandoned them when limits were hit or because backward compatibility
failed. These issues are, obviously, not a problem for Csound at all.
McLean never mentions Csound and I wonder if he knows much about it.
Of course Kyma also is proprietary and has backward compatibility
issues of its own (Kyma X projects can be imported into Kyma 7 but
then cannot be opened any more in Kyma X).

My take on Kyma 7, assuming my impressions from this review without
hands-on experience are correct, is that Kyma is streets ahead of
Csound and its environments when it comes to polish, user interface,
availability of canned patches, and ability to _easily_ switch back
and forth between the time domain and the frequency domain. Therefore,
it would seem to be way ahead in terms of quickly getting a sound
design or composition off the ground starting with pre-programmed
patches and examples.

I am also guessing that Csound is ahead of Kyma in terms of DSP
capabilities and actual musical power, has the advantage of real MIDI
support, and has external APIs. There is no mention of any external
interface in the review or on the Symbolic Sound Web site.

I don't have any clear idea how the actual sound processing speed of
Kyma 7 would compare with Csound. Of course if Csound could run things
on the GPU it would probably get considerably faster.

Of course Kyma is not cheap, even the cheapest DSP engine is several
thousand dollars.

The recent addition of HTML and JavaScript integration to Csound
provides one path towards a more polished and flexible user interface
for Csound as well as the use of Web APIs for accessing central
repositories of patches, samples, etc. I think we should think about
this, as Steven Yi and others have already done, but in a more
concerted way.

Bottom line: I have no interest in turning Csound into a Kyma clone,
but I do think there are things we can learn from here.

Comments?

Regards,
Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com

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Thanks for this. I am not quite sure what the quote below means, but Csound
can take spectral snapshots and make them available, it is just a matter of
programming an instrument for it.

========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 28 Sep 2015, at 13:31, Michael Gogins  wrote:
> 
> (taking an instant time/frequency analysis of any
> sample or Sound that becomes a new Sound that can then be treated like
> any other Sound, for example)


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Yes, that's exactly my point, I have used this capability in Csound
myself. But in Kyma you do not need to program to use this, although
you can program it if you want to.

Regards,
Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Victor Lazzarini
 wrote:
> Thanks for this. I am not quite sure what the quote below means, but Csound
> can take spectral snapshots and make them available, it is just a matter of
> programming an instrument for it.
>
> ========================
> Dr Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
>> On 28 Sep 2015, at 13:31, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>>
>> (taking an instant time/frequency analysis of any
>> sample or Sound that becomes a new Sound that can then be treated like
>> any other Sound, for example)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-users mailing list
> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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I see. Maybe this means Kyma is in competition with Native Instruments, Yamaha, Korg, etc., rather with
Csound, PD, SuperCollider.
========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 28 Sep 2015, at 14:17, Michael Gogins  wrote:
> 
> Yes, that's exactly my point, I have used this capability in Csound
> myself. But in Kyma you do not need to program to use this, although
> you can program it if you want to.
> 
> Regards,
> Mike
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Victor Lazzarini
>  wrote:
>> Thanks for this. I am not quite sure what the quote below means, but Csound
>> can take spectral snapshots and make them available, it is just a matter of
>> programming an instrument for it.
>> 
>> ========================
>> Dr Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
>> Maynooth University,
>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>> 
>>> On 28 Sep 2015, at 13:31, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>>> 
>>> (taking an instant time/frequency analysis of any
>>> sample or Sound that becomes a new Sound that can then be treated like
>>> any other Sound, for example)
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-users mailing list
>> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
> Send bugs reports to
>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here


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Yes, it competes with Native Instruments Reaktor and with Max.  But
Max certainly competes to some extent with Csound.

At any rate, my point of view is not so much "How can Csound compete
with Kyma 7?" but rather "What can Csound learn from Kyma 7?"

Regards,
Mike

-----------------------------------------------------
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Victor Lazzarini
 wrote:
> I see. Maybe this means Kyma is in competition with Native Instruments, Yamaha, Korg, etc., rather with
> Csound, PD, SuperCollider.
> ========================
> Dr Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
>> On 28 Sep 2015, at 14:17, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>>
>> Yes, that's exactly my point, I have used this capability in Csound
>> myself. But in Kyma you do not need to program to use this, although
>> you can program it if you want to.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 9:03 AM, Victor Lazzarini
>>  wrote:
>>> Thanks for this. I am not quite sure what the quote below means, but Csound
>>> can take spectral snapshots and make them available, it is just a matter of
>>> programming an instrument for it.
>>>
>>> ========================
>>> Dr Victor Lazzarini
>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
>>> Maynooth University,
>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>>
>>>> On 28 Sep 2015, at 13:31, Michael Gogins  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (taking an instant time/frequency analysis of any
>>>> sample or Sound that becomes a new Sound that can then be treated like
>>>> any other Sound, for example)
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-users mailing list
>>> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-users mailing list
>> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Csound-users mailing list
> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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thanks for the interesting review, mike.  very much appreciated.
	joachim


On 28/09/15 14:31, Michael Gogins wrote:
> The Fall 2015 issue of Computer Music Journal contains an extensive
> review of Kyma 7 by Barton McLean. I think most Csound developers and
> many Csound users should read this review, even though it reads like a
> sales pitch for Kyma. Here I will briefly review McLean's review.
> Barton and Priscilla McLean have a long history in electronic music.
>
> Kyma 7 is a new version of the Kyma synthesizer, which is a
> programming language, derived from SmallTalk, that runs on a dedicated
> hardware DSP engine. Kyma 7 has lost MIDI capabilities but has also
> apparently gained many other features and a good deal of polish.
>
> What McLean likes most about Kyma 7 is that the goods are already
> cooked. There apparently is a huge library of pre-programmed "Sounds"
> with a great deal of search capability, ability to quickly preview
> Sounds, context-sensitive help, and so on. Kyma appears to have most
> of the unit generators that Csound has and also has some features that
> Csound does not have (taking an instant time/frequency analysis of any
> sample or Sound that becomes a new Sound that can then be treated like
> any other Sound, for example). Another interesting and useful feature
> is the ability compose a patch as what they call a MultiGrid and then
> be able to view and presumably edit it is a signal flow graph, which
> itself becomes a Sound, etc. This reminds me of the Buzz tracker.
>
> Many of the features that McLean describes are available either in
> Csound, or in environments based on Csound, especially blue, which
> obviously shares some concepts with Kyma (independent but simultaneous
> Timelines for organizing Sounds, for example).
>
> My impression, from some considerable distance, is that most of the
> people who actually use Kyma are "sound designers" for games and
> movies. I would be interested to hear from other composers who use
> Kyma for composing electroacoustc art music, either for fixed media as
> McLean does, or for interactive performance.
>
> McLean complains that he used many synthesizers in the past and then
> abandoned them when limits were hit or because backward compatibility
> failed. These issues are, obviously, not a problem for Csound at all.
> McLean never mentions Csound and I wonder if he knows much about it.
> Of course Kyma also is proprietary and has backward compatibility
> issues of its own (Kyma X projects can be imported into Kyma 7 but
> then cannot be opened any more in Kyma X).
>
> My take on Kyma 7, assuming my impressions from this review without
> hands-on experience are correct, is that Kyma is streets ahead of
> Csound and its environments when it comes to polish, user interface,
> availability of canned patches, and ability to _easily_ switch back
> and forth between the time domain and the frequency domain. Therefore,
> it would seem to be way ahead in terms of quickly getting a sound
> design or composition off the ground starting with pre-programmed
> patches and examples.
>
> I am also guessing that Csound is ahead of Kyma in terms of DSP
> capabilities and actual musical power, has the advantage of real MIDI
> support, and has external APIs. There is no mention of any external
> interface in the review or on the Symbolic Sound Web site.
>
> I don't have any clear idea how the actual sound processing speed of
> Kyma 7 would compare with Csound. Of course if Csound could run things
> on the GPU it would probably get considerably faster.
>
> Of course Kyma is not cheap, even the cheapest DSP engine is several
> thousand dollars.
>
> The recent addition of HTML and JavaScript integration to Csound
> provides one path towards a more polished and flexible user interface
> for Csound as well as the use of Web APIs for accessing central
> repositories of patches, samples, etc. I think we should think about
> this, as Steven Yi and others have already done, but in a more
> concerted way.
>
> Bottom line: I have no interest in turning Csound into a Kyma clone,
> but I do think there are things we can learn from here.
>
> Comments?
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>

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Thanks for bringing this up. I've always been interested in Kyma but 
could never afford it!

Agostino Di Scipio uses Kyma for his ecosystemic feedback-based works. 
So it does definitively lend itself to electroacoustic music. Of course 
his signal flow could also be designed in Csound, pd, sc3 or Max.

https://www.ak.tu-berlin.de/fileadmin/a0135/Unterrichtsmaterial/Di_Scipio/Sound_is_the_interface.PDF

Best,
P

On 28/09/2015 13:31, Michael Gogins wrote:
> The Fall 2015 issue of Computer Music Journal contains an extensive
> review of Kyma 7 by Barton McLean. I think most Csound developers and
> many Csound users should read this review, even though it reads like a
> sales pitch for Kyma. Here I will briefly review McLean's review.
> Barton and Priscilla McLean have a long history in electronic music.
>
> Kyma 7 is a new version of the Kyma synthesizer, which is a
> programming language, derived from SmallTalk, that runs on a dedicated
> hardware DSP engine. Kyma 7 has lost MIDI capabilities but has also
> apparently gained many other features and a good deal of polish.
>
> What McLean likes most about Kyma 7 is that the goods are already
> cooked. There apparently is a huge library of pre-programmed "Sounds"
> with a great deal of search capability, ability to quickly preview
> Sounds, context-sensitive help, and so on. Kyma appears to have most
> of the unit generators that Csound has and also has some features that
> Csound does not have (taking an instant time/frequency analysis of any
> sample or Sound that becomes a new Sound that can then be treated like
> any other Sound, for example). Another interesting and useful feature
> is the ability compose a patch as what they call a MultiGrid and then
> be able to view and presumably edit it is a signal flow graph, which
> itself becomes a Sound, etc. This reminds me of the Buzz tracker.
>
> Many of the features that McLean describes are available either in
> Csound, or in environments based on Csound, especially blue, which
> obviously shares some concepts with Kyma (independent but simultaneous
> Timelines for organizing Sounds, for example).
>
> My impression, from some considerable distance, is that most of the
> people who actually use Kyma are "sound designers" for games and
> movies. I would be interested to hear from other composers who use
> Kyma for composing electroacoustc art music, either for fixed media as
> McLean does, or for interactive performance.
>
> McLean complains that he used many synthesizers in the past and then
> abandoned them when limits were hit or because backward compatibility
> failed. These issues are, obviously, not a problem for Csound at all.
> McLean never mentions Csound and I wonder if he knows much about it.
> Of course Kyma also is proprietary and has backward compatibility
> issues of its own (Kyma X projects can be imported into Kyma 7 but
> then cannot be opened any more in Kyma X).
>
> My take on Kyma 7, assuming my impressions from this review without
> hands-on experience are correct, is that Kyma is streets ahead of
> Csound and its environments when it comes to polish, user interface,
> availability of canned patches, and ability to _easily_ switch back
> and forth between the time domain and the frequency domain. Therefore,
> it would seem to be way ahead in terms of quickly getting a sound
> design or composition off the ground starting with pre-programmed
> patches and examples.
>
> I am also guessing that Csound is ahead of Kyma in terms of DSP
> capabilities and actual musical power, has the advantage of real MIDI
> support, and has external APIs. There is no mention of any external
> interface in the review or on the Symbolic Sound Web site.
>
> I don't have any clear idea how the actual sound processing speed of
> Kyma 7 would compare with Csound. Of course if Csound could run things
> on the GPU it would probably get considerably faster.
>
> Of course Kyma is not cheap, even the cheapest DSP engine is several
> thousand dollars.
>
> The recent addition of HTML and JavaScript integration to Csound
> provides one path towards a more polished and flexible user interface
> for Csound as well as the use of Web APIs for accessing central
> repositories of patches, samples, etc. I think we should think about
> this, as Steven Yi and others have already done, but in a more
> concerted way.
>
> Bottom line: I have no interest in turning Csound into a Kyma clone,
> but I do think there are things we can learn from here.
>
> Comments?
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel


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Just for my own edification; when you refer to 'HTML and JavaScript
integration', what do you mean? Is that running Csound in a
web-browser (which I know can be done already) or effectively having a
web browser in Csound? Is that the proposed solution to the problem of
cross-platform UI's?

Regards,
 Joel

On 30 September 2015 at 11:35, Peiman Khosravi  wrote:
> Thanks for bringing this up. I've always been interested in Kyma but
> could never afford it!
>
> Agostino Di Scipio uses Kyma for his ecosystemic feedback-based works.
> So it does definitively lend itself to electroacoustic music. Of course
> his signal flow could also be designed in Csound, pd, sc3 or Max.
>
> https://www.ak.tu-berlin.de/fileadmin/a0135/Unterrichtsmaterial/Di_Scipio/Sound_is_the_interface.PDF
>
> Best,
> P
>
> On 28/09/2015 13:31, Michael Gogins wrote:
>> The Fall 2015 issue of Computer Music Journal contains an extensive
>> review of Kyma 7 by Barton McLean. I think most Csound developers and
>> many Csound users should read this review, even though it reads like a
>> sales pitch for Kyma. Here I will briefly review McLean's review.
>> Barton and Priscilla McLean have a long history in electronic music.
>>
>> Kyma 7 is a new version of the Kyma synthesizer, which is a
>> programming language, derived from SmallTalk, that runs on a dedicated
>> hardware DSP engine. Kyma 7 has lost MIDI capabilities but has also
>> apparently gained many other features and a good deal of polish.
>>
>> What McLean likes most about Kyma 7 is that the goods are already
>> cooked. There apparently is a huge library of pre-programmed "Sounds"
>> with a great deal of search capability, ability to quickly preview
>> Sounds, context-sensitive help, and so on. Kyma appears to have most
>> of the unit generators that Csound has and also has some features that
>> Csound does not have (taking an instant time/frequency analysis of any
>> sample or Sound that becomes a new Sound that can then be treated like
>> any other Sound, for example). Another interesting and useful feature
>> is the ability compose a patch as what they call a MultiGrid and then
>> be able to view and presumably edit it is a signal flow graph, which
>> itself becomes a Sound, etc. This reminds me of the Buzz tracker.
>>
>> Many of the features that McLean describes are available either in
>> Csound, or in environments based on Csound, especially blue, which
>> obviously shares some concepts with Kyma (independent but simultaneous
>> Timelines for organizing Sounds, for example).
>>
>> My impression, from some considerable distance, is that most of the
>> people who actually use Kyma are "sound designers" for games and
>> movies. I would be interested to hear from other composers who use
>> Kyma for composing electroacoustc art music, either for fixed media as
>> McLean does, or for interactive performance.
>>
>> McLean complains that he used many synthesizers in the past and then
>> abandoned them when limits were hit or because backward compatibility
>> failed. These issues are, obviously, not a problem for Csound at all.
>> McLean never mentions Csound and I wonder if he knows much about it.
>> Of course Kyma also is proprietary and has backward compatibility
>> issues of its own (Kyma X projects can be imported into Kyma 7 but
>> then cannot be opened any more in Kyma X).
>>
>> My take on Kyma 7, assuming my impressions from this review without
>> hands-on experience are correct, is that Kyma is streets ahead of
>> Csound and its environments when it comes to polish, user interface,
>> availability of canned patches, and ability to _easily_ switch back
>> and forth between the time domain and the frequency domain. Therefore,
>> it would seem to be way ahead in terms of quickly getting a sound
>> design or composition off the ground starting with pre-programmed
>> patches and examples.
>>
>> I am also guessing that Csound is ahead of Kyma in terms of DSP
>> capabilities and actual musical power, has the advantage of real MIDI
>> support, and has external APIs. There is no mention of any external
>> interface in the review or on the Symbolic Sound Web site.
>>
>> I don't have any clear idea how the actual sound processing speed of
>> Kyma 7 would compare with Csound. Of course if Csound could run things
>> on the GPU it would probably get considerably faster.
>>
>> Of course Kyma is not cheap, even the cheapest DSP engine is several
>> thousand dollars.
>>
>> The recent addition of HTML and JavaScript integration to Csound
>> provides one path towards a more polished and flexible user interface
>> for Csound as well as the use of Web APIs for accessing central
>> repositories of patches, samples, etc. I think we should think about
>> this, as Steven Yi and others have already done, but in a more
>> concerted way.
>>
>> Bottom line: I have no interest in turning Csound into a Kyma clone,
>> but I do think there are things we can learn from here.
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://michaelgogins.tumblr.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-devel mailing list
>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
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> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
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