Dear list,

I would like to create a very precise model of popular Yamaha TX81Z bass
preset called Lately Bass. You could hear it in many songs of 90s techno-pop
scene. Fortunately, I own this synth and I can experiment with it at home.

So....the problems begin from the start. This is 4 operator synth, so I
decided to model Feedback FM first. I took a code from here
http://booki.flossmanuals.net/csound/d-frequency-modulation/ and made a one
knob synth in Cabbage. I planned to tweak the knob and find the exact level
of self-modulation corresponding to one used in the original preset.
To my greatest surprise I got the situation which is described by attached
pics.
The spectrum in Csound is very distorted comparing to TX81Z. Only if I set
ksmps to 1 I got a good result (see picture ksmps_1). Otherwise, even if
ksmps is set to 2 (see picture ksmps_2), the result is a peak on (obviously)
sr/2.
Concerning first picture the peaks are a bit detuned. I suggest that the
inner sampling rate of TX81Z is somewhere around 32 kHz. And again - as far
as I know the only sampling rate reduction possible is through downsamp.
Although it is not so important comparing with the worst issue discussed
above.


Do you have some ideas? I don't think it is a good idea to use ksmps = 1. 
On each picture TX81Z's spectrum is below.

Thank you!
 
 





-----
Gleb Rogozinsky, PhD
Associated Professor
Interactive Arts Department
Saint-Petersburg University of Film and Television

Deputy Director of Medialab
Saint-Petersburg University of Telecommunications
--
View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/ksmps-and-FM-feedback-question-tp5741754.html
Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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If you are using audio feedback you will need ksmps=1 (otherwise you 
would be placing an extra delay in the feedback line). You can have
local ksmps in UDOs and instruments using setksmps.
========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 21 May 2015, at 12:10, Gleb  wrote:
> 
> Dear list,
> 
> I would like to create a very precise model of popular Yamaha TX81Z bass
> preset called Lately Bass. You could hear it in many songs of 90s techno-pop
> scene. Fortunately, I own this synth and I can experiment with it at home.
> 
> So....the problems begin from the start. This is 4 operator synth, so I
> decided to model Feedback FM first. I took a code from here
> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/csound/d-frequency-modulation/ and made a one
> knob synth in Cabbage. I planned to tweak the knob and find the exact level
> of self-modulation corresponding to one used in the original preset.
> To my greatest surprise I got the situation which is described by attached
> pics.
> The spectrum in Csound is very distorted comparing to TX81Z. Only if I set
> ksmps to 1 I got a good result (see picture ksmps_1). Otherwise, even if
> ksmps is set to 2 (see picture ksmps_2), the result is a peak on (obviously)
> sr/2.
> Concerning first picture the peaks are a bit detuned. I suggest that the
> inner sampling rate of TX81Z is somewhere around 32 kHz. And again - as far
> as I know the only sampling rate reduction possible is through downsamp.
> Although it is not so important comparing with the worst issue discussed
> above.
> 
> 
> Do you have some ideas? I don't think it is a good idea to use ksmps = 1. 
> On each picture TX81Z's spectrum is below.
> 
> Thank you!
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> Gleb Rogozinsky, PhD
> Associated Professor
> Interactive Arts Department
> Saint-Petersburg University of Film and Television
> 
> Deputy Director of Medialab
> Saint-Petersburg University of Telecommunications
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/ksmps-and-FM-feedback-question-tp5741754.html
> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Thank you, dr Lazzarini!

In this case you might consider doing the feedback in a UDO so that
you can have a local ksmps. Might save some CPU for other tasks.

On 21 May 2015 at 17:49, Aaron Krister Johnson  wrote:
> Interesting side note: if you don't use a low ksmps (or more specifically,
> if you don't use ksmps=1), you'll also find you get an irritating "click"
> sound on the immediate attack portion mellow, close-to-sine type sounds
> (ones with a low index of modulation), especially the lower you descend into
> the bass range.
>
> I have a 3x3 matrix phase modulation synth that suffers from this when ksmps
> != 1....but then of course, the issue is CPU hunger. :) The solution would
> be to of course, lower the sample rate.
>
> Cheers,
> AKJ
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Gleb Rogozinsky 
> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you, dr Lazzarini!
>>
>> 21.05.2015 14:18 пользователь "Victor Lazzarini"
>>  написал:
>>
>>> If you are using audio feedback you will need ksmps=1 (otherwise you
>>> would be placing an extra delay in the feedback line). You can have
>>> local ksmps in UDOs and instruments using setksmps.
>>> ========================
>>> Dr Victor Lazzarini
>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
>>> Maynooth University,
>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>>
>>> > On 21 May 2015, at 12:10, Gleb  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Dear list,
>>> >
>>> > I would like to create a very precise model of popular Yamaha TX81Z
>>> > bass
>>> > preset called Lately Bass. You could hear it in many songs of 90s
>>> > techno-pop
>>> > scene. Fortunately, I own this synth and I can experiment with it at
>>> > home.
>>> >
>>> > So....the problems begin from the start. This is 4 operator synth, so I
>>> > decided to model Feedback FM first. I took a code from here
>>> > http://booki.flossmanuals.net/csound/d-frequency-modulation/ and made a
>>> > one
>>> > knob synth in Cabbage. I planned to tweak the knob and find the exact
>>> > level
>>> > of self-modulation corresponding to one used in the original preset.
>>> > To my greatest surprise I got the situation which is described by
>>> > attached
>>> > pics.
>>> > The spectrum in Csound is very distorted comparing to TX81Z. Only if I
>>> > set
>>> > ksmps to 1 I got a good result (see picture ksmps_1). Otherwise, even
>>> > if
>>> > ksmps is set to 2 (see picture ksmps_2), the result is a peak on
>>> > (obviously)
>>> > sr/2.
>>> > Concerning first picture the peaks are a bit detuned. I suggest that
>>> > the
>>> > inner sampling rate of TX81Z is somewhere around 32 kHz. And again - as
>>> > far
>>> > as I know the only sampling rate reduction possible is through
>>> > downsamp.
>>> > Although it is not so important comparing with the worst issue
>>> > discussed
>>> > above.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Do you have some ideas? I don't think it is a good idea to use ksmps =
>>> > 1.
>>> > On each picture TX81Z's spectrum is below.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you!
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----
>>> > Gleb Rogozinsky, PhD
>>> > Associated Professor
>>> > Interactive Arts Department
>>> > Saint-Petersburg University of Film and Television
>>> >
>>> > Deputy Director of Medialab
>>> > Saint-Petersburg University of Telecommunications
>>> > --
>>> > View this message in context:
>>> > http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/ksmps-and-FM-feedback-question-tp5741754.html
>>> > Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > One dashboard for servers and applications across
>>> > Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>>> > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>>> > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable
>>> > Insights
>>> > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>>> > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Csound-users mailing list
>>> > Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
>>> > Send bugs reports to
>>> >        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-users mailing list
>>> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
>> Csound-users mailing list
>> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
>> Send bugs reports to
>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
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> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yes. An excellent solution

Instruments can also do local ksmps. It depends on the design really.
========================
Dr Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952 

> On 21 May 2015, at 19:00, Rory Walsh  wrote:
> 
> In this case you might consider doing the feedback in a UDO so that
> you can have a local ksmps. Might save some CPU for other tasks.
> 
> On 21 May 2015 at 17:49, Aaron Krister Johnson  wrote:
>> Interesting side note: if you don't use a low ksmps (or more specifically,
>> if you don't use ksmps=1), you'll also find you get an irritating "click"
>> sound on the immediate attack portion mellow, close-to-sine type sounds
>> (ones with a low index of modulation), especially the lower you descend into
>> the bass range.
>> 
>> I have a 3x3 matrix phase modulation synth that suffers from this when ksmps
>> != 1....but then of course, the issue is CPU hunger. :) The solution would
>> be to of course, lower the sample rate.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> AKJ
>> 
>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>> http://www.untwelve.org
>> 
>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Gleb Rogozinsky 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you, dr Lazzarini!
>>> 
>>> 21.05.2015 14:18 пользователь "Victor Lazzarini"
>>>  написал:
>>> 
>>>> If you are using audio feedback you will need ksmps=1 (otherwise you
>>>> would be placing an extra delay in the feedback line). You can have
>>>> local ksmps in UDOs and instruments using setksmps.
>>>> ========================
>>>> Dr Victor Lazzarini
>>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies and Philosophy,
>>>> Maynooth University,
>>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>>> 
>>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 12:10, Gleb  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would like to create a very precise model of popular Yamaha TX81Z
>>>>> bass
>>>>> preset called Lately Bass. You could hear it in many songs of 90s
>>>>> techno-pop
>>>>> scene. Fortunately, I own this synth and I can experiment with it at
>>>>> home.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So....the problems begin from the start. This is 4 operator synth, so I
>>>>> decided to model Feedback FM first. I took a code from here
>>>>> http://booki.flossmanuals.net/csound/d-frequency-modulation/ and made a
>>>>> one
>>>>> knob synth in Cabbage. I planned to tweak the knob and find the exact
>>>>> level
>>>>> of self-modulation corresponding to one used in the original preset.
>>>>> To my greatest surprise I got the situation which is described by
>>>>> attached
>>>>> pics.
>>>>> The spectrum in Csound is very distorted comparing to TX81Z. Only if I
>>>>> set
>>>>> ksmps to 1 I got a good result (see picture ksmps_1). Otherwise, even
>>>>> if
>>>>> ksmps is set to 2 (see picture ksmps_2), the result is a peak on
>>>>> (obviously)
>>>>> sr/2.
>>>>> Concerning first picture the peaks are a bit detuned. I suggest that
>>>>> the
>>>>> inner sampling rate of TX81Z is somewhere around 32 kHz. And again - as
>>>>> far
>>>>> as I know the only sampling rate reduction possible is through
>>>>> downsamp.
>>>>> Although it is not so important comparing with the worst issue
>>>>> discussed
>>>>> above.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do you have some ideas? I don't think it is a good idea to use ksmps =
>>>>> 1.
>>>>> On each picture TX81Z's spectrum is below.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----
>>>>> Gleb Rogozinsky, PhD
>>>>> Associated Professor
>>>>> Interactive Arts Department
>>>>> Saint-Petersburg University of Film and Television
>>>>> 
>>>>> Deputy Director of Medialab
>>>>> Saint-Petersburg University of Telecommunications
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/ksmps-and-FM-feedback-question-tp5741754.html
>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> One dashboard for servers and applications across
>>>>> Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>>>>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>>>>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable
>>>>> Insights
>>>>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>>>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Csound-users mailing list
>>>>> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
>>>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>>>       https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>>>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>>>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>>>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Csound-users mailing list
>>>> Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users
>>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Send bugs reports to
>>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Send bugs reports to
>        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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David, thank you for a fresh idea. Gonna look it through..