On Wed, 6 May 2015, briandc wrote:
> the notes stack up on each other, and I start to get distortion coming from
> the speakers. It's as though the previous chord notes are not replaced when
> the same chord is played again, and the output "builds up." (I think that if
> there was a way to limit polyphony it would be resolved.) I've tried

I think you're right about the cause of the issue.  Csound in general is
capable of unlimited polyphony (though when you run out of CPU power it
may stop being capable of real-time rendering) and that's what most users
of Csound want.  If you play several new notes while other notes are
decaying, you *will* get them all playing at once.  The fact that many
hardware synths will cut off earlier notes is usually seen as a flaw, not
a positive feature, of such synths, and deliberately avoided in Csound.
But it's true that if many notes end up playing at once either because you
played them directly or because they were still in progress when you
played others, then the total volume of all notes playing at once may be
such as to cause clipping and distortion.

Changing ksmps or buffer sizes is unlikely to have much effect because the
real issue is volume, not timing.

If you want to simulate the way a hardware synth with a hard limit on
polyphony would work (forcing off old notes as new notes come in), you can
probably do it using the turnoff opcode and some logic in each new note to
turn off previous notes when there are several playing.  This may become
quite complicated if you want the limit to be more than one note without
being unlimited.  One reason it'll be tricky is that you will have to
decide exactly what priority scheme you want to use for choosing which
earlier notes to kill, and then figure out how to make Csound keep track
of that scheme.

Possibly a simpler thing to do would be to expand your audio range so that
you really can play many notes at once without them overloading the
output.  Just reducing the volume on everything would help.  Implementing
a compressor or limiter as an always-on instrument and passing everything
through that will allow you to at least choose the shape of the distortion
when it overloads, although it's inevitable that a sufficiently large
number of simultaneous notes *will* eventually cause it to overload.
Properly done compression should sound a lot better than hard clipping.

Some very simple limiting code of mine is in
   https://github.com/mskala/csounds/blob/master/piano.csd
(instrument 1000 in particular); it may require some changes to work with
your own stuff.  This limiter is not the cleanest-sounding one possible,
just one that was easy to implement.

Hello Matthew,
thank you for your response. I hadn't considered the limiter/compressor
solution, although I'd like to leave that as a last resort.
Reducing the volume might also work, I'll try it and see what results I get.

The unlimited polyphony concept is one that I like. It's nice to be able to
play long-release notes along the whole range of the keyboard without
previous notes getting cut off.  And in fact, I don't get distortion when I
do this.

The distortion comes when I play the same notes repeatedly.  Now, on most
instruments, if you play the same note over and over, the most recent one
will cancel out the earlier one.
But on Csound I think this is not happening. The release of the note (if
medium-to-long) does not get cancelled out by the new note (same note).  And
so, the more you play the same note, the more note releases get piled up,
resulting in distortion.


brian



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Hello Brian,

You could also attach your csd, so people could review your code

This is something I've been pondering at times as well, to some degree.

Basically, csound can keep track of running instruments and be setup to turn off e.g. the oldest running instance if more that ten instances are attempted. But in this case the wish is to keep track of what frequency the instance of an instrument is playing, or at least what frequency it was started with. That seems to me to be much more complex. 

However, I suppose if using a midi keyboard it should be possible to keep track of the midi key pressed and the release time of the triggered instrument, and if at the time of key press a previous press of the same key was still within (a suitable fraction of) the release time limit, the new press would replace the running note. Maybe the recent updates of csound inner workings to allow for live coding etc. also allows for the running note to just be updated with new attack and velocity numbers? Or can the tied note functionality be adopted?

Regards,
Anders 





> 6 maj 2015 kl. 11:13 skrev briandc :
> 
> Hello Matthew,
> thank you for your response. I hadn't considered the limiter/compressor
> solution, although I'd like to leave that as a last resort.
> Reducing the volume might also work, I'll try it and see what results I get.
> 
> The unlimited polyphony concept is one that I like. It's nice to be able to
> play long-release notes along the whole range of the keyboard without
> previous notes getting cut off.  And in fact, I don't get distortion when I
> do this.
> 
> The distortion comes when I play the same notes repeatedly.  Now, on most
> instruments, if you play the same note over and over, the most recent one
> will cancel out the earlier one.
> But on Csound I think this is not happening. The release of the note (if
> medium-to-long) does not get cancelled out by the new note (same note).  And
> so, the more you play the same note, the more note releases get piled up,
> resulting in distortion.
> 
> 
> brian
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Unwanted-Csound-distortion-tp5741383p5741385.html
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> 
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I usually have done this by letting the midi input trigger an event
handler instrument, starting events on the sound producing instrument.
In the event handler, the instr instance knows what midi note started
it (say note num 60), then when I start the sound generating instr, I
use a fractional instr number, in this case for example

isoundgenerator = 2
ifrac = inotenum*0.001
instrNum = isoundgenerator+ifrac
event_i "i", instrNum, 0, -1, ... (indefinite duration)

then to turn off:

xtratim 1/kr
krelease release
if krelease > 0 then
event "i", -instrNum, 0, 0.1, ... (negative fractional instr number,
turns off the appropriate instance)
endif

The sound generator instr will have to have envelope generators that
pick up from the current value to avoid clicks when retriggering
before the release stage of the envelope has finished.
This is a little more complex, but basically you write the envelope
value to a chn channel or a global var, then read this value as the
envelope starting value (so the envelope of a new instrument will
start at the value reached by the release stage of the previous
instance).


2015-05-06 11:38 GMT+02:00 Anders Genell :
> This is something I've been pondering at times as well, to some degree.
>
> Basically, csound can keep track of running instruments and be setup to turn off e.g. the oldest running instance if more that ten instances are attempted. But in this case the wish is to keep track of what frequency the instance of an instrument is playing, or at least what frequency it was started with. That seems to me to be much more complex.
>
> However, I suppose if using a midi keyboard it should be possible to keep track of the midi key pressed and the release time of the triggered instrument, and if at the time of key press a previous press of the same key was still within (a suitable fraction of) the release time limit, the new press would replace the running note. Maybe the recent updates of csound inner workings to allow for live coding etc. also allows for the running note to just be updated with new attack and velocity numbers? Or can the tied note functionality be adopted?
>
> Regards,
> Anders
>
>
>
>
>
>> 6 maj 2015 kl. 11:13 skrev briandc :
>>
>> Hello Matthew,
>> thank you for your response. I hadn't considered the limiter/compressor
>> solution, although I'd like to leave that as a last resort.
>> Reducing the volume might also work, I'll try it and see what results I get.
>>
>> The unlimited polyphony concept is one that I like. It's nice to be able to
>> play long-release notes along the whole range of the keyboard without
>> previous notes getting cut off.  And in fact, I don't get distortion when I
>> do this.
>>
>> The distortion comes when I play the same notes repeatedly.  Now, on most
>> instruments, if you play the same note over and over, the most recent one
>> will cancel out the earlier one.
>> But on Csound I think this is not happening. The release of the note (if
>> medium-to-long) does not get cancelled out by the new note (same note).  And
>> so, the more you play the same note, the more note releases get piled up,
>> resulting in distortion.
>>
>>
>> brian
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Unwanted-Csound-distortion-tp5741383p5741385.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
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On Wed, 6 May 2015, Anders Genell wrote:
> Basically, csound can keep track of running instruments and be setup to
> turn off e.g. the oldest running instance if more that ten instances are
> attempted. But in this case the wish is to keep track of what frequency
> the instance of an instrument is playing, or at least what frequency it
> was started with. That seems to me to be much more complex.

Probably doable with fractional instrument numbers.  I started to write an
email suggesting how to do it with one instrument that spins off instances
of another with fractional numbers corresponding to the pitch; I then
noticed that turnoff2 runs at k-rate, and I'm not sure what the
consequences of that are, so I didn't want to suggest it to a newbie
without testing it myself.  But it seems like it could probably be made
to work.

Before I can upload an instrument, I need to get it running correctly with
realtime midi.. something I'm not able to do with Csound. Here's the output:



What a mess.
Can someone help me get my midi controller connected?
Then we can take a specific instrument and address the distortion..

brian


brian



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Yes, I tried -Ma and -MA.  Nothing connects. I get an error message that
"device is busy."
When I used qutecsound previously, midi instruments were selectable using
Portmidi rather than alsamidi.  So, I even tried "-+rtmidi=portmidi" and I
still get an error.

Also, as my midi controllers all result as a single number (ie. "3" rather
than "3,0" or "4" rather than "4,0") I always get errors.



brian



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I'm uploading an audio file (ogg format) of Oscillator Bank Synth, with the
distortion.


brian

OscBnkSynthDistortion.ogg
  



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That is not clipping and is nowhere near 0dbfs.  OTOH my ears are not good 
enough to hear any distortion.  I would like to see the csound output 
though
==John

On Wed, 6 May 2015, briandc wrote:

> I'm uploading an audio file (ogg format) of Oscillator Bank Synth, with the
> distortion.
>
>
> brian
>
> OscBnkSynthDistortion.ogg
> 
>
>

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if you use csoundqt, go to Configure > Run > Realtime MIDI, and try to 
select your keyboard as "MIDI input interface".  do *not* use anything 
in the CsOptions tag then.
if this fails (how?),  you can check the "Use Csound MIDI Modules". 
also in this case, you need not to use anything in the . 
this is only necessary, if you use csound from the command line.
best -
	joachim

Am 06.05.2015 um 15:55 schrieb briandc:
> Yes, I tried -Ma and -MA.  Nothing connects. I get an error message that
> "device is busy."
> When I used qutecsound previously, midi instruments were selectable using
> Portmidi rather than alsamidi.  So, I even tried "-+rtmidi=portmidi" and I
> still get an error.
>
> Also, as my midi controllers all result as a single number (ie. "3" rather
> than "3,0" or "4" rather than "4,0") I always get errors.
>
>
>
> brian
>
>
>
> --
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>
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I would love to use CsoundQT. I have almost installed version 0.8.3. Now I get an error during qmake that says it can't find the API directory.  I don't know which directory this is, otherwise it would finish the installation (I think).

Otherwise, I heard there is version 0.9 available, but I don't know where to get it.

brian

On Wed, 06 May 2015 17:48:52 +0200, joachim heintz wrote:

if you use csoundqt, go to Configure > Run > Realtime MIDI, and try to 
select your keyboard as "MIDI input interface".  do *not* use anything 
in the CsOptions tag then.
if this fails (how?),  you can check the "Use Csound MIDI Modules". 
also in this case, you need not to use anything in the. 
this is only necessary, if you use csound from the command line.
best -
	joachim

Am 06.05.2015 um 15:55 schrieb briandc:

Yes, I tried -Ma and -MA. Nothing connects. I get an error message that "device is busy." When I used qutecsound previously, midi instruments were selectable using Portmidi rather than alsamidi. So, I even tried "-+rtmidi=portmidi" and I still get an error. Also, as my midi controllers all result as a single number (ie. "3" rather than "3,0" or "4" rather than "4,0") I always get errors. brian -- View this message in context: http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Unwanted-Csound-distortion-tp5741383p5741396.html Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Csound-users mailing list Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-users Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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which platform are you using?


Am 06.05.2015 um 17:55 schrieb brian@amsynth.com:
> I would love to use CsoundQT. I have almost installed version 0.8.3. Now
> I get an error during qmake that says it can't find the API directory.
> I don't know which directory this is, otherwise it would finish the
> installation (I think).
>
> Otherwise, I heard there is version 0.9 available, but I don't know
> where to get it.
>
> brian
>
> On Wed, 06 May 2015 17:48:52 +0200, joachim heintz wrote:
>
>> if you use csoundqt, go to Configure > Run > Realtime MIDI, and try to
>> select your keyboard as "MIDI input interface".  do *not* use anything
>> in the CsOptions tag then.
>> if this fails (how?),  you can check the "Use Csound MIDI Modules".
>> also in this case, you need not to use anything in the.
>> this is only necessary, if you use csound from the command line.
>> best -
>> 	joachim
>>
>> Am 06.05.2015 um 15:55 schrieb briandc:
>>> Yes, I tried -Ma and -MA. Nothing connects. I get an error message
>>> that "device is busy." When I used qutecsound previously, midi
>>> instruments were selectable using Portmidi rather than alsamidi. So,
>>> I even tried "-+rtmidi=portmidi" and I still get an error. Also, as
>>> my midi controllers all result as a single number (ie. "3" rather
>>> than "3,0" or "4" rather than "4,0") I always get errors. brian --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Unwanted-Csound-distortion-tp5741383p5741396.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you
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>>> _______________________________________________ Csound-users mailing
>>> list Csound-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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>
>
>
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Linux, debian-based: Ubuntu Studio 12.04 with KXStudio repos, 32-bit

On Wed, 6 May 2015 09:58:16 -0700 (MST), joachim-3 [via Csound] wrote:

which platform are you using?


Am 06.05.2015 um 17:55 schrieb [hidden email]:

> I would love to use CsoundQT. I have almost installed version 0.8.3. Now
> I get an error during qmake that says it can't find the API directory.
> I don't know which directory this is, otherwise it would finish the
> installation (I think).
>
> Otherwise, I heard there is version 0.9 available, but I don't know
> where to get it.
>
> brian
>
> On Wed, 06 May 2015 17:48:52 +0200, joachim heintz wrote:
>
>> if you use csoundqt, go to Configure > Run > Realtime MIDI, and try to
>> select your keyboard as "MIDI input interface".  do *not* use anything
>> in the CsOptions tag then.
>> if this fails (how?),  you can check the "Use Csound MIDI Modules".
>> also in this case, you need not to use anything in the.
>> this is only necessary, if you use csound from the command line.
>> best -
>> joachim
>>
>> Am 06.05.2015 um 15:55 schrieb briandc:
>>> Yes, I tried -Ma and -MA. Nothing connects. I get an error message
>>> that "device is busy." When I used qutecsound previously, midi
>>> instruments were selectable using Portmidi rather than alsamidi. So,
>>> I even tried "-+rtmidi=portmidi" and I still get an error. Also, as
>>> my midi controllers all result as a single number (ie. "3" rather
>>> than "3,0" or "4" rather than "4,0") I always get errors. brian --
>>> View this message in context:
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have a look at these descriptions:
http://qutecsound.sourceforge.net/pages/develop.html
https://github.com/csound/csound/wiki/CsoundQt-with-Csound6-on-Debian-Ubuntu:-a-build-guide

and let us know any problems.  all best -
	joachim


Am 06.05.2015 um 19:02 schrieb briandc:
> Linux, debian-based: Ubuntu Studio 12.04 with KXStudio repos, 32-bit
>
> On Wed, 6 May 2015 09:58:16 -0700 (MST), joachim-3 [via Csound] wrote:
>
>> which platform are you using?
>>
>>
>> Am 06.05.2015 um 17:55 schrieb [hidden email]:
>>
>>
>> > I would love to use CsoundQT. I have almost installed version 0.8.3.
>> Now
>> > I get an error during qmake that says it can't find the API directory.
>> > I don't know which directory this is, otherwise it would finish the
>> > installation (I think).
>> >
>> > Otherwise, I heard there is version 0.9 available, but I don't know
>> > where to get it.
>> >
>> > brian
>> >
>> > On Wed, 06 May 2015 17:48:52 +0200, joachim heintz wrote:
>> >
>> >> if you use csoundqt, go to Configure > Run > Realtime MIDI, and try to
>> >> select your keyboard as "MIDI input interface".  do *not* use anything
>> >> in the CsOptions tag then.
>> >> if this fails (how?),  you can check the "Use Csound MIDI Modules".
>> >> also in this case, you need not to use anything in the.
>> >> this is only necessary, if you use csound from the command line.
>> >> best -
>> >> joachim
>> >>
>> >> Am 06.05.2015 um 15:55 schrieb briandc:
>> >>> Yes, I tried -Ma and -MA. Nothing connects. I get an error message
>> >>> that "device is busy." When I used qutecsound previously, midi
>> >>> instruments were selectable using Portmidi rather than alsamidi. So,
>> >>> I even tried "-+rtmidi=portmidi" and I still get an error. Also, as
>> >>> my midi controllers all result as a single number (ie. "3" rather
>> >>> than "3,0" or "4" rather than "4,0") I always get errors. brian --
>> >>> View this message in context:
>> >>>
>> http://csound.1045644.n5.nabble.com/Unwanted-Csound-distortion-tp5741383p5741396.html
>> >>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> >>> One dashboard for servers and applications across
>> >>> Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with
>> >>> 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you
>> >>> Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing
>> >>> using APM Insight.
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>> >>> _______________________________________________ Csound-users mailing
>> >>> list [hidden email]
>> >>> [hidden email]>
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>> >>> bugs and features can be posted here
>> >>
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>> >> One dashboard for servers and applications across
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>> >> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> >> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable
>> Insights
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
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>> >
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Update!  The midi controller issue has been resolved. It was the a2jmidid
script I had had set in QJackCtl that was "occupying" the midi channels,
even with no instruments running.  So I deactivated the script and voilà!
Now I've got full midi control with just the "-Ma" option! :)

So, back to the main issue of audio garbling. 
As far as I can tell, there needs to be a way for previous notes to be
"cancelled" so that they don't pile up. 

In fact, the distortion happens when playing a simple chord (C-E-G) over and
over fast. Unless the release time is very fast (ie. hitting a drum), the
previous notes' release signals don't get cancelled and they accumulate,
resulting in distortion.



brian



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