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Re: [Cs-dev] [Csnd] bformdec 8-ring

Date2007-07-12 22:43
FromVictor Lazzarini
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] [Csnd] bformdec 8-ring
> I observe two issues:
> 1) Your zero-degree point is 90 degrees to the listener's
> right. The documentation implies that zero is immediately
> in front of the listener (this is also intuitive).
> 2) The documentation implies clockwise movement (as
> degrees increase), not counterclockwise movement. This
> clockwise movement implies channel/speaker numbers
> increasing with clockwise movement.

That's right, the documentation is problematic. 0 degrees
is right (east), 90 is front (north), 180 left (west) and
270 back (south). This is not so counter-intuitive, as it
just a trigonometric circle.

>
> Would you agree that your speaker setup, reinterpreted in
> light of the above, is the equivalent of the following
> stereo pairs (front to back) - rotated 90 degrees
> counterclockwise (to put zero straight ahead) and with
> numbering reversed (so as to rotate clockwise): (8,1)
> (7,2) (6,3) (5,4) or outc a8, a1, a7, a2, a6, a3, a5, a4
> (with respect to bformdec outputs)

I am not sure I follow it. The speaker setup is as I gave
in my e-mail and that is what should be figured in the
manual page. Angles are not clockwise. It's just easy
to apply the numbering I gave. The numbering I gave is
for stereo pairs (L, R) front to back. The one you listed
does not work. Front is  3,2 (not 8,1) etc.; so you will
have:

a1,a2,a3,a4,a5,a6,a7,a8  bformdec  ...
outq a3,a2,a4,a1,a5,a8,a6,a7

if you have the following speaker/channels from the
front:
             1               2
 3                                      4

 5                                      6

            7                 8


>
> Furthermore, I assume that applying all the same reasoning
> to quad, but with the usual quad numbering (channels) for
> outq (LF = 1, LR = 2, etc.): outq a4, a3, a1, a2
> (With this setup, quad ambisonics seems to work for me.)

I have not tested quad, so I can't tell. I suggest it would
be RF,LF,LB,RB (counterclockwise starting from RF).

>
> Somehow, I should think we need to get csound's ambisonic
> audio output into a format that is readily understandable
> by all. To my mind, the out statement is the place to do
> this.

I hope this is clearer.

>
> Art Hunkins
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Lazzarini" 
> To: "Developer discussions"
> ;
> ; "Art Hunkins"
>  Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] [Cs-dev] bformdec 8-ring
>
>
> > Ok, we'll leave the angles out. Say your speaker
> > set up for a ring is:
> >
> > 1. mid front right
> > 2. front right
> > 3. front left
> > 4. mid front left
> > 5. mid back left
> > 6. back left
> > 7. back right
> > 8. mid back right
> >
> > Then you can plugin bformat outs 1-8 straight into 1-8.
> >
> > If you are working pair-wise L-R from the front, then
> > your pairs will be bformat outputs (3,2) (4,1) (5,8) and
> > (6,7).
> >
> > I hope this clears it up.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I am very confused, and it may well be at least partly
> > > on the conceptual level.
> > >
> > > I'm trying to understand the bformdec documentation.
> > > It describes speaker placement, for quad, as starting
> > > at right front and running clockwise to left front. It
> > > also references degrees (on a unit circle), with
> > > straight ahead being zero degrees and degrees moving
> > > clockwise through 360. I think I understand this so
> > > far. (No reference is made to angles; since I am
> > > math-challenged, I would like to leave them out of the
> > discussion.) >
> > > If one is dealing with quad output from bformdec:
> > > a1, a2, a3, a4 bformdec
> > >
> > > the output options seem to be:
> > > 1) outq a1, a2, a3, a4
> > > requiring verbal explanation of what this actually
> > > means in terms of speaker placement (as in "channel 1
> > > is RF, channel 2 is RR" etc.; or
> > >
> > > 2) outq a4, a3, a1, a2
> > > reinterpreting bformdec's output in terms of normal
> > > quad speaker/channel terminology - which (if I
> > > understand correctly) is LF = 1, LR = 2, RF = 3, RR =
> > 4. >
> > > I've less idea what such a reinterpretation might be
> > > for 8-channel circular mode. I've made the assumption
> > > (which certainly needs explanation to the "user") that
> > > the (normal?) counting of channels procedes in stereo
> > > pairs from front to rear. Assuming this, the output
> > > line would read: 2) outo a8, a1, a7, a2, a6, a3, a5,
> > a4 >
> > > I'd much appreciate being shown the error of my
> > > assumptions and thinking. There's either something
> > > wrong with my thinking, or with bformdoc, because - as
> > > I mentioned before - I'm not getting expected results
> > > with either quad or 8-channel bformdec. Using my test
> > > file, there is no speaker arrangement in which get a
> > > clear circular movement through 360 degrees. The
> > > placement is simply wrong, particularly in the range
> > > from 90 - 270 degrees. (I'm depending principally on
> > > strong aural and visual LED evidence in a quad
> > setting.) >
> > > Victor is happy; I'm not.
> > >
> > > And I'd still like to try out john ff's proposed
> > > bformdec, if there's any way to do so.
> > >
> > > Art Hunkins
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Victor Lazzarini" 
> > > To: "Developer discussions"
> > >  Sent: Thursday,
> > > July 12, 2007 10:10 AM Subject: [Cs-dev] bformdec
> > 8-ring >
> > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > I just ran the bformdec using the 8-ring setup in
> > > > the studio and as I said before here it works as
> > > > expected. The speaker positions are as follows:
> > > >
> > > > bformdec out                    speaker pos
> > > > (degrees) 1                               22.5
> > > > 2                       67.5
> > > > 3                       112.5
> > > > 4                       157.5
> > > > 5                       202.5
> > > > 6                       247.5
> > > > 7                       292.5
> > > > 8                       337.5
> > > >
> > > > Angles are measured counterclockwise from the right,
> > > > so right -> 0, front ->90,  left ->180 and back 270.
> > > >
> > > > Victor
> > > > Victor Lazzarini
> > > > Music Technology Laboratory
> > > > Music Department
> > > > National University of Ireland, Maynooth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
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Date2007-07-13 03:25
FromDavid Worrall
SubjectRe: [Cs-dev] [Csnd] bformdec 8-ring
Art,
It's good you're critically appraising the setup. Especially as most  
ambisonics setups use more than 4 speakers. Victor's spatial  
description is spot on (of course!).

The format of the audio output not only has to be easily understood,  
but it has to conform to a convention used by the ambisonists for  
decades now. It would, IMO,  not serve csound well if it broke with  
that convention.

So, whilst it is good to check that the documentation accurately  
describes the opcodes and that they are right, all hell would break  
loose if a renaming was undertaken.

David
...
>>
>> Somehow, I should think we need to get csound's ambisonic
>> audio output into a format that is readily understandable
>> by all. To my mind, the out statement is the place to do
>> this.
>>
>> Art Hunkins

..._________________________________________________
experimental polymedia:	www.avatar.com.au
Sonic Communications Research Group,
University of Canberra:	 creative.canberra.edu.au/scrg



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