Hi, Mike,

I'll certainly give it a shot. Others can add.

I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a Csound
orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of Winsound.

Other than the open files fields (with search) and output field, plus a
Render button (and Stop, and maybe Exit), probably only a place to set flags
particularly required on your system.

I don't see the need for other Options, nor Utilities, nor Environment
variable settings - no Editors, no extensive Help files. Not even a StdOut
screen. (This is *not* for debugging.) I'd assume that anyone using this
player already has csound correctly set up on his/her system. This is just a
simple means of performance or making a .wav file. I rather like the various
output format items and other render flags hidden in a menu item/checkboxes
somewhere. An  uncluttered look.

One very practical request I have: make the window small enough to
comfortably fit on my VGA screen (640x480). Yes, that's what I use; I have a
difficult time reading higher resolutions, and value my eyesight.

There you have it.

I suppose the *real* issue is: how do you handle FLTK? (At this point, my
response to this question might well be: don't - it complicates things too
much. Leave more full-bodied systems to handle the graphics. But I'm open on
this.)

Oh, and yes, hopefully, for real-time render, sensekey will work. Maybe that
would be possible without a StdOut screen.

Art Hunkins

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Gogins" 
To: "Art Hunkins" ; "Developer discussions"

Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Building on x86_64


> Provide a concise but complete set of requirements for a "simple GUI" and
I
> will see if I think it is easy enough to adapt or make one.
>
> You could draw screen shots with buttons and menus if that is clearer than
a
> text description.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Art Hunkins" 
> To: "Developer discussions" 
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 5:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Building on x86_64
>
>
> > Although I'm very happy with the Lettuce environment, I feel strongly
that
> > some alternate, *simple* Windows front end should be available and
> > maintained. Are there other candidates beside Csound5GUI and Winsound?
> >
> > IMHO, both of the above are worthy software; both (as noted) have a
couple
> > of weak spots. Surely, an interested developer could eliminate the
latter.
> >
> > *Perhaps* the fact that Istvan is no longer a developer (at least here)
> > rules out Csound5GUI - though I've yet to be completely convinced of
this.
> > Let me simply repeat that it is my fond hope that *at least one* of
these
> > fine programs will thrive and grow - appropriately nourished.
> >
> > Art Hunkins
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "jpff" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 4:33 PM
> > Subject: [Cs-dev] Building on x86_64
> >
> >
> >> I finally managed to build most stuff on the machine; I had to
> >> compiler swig 1.3.31 from source and install and that seemed to fix a
> >> number of issues.  If we really need the latest cutting edge SWIG it
> >> really ought to be tested for.
> >>
> >> I still have the lack of declaration of numBuffersInput in
> >> frontends/fltk_gui but I suspect that is a side effect of fltk1.1.7
> >> not building on x86_64; again that needs to be tested for if we require
> >> the latest version.
> >>
> >> Yes I know I am being grumpy(*) but i have wasted hours on this.
> >>
> >> My questions about 0.0/0.0 was really curiosity.  I could not find a
> >> definition of the functions P() etc and in C I would expect an
> >> interrupt.
> >>
> >> Next issue; do we really need an opcode to call out?  (I dislike the
> >> name shell as it comes from one subculture and its meaning is not
> >> obvious; at least system is a C function call and it does wait btw).
> >>
> >> What is the future of the various GUI systems?  I stopped developing
> >> winsound as it was clearly being rubbished.  So who is maintaining
> >> fltk_gui?
> >>
> >> ==John ffitch
> >> (*) and I am not feeling well today
> >>
>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
>
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Didn't David write a simple fltk editor once, with syntax highlighting 
and all that? Is there a binary file available so users don't have to 
compile it if they want to work with it? Might be a solution, it's 
lightweight and cross platform?

Art Hunkins wrote:
> Hi, Mike,
> 
> I'll certainly give it a shot. Others can add.
> 
> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a Csound
> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of Winsound.
> 
> Other than the open files fields (with search) and output field, plus a
> Render button (and Stop, and maybe Exit), probably only a place to set flags
> particularly required on your system.
> 
> I don't see the need for other Options, nor Utilities, nor Environment
> variable settings - no Editors, no extensive Help files. Not even a StdOut
> screen. (This is *not* for debugging.) I'd assume that anyone using this
> player already has csound correctly set up on his/her system. This is just a
> simple means of performance or making a .wav file. I rather like the various
> output format items and other render flags hidden in a menu item/checkboxes
> somewhere. An  uncluttered look.
> 
> One very practical request I have: make the window small enough to
> comfortably fit on my VGA screen (640x480). Yes, that's what I use; I have a
> difficult time reading higher resolutions, and value my eyesight.
> 
> There you have it.
> 
> I suppose the *real* issue is: how do you handle FLTK? (At this point, my
> response to this question might well be: don't - it complicates things too
> much. Leave more full-bodied systems to handle the graphics. But I'm open on
> this.)
> 
> Oh, and yes, hopefully, for real-time render, sensekey will work. Maybe that
> would be possible without a StdOut screen.
> 
> Art Hunkins
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Gogins" 
> To: "Art Hunkins" ; "Developer discussions"
> 
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Building on x86_64
> 
> 
>> Provide a concise but complete set of requirements for a "simple GUI" and
> I
>> will see if I think it is easy enough to adapt or make one.
>>
>> You could draw screen shots with buttons and menus if that is clearer than
> a
>> text description.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Art Hunkins" 
>> To: "Developer discussions" 
>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 5:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Building on x86_64
>>
>>
>>> Although I'm very happy with the Lettuce environment, I feel strongly
> that
>>> some alternate, *simple* Windows front end should be available and
>>> maintained. Are there other candidates beside Csound5GUI and Winsound?
>>>
>>> IMHO, both of the above are worthy software; both (as noted) have a
> couple
>>> of weak spots. Surely, an interested developer could eliminate the
> latter.
>>> *Perhaps* the fact that Istvan is no longer a developer (at least here)
>>> rules out Csound5GUI - though I've yet to be completely convinced of
> this.
>>> Let me simply repeat that it is my fond hope that *at least one* of
> these
>>> fine programs will thrive and grow - appropriately nourished.
>>>
>>> Art Hunkins
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "jpff" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 4:33 PM
>>> Subject: [Cs-dev] Building on x86_64
>>>
>>>
>>>> I finally managed to build most stuff on the machine; I had to
>>>> compiler swig 1.3.31 from source and install and that seemed to fix a
>>>> number of issues.  If we really need the latest cutting edge SWIG it
>>>> really ought to be tested for.
>>>>
>>>> I still have the lack of declaration of numBuffersInput in
>>>> frontends/fltk_gui but I suspect that is a side effect of fltk1.1.7
>>>> not building on x86_64; again that needs to be tested for if we require
>>>> the latest version.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I know I am being grumpy(*) but i have wasted hours on this.
>>>>
>>>> My questions about 0.0/0.0 was really curiosity.  I could not find a
>>>> definition of the functions P() etc and in C I would expect an
>>>> interrupt.
>>>>
>>>> Next issue; do we really need an opcode to call out?  (I dislike the
>>>> name shell as it comes from one subculture and its meaning is not
>>>> obvious; at least system is a C function call and it does wait btw).
>>>>
>>>> What is the future of the various GUI systems?  I stopped developing
>>>> winsound as it was clearly being rubbished.  So who is maintaining
>>>> fltk_gui?
>>>>
>>>> ==John ffitch
>>>> (*) and I am not feeling well today
>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
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>>> your
>>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
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>>>
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> 
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Hi,
I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross-platform
front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like the
versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound might also
be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files without
any hassle.


Art Hunkins wrote:
> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a Csound
> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of Winsound.
>
>   
This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I think
it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called CSDPlayer,
written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.

> I don't see the need for other Options, nor Utilities, nor Environment
> variable settings - no Editors, no extensive Help files. Not even a StdOut
> screen. (This is *not* for debugging.) I'd assume that anyone using this
> player already has csound correctly set up on his/her system. This is just a
> simple means of performance or making a .wav file. I rather like the various
> output format items and other render flags hidden in a menu item/checkboxes
> somewhere. An  uncluttered look.
>   
I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's too much
hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back and
forth between editor and front end.

Cheers,
Andrés


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I agree.

Csound5GUI isn't that bad, but I would be happy
for John ffitch  to finish his cross-platform WinSound front-end
and then maintain it.  (In the past, the only problem with WinSound
was that this embedded version of Csound did not support real-time
MIDI - I think wish Csound5 under the hood, the WinSound front-end
would support all of Csound5 - right?  So.....

John.....  please bring back a cross-platform WinSound and maybe
rename this front-end to something else that won't confuse.  And....
if possible, including a text editor would be cool...  It is very  
important for beginners.
The least they have to hunt for to get working with the program the  
better.

-dB

On Jan 9, 2007, at 8:24 AM, Andres Cabrera wrote:

> Hi,
> I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross-platform
> front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like the
> versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound might  
> also
> be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
> student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files  
> without
> any hassle.
>
>
> Art Hunkins wrote:
>> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a  
>> Csound
>> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of  
>> Winsound.
>>
>>
> This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I think
> it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called  
> CSDPlayer,
> written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.
>
>> I don't see the need for other Options, nor Utilities, nor  
>> Environment
>> variable settings - no Editors, no extensive Help files. Not even  
>> a StdOut
>> screen. (This is *not* for debugging.) I'd assume that anyone  
>> using this
>> player already has csound correctly set up on his/her system. This  
>> is just a
>> simple means of performance or making a .wav file. I rather like  
>> the various
>> output format items and other render flags hidden in a menu item/ 
>> checkboxes
>> somewhere. An  uncluttered look.
>>
> I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's too  
> much
> hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back and
> forth between editor and front end.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrés
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
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> share your
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel


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What about David Akbari's editor? That might be the best shot at a
default frontend.

At 14:43 09/01/2007, you wrote:
>I agree.
>
>Csound5GUI isn't that bad, but I would be happy
>for John ffitch  to finish his cross-platform WinSound front-end
>and then maintain it.  (In the past, the only problem with WinSound
>was that this embedded version of Csound did not support real-time
>MIDI - I think wish Csound5 under the hood, the WinSound front-end
>would support all of Csound5 - right?  So.....
>
>John.....  please bring back a cross-platform WinSound and maybe
>rename this front-end to something else that won't confuse.  And....
>if possible, including a text editor would be cool...  It is very
>important for beginners.
>The least they have to hunt for to get working with the program the
>better.
>
>-dB
>
>On Jan 9, 2007, at 8:24 AM, Andres Cabrera wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross-platform
> > front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like the
> > versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound might
> > also
> > be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
> > student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files
> > without
> > any hassle.
> >
> >
> > Art Hunkins wrote:
> >> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a
> >> Csound
> >> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of
> >> Winsound.
> >>
> >>
> > This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I think
> > it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called
> > CSDPlayer,
> > written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.
> >
> >> I don't see the need for other Options, nor Utilities, nor
> >> Environment
> >> variable settings - no Editors, no extensive Help files. Not even
> >> a StdOut
> >> screen. (This is *not* for debugging.) I'd assume that anyone
> >> using this
> >> player already has csound correctly set up on his/her system. This
> >> is just a
> >> simple means of performance or making a .wav file. I rather like
> >> the various
> >> output format items and other render flags hidden in a menu item/
> >> checkboxes
> >> somewhere. An  uncluttered look.
> >>
> > I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's too
> > much
> > hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back and
> > forth between editor and front end.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andrés
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---
> > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
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Victor Lazzarini
Music Technology Laboratory
Music Department
National University of Ireland, Maynooth 


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I agree, it lightweight, easy to maintain and could be easily be 
developed in a simple all-in-one editor frontend, and the best of all is 
it's cross platform. I think Michael said he will include a built 
version in the next windows release.

Rory.


Victor Lazzarini wrote:
> What about David Akbari's editor? That might be the best shot at a
> default frontend.
> 
> At 14:43 09/01/2007, you wrote:
>> I agree.
>>
>> Csound5GUI isn't that bad, but I would be happy
>> for John ffitch  to finish his cross-platform WinSound front-end
>> and then maintain it.  (In the past, the only problem with WinSound
>> was that this embedded version of Csound did not support real-time
>> MIDI - I think wish Csound5 under the hood, the WinSound front-end
>> would support all of Csound5 - right?  So.....
>>
>> John.....  please bring back a cross-platform WinSound and maybe
>> rename this front-end to something else that won't confuse.  And....
>> if possible, including a text editor would be cool...  It is very
>> important for beginners.
>> The least they have to hunt for to get working with the program the
>> better.
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> On Jan 9, 2007, at 8:24 AM, Andres Cabrera wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross-platform
>>> front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like the
>>> versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound might
>>> also
>>> be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
>>> student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files
>>> without
>>> any hassle.
>>>
>>>
>>> Art Hunkins wrote:
>>>> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a
>>>> Csound
>>>> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of
>>>> Winsound.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I think
>>> it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called
>>> CSDPlayer,
>>> written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.
>>>
>>>> I don't see the need for other Options, nor Utilities, nor
>>>> Environment
>>>> variable settings - no Editors, no extensive Help files. Not even
>>>> a StdOut
>>>> screen. (This is *not* for debugging.) I'd assume that anyone
>>>> using this
>>>> player already has csound correctly set up on his/her system. This
>>>> is just a
>>>> simple means of performance or making a .wav file. I rather like
>>>> the various
>>>> output format items and other render flags hidden in a menu item/
>>>> checkboxes
>>>> somewhere. An  uncluttered look.
>>>>
>>> I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's too
>>> much
>>> hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back and
>>> forth between editor and front end.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andrés
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ---
>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to
>>> share your
>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
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>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
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> 
> Victor Lazzarini
> Music Technology Laboratory
> Music Department
> National University of Ireland, Maynooth 
> 
> 
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Thanks David. If this editor had integrated play/stop buttons to run 
Csound through the API it would be really great. Have you thought of 
adding this? It would also be nice for new users. Thanks for putting up 
the windows binary.

Rory.


David Akbari wrote:
> In the meantime, Windows users can find a pre-packaged binary .exe file at
> 
> http://www.csounds.com/akbari/cseditor.zip
> 
> Thanks for the support guys! :D
> 
> 
> -David
> 
> On 1/10/07, Rory Walsh  wrote:
>> I agree, it lightweight, easy to maintain and could be easily be
>> developed in a simple all-in-one editor frontend, and the best of all is
>> it's cross platform. I think Michael said he will include a built
>> version in the next windows release.
>>
>> Rory.
>>
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini wrote:
>>> What about David Akbari's editor? That might be the best shot at a
>>> default frontend.
>>>
>>> At 14:43 09/01/2007, you wrote:
>>>> I agree.
>>>>
>>>> Csound5GUI isn't that bad, but I would be happy
>>>> for John ffitch  to finish his cross-platform WinSound front-end
>>>> and then maintain it.  (In the past, the only problem with WinSound
>>>> was that this embedded version of Csound did not support real-time
>>>> MIDI - I think wish Csound5 under the hood, the WinSound front-end
>>>> would support all of Csound5 - right?  So.....
>>>>
>>>> John.....  please bring back a cross-platform WinSound and maybe
>>>> rename this front-end to something else that won't confuse.  And....
>>>> if possible, including a text editor would be cool...  It is very
>>>> important for beginners.
>>>> The least they have to hunt for to get working with the program the
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>> -dB
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 9, 2007, at 8:24 AM, Andres Cabrera wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross-platform
>>>>> front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like the
>>>>> versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound might
>>>>> also
>>>>> be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
>>>>> student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files
>>>>> without
>>>>> any hassle.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Art Hunkins wrote:
>>>>>> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a
>>>>>> Csound
>>>>>> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of
>>>>>> Winsound.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I think
>>>>> it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called
>>>>> CSDPlayer,
>>>>> written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see the need for other Options, nor Utilities, nor
>>>>>> Environment
>>>>>> variable settings - no Editors, no extensive Help files. Not even
>>>>>> a StdOut
>>>>>> screen. (This is *not* for debugging.) I'd assume that anyone
>>>>>> using this
>>>>>> player already has csound correctly set up on his/her system. This
>>>>>> is just a
>>>>>> simple means of performance or making a .wav file. I rather like
>>>>>> the various
>>>>>> output format items and other render flags hidden in a menu item/
>>>>>> checkboxes
>>>>>> somewhere. An  uncluttered look.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's too
>>>>> much
>>>>> hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back and
>>>>> forth between editor and front end.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Andrés
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
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>>>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Victor Lazzarini
>>> Music Technology Laboratory
>>> Music Department
>>> National University of Ireland, Maynooth
>>>
>>>
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> 
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I agree with what Andres has to say here.  I think the standard "Basic" GUI
should be more than a simple CSD player.  It should have the following basic
features in my opinion:

* Allow selecting of orc/sco/csd and the directories for environment
variables through standard "open file" dialogs.

* Render/Pause/Stop buttons in the main window for controlling Csound.

* Display csound messages in a separate tab or window.  Graphs would be nice
as well.

* A button in the main window for launching a soundfile player application
with the output soundfile so that it can be listened to multiple times.  The
player app would be selectable in a preferences dialog.

* Allow setting of the most commonly used options using checkboxes/radio
buttons/pop-up menus as appropriate.  (Perhaps in a different tabbed pane
from the "main" settings -- all preconfigured to reasonable defaults for the
current platform).

* Able to choose between real-time and non-real-time performance.  A menu
item called "Buffer Sizes..." should bring up a dialog to choose two sets of
values for -b and -B: one for real-time, one for non.  A "Help" button in
this dialog would display text guiding the user on how to configure these
settings.

* A built-in text editor like cseditor would be great, although the ability
to launch an external editor and open the orc/sco/csd files is a good second
option.

* A dialog box for each analysis utility with GUI controls for options (and
reasonable defaults) would be nice but could be considered something to add
later).

* Should either (a) remember the last configuration of settings when
launched again, (b) allow saving and opening of configuration files, or (c)
both of the above.

That should cover most of the basics.  I have not tried any of the Windows
GUIs to see how well they fit this specification.  I think a cross-platform
GUI written in Python might be the best way to go.  Using FLTK as the
toolkit for the GUI seems very problematic.  It would be nice if the GUI
provided callbacks to Csound for messages, graphs, sensekey, and xyin.

I think that the MacOS 9 GUI -- CsoundFront -- originally developed by Matt
Ingalls and maintained by me provides a very good model for how I think such
a program should work.  It is not ideal in all respects, and it provides
many more "advanced" features than I've listed above, but it provides a
fairly comprehensive set of controls for setting Csound options and running
the most common utilities without having to type in any commandline flags.
That is the key I think: it should not be necessary to type in commandline
flags to accomplish most tasks.

I've posted two screenshots of CsoundFront online.  The first one shows what
the program looks like when first opened.  This main window is very simple
and many new users could get by for awhile without ever having to go beyond
it.  Double-clicking the name of the orchestra or score opens that file in
the user-selected text editor.  I do think this main window should be
redesigned to better support CSDs and other input file options.  Clicking on
the (+) button in the corner reveals real-time options and more advanced
settings.

http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-start.jpg

The second screenshot shows as many of the CsoundFront windows as I could
fit on the screen.  All settings can be saved in "project" files that can be
opened later and even rendered automatically when opened.

http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-full.jpg

The menus contain the following commands:

Apple:  About CsoundFront, About Csound5Lib (displays LGPL blurb)

File:   New Project, Open Project, Close, Save Project, Save Project As,
    View Files in Text Editor, Quit.

Edit:  Cut, Copy, Paste, Clear, Select All, Preferences

Project:  Project Options, Default Directories, Reset All Options/Settings

Csound:  Render, Analyze, Batch, Stop, Performance Settings, Buffer
    Settings, Override Settings, Score Extraction Settings, Additional
    Options (for typing in missing commandline flags), List Opcodes,
    List Opcode Arguments, List Utilities, Show Version, List Command
    Options, Run Command Line...

Analysis:  Hetro Analysis, Linear Predictive Analysis, Phase Vocoder
    Analysis, Convolution Analysis, ATS Analysis, Export Hetro File,
    Import Hetro File, Export LPC File, Import LPC File, Export PV File,
    Import PV File, Examine PV File (runs PVLOOK)

Score:  Sort Score, Extract from Score, Scot Score Translation, Score
    Generation... (using built-in generator), Other Score Processor...
    (user selectable)

Tools:  Get Soundfile Info, Rescale Soundfile, Mix Soundfiles, Extract
    Audio, Extract Envelope, DeNoiser, Convert Sample Rate, Make CSD,
    MIDI to Csound, Mr. Tweaky, (followed by user-selectable tools such
    as Cecilia, Common Music, etc.), Customize This Menu...

Help:  (eventually will have commands for opening Csound & Mac manuals)

Not all of the miscellaneous utilities in the menus work yet, but I am
slowly getting to them ...

Sorry for the length.  Mike asked for a specification and/or screenshots and
this is not a topic that can be adequately discussed in a few sentences :)

Anthony

Andres Cabrera wrote on 1/9/07 8:24 AM:

> I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross-platform
> front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like the
> versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound might also
> be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
> student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files without
> any hassle.

> Art Hunkins wrote:
>> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a Csound
>> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of Winsound.

> This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I think
> it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called CSDPlayer,
> written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.

> I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's too much
> hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back and
> forth between editor and front end.


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I would propose something even simpler. Basically David's cseditor with 
a play/pause/stop button. For csd files I think it's good to let users 
add their own options between the CsOptions tags and for orc/sco 
pairings a simple text field at the top of the editor where users can 
supply their own command line would be enough. All that would be missing 
would be the csound message output. I don't think we need a whole load 
of checkboxes for 'options' and 'setting'. I always feel like it's 
hiding the real 'csound' from new users.... does this actually help new 
users or only make things more frustrating for them in the long run?

Rory.





Anthony Kozar wrote:
> I agree with what Andres has to say here.  I think the standard "Basic" GUI
> should be more than a simple CSD player.  It should have the following basic
> features in my opinion:
> 
> * Allow selecting of orc/sco/csd and the directories for environment
> variables through standard "open file" dialogs.
> 
> * Render/Pause/Stop buttons in the main window for controlling Csound.
> 
> * Display csound messages in a separate tab or window.  Graphs would be nice
> as well.
> 
> * A button in the main window for launching a soundfile player application
> with the output soundfile so that it can be listened to multiple times.  The
> player app would be selectable in a preferences dialog.
> 
> * Allow setting of the most commonly used options using checkboxes/radio
> buttons/pop-up menus as appropriate.  (Perhaps in a different tabbed pane
> from the "main" settings -- all preconfigured to reasonable defaults for the
> current platform).
> 
> * Able to choose between real-time and non-real-time performance.  A menu
> item called "Buffer Sizes..." should bring up a dialog to choose two sets of
> values for -b and -B: one for real-time, one for non.  A "Help" button in
> this dialog would display text guiding the user on how to configure these
> settings.
> 
> * A built-in text editor like cseditor would be great, although the ability
> to launch an external editor and open the orc/sco/csd files is a good second
> option.
> 
> * A dialog box for each analysis utility with GUI controls for options (and
> reasonable defaults) would be nice but could be considered something to add
> later).
> 
> * Should either (a) remember the last configuration of settings when
> launched again, (b) allow saving and opening of configuration files, or (c)
> both of the above.
> 
> That should cover most of the basics.  I have not tried any of the Windows
> GUIs to see how well they fit this specification.  I think a cross-platform
> GUI written in Python might be the best way to go.  Using FLTK as the
> toolkit for the GUI seems very problematic.  It would be nice if the GUI
> provided callbacks to Csound for messages, graphs, sensekey, and xyin.
> 
> I think that the MacOS 9 GUI -- CsoundFront -- originally developed by Matt
> Ingalls and maintained by me provides a very good model for how I think such
> a program should work.  It is not ideal in all respects, and it provides
> many more "advanced" features than I've listed above, but it provides a
> fairly comprehensive set of controls for setting Csound options and running
> the most common utilities without having to type in any commandline flags.
> That is the key I think: it should not be necessary to type in commandline
> flags to accomplish most tasks.
> 
> I've posted two screenshots of CsoundFront online.  The first one shows what
> the program looks like when first opened.  This main window is very simple
> and many new users could get by for awhile without ever having to go beyond
> it.  Double-clicking the name of the orchestra or score opens that file in
> the user-selected text editor.  I do think this main window should be
> redesigned to better support CSDs and other input file options.  Clicking on
> the (+) button in the corner reveals real-time options and more advanced
> settings.
> 
> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-start.jpg
> 
> The second screenshot shows as many of the CsoundFront windows as I could
> fit on the screen.  All settings can be saved in "project" files that can be
> opened later and even rendered automatically when opened.
> 
> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-full.jpg
> 
> The menus contain the following commands:
> 
> Apple:  About CsoundFront, About Csound5Lib (displays LGPL blurb)
> 
> File:   New Project, Open Project, Close, Save Project, Save Project As,
>     View Files in Text Editor, Quit.
> 
> Edit:  Cut, Copy, Paste, Clear, Select All, Preferences
> 
> Project:  Project Options, Default Directories, Reset All Options/Settings
> 
> Csound:  Render, Analyze, Batch, Stop, Performance Settings, Buffer
>     Settings, Override Settings, Score Extraction Settings, Additional
>     Options (for typing in missing commandline flags), List Opcodes,
>     List Opcode Arguments, List Utilities, Show Version, List Command
>     Options, Run Command Line...
> 
> Analysis:  Hetro Analysis, Linear Predictive Analysis, Phase Vocoder
>     Analysis, Convolution Analysis, ATS Analysis, Export Hetro File,
>     Import Hetro File, Export LPC File, Import LPC File, Export PV File,
>     Import PV File, Examine PV File (runs PVLOOK)
> 
> Score:  Sort Score, Extract from Score, Scot Score Translation, Score
>     Generation... (using built-in generator), Other Score Processor...
>     (user selectable)
> 
> Tools:  Get Soundfile Info, Rescale Soundfile, Mix Soundfiles, Extract
>     Audio, Extract Envelope, DeNoiser, Convert Sample Rate, Make CSD,
>     MIDI to Csound, Mr. Tweaky, (followed by user-selectable tools such
>     as Cecilia, Common Music, etc.), Customize This Menu...
> 
> Help:  (eventually will have commands for opening Csound & Mac manuals)
> 
> Not all of the miscellaneous utilities in the menus work yet, but I am
> slowly getting to them ...
> 
> Sorry for the length.  Mike asked for a specification and/or screenshots and
> this is not a topic that can be adequately discussed in a few sentences :)
> 
> Anthony
> 
> Andres Cabrera wrote on 1/9/07 8:24 AM:
> 
>> I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross-platform
>> front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like the
>> versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound might also
>> be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
>> student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files without
>> any hassle.
> 
>> Art Hunkins wrote:
>>> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders a Csound
>>> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of Winsound.
> 
>> This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I think
>> it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called CSDPlayer,
>> written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.
> 
>> I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's too much
>> hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back and
>> forth between editor and front end.
> 
> 
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I agree with you Anthony, and it looks to me like we want an improved
csound5GUI....
Looking at it just now, I really like it, and I think the changes it
needs are not very major...


Anthony Kozar wrote:
> I agree with what Andres has to say here.  I think the standard "Basic" GUI
> should be more than a simple CSD player.  It should have the following basic
> features in my opinion:
>
> * Allow selecting of orc/sco/csd and the directories for environment
> variables through standard "open file" dialogs.
>
>   
there
> * Render/Pause/Stop buttons in the main window for controlling Csound.
>
>   
there

> * Display csound messages in a separate tab or window.  Graphs would be nice
> as well.
>
>   
there
> * A button in the main window for launching a soundfile player application
> with the output soundfile so that it can be listened to multiple times.  The
> player app would be selectable in a preferences dialog.
>
>   
has an "edit" button, could have a simple "play" button as well.
> * Allow setting of the most commonly used options using checkboxes/radio
> buttons/pop-up menus as appropriate.  (Perhaps in a different tabbed pane
> from the "main" settings -- all preconfigured to reasonable defaults for the
> current platform).
>
>   
there, but the defaults are not the best, IMO. I also think it could be
designed to be easier to use.
> * Able to choose between real-time and non-real-time performance.  A menu
> item called "Buffer Sizes..." should bring up a dialog to choose two sets of
> values for -b and -B: one for real-time, one for non.  A "Help" button in
> this dialog would display text guiding the user on how to configure these
> settings.
>
>   
Not there.
> * A built-in text editor like cseditor would be great, although the ability
> to launch an external editor and open the orc/sco/csd files is a good second
> option.
>
>   
there. cseditor is not the default, vim is, which is not the most common
choice.
> * A dialog box for each analysis utility with GUI controls for options (and
> reasonable defaults) would be nice but could be considered something to add
> later).
>
>   
there, and very complete.
> * Should either (a) remember the last configuration of settings when
> launched again, (b) allow saving and opening of configuration files, or (c)
> both of the above.
>
>   
not there.
> That should cover most of the basics.  I have not tried any of the Windows
> GUIs to see how well they fit this specification.  I think a cross-platform
> GUI written in Python might be the best way to go.  Using FLTK as the
> toolkit for the GUI seems very problematic.  It would be nice if the GUI
> provided callbacks to Csound for messages, graphs, sensekey, and xyin.
>
>   
true, I agree, though Carlos Pita posted fixes (which I think haven't
been incorporated) in the thread: Re: [Csnd] csound5gui and realtime
(patches).
> I think that the MacOS 9 GUI -- CsoundFront -- originally developed by Matt
> Ingalls and maintained by me provides a very good model for how I think such
> a program should work.  It is not ideal in all respects, and it provides
> many more "advanced" features than I've listed above, but it provides a
> fairly comprehensive set of controls for setting Csound options and running
> the most common utilities without having to type in any commandline flags.
> That is the key I think: it should not be necessary to type in commandline
> flags to accomplish most tasks.
>
> I've posted two screenshots of CsoundFront online.  The first one shows what
> the program looks like when first opened.  This main window is very simple
> and many new users could get by for awhile without ever having to go beyond
> it.  Double-clicking the name of the orchestra or score opens that file in
> the user-selected text editor.  I do think this main window should be
> redesigned to better support CSDs and other input file options.  Clicking on
> the (+) button in the corner reveals real-time options and more advanced
> settings.
>
> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-start.jpg
>
> The second screenshot shows as many of the CsoundFront windows as I could
> fit on the screen.  All settings can be saved in "project" files that can be
> opened later and even rendered automatically when opened.
>
> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-full.jpg
>
> The menus contain the following commands:
>
> Apple:  About CsoundFront, About Csound5Lib (displays LGPL blurb)
>
> File:   New Project, Open Project, Close, Save Project, Save Project As,
>     View Files in Text Editor, Quit.
>
> Edit:  Cut, Copy, Paste, Clear, Select All, Preferences
>
> Project:  Project Options, Default Directories, Reset All Options/Settings
>
> Csound:  Render, Analyze, Batch, Stop, Performance Settings, Buffer
>     Settings, Override Settings, Score Extraction Settings, Additional
>     Options (for typing in missing commandline flags), List Opcodes,
>     List Opcode Arguments, List Utilities, Show Version, List Command
>     Options, Run Command Line...
>
> Analysis:  Hetro Analysis, Linear Predictive Analysis, Phase Vocoder
>     Analysis, Convolution Analysis, ATS Analysis, Export Hetro File,
>     Import Hetro File, Export LPC File, Import LPC File, Export PV File,
>     Import PV File, Examine PV File (runs PVLOOK)
>
> Score:  Sort Score, Extract from Score, Scot Score Translation, Score
>     Generation... (using built-in generator), Other Score Processor...
>     (user selectable)
>
> Tools:  Get Soundfile Info, Rescale Soundfile, Mix Soundfiles, Extract
>     Audio, Extract Envelope, DeNoiser, Convert Sample Rate, Make CSD,
>     MIDI to Csound, Mr. Tweaky, (followed by user-selectable tools such
>     as Cecilia, Common Music, etc.), Customize This Menu...
>
> Help:  (eventually will have commands for opening Csound & Mac manuals)
>
> Not all of the miscellaneous utilities in the menus work yet, but I am
> slowly getting to them ...
>
> Sorry for the length.  Mike asked for a specification and/or screenshots and
> this is not a topic that can be adequately discussed in a few sentences :)
>
> Anthony
>   
I think Istvan's csoundGUI is a good starting point, but it could be
designed to be easier to use.
I think the only reason not to reuse (at least parts of) csoundGUI is FLTK.

Cheers,
Andrés


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Rory,

I think Anthony's proposal is excellent.  And I disagree with you here.

 From my 20+ years of teaching Csound to thousands of USERS.  I can  
assure you that Matt Ingalls'
check boxes and prefs dialogs and setting  ACTUALLY help new users -  
and they make Csound
look and work more like ALL the commercial APPs that they are used to  
working with to make music.
Both WinSound and the Csound5GUI already have
most of these essential features - except that they are missing the  
embedded text editor.

Looking at and expanding on these would be excellent.   I think that  
John ffitch plans to do this.

-dr.B.


On Jan 11, 2007, at 1:23 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:

> I would propose something even simpler. Basically David's cseditor  
> with
> a play/pause/stop button. For csd files I think it's good to let users
> add their own options between the CsOptions tags and for orc/sco
> pairings a simple text field at the top of the editor where users can
> supply their own command line would be enough. All that would be  
> missing
> would be the csound message output. I don't think we need a whole load
> of checkboxes for 'options' and 'setting'. I always feel like it's
> hiding the real 'csound' from new users.... does this actually help  
> new
> users or only make things more frustrating for them in the long run?
>
> Rory.
>
>
>
>
>
> Anthony Kozar wrote:
>> I agree with what Andres has to say here.  I think the standard  
>> "Basic" GUI
>> should be more than a simple CSD player.  It should have the  
>> following basic
>> features in my opinion:
>>
>> * Allow selecting of orc/sco/csd and the directories for environment
>> variables through standard "open file" dialogs.
>>
>> * Render/Pause/Stop buttons in the main window for controlling  
>> Csound.
>>
>> * Display csound messages in a separate tab or window.  Graphs  
>> would be nice
>> as well.
>>
>> * A button in the main window for launching a soundfile player  
>> application
>> with the output soundfile so that it can be listened to multiple  
>> times.  The
>> player app would be selectable in a preferences dialog.
>>
>> * Allow setting of the most commonly used options using checkboxes/ 
>> radio
>> buttons/pop-up menus as appropriate.  (Perhaps in a different  
>> tabbed pane
>> from the "main" settings -- all preconfigured to reasonable  
>> defaults for the
>> current platform).
>>
>> * Able to choose between real-time and non-real-time performance.   
>> A menu
>> item called "Buffer Sizes..." should bring up a dialog to choose  
>> two sets of
>> values for -b and -B: one for real-time, one for non.  A "Help"  
>> button in
>> this dialog would display text guiding the user on how to  
>> configure these
>> settings.
>>
>> * A built-in text editor like cseditor would be great, although  
>> the ability
>> to launch an external editor and open the orc/sco/csd files is a  
>> good second
>> option.
>>
>> * A dialog box for each analysis utility with GUI controls for  
>> options (and
>> reasonable defaults) would be nice but could be considered  
>> something to add
>> later).
>>
>> * Should either (a) remember the last configuration of settings when
>> launched again, (b) allow saving and opening of configuration  
>> files, or (c)
>> both of the above.
>>
>> That should cover most of the basics.  I have not tried any of the  
>> Windows
>> GUIs to see how well they fit this specification.  I think a cross- 
>> platform
>> GUI written in Python might be the best way to go.  Using FLTK as the
>> toolkit for the GUI seems very problematic.  It would be nice if  
>> the GUI
>> provided callbacks to Csound for messages, graphs, sensekey, and  
>> xyin.
>>
>> I think that the MacOS 9 GUI -- CsoundFront -- originally  
>> developed by Matt
>> Ingalls and maintained by me provides a very good model for how I  
>> think such
>> a program should work.  It is not ideal in all respects, and it  
>> provides
>> many more "advanced" features than I've listed above, but it  
>> provides a
>> fairly comprehensive set of controls for setting Csound options  
>> and running
>> the most common utilities without having to type in any  
>> commandline flags.
>> That is the key I think: it should not be necessary to type in  
>> commandline
>> flags to accomplish most tasks.
>>
>> I've posted two screenshots of CsoundFront online.  The first one  
>> shows what
>> the program looks like when first opened.  This main window is  
>> very simple
>> and many new users could get by for awhile without ever having to  
>> go beyond
>> it.  Double-clicking the name of the orchestra or score opens that  
>> file in
>> the user-selected text editor.  I do think this main window should be
>> redesigned to better support CSDs and other input file options.   
>> Clicking on
>> the (+) button in the corner reveals real-time options and more  
>> advanced
>> settings.
>>
>> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-start.jpg
>>
>> The second screenshot shows as many of the CsoundFront windows as  
>> I could
>> fit on the screen.  All settings can be saved in "project" files  
>> that can be
>> opened later and even rendered automatically when opened.
>>
>> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-full.jpg
>>
>> The menus contain the following commands:
>>
>> Apple:  About CsoundFront, About Csound5Lib (displays LGPL blurb)
>>
>> File:   New Project, Open Project, Close, Save Project, Save  
>> Project As,
>>     View Files in Text Editor, Quit.
>>
>> Edit:  Cut, Copy, Paste, Clear, Select All, Preferences
>>
>> Project:  Project Options, Default Directories, Reset All Options/ 
>> Settings
>>
>> Csound:  Render, Analyze, Batch, Stop, Performance Settings, Buffer
>>     Settings, Override Settings, Score Extraction Settings,  
>> Additional
>>     Options (for typing in missing commandline flags), List Opcodes,
>>     List Opcode Arguments, List Utilities, Show Version, List Command
>>     Options, Run Command Line...
>>
>> Analysis:  Hetro Analysis, Linear Predictive Analysis, Phase Vocoder
>>     Analysis, Convolution Analysis, ATS Analysis, Export Hetro File,
>>     Import Hetro File, Export LPC File, Import LPC File, Export PV  
>> File,
>>     Import PV File, Examine PV File (runs PVLOOK)
>>
>> Score:  Sort Score, Extract from Score, Scot Score Translation, Score
>>     Generation... (using built-in generator), Other Score  
>> Processor...
>>     (user selectable)
>>
>> Tools:  Get Soundfile Info, Rescale Soundfile, Mix Soundfiles,  
>> Extract
>>     Audio, Extract Envelope, DeNoiser, Convert Sample Rate, Make CSD,
>>     MIDI to Csound, Mr. Tweaky, (followed by user-selectable tools  
>> such
>>     as Cecilia, Common Music, etc.), Customize This Menu...
>>
>> Help:  (eventually will have commands for opening Csound & Mac  
>> manuals)
>>
>> Not all of the miscellaneous utilities in the menus work yet, but  
>> I am
>> slowly getting to them ...
>>
>> Sorry for the length.  Mike asked for a specification and/or  
>> screenshots and
>> this is not a topic that can be adequately discussed in a few  
>> sentences :)
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>> Andres Cabrera wrote on 1/9/07 8:24 AM:
>>
>>> I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross- 
>>> platform
>>> front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like  
>>> the
>>> versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound  
>>> might also
>>> be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
>>> student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files  
>>> without
>>> any hassle.
>>
>>> Art Hunkins wrote:
>>>> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders  
>>>> a Csound
>>>> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of  
>>>> Winsound.
>>
>>> This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I  
>>> think
>>> it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called  
>>> CSDPlayer,
>>> written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.
>>
>>> I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's  
>>> too much
>>> hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back  
>>> and
>>> forth between editor and front end.
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> ----
>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
>> share your
>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn  
>> cash
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>
>
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I agree that if one of the current Csound GUIs had an editor it would be 
best for everyone. If David's can be embedded it would be great, but 
when I suggested something simple I was thinking more in terms of the 
work David would have to do to turn his editor into a fully functional 
Csound frontend. It hadn't dawned on me to take one of current frontends 
and embed an editor! Sorry, my heads a bit slow after the Christmas 
break..

Rory.


Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
> Rory,
> 
> I think Anthony's proposal is excellent.  And I disagree with you here.
> 
>  From my 20+ years of teaching Csound to thousands of USERS.  I can  
> assure you that Matt Ingalls'
> check boxes and prefs dialogs and setting  ACTUALLY help new users -  
> and they make Csound
> look and work more like ALL the commercial APPs that they are used to  
> working with to make music.
> Both WinSound and the Csound5GUI already have
> most of these essential features - except that they are missing the  
> embedded text editor.
> 
> Looking at and expanding on these would be excellent.   I think that  
> John ffitch plans to do this.
> 
> -dr.B.
> 
> 
> On Jan 11, 2007, at 1:23 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:
> 
>> I would propose something even simpler. Basically David's cseditor  
>> with
>> a play/pause/stop button. For csd files I think it's good to let users
>> add their own options between the CsOptions tags and for orc/sco
>> pairings a simple text field at the top of the editor where users can
>> supply their own command line would be enough. All that would be  
>> missing
>> would be the csound message output. I don't think we need a whole load
>> of checkboxes for 'options' and 'setting'. I always feel like it's
>> hiding the real 'csound' from new users.... does this actually help  
>> new
>> users or only make things more frustrating for them in the long run?
>>
>> Rory.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anthony Kozar wrote:
>>> I agree with what Andres has to say here.  I think the standard  
>>> "Basic" GUI
>>> should be more than a simple CSD player.  It should have the  
>>> following basic
>>> features in my opinion:
>>>
>>> * Allow selecting of orc/sco/csd and the directories for environment
>>> variables through standard "open file" dialogs.
>>>
>>> * Render/Pause/Stop buttons in the main window for controlling  
>>> Csound.
>>>
>>> * Display csound messages in a separate tab or window.  Graphs  
>>> would be nice
>>> as well.
>>>
>>> * A button in the main window for launching a soundfile player  
>>> application
>>> with the output soundfile so that it can be listened to multiple  
>>> times.  The
>>> player app would be selectable in a preferences dialog.
>>>
>>> * Allow setting of the most commonly used options using checkboxes/ 
>>> radio
>>> buttons/pop-up menus as appropriate.  (Perhaps in a different  
>>> tabbed pane
>>> from the "main" settings -- all preconfigured to reasonable  
>>> defaults for the
>>> current platform).
>>>
>>> * Able to choose between real-time and non-real-time performance.   
>>> A menu
>>> item called "Buffer Sizes..." should bring up a dialog to choose  
>>> two sets of
>>> values for -b and -B: one for real-time, one for non.  A "Help"  
>>> button in
>>> this dialog would display text guiding the user on how to  
>>> configure these
>>> settings.
>>>
>>> * A built-in text editor like cseditor would be great, although  
>>> the ability
>>> to launch an external editor and open the orc/sco/csd files is a  
>>> good second
>>> option.
>>>
>>> * A dialog box for each analysis utility with GUI controls for  
>>> options (and
>>> reasonable defaults) would be nice but could be considered  
>>> something to add
>>> later).
>>>
>>> * Should either (a) remember the last configuration of settings when
>>> launched again, (b) allow saving and opening of configuration  
>>> files, or (c)
>>> both of the above.
>>>
>>> That should cover most of the basics.  I have not tried any of the  
>>> Windows
>>> GUIs to see how well they fit this specification.  I think a cross- 
>>> platform
>>> GUI written in Python might be the best way to go.  Using FLTK as the
>>> toolkit for the GUI seems very problematic.  It would be nice if  
>>> the GUI
>>> provided callbacks to Csound for messages, graphs, sensekey, and  
>>> xyin.
>>>
>>> I think that the MacOS 9 GUI -- CsoundFront -- originally  
>>> developed by Matt
>>> Ingalls and maintained by me provides a very good model for how I  
>>> think such
>>> a program should work.  It is not ideal in all respects, and it  
>>> provides
>>> many more "advanced" features than I've listed above, but it  
>>> provides a
>>> fairly comprehensive set of controls for setting Csound options  
>>> and running
>>> the most common utilities without having to type in any  
>>> commandline flags.
>>> That is the key I think: it should not be necessary to type in  
>>> commandline
>>> flags to accomplish most tasks.
>>>
>>> I've posted two screenshots of CsoundFront online.  The first one  
>>> shows what
>>> the program looks like when first opened.  This main window is  
>>> very simple
>>> and many new users could get by for awhile without ever having to  
>>> go beyond
>>> it.  Double-clicking the name of the orchestra or score opens that  
>>> file in
>>> the user-selected text editor.  I do think this main window should be
>>> redesigned to better support CSDs and other input file options.   
>>> Clicking on
>>> the (+) button in the corner reveals real-time options and more  
>>> advanced
>>> settings.
>>>
>>> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-start.jpg
>>>
>>> The second screenshot shows as many of the CsoundFront windows as  
>>> I could
>>> fit on the screen.  All settings can be saved in "project" files  
>>> that can be
>>> opened later and even rendered automatically when opened.
>>>
>>> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-full.jpg
>>>
>>> The menus contain the following commands:
>>>
>>> Apple:  About CsoundFront, About Csound5Lib (displays LGPL blurb)
>>>
>>> File:   New Project, Open Project, Close, Save Project, Save  
>>> Project As,
>>>     View Files in Text Editor, Quit.
>>>
>>> Edit:  Cut, Copy, Paste, Clear, Select All, Preferences
>>>
>>> Project:  Project Options, Default Directories, Reset All Options/ 
>>> Settings
>>>
>>> Csound:  Render, Analyze, Batch, Stop, Performance Settings, Buffer
>>>     Settings, Override Settings, Score Extraction Settings,  
>>> Additional
>>>     Options (for typing in missing commandline flags), List Opcodes,
>>>     List Opcode Arguments, List Utilities, Show Version, List Command
>>>     Options, Run Command Line...
>>>
>>> Analysis:  Hetro Analysis, Linear Predictive Analysis, Phase Vocoder
>>>     Analysis, Convolution Analysis, ATS Analysis, Export Hetro File,
>>>     Import Hetro File, Export LPC File, Import LPC File, Export PV  
>>> File,
>>>     Import PV File, Examine PV File (runs PVLOOK)
>>>
>>> Score:  Sort Score, Extract from Score, Scot Score Translation, Score
>>>     Generation... (using built-in generator), Other Score  
>>> Processor...
>>>     (user selectable)
>>>
>>> Tools:  Get Soundfile Info, Rescale Soundfile, Mix Soundfiles,  
>>> Extract
>>>     Audio, Extract Envelope, DeNoiser, Convert Sample Rate, Make CSD,
>>>     MIDI to Csound, Mr. Tweaky, (followed by user-selectable tools  
>>> such
>>>     as Cecilia, Common Music, etc.), Customize This Menu...
>>>
>>> Help:  (eventually will have commands for opening Csound & Mac  
>>> manuals)
>>>
>>> Not all of the miscellaneous utilities in the menus work yet, but  
>>> I am
>>> slowly getting to them ...
>>>
>>> Sorry for the length.  Mike asked for a specification and/or  
>>> screenshots and
>>> this is not a topic that can be adequately discussed in a few  
>>> sentences :)
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>> Andres Cabrera wrote on 1/9/07 8:24 AM:
>>>
>>>> I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross- 
>>>> platform
>>>> front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like  
>>>> the
>>>> versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound  
>>>> might also
>>>> be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
>>>> student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files  
>>>> without
>>>> any hassle.
>>>> Art Hunkins wrote:
>>>>> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders  
>>>>> a Csound
>>>>> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of  
>>>>> Winsound.
>>>> This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I  
>>>> think
>>>> it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called  
>>>> CSDPlayer,
>>>> written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.
>>>> I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's  
>>>> too much
>>>> hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back  
>>>> and
>>>> forth between editor and front end.
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>> ----
>>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
>>> share your
>>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn  
>>> cash
>>> http://www.techsay.com/default.php? 
>>> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Csound-devel mailing list
>>> Csound-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
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>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
>> share your
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> 
> 
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David's editor does work perfectly with Csound5Gui on my Mac currently.

What I am hoping is that David's editor gets embedded into an  
enhanced version
of John ffitch's WinSound.

That would be perfect.

It would be great for John to get some ideas from Csound5GUI too...   
Most of them, he will
discover - were his ideas in the first place.

-dB

On Jan 11, 2007, at 6:42 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:

> I agree that if one of the current Csound GUIs had an editor it  
> would be
> best for everyone. If David's can be embedded it would be great, but
> when I suggested something simple I was thinking more in terms of the
> work David would have to do to turn his editor into a fully functional
> Csound frontend. It hadn't dawned on me to take one of current  
> frontends
> and embed an editor! Sorry, my heads a bit slow after the Christmas
> break..
>
> Rory.
>
>
> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>> Rory,
>>
>> I think Anthony's proposal is excellent.  And I disagree with you  
>> here.
>>
>>  From my 20+ years of teaching Csound to thousands of USERS.  I can
>> assure you that Matt Ingalls'
>> check boxes and prefs dialogs and setting  ACTUALLY help new users -
>> and they make Csound
>> look and work more like ALL the commercial APPs that they are used to
>> working with to make music.
>> Both WinSound and the Csound5GUI already have
>> most of these essential features - except that they are missing the
>> embedded text editor.
>>
>> Looking at and expanding on these would be excellent.   I think that
>> John ffitch plans to do this.
>>
>> -dr.B.
>>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2007, at 1:23 PM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>>
>>> I would propose something even simpler. Basically David's cseditor
>>> with
>>> a play/pause/stop button. For csd files I think it's good to let  
>>> users
>>> add their own options between the CsOptions tags and for orc/sco
>>> pairings a simple text field at the top of the editor where users  
>>> can
>>> supply their own command line would be enough. All that would be
>>> missing
>>> would be the csound message output. I don't think we need a whole  
>>> load
>>> of checkboxes for 'options' and 'setting'. I always feel like it's
>>> hiding the real 'csound' from new users.... does this actually help
>>> new
>>> users or only make things more frustrating for them in the long run?
>>>
>>> Rory.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anthony Kozar wrote:
>>>> I agree with what Andres has to say here.  I think the standard
>>>> "Basic" GUI
>>>> should be more than a simple CSD player.  It should have the
>>>> following basic
>>>> features in my opinion:
>>>>
>>>> * Allow selecting of orc/sco/csd and the directories for  
>>>> environment
>>>> variables through standard "open file" dialogs.
>>>>
>>>> * Render/Pause/Stop buttons in the main window for controlling
>>>> Csound.
>>>>
>>>> * Display csound messages in a separate tab or window.  Graphs
>>>> would be nice
>>>> as well.
>>>>
>>>> * A button in the main window for launching a soundfile player
>>>> application
>>>> with the output soundfile so that it can be listened to multiple
>>>> times.  The
>>>> player app would be selectable in a preferences dialog.
>>>>
>>>> * Allow setting of the most commonly used options using checkboxes/
>>>> radio
>>>> buttons/pop-up menus as appropriate.  (Perhaps in a different
>>>> tabbed pane
>>>> from the "main" settings -- all preconfigured to reasonable
>>>> defaults for the
>>>> current platform).
>>>>
>>>> * Able to choose between real-time and non-real-time performance.
>>>> A menu
>>>> item called "Buffer Sizes..." should bring up a dialog to choose
>>>> two sets of
>>>> values for -b and -B: one for real-time, one for non.  A "Help"
>>>> button in
>>>> this dialog would display text guiding the user on how to
>>>> configure these
>>>> settings.
>>>>
>>>> * A built-in text editor like cseditor would be great, although
>>>> the ability
>>>> to launch an external editor and open the orc/sco/csd files is a
>>>> good second
>>>> option.
>>>>
>>>> * A dialog box for each analysis utility with GUI controls for
>>>> options (and
>>>> reasonable defaults) would be nice but could be considered
>>>> something to add
>>>> later).
>>>>
>>>> * Should either (a) remember the last configuration of settings  
>>>> when
>>>> launched again, (b) allow saving and opening of configuration
>>>> files, or (c)
>>>> both of the above.
>>>>
>>>> That should cover most of the basics.  I have not tried any of the
>>>> Windows
>>>> GUIs to see how well they fit this specification.  I think a cross-
>>>> platform
>>>> GUI written in Python might be the best way to go.  Using FLTK  
>>>> as the
>>>> toolkit for the GUI seems very problematic.  It would be nice if
>>>> the GUI
>>>> provided callbacks to Csound for messages, graphs, sensekey, and
>>>> xyin.
>>>>
>>>> I think that the MacOS 9 GUI -- CsoundFront -- originally
>>>> developed by Matt
>>>> Ingalls and maintained by me provides a very good model for how I
>>>> think such
>>>> a program should work.  It is not ideal in all respects, and it
>>>> provides
>>>> many more "advanced" features than I've listed above, but it
>>>> provides a
>>>> fairly comprehensive set of controls for setting Csound options
>>>> and running
>>>> the most common utilities without having to type in any
>>>> commandline flags.
>>>> That is the key I think: it should not be necessary to type in
>>>> commandline
>>>> flags to accomplish most tasks.
>>>>
>>>> I've posted two screenshots of CsoundFront online.  The first one
>>>> shows what
>>>> the program looks like when first opened.  This main window is
>>>> very simple
>>>> and many new users could get by for awhile without ever having to
>>>> go beyond
>>>> it.  Double-clicking the name of the orchestra or score opens that
>>>> file in
>>>> the user-selected text editor.  I do think this main window  
>>>> should be
>>>> redesigned to better support CSDs and other input file options.
>>>> Clicking on
>>>> the (+) button in the corner reveals real-time options and more
>>>> advanced
>>>> settings.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-start.jpg
>>>>
>>>> The second screenshot shows as many of the CsoundFront windows as
>>>> I could
>>>> fit on the screen.  All settings can be saved in "project" files
>>>> that can be
>>>> opened later and even rendered automatically when opened.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.anthonykozar.net/csound-macos/CsoundFront-full.jpg
>>>>
>>>> The menus contain the following commands:
>>>>
>>>> Apple:  About CsoundFront, About Csound5Lib (displays LGPL blurb)
>>>>
>>>> File:   New Project, Open Project, Close, Save Project, Save
>>>> Project As,
>>>>     View Files in Text Editor, Quit.
>>>>
>>>> Edit:  Cut, Copy, Paste, Clear, Select All, Preferences
>>>>
>>>> Project:  Project Options, Default Directories, Reset All Options/
>>>> Settings
>>>>
>>>> Csound:  Render, Analyze, Batch, Stop, Performance Settings, Buffer
>>>>     Settings, Override Settings, Score Extraction Settings,
>>>> Additional
>>>>     Options (for typing in missing commandline flags), List  
>>>> Opcodes,
>>>>     List Opcode Arguments, List Utilities, Show Version, List  
>>>> Command
>>>>     Options, Run Command Line...
>>>>
>>>> Analysis:  Hetro Analysis, Linear Predictive Analysis, Phase  
>>>> Vocoder
>>>>     Analysis, Convolution Analysis, ATS Analysis, Export Hetro  
>>>> File,
>>>>     Import Hetro File, Export LPC File, Import LPC File, Export PV
>>>> File,
>>>>     Import PV File, Examine PV File (runs PVLOOK)
>>>>
>>>> Score:  Sort Score, Extract from Score, Scot Score Translation,  
>>>> Score
>>>>     Generation... (using built-in generator), Other Score
>>>> Processor...
>>>>     (user selectable)
>>>>
>>>> Tools:  Get Soundfile Info, Rescale Soundfile, Mix Soundfiles,
>>>> Extract
>>>>     Audio, Extract Envelope, DeNoiser, Convert Sample Rate, Make  
>>>> CSD,
>>>>     MIDI to Csound, Mr. Tweaky, (followed by user-selectable tools
>>>> such
>>>>     as Cecilia, Common Music, etc.), Customize This Menu...
>>>>
>>>> Help:  (eventually will have commands for opening Csound & Mac
>>>> manuals)
>>>>
>>>> Not all of the miscellaneous utilities in the menus work yet, but
>>>> I am
>>>> slowly getting to them ...
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the length.  Mike asked for a specification and/or
>>>> screenshots and
>>>> this is not a topic that can be adequately discussed in a few
>>>> sentences :)
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>> Andres Cabrera wrote on 1/9/07 8:24 AM:
>>>>
>>>>> I think there should be one standard, simple but useful cross-
>>>>> platform
>>>>> front-end, which can run and edit csound files. Personally I like
>>>>> the
>>>>> versatility of CsoundGUI, but something simpler like Winsound
>>>>> might also
>>>>> be suitable. My main interest is having a simple front-end which a
>>>>> student (new to csound) can easily install and run csound files
>>>>> without
>>>>> any hassle.
>>>>> Art Hunkins wrote:
>>>>>> I'm thinking something really basic - a Windows GUI that renders
>>>>>> a Csound
>>>>>> orc/sco or csd to file or DAC. Rather a stripped down version of
>>>>>> Winsound.
>>>>> This already exists (or partly) as a simple java program, but I
>>>>> think
>>>>> it's only available on the Mac OS X distribution. It's called
>>>>> CSDPlayer,
>>>>> written in java, by Victor Lazzarini.
>>>>> I think an editor like cseditor editor should be included. It's
>>>>> too much
>>>>> hassle for beginners to have to get an extra editor and move back
>>>>> and
>>>>> forth between editor and front end.
>>>>
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