As I have noted before, CsoundVST runs fine as a standalone GUI "out of the box" with the sole dependency of Python, which installs in one step. I will try to improve the installer to look for Python 2.4 and notify the user if it's not there. 

I will also enhance CsoundVST from time to time to take into account the needs of musicians other than myself. I personally prefer internally stored Csound files (which are needed for VST plugins anyway), but I am in the midst of redesigning the CsoundVST GUI to handle environment variables as well as external csd, orc, and sco files.

I also think I will rename the CsoundVST executable to CsoundGui32 and CsoundGui64 or something so it's clearer what it can do.

I need Python myself in order to make music, so that's going to stay. 

Anyone is free to contribute another, non-Python-requiring GUI for Csound 5, and I will put it into the Windows installer, if it's not too redundant -- as I have already done for Victor Lazarrini's frontend and John ffitch's frontend.

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: Art Hunkins 
>Sent: Apr 27, 2006 11:22 AM
>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>
>I very much agree with Michael here. As a matter of fact, I *usually* agree
>with Michael and have much appreciated all of his recent contributions to
>this list.
>
>I see our current situation this way: developers of Csound5 have been
>working away, developing, for some time now, and have gotten Csound5 pretty
>much working to their satisfaction. Csound5 is now "out there" - offered to
>the average user.
>
>While all this has been going on, many an average user has held back,
>somewhat fearful, either still working with older Csounds, or leaving for
>other pastures (e.g., max).
>
>We now need for the average Csound user to "catch up." We also need
>developers to be helpful and responsive to the average user's needs. What is
>OK for the developer (and hmis/her work style) is not user-friendly for the
>average user. *And the average user can do nothing about this on his/her
>own.* Developers must now listen to average user "complaints" and work to
>make Csound5 as simple to use for us average, well-intentioned (and
>technology simple-minded) musicians as possible.
>
>One followup question: Are the days of having a basic Csound(5) executable
>in a single file (such as flcsound, csoundAV and Winsound) gone forever?
>(I've a feeling the answer is yes, but I'd like to hear a definitive reply
>and a simple rationale.)
>
>Art Hunkins
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:25 AM
>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>
>
>As for me; I do not know if these views generally express negativity as much
>as concern and perhaps some frustration. If people did not care and said
>nothing I feel that would be very negative. It takes all of us to influence
>the form Csound is taking. This has been, and still is, a crucial period in
>its evolution. We all know how much the programmers contribute and that we
>would be lost without them. Their freely offered efforts have enabled me to
>compose in ways I have always dreamed of. I think most of us are getting
>very anxious to be able to implement their amazing new contributions into
>our compositional processes.
>
>As we can see, everyone works with Csound in different ways. To be able to
>provide everyone with access to version 5, in a way that is comfortable to
>each, is going to require some discussion and for each of us to learn, adapt
>and expand our understanding.
>
>The bottom line is we are all doing it for the music.
>
>You are right, Joseph. It has perhaps not been said enough;
>
>Many thanks to all the developers and contributors!! You guys are awesome!
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joseph Sanger [mailto:joseph.sanger@virgin.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:01 AM
>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I have been following this debate and I felt I should log my views. I
>> am quite new to Csound, programming and digital music generally and
>> come from a "live" background. I used MacCsound for a while and have
>> in the last couple of weeks begun to use Csound5 on my G4 powerbook.
>> I have had very few problems and found both the forums and this list
>> to be a great help.
>>
>> I felt there had been a lot of negative views expressed and I wish to
>> slightly redress that balance, and recognise the hard work which so
>> many people put in to this project.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> On 27 Apr 2006, at 05:15, Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Bruce,
>> >
>> > As far as I can see, steps are being taken towards remedying problems
>> > that you and others have reported.  They might not get addressed as
>> > quickly as one (or most people here it seems) wants, but they *are*
>> > taken seriously by the developers.  The installers, which are
>> > completely new since Csound5, have gotten better due to users
>> > reporting problems, and do more to setup Csound environment variables
>> > than Csound4 ever did. They're not perfect, but they're getting
>> > better, and a lot of that is due to user feedback.  Users voiced
>> > concern that an interface like Winsound doesn't exist and very quickly
>> > John put together a new one for Csound5 and now it seems like Istvan
>> > is putting together something as well.  These should only further
>> > simplify setup and usage.
>> >
>> > I think that Csound is most certainly *not* an exclusive programmer
>> > club, and I find such language divisive and baseless.  I have yet to
>> > hear a developer here say "you need to be a programmer to do xxx" or
>> > anything to the effect of excluding those who are not developers.
>> > They might make some assumptions sometimes about what people either
>> > know or are willing to do to get things going, but never have I read
>> > an intentional sleight against non-programmers.  On the contrary, all
>> > I've ever seen are gestures to help those who have had questions and
>> > problems, whether technical or musical.
>> >
>> > If you feel that there are issues that would positively affect yours
>> > and others user experience, voice your concerns (as you have) but
>> > please do so without the negative tone.  It's not very rewarding for
>> > anyone here--developer or user--to read messages with strong
>> > inflamatory language and imperative declamations, and your point will
>> > still be heard without it.  It might even make the work of fixing the
>> > bugs and fielding requests more enjoyable.
>> >
>> > By the way: when you say "Enough said - give the musicians a version
>> > that runs easily and smoothly where all of the functions are
>> > available.", just to let you know, the people who are developing
>> > Csound are musicians too, and as far as I know, would rather spend
>> > time working on their music than on Csound (and yet they are still
>> > kind enough to give their time to it).  For them and others not in
>> > your situation, Csound5 *does* run easily and smoothly and has all the
>> > functions available.  It's obvious that isn't the case yet for
>> > everyone, but it doesn't mean that nothing is being done or that there
>> > is a conspiracy against users in some way.
>> >
>> > steven
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 4/26/06, Bruce Lamb  wrote:
>> >> This is exactly how I use Csound - WinXoundPro and Render - Real
>> >> simple yet
>> >> very effective because I can focus on just the Csound code. All of
>> >> the
>> >> postings on this issue is exactly what I was complaining about 2
>> >> months ago
>> >> on this list.
>> >>
>> >> I can't even get Csound 5 installed on my computer - why?? Why do
>> >> I have to
>> >> deal with Python error messages? Why do I even have to deal with
>> >> Python? I
>> >> am not a programmer, nor do I have the time to be a programmer.
>> >> There should
>> >> be no reason that Csound 5 can not just run right out of the box
>> >> like Csound
>> >> 4.23.
>> >>
>> >> It is asking a lot for people to learn the Csound code and system
>> >> already,
>> >> but now it is just a pain in the ass getting it installed on a
>> >> computer. It
>> >> might has well be one of those programmer versions of Linux that
>> >> only a
>> >> programmer could install and work with.
>> >>
>> >> I agree with the remarks that Csound now feels like some exclusive
>> >> programmer club with the lay people like me being pushed out of
>> >> the way. I
>> >> have been very turned off by this and am thinking of switching to
>> >> max where
>> >> I can get ease of use by paying for it.
>> >>
>> >> I think that this is a serious issue when Dr. Boulanger who wrote
>> >> the "Book"
>> >> on Csound is saying that people he knows are migrating to other
>> >> systems. It
>> >> needs to be addressed otherwise Csound could actually become a
>> >> shunned piece
>> >> of software due to needless and pointless difficulty in using it.
>> >>
>> >> I would be willing to pay money for Csound if I knew that it would
>> >> work
>> >> correctly right away without any problems.
>> >>
>> >> Enough said - give the musicians a version that runs easily and
>> >> smoothly
>> >> were all of the functions are available.
>> >>
>> >> B.
>> >>
>> >>> From: Michael Rhoades 
>> >>> Reply-To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> >>> To: 
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>> >>> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:48:30 -0400
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Mike.
>> >>>
>> >>> I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so
>> >>> my answer
>> >>> is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using
>> >>> only the
>> >>> orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my
>> >>> sco using
>> >>> Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like
>> >>> about Winsound
>> >>> is that if none of the file names have changed since the last
>> >>> render, I use
>> >>> a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not
>> >>> need or
>> >>> want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a
>> >>> really
>> >>> quick
>> >>> way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the
>> >>> better.
>> >>> Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do
>> >>> change a file
>> >>> name it is all right there in the main window.
>> >>>
>> >>> CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there
>> >>> seem to be
>> >>> too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive,
>> >>> transparent way. It
>> >>> looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import
>> >>> files. Am I
>> >>> missing something?
>> >>>
>> >>> So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can
>> >>> put all
>> >>> my
>> >>> attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a
>> >>> matter of
>> >>> maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as
>> >>> composers.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks for listening,
>> >>>
>> >>> Michael
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me,
>> >>>> every time I
>> >>> have
>> >>>> tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does
>> >>>> Winsound do
>> >>> that
>> >>>> CsoundVST does not do?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regards,
>> >>>> Mike
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
>> >>>>> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
>> >>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous
>> >>>>> of me but
>> >>> I
>> >>>>> want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get
>> >>>>> to happen
>> >>> so
>> >>>>> far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same
>> >>> functionality
>> >>>>> as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of
>> >>>>> the new
>> >>>>> features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional
>> >>> processes.
>> >>>>> That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5
>> >>> happen. I
>> >>>>> am sure it is an enormous task.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>> From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
>> >>>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
>> >>>>>> frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel
>> >>>>>> et al
>> >>>>>> (Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by
>> >>>>>> simply
>> >>>>>> clicking on a few key elements.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
>> >>>>>> encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but
>> >>>>>> that is
>> >>>>>> why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
>> >>>>>> experiencing some growing pains - since people are just
>> >>>>>> beginning to
>> >>>>>> realize the potential of this elegant design.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5
>> >>>>>> support, all
>> >>>>>> of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be
>> >>>>>> intrigued by
>> >>>>>> Csound once again.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to
>> >>>>>> film
>> >>> use
>> >>>>>> specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound
>> >>>>>> exists
>> >>>>>> and it "just works".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> More of this is required if the Csound community wants to
>> >>>>>> maintain
>> >>> it's
>> >>>>>> draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers
>> >>>>>> looking for
>> >>>>>> something fun to do in their downtime.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> $0.02, well spent.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -David
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in
>> >>>>>>> comparison to
>> >>>>>>> earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no
>> >>>>>>> problem in
>> >>>>>>> upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user
>> >>>>>>> by any
>> >>>>>>> means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can
>> >>>>>>> incorporate
>> >>>>>>> your views into future releases?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Rory.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Michael Rhoades wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Hello All.
>> >>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html,
>> >>>>>>>> frames
>> >>>>>>>> version
>> >>>>>>>> of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version
>> >>>>>>>> 4.23f. I
>> >>> have
>> >>>>>>>> been
>> >>>>>>>> searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as
>> >>>>>>>> the online
>> >>>>>>>> version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to
>> >>>>>>>> find a
>> >>>>>>>> copy of it
>> >>>>>>>> in my backups.
>> >>>>>>>> Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
>> >>>>>>>> I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I
>> >>>>>>>> intend no
>> >>>>>>>> disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on
>> >>>>>>>> Csound 5,
>> >>>>>>>> but I
>> >>>>>>>> am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
>> >>>>>>>> predecessors
>> >>>>>>>> appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its
>> >>>>>>>> utter
>> >>>>>>>> simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I
>> >>>>>>>> would
>> >>>>>>>> liked to
>> >>>>>>>> have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been
>> >>>>>>>> optimized
>> >>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>> speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
>> >>>>>>>> Admittedly,
>> >>>>>>>> I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with
>> >>>>>>>> Csound
>> >>> 5.
>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for letting me vent.
>> >>>>>>>> Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3
>> >>>>>>>> page. I
>> >>>>>>>> would
>> >>>>>>>> love to hear any comments...
>> >>>>>>>> Michael
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> >>> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> >>
>> >> _________________________________________________________________
>> >> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
>> >> it's FREE!
>> >> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> >> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> >>
>> > --
>> > Send bugs reports to this list.
>> > To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>>
>> Joseph Sanger
>>
>> joseph.sanger@virgin.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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