The first article you cite is particularly interesting and readable.

Art Hunkins

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Share" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual


> I think the problem comes down to one of usability. This seems to be an
> issue for many open-source projects.
>
> I came across this site a while ago:
>
> http://openusability.org/index.php
>
> Perhaps Csound5 should consider registering?
>
>
> People may also be interested in some of the following articles:
>
> http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue9_4/levesque/
>
> http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
>
> Art Hunkins wrote:
> > I very much agree with Michael here. As a matter of fact, I *usually*
agree
> > with Michael and have much appreciated all of his recent contributions
to
> > this list.
> >
> > I see our current situation this way: developers of Csound5 have been
> > working away, developing, for some time now, and have gotten Csound5
pretty
> > much working to their satisfaction. Csound5 is now "out there" - offered
to
> > the average user.
> >
> > While all this has been going on, many an average user has held back,
> > somewhat fearful, either still working with older Csounds, or leaving
for
> > other pastures (e.g., max).
> >
> > We now need for the average Csound user to "catch up." We also need
> > developers to be helpful and responsive to the average user's needs.
What is
> > OK for the developer (and hmis/her work style) is not user-friendly for
the
> > average user. *And the average user can do nothing about this on his/her
> > own.* Developers must now listen to average user "complaints" and work
to
> > make Csound5 as simple to use for us average, well-intentioned (and
> > technology simple-minded) musicians as possible.
> >
> > One followup question: Are the days of having a basic Csound(5)
executable
> > in a single file (such as flcsound, csoundAV and Winsound) gone forever?
> > (I've a feeling the answer is yes, but I'd like to hear a definitive
reply
> > and a simple rationale.)
> >
> > Art Hunkins
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >
> >
> > As for me; I do not know if these views generally express negativity as
much
> > as concern and perhaps some frustration. If people did not care and said
> > nothing I feel that would be very negative. It takes all of us to
influence
> > the form Csound is taking. This has been, and still is, a crucial period
in
> > its evolution. We all know how much the programmers contribute and that
we
> > would be lost without them. Their freely offered efforts have enabled me
to
> > compose in ways I have always dreamed of. I think most of us are getting
> > very anxious to be able to implement their amazing new contributions
into
> > our compositional processes.
> >
> > As we can see, everyone works with Csound in different ways. To be able
to
> > provide everyone with access to version 5, in a way that is comfortable
to
> > each, is going to require some discussion and for each of us to learn,
adapt
> > and expand our understanding.
> >
> > The bottom line is we are all doing it for the music.
> >
> > You are right, Joseph. It has perhaps not been said enough;
> >
> > Many thanks to all the developers and contributors!! You guys are
awesome!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Joseph Sanger [mailto:joseph.sanger@virgin.net]
> >>Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:01 AM
> >>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>
> >>Hi there,
> >>
> >>I have been following this debate and I felt I should log my views. I
> >>am quite new to Csound, programming and digital music generally and
> >>come from a "live" background. I used MacCsound for a while and have
> >>in the last couple of weeks begun to use Csound5 on my G4 powerbook.
> >>I have had very few problems and found both the forums and this list
> >>to be a great help.
> >>
> >>I felt there had been a lot of negative views expressed and I wish to
> >>slightly redress that balance, and recognise the hard work which so
> >>many people put in to this project.
> >>
> >>Joe
> >>
> >>On 27 Apr 2006, at 05:15, Steven Yi wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hi Bruce,
> >>>
> >>>As far as I can see, steps are being taken towards remedying problems
> >>>that you and others have reported.  They might not get addressed as
> >>>quickly as one (or most people here it seems) wants, but they *are*
> >>>taken seriously by the developers.  The installers, which are
> >>>completely new since Csound5, have gotten better due to users
> >>>reporting problems, and do more to setup Csound environment variables
> >>>than Csound4 ever did. They're not perfect, but they're getting
> >>>better, and a lot of that is due to user feedback.  Users voiced
> >>>concern that an interface like Winsound doesn't exist and very quickly
> >>>John put together a new one for Csound5 and now it seems like Istvan
> >>>is putting together something as well.  These should only further
> >>>simplify setup and usage.
> >>>
> >>>I think that Csound is most certainly *not* an exclusive programmer
> >>>club, and I find such language divisive and baseless.  I have yet to
> >>>hear a developer here say "you need to be a programmer to do xxx" or
> >>>anything to the effect of excluding those who are not developers.
> >>>They might make some assumptions sometimes about what people either
> >>>know or are willing to do to get things going, but never have I read
> >>>an intentional sleight against non-programmers.  On the contrary, all
> >>>I've ever seen are gestures to help those who have had questions and
> >>>problems, whether technical or musical.
> >>>
> >>>If you feel that there are issues that would positively affect yours
> >>>and others user experience, voice your concerns (as you have) but
> >>>please do so without the negative tone.  It's not very rewarding for
> >>>anyone here--developer or user--to read messages with strong
> >>>inflamatory language and imperative declamations, and your point will
> >>>still be heard without it.  It might even make the work of fixing the
> >>>bugs and fielding requests more enjoyable.
> >>>
> >>>By the way: when you say "Enough said - give the musicians a version
> >>>that runs easily and smoothly where all of the functions are
> >>>available.", just to let you know, the people who are developing
> >>>Csound are musicians too, and as far as I know, would rather spend
> >>>time working on their music than on Csound (and yet they are still
> >>>kind enough to give their time to it).  For them and others not in
> >>>your situation, Csound5 *does* run easily and smoothly and has all the
> >>>functions available.  It's obvious that isn't the case yet for
> >>>everyone, but it doesn't mean that nothing is being done or that there
> >>>is a conspiracy against users in some way.
> >>>
> >>>steven
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On 4/26/06, Bruce Lamb  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>This is exactly how I use Csound - WinXoundPro and Render - Real
> >>>>simple yet
> >>>>very effective because I can focus on just the Csound code. All of
> >>>>the
> >>>>postings on this issue is exactly what I was complaining about 2
> >>>>months ago
> >>>>on this list.
> >>>>
> >>>>I can't even get Csound 5 installed on my computer - why?? Why do
> >>>>I have to
> >>>>deal with Python error messages? Why do I even have to deal with
> >>>>Python? I
> >>>>am not a programmer, nor do I have the time to be a programmer.
> >>>>There should
> >>>>be no reason that Csound 5 can not just run right out of the box
> >>>>like Csound
> >>>>4.23.
> >>>>
> >>>>It is asking a lot for people to learn the Csound code and system
> >>>>already,
> >>>>but now it is just a pain in the ass getting it installed on a
> >>>>computer. It
> >>>>might has well be one of those programmer versions of Linux that
> >>>>only a
> >>>>programmer could install and work with.
> >>>>
> >>>>I agree with the remarks that Csound now feels like some exclusive
> >>>>programmer club with the lay people like me being pushed out of
> >>>>the way. I
> >>>>have been very turned off by this and am thinking of switching to
> >>>>max where
> >>>>I can get ease of use by paying for it.
> >>>>
> >>>>I think that this is a serious issue when Dr. Boulanger who wrote
> >>>>the "Book"
> >>>>on Csound is saying that people he knows are migrating to other
> >>>>systems. It
> >>>>needs to be addressed otherwise Csound could actually become a
> >>>>shunned piece
> >>>>of software due to needless and pointless difficulty in using it.
> >>>>
> >>>>I would be willing to pay money for Csound if I knew that it would
> >>>>work
> >>>>correctly right away without any problems.
> >>>>
> >>>>Enough said - give the musicians a version that runs easily and
> >>>>smoothly
> >>>>were all of the functions are available.
> >>>>
> >>>>B.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>From: Michael Rhoades 
> >>>>>Reply-To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>>To: 
> >>>>>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>>>>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:48:30 -0400
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Hi Mike.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so
> >>>>>my answer
> >>>>>is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using
> >>>>>only the
> >>>>>orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my
> >>>>>sco using
> >>>>>Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like
> >>>>>about Winsound
> >>>>>is that if none of the file names have changed since the last
> >>>>>render, I use
> >>>>>a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not
> >>>>>need or
> >>>>>want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a
> >>>>>really
> >>>>>quick
> >>>>>way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the
> >>>>>better.
> >>>>>Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do
> >>>>>change a file
> >>>>>name it is all right there in the main window.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there
> >>>>>seem to be
> >>>>>too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive,
> >>>>>transparent way. It
> >>>>>looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import
> >>>>>files. Am I
> >>>>>missing something?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can
> >>>>>put all
> >>>>>my
> >>>>>attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a
> >>>>>matter of
> >>>>>maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as
> >>>>>composers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Thanks for listening,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Michael
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me,
> >>>>>>every time I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>have
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does
> >>>>>>Winsound do
> >>>>>
> >>>>>that
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>CsoundVST does not do?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Regards,
> >>>>>>Mike
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
> >>>>>>>Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
> >>>>>>>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous
> >>>>>>>of me but
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get
> >>>>>>>to happen
> >>>>>
> >>>>>so
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same
> >>>>>
> >>>>>functionality
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of
> >>>>>>>the new
> >>>>>>>features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional
> >>>>>
> >>>>>processes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5
> >>>>>
> >>>>>happen. I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>am sure it is an enormous task.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
> >>>>>>>>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
> >>>>>>>>frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel
> >>>>>>>>et al
> >>>>>>>>(Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by
> >>>>>>>>simply
> >>>>>>>>clicking on a few key elements.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
> >>>>>>>>encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but
> >>>>>>>>that is
> >>>>>>>>why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
> >>>>>>>>experiencing some growing pains - since people are just
> >>>>>>>>beginning to
> >>>>>>>>realize the potential of this elegant design.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5
> >>>>>>>>support, all
> >>>>>>>>of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be
> >>>>>>>>intrigued by
> >>>>>>>>Csound once again.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to
> >>>>>>>>film
> >>>>>
> >>>>>use
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound
> >>>>>>>>exists
> >>>>>>>>and it "just works".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>More of this is required if the Csound community wants to
> >>>>>>>>maintain
> >>>>>
> >>>>>it's
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers
> >>>>>>>>looking for
> >>>>>>>>something fun to do in their downtime.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>$0.02, well spent.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>-David
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in
> >>>>>>>>>comparison to
> >>>>>>>>>earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no
> >>>>>>>>>problem in
> >>>>>>>>>upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user
> >>>>>>>>>by any
> >>>>>>>>>means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can
> >>>>>>>>>incorporate
> >>>>>>>>>your views into future releases?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Rory.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Michael Rhoades wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Hello All.
> >>>>>>>>>>Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html,
> >>>>>>>>>>frames
> >>>>>>>>>>version
> >>>>>>>>>>of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version
> >>>>>>>>>>4.23f. I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>have
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>been
> >>>>>>>>>>searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as
> >>>>>>>>>>the online
> >>>>>>>>>>version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to
> >>>>>>>>>>find a
> >>>>>>>>>>copy of it
> >>>>>>>>>>in my backups.
> >>>>>>>>>>Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
> >>>>>>>>>>I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I
> >>>>>>>>>>intend no
> >>>>>>>>>>disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on
> >>>>>>>>>>Csound 5,
> >>>>>>>>>>but I
> >>>>>>>>>>am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
> >>>>>>>>>>predecessors
> >>>>>>>>>>appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its
> >>>>>>>>>>utter
> >>>>>>>>>>simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I
> >>>>>>>>>>would
> >>>>>>>>>>liked to
> >>>>>>>>>>have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been
> >>>>>>>>>>optimized
> >>>>>>>>>>for
> >>>>>>>>>>speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
> >>>>>>>>>>Admittedly,
> >>>>>>>>>>I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with
> >>>>>>>>>>Csound
> >>>>>
> >>>>>5.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Thanks for letting me vent.
> >>>>>>>>>>Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3
> >>>>>>>>>>page. I
> >>>>>>>>>>would
> >>>>>>>>>>love to hear any comments...
> >>>>>>>>>>Michael
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>Send bugs reports to this list.
> >>>>>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>
> >>>>_________________________________________________________________
> >>>>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
> >>>>it's FREE!
> >>>>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>Send bugs reports to this list.
> >>>>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Send bugs reports to this list.
> >>>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>
> >>-----------------------------------
> >>
> >>Joseph Sanger
> >>
> >>joseph.sanger@virgin.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
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> >>
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