I very much agree with Michael here. As a matter of fact, I *usually* agree
with Michael and have much appreciated all of his recent contributions to
this list.

I see our current situation this way: developers of Csound5 have been
working away, developing, for some time now, and have gotten Csound5 pretty
much working to their satisfaction. Csound5 is now "out there" - offered to
the average user.

While all this has been going on, many an average user has held back,
somewhat fearful, either still working with older Csounds, or leaving for
other pastures (e.g., max).

We now need for the average Csound user to "catch up." We also need
developers to be helpful and responsive to the average user's needs. What is
OK for the developer (and hmis/her work style) is not user-friendly for the
average user. *And the average user can do nothing about this on his/her
own.* Developers must now listen to average user "complaints" and work to
make Csound5 as simple to use for us average, well-intentioned (and
technology simple-minded) musicians as possible.

One followup question: Are the days of having a basic Csound(5) executable
in a single file (such as flcsound, csoundAV and Winsound) gone forever?
(I've a feeling the answer is yes, but I'd like to hear a definitive reply
and a simple rationale.)

Art Hunkins

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual


As for me; I do not know if these views generally express negativity as much
as concern and perhaps some frustration. If people did not care and said
nothing I feel that would be very negative. It takes all of us to influence
the form Csound is taking. This has been, and still is, a crucial period in
its evolution. We all know how much the programmers contribute and that we
would be lost without them. Their freely offered efforts have enabled me to
compose in ways I have always dreamed of. I think most of us are getting
very anxious to be able to implement their amazing new contributions into
our compositional processes.

As we can see, everyone works with Csound in different ways. To be able to
provide everyone with access to version 5, in a way that is comfortable to
each, is going to require some discussion and for each of us to learn, adapt
and expand our understanding.

The bottom line is we are all doing it for the music.

You are right, Joseph. It has perhaps not been said enough;

Many thanks to all the developers and contributors!! You guys are awesome!



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Sanger [mailto:joseph.sanger@virgin.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:01 AM
> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>
> Hi there,
>
> I have been following this debate and I felt I should log my views. I
> am quite new to Csound, programming and digital music generally and
> come from a "live" background. I used MacCsound for a while and have
> in the last couple of weeks begun to use Csound5 on my G4 powerbook.
> I have had very few problems and found both the forums and this list
> to be a great help.
>
> I felt there had been a lot of negative views expressed and I wish to
> slightly redress that balance, and recognise the hard work which so
> many people put in to this project.
>
> Joe
>
> On 27 Apr 2006, at 05:15, Steven Yi wrote:
>
> > Hi Bruce,
> >
> > As far as I can see, steps are being taken towards remedying problems
> > that you and others have reported.  They might not get addressed as
> > quickly as one (or most people here it seems) wants, but they *are*
> > taken seriously by the developers.  The installers, which are
> > completely new since Csound5, have gotten better due to users
> > reporting problems, and do more to setup Csound environment variables
> > than Csound4 ever did. They're not perfect, but they're getting
> > better, and a lot of that is due to user feedback.  Users voiced
> > concern that an interface like Winsound doesn't exist and very quickly
> > John put together a new one for Csound5 and now it seems like Istvan
> > is putting together something as well.  These should only further
> > simplify setup and usage.
> >
> > I think that Csound is most certainly *not* an exclusive programmer
> > club, and I find such language divisive and baseless.  I have yet to
> > hear a developer here say "you need to be a programmer to do xxx" or
> > anything to the effect of excluding those who are not developers.
> > They might make some assumptions sometimes about what people either
> > know or are willing to do to get things going, but never have I read
> > an intentional sleight against non-programmers.  On the contrary, all
> > I've ever seen are gestures to help those who have had questions and
> > problems, whether technical or musical.
> >
> > If you feel that there are issues that would positively affect yours
> > and others user experience, voice your concerns (as you have) but
> > please do so without the negative tone.  It's not very rewarding for
> > anyone here--developer or user--to read messages with strong
> > inflamatory language and imperative declamations, and your point will
> > still be heard without it.  It might even make the work of fixing the
> > bugs and fielding requests more enjoyable.
> >
> > By the way: when you say "Enough said - give the musicians a version
> > that runs easily and smoothly where all of the functions are
> > available.", just to let you know, the people who are developing
> > Csound are musicians too, and as far as I know, would rather spend
> > time working on their music than on Csound (and yet they are still
> > kind enough to give their time to it).  For them and others not in
> > your situation, Csound5 *does* run easily and smoothly and has all the
> > functions available.  It's obvious that isn't the case yet for
> > everyone, but it doesn't mean that nothing is being done or that there
> > is a conspiracy against users in some way.
> >
> > steven
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/26/06, Bruce Lamb  wrote:
> >> This is exactly how I use Csound - WinXoundPro and Render - Real
> >> simple yet
> >> very effective because I can focus on just the Csound code. All of
> >> the
> >> postings on this issue is exactly what I was complaining about 2
> >> months ago
> >> on this list.
> >>
> >> I can't even get Csound 5 installed on my computer - why?? Why do
> >> I have to
> >> deal with Python error messages? Why do I even have to deal with
> >> Python? I
> >> am not a programmer, nor do I have the time to be a programmer.
> >> There should
> >> be no reason that Csound 5 can not just run right out of the box
> >> like Csound
> >> 4.23.
> >>
> >> It is asking a lot for people to learn the Csound code and system
> >> already,
> >> but now it is just a pain in the ass getting it installed on a
> >> computer. It
> >> might has well be one of those programmer versions of Linux that
> >> only a
> >> programmer could install and work with.
> >>
> >> I agree with the remarks that Csound now feels like some exclusive
> >> programmer club with the lay people like me being pushed out of
> >> the way. I
> >> have been very turned off by this and am thinking of switching to
> >> max where
> >> I can get ease of use by paying for it.
> >>
> >> I think that this is a serious issue when Dr. Boulanger who wrote
> >> the "Book"
> >> on Csound is saying that people he knows are migrating to other
> >> systems. It
> >> needs to be addressed otherwise Csound could actually become a
> >> shunned piece
> >> of software due to needless and pointless difficulty in using it.
> >>
> >> I would be willing to pay money for Csound if I knew that it would
> >> work
> >> correctly right away without any problems.
> >>
> >> Enough said - give the musicians a version that runs easily and
> >> smoothly
> >> were all of the functions are available.
> >>
> >> B.
> >>
> >>> From: Michael Rhoades 
> >>> Reply-To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>> To: 
> >>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:48:30 -0400
> >>>
> >>> Hi Mike.
> >>>
> >>> I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so
> >>> my answer
> >>> is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using
> >>> only the
> >>> orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my
> >>> sco using
> >>> Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like
> >>> about Winsound
> >>> is that if none of the file names have changed since the last
> >>> render, I use
> >>> a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not
> >>> need or
> >>> want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a
> >>> really
> >>> quick
> >>> way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the
> >>> better.
> >>> Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do
> >>> change a file
> >>> name it is all right there in the main window.
> >>>
> >>> CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there
> >>> seem to be
> >>> too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive,
> >>> transparent way. It
> >>> looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import
> >>> files. Am I
> >>> missing something?
> >>>
> >>> So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can
> >>> put all
> >>> my
> >>> attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a
> >>> matter of
> >>> maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as
> >>> composers.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for listening,
> >>>
> >>> Michael
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me,
> >>>> every time I
> >>> have
> >>>> tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does
> >>>> Winsound do
> >>> that
> >>>> CsoundVST does not do?
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Mike
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
> >>>>> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
> >>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous
> >>>>> of me but
> >>> I
> >>>>> want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get
> >>>>> to happen
> >>> so
> >>>>> far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same
> >>> functionality
> >>>>> as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of
> >>>>> the new
> >>>>> features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional
> >>> processes.
> >>>>> That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5
> >>> happen. I
> >>>>> am sure it is an enormous task.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
> >>>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
> >>>>>> frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel
> >>>>>> et al
> >>>>>> (Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by
> >>>>>> simply
> >>>>>> clicking on a few key elements.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
> >>>>>> encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but
> >>>>>> that is
> >>>>>> why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
> >>>>>> experiencing some growing pains - since people are just
> >>>>>> beginning to
> >>>>>> realize the potential of this elegant design.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5
> >>>>>> support, all
> >>>>>> of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be
> >>>>>> intrigued by
> >>>>>> Csound once again.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to
> >>>>>> film
> >>> use
> >>>>>> specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound
> >>>>>> exists
> >>>>>> and it "just works".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> More of this is required if the Csound community wants to
> >>>>>> maintain
> >>> it's
> >>>>>> draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers
> >>>>>> looking for
> >>>>>> something fun to do in their downtime.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> $0.02, well spent.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -David
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in
> >>>>>>> comparison to
> >>>>>>> earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no
> >>>>>>> problem in
> >>>>>>> upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user
> >>>>>>> by any
> >>>>>>> means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can
> >>>>>>> incorporate
> >>>>>>> your views into future releases?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rory.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Michael Rhoades wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hello All.
> >>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html,
> >>>>>>>> frames
> >>>>>>>> version
> >>>>>>>> of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version
> >>>>>>>> 4.23f. I
> >>> have
> >>>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>>> searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as
> >>>>>>>> the online
> >>>>>>>> version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to
> >>>>>>>> find a
> >>>>>>>> copy of it
> >>>>>>>> in my backups.
> >>>>>>>> Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
> >>>>>>>> I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I
> >>>>>>>> intend no
> >>>>>>>> disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on
> >>>>>>>> Csound 5,
> >>>>>>>> but I
> >>>>>>>> am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
> >>>>>>>> predecessors
> >>>>>>>> appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its
> >>>>>>>> utter
> >>>>>>>> simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I
> >>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>> liked to
> >>>>>>>> have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been
> >>>>>>>> optimized
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
> >>>>>>>> Admittedly,
> >>>>>>>> I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with
> >>>>>>>> Csound
> >>> 5.
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for letting me vent.
> >>>>>>>> Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3
> >>>>>>>> page. I
> >>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>> love to hear any comments...
> >>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Send bugs reports to this list.
> >>> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
> >> it's FREE!
> >> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> >>
> >> --
> >> Send bugs reports to this list.
> >> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>
> > --
> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> > To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> Joseph Sanger
>
> joseph.sanger@virgin.net
>
>
>
>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>
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--
Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk

I think the problem comes down to one of usability. This seems to be an 
issue for many open-source projects.

I came across this site a while ago:

http://openusability.org/index.php

Perhaps Csound5 should consider registering?


People may also be interested in some of the following articles:

http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue9_4/levesque/

http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html


Cheers,

Chris

Art Hunkins wrote:
> I very much agree with Michael here. As a matter of fact, I *usually* agree
> with Michael and have much appreciated all of his recent contributions to
> this list.
> 
> I see our current situation this way: developers of Csound5 have been
> working away, developing, for some time now, and have gotten Csound5 pretty
> much working to their satisfaction. Csound5 is now "out there" - offered to
> the average user.
> 
> While all this has been going on, many an average user has held back,
> somewhat fearful, either still working with older Csounds, or leaving for
> other pastures (e.g., max).
> 
> We now need for the average Csound user to "catch up." We also need
> developers to be helpful and responsive to the average user's needs. What is
> OK for the developer (and hmis/her work style) is not user-friendly for the
> average user. *And the average user can do nothing about this on his/her
> own.* Developers must now listen to average user "complaints" and work to
> make Csound5 as simple to use for us average, well-intentioned (and
> technology simple-minded) musicians as possible.
> 
> One followup question: Are the days of having a basic Csound(5) executable
> in a single file (such as flcsound, csoundAV and Winsound) gone forever?
> (I've a feeling the answer is yes, but I'd like to hear a definitive reply
> and a simple rationale.)
> 
> Art Hunkins
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> 
> 
> As for me; I do not know if these views generally express negativity as much
> as concern and perhaps some frustration. If people did not care and said
> nothing I feel that would be very negative. It takes all of us to influence
> the form Csound is taking. This has been, and still is, a crucial period in
> its evolution. We all know how much the programmers contribute and that we
> would be lost without them. Their freely offered efforts have enabled me to
> compose in ways I have always dreamed of. I think most of us are getting
> very anxious to be able to implement their amazing new contributions into
> our compositional processes.
> 
> As we can see, everyone works with Csound in different ways. To be able to
> provide everyone with access to version 5, in a way that is comfortable to
> each, is going to require some discussion and for each of us to learn, adapt
> and expand our understanding.
> 
> The bottom line is we are all doing it for the music.
> 
> You are right, Joseph. It has perhaps not been said enough;
> 
> Many thanks to all the developers and contributors!! You guys are awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Joseph Sanger [mailto:joseph.sanger@virgin.net]
>>Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:01 AM
>>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>
>>Hi there,
>>
>>I have been following this debate and I felt I should log my views. I
>>am quite new to Csound, programming and digital music generally and
>>come from a "live" background. I used MacCsound for a while and have
>>in the last couple of weeks begun to use Csound5 on my G4 powerbook.
>>I have had very few problems and found both the forums and this list
>>to be a great help.
>>
>>I felt there had been a lot of negative views expressed and I wish to
>>slightly redress that balance, and recognise the hard work which so
>>many people put in to this project.
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>On 27 Apr 2006, at 05:15, Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Bruce,
>>>
>>>As far as I can see, steps are being taken towards remedying problems
>>>that you and others have reported.  They might not get addressed as
>>>quickly as one (or most people here it seems) wants, but they *are*
>>>taken seriously by the developers.  The installers, which are
>>>completely new since Csound5, have gotten better due to users
>>>reporting problems, and do more to setup Csound environment variables
>>>than Csound4 ever did. They're not perfect, but they're getting
>>>better, and a lot of that is due to user feedback.  Users voiced
>>>concern that an interface like Winsound doesn't exist and very quickly
>>>John put together a new one for Csound5 and now it seems like Istvan
>>>is putting together something as well.  These should only further
>>>simplify setup and usage.
>>>
>>>I think that Csound is most certainly *not* an exclusive programmer
>>>club, and I find such language divisive and baseless.  I have yet to
>>>hear a developer here say "you need to be a programmer to do xxx" or
>>>anything to the effect of excluding those who are not developers.
>>>They might make some assumptions sometimes about what people either
>>>know or are willing to do to get things going, but never have I read
>>>an intentional sleight against non-programmers.  On the contrary, all
>>>I've ever seen are gestures to help those who have had questions and
>>>problems, whether technical or musical.
>>>
>>>If you feel that there are issues that would positively affect yours
>>>and others user experience, voice your concerns (as you have) but
>>>please do so without the negative tone.  It's not very rewarding for
>>>anyone here--developer or user--to read messages with strong
>>>inflamatory language and imperative declamations, and your point will
>>>still be heard without it.  It might even make the work of fixing the
>>>bugs and fielding requests more enjoyable.
>>>
>>>By the way: when you say "Enough said - give the musicians a version
>>>that runs easily and smoothly where all of the functions are
>>>available.", just to let you know, the people who are developing
>>>Csound are musicians too, and as far as I know, would rather spend
>>>time working on their music than on Csound (and yet they are still
>>>kind enough to give their time to it).  For them and others not in
>>>your situation, Csound5 *does* run easily and smoothly and has all the
>>>functions available.  It's obvious that isn't the case yet for
>>>everyone, but it doesn't mean that nothing is being done or that there
>>>is a conspiracy against users in some way.
>>>
>>>steven
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 4/26/06, Bruce Lamb  wrote:
>>>
>>>>This is exactly how I use Csound - WinXoundPro and Render - Real
>>>>simple yet
>>>>very effective because I can focus on just the Csound code. All of
>>>>the
>>>>postings on this issue is exactly what I was complaining about 2
>>>>months ago
>>>>on this list.
>>>>
>>>>I can't even get Csound 5 installed on my computer - why?? Why do
>>>>I have to
>>>>deal with Python error messages? Why do I even have to deal with
>>>>Python? I
>>>>am not a programmer, nor do I have the time to be a programmer.
>>>>There should
>>>>be no reason that Csound 5 can not just run right out of the box
>>>>like Csound
>>>>4.23.
>>>>
>>>>It is asking a lot for people to learn the Csound code and system
>>>>already,
>>>>but now it is just a pain in the ass getting it installed on a
>>>>computer. It
>>>>might has well be one of those programmer versions of Linux that
>>>>only a
>>>>programmer could install and work with.
>>>>
>>>>I agree with the remarks that Csound now feels like some exclusive
>>>>programmer club with the lay people like me being pushed out of
>>>>the way. I
>>>>have been very turned off by this and am thinking of switching to
>>>>max where
>>>>I can get ease of use by paying for it.
>>>>
>>>>I think that this is a serious issue when Dr. Boulanger who wrote
>>>>the "Book"
>>>>on Csound is saying that people he knows are migrating to other
>>>>systems. It
>>>>needs to be addressed otherwise Csound could actually become a
>>>>shunned piece
>>>>of software due to needless and pointless difficulty in using it.
>>>>
>>>>I would be willing to pay money for Csound if I knew that it would
>>>>work
>>>>correctly right away without any problems.
>>>>
>>>>Enough said - give the musicians a version that runs easily and
>>>>smoothly
>>>>were all of the functions are available.
>>>>
>>>>B.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Michael Rhoades 
>>>>>Reply-To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>>To: 
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>>>>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:48:30 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Mike.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so
>>>>>my answer
>>>>>is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using
>>>>>only the
>>>>>orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my
>>>>>sco using
>>>>>Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like
>>>>>about Winsound
>>>>>is that if none of the file names have changed since the last
>>>>>render, I use
>>>>>a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not
>>>>>need or
>>>>>want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a
>>>>>really
>>>>>quick
>>>>>way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the
>>>>>better.
>>>>>Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do
>>>>>change a file
>>>>>name it is all right there in the main window.
>>>>>
>>>>>CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there
>>>>>seem to be
>>>>>too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive,
>>>>>transparent way. It
>>>>>looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import
>>>>>files. Am I
>>>>>missing something?
>>>>>
>>>>>So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can
>>>>>put all
>>>>>my
>>>>>attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a
>>>>>matter of
>>>>>maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as
>>>>>composers.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for listening,
>>>>>
>>>>>Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me,
>>>>>>every time I
>>>>>
>>>>>have
>>>>>
>>>>>>tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does
>>>>>>Winsound do
>>>>>
>>>>>that
>>>>>
>>>>>>CsoundVST does not do?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
>>>>>>>Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
>>>>>>>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous
>>>>>>>of me but
>>>>>
>>>>>I
>>>>>
>>>>>>>want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get
>>>>>>>to happen
>>>>>
>>>>>so
>>>>>
>>>>>>>far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same
>>>>>
>>>>>functionality
>>>>>
>>>>>>>as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of
>>>>>>>the new
>>>>>>>features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional
>>>>>
>>>>>processes.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5
>>>>>
>>>>>happen. I
>>>>>
>>>>>>>am sure it is an enormous task.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
>>>>>>>>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
>>>>>>>>frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel
>>>>>>>>et al
>>>>>>>>(Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by
>>>>>>>>simply
>>>>>>>>clicking on a few key elements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
>>>>>>>>encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but
>>>>>>>>that is
>>>>>>>>why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
>>>>>>>>experiencing some growing pains - since people are just
>>>>>>>>beginning to
>>>>>>>>realize the potential of this elegant design.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5
>>>>>>>>support, all
>>>>>>>>of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be
>>>>>>>>intrigued by
>>>>>>>>Csound once again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to
>>>>>>>>film
>>>>>
>>>>>use
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound
>>>>>>>>exists
>>>>>>>>and it "just works".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>More of this is required if the Csound community wants to
>>>>>>>>maintain
>>>>>
>>>>>it's
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers
>>>>>>>>looking for
>>>>>>>>something fun to do in their downtime.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>$0.02, well spent.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in
>>>>>>>>>comparison to
>>>>>>>>>earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no
>>>>>>>>>problem in
>>>>>>>>>upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user
>>>>>>>>>by any
>>>>>>>>>means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can
>>>>>>>>>incorporate
>>>>>>>>>your views into future releases?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Rory.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Michael Rhoades wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Hello All.
>>>>>>>>>>Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html,
>>>>>>>>>>frames
>>>>>>>>>>version
>>>>>>>>>>of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version
>>>>>>>>>>4.23f. I
>>>>>
>>>>>have
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>been
>>>>>>>>>>searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as
>>>>>>>>>>the online
>>>>>>>>>>version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to
>>>>>>>>>>find a
>>>>>>>>>>copy of it
>>>>>>>>>>in my backups.
>>>>>>>>>>Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
>>>>>>>>>>I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I
>>>>>>>>>>intend no
>>>>>>>>>>disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on
>>>>>>>>>>Csound 5,
>>>>>>>>>>but I
>>>>>>>>>>am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
>>>>>>>>>>predecessors
>>>>>>>>>>appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its
>>>>>>>>>>utter
>>>>>>>>>>simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I
>>>>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>>liked to
>>>>>>>>>>have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been
>>>>>>>>>>optimized
>>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
>>>>>>>>>>Admittedly,
>>>>>>>>>>I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with
>>>>>>>>>>Csound
>>>>>
>>>>>5.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for letting me vent.
>>>>>>>>>>Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3
>>>>>>>>>>page. I
>>>>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>>love to hear any comments...
>>>>>>>>>>Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>
>>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
>>>>it's FREE!
>>>>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>
>>-----------------------------------
>>
>>Joseph Sanger
>>
>>joseph.sanger@virgin.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Send bugs reports to this list.
>>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
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Thanks very much for these links, Chris.

I am actually extremely concerned about usability on my computer and with
Csound and other open source software in general.  I even wrote an article
about three years ago that was published on Newsforge about usability and
open-source.  One of the major areas that I did research in as part of my
master's degree was Human-Computer Interaction.

I have made small pushes as a Csound developer for better usability for the
project as a whole.  I've asked for painless installers with no
post-configuration and simple GUI front-ends for every platform.  I think
the rest of the development team has been responsive to these issues.
Victor Lazzarini spent extra time developing a GUI launcher for Csound 5 on
OS X.  And the installers have come a long way in general.

Unfortunately, we are all very limited for time.  And I personally do most
of my development work on MacOS 9, so I cannot help with issues on the more
popular platforms.  What has been done with Csound 5 is to create a very
flexible architecture and API so that other developers can more easily
create the awesome GUIs that all of you crave.

Matt Ingalls is working on MacCsound 5.  I hope that Gabriel Maldonado is
working on CsoundAV 5 (but this task is MUCH more difficult).  Users who
want to help these things happen faster should consider sending some cash
their way.  (Matt does accept donations.  I think Steven accepts them for
blue as well :)

For my part on MacOS 9, I have made sure that Csound 5 "works out of the
box" as much as possible.  I have also included thorough introductory
documentation using non-technical language to describe Csound and what is
new in Csound 5.  I have included multiple simple examples and a short
tutorial on how to use the MacOS 9 interface.  I've included hyperlinks to
the reference manual and the mailing lists for getting more help.  There are
unfortunately still many bugs on this platform and the docs could be much
better, but I am just one person.  I regret that I also do not have the time
or knowledge to do the same for the more popular platforms.

Anyways, I found this quote from the last article you linked to very
interesting !!  :)

    "I don't have any genius definition of "good UI"; I'm not a UI expert.
    But it clearly doesn't mean snazzy graphics or featuritis. In the end
    when I think good UI I think of MacOS classic: clean, simple,
    consistent, productive. You focus on your work or play and the GUI isn't
    in the way."

Thanks for sharing.

Anthony Kozar
anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net


Chris Share wrote on 4/27/06 11:42 AM:

> I think the problem comes down to one of usability. This seems to be an
> issue for many open-source projects.
> 
> I came across this site a while ago:
> 
> http://openusability.org/index.php
> 
> Perhaps Csound5 should consider registering?
> 
> 
> People may also be interested in some of the following articles:
> 
> http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue9_4/levesque/
> 
> http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html