This is exactly how I use Csound - WinXoundPro and Render - Real simple yet 
very effective because I can focus on just the Csound code. All of the 
postings on this issue is exactly what I was complaining about 2 months ago 
on this list.

I can't even get Csound 5 installed on my computer - why?? Why do I have to 
deal with Python error messages? Why do I even have to deal with Python? I 
am not a programmer, nor do I have the time to be a programmer. There should 
be no reason that Csound 5 can not just run right out of the box like Csound 
4.23.

It is asking a lot for people to learn the Csound code and system already, 
but now it is just a pain in the ass getting it installed on a computer. It 
might has well be one of those programmer versions of Linux that only a 
programmer could install and work with.

I agree with the remarks that Csound now feels like some exclusive 
programmer club with the lay people like me being pushed out of the way. I 
have been very turned off by this and am thinking of switching to max where 
I can get ease of use by paying for it.

I think that this is a serious issue when Dr. Boulanger who wrote the "Book" 
on Csound is saying that people he knows are migrating to other systems. It 
needs to be addressed otherwise Csound could actually become a shunned piece 
of software due to needless and pointless difficulty in using it.

I would be willing to pay money for Csound if I knew that it would work 
correctly right away without any problems.

Enough said - give the musicians a version that runs easily and smoothly 
were all of the functions are available.

B.

>From: Michael Rhoades 
>Reply-To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:48:30 -0400
>
>Hi Mike.
>
>I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so my answer
>is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using only the
>orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my sco using
>Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like about Winsound
>is that if none of the file names have changed since the last render, I use
>a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not need or
>want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a really 
>quick
>way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the 
>better.
>Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do change a file
>name it is all right there in the main window.
>
>CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there seem to be
>too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive, transparent way. It
>looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import files. Am I
>missing something?
>
>So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can put all 
>my
>attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a matter of
>maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as composers.
>
>Thanks for listening,
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>
>On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
>
> > CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me, every time I 
>have
> > tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does Winsound do 
>that
> > CsoundVST does not do?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
> >> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
> >> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>
> >> I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous of me but 
>I
> >> want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get to happen 
>so
> >> far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same 
>functionality
> >> as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of the new
> >> features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional 
>processes.
> >> That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
> >>
> >> I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5 
>happen. I
> >> am sure it is an enormous task.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
> >>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>>
> >>> IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
> >>> frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel et al
> >>> (Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by simply
> >>> clicking on a few key elements.
> >>>
> >>> The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
> >>> encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but that is
> >>> why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
> >>> experiencing some growing pains - since people are just beginning to
> >>> realize the potential of this elegant design.
> >>>
> >>> If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5 support, all
> >>> of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be intrigued by
> >>> Csound once again.
> >>>
> >>> Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to film 
>use
> >>> specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound exists
> >>> and it "just works".
> >>>
> >>> More of this is required if the Csound community wants to maintain 
>it's
> >>> draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers looking for
> >>> something fun to do in their downtime.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> $0.02, well spent.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -David
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in comparison to
> >>>> earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no problem in
> >>>> upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user by any
> >>>> means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can incorporate
> >>>> your views into future releases?
> >>>>
> >>>> Rory.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael Rhoades wrote:
> >>>>> Hello All.
> >>>>> Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html, frames
> >>>>> version
> >>>>> of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version 4.23f. I 
>have
> >>>>> been
> >>>>> searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as the online
> >>>>> version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to find a
> >>>>> copy of it
> >>>>> in my backups.
> >>>>> Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
> >>>>> I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I intend no
> >>>>> disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on Csound 5,
> >>>>> but I
> >>>>> am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
> >>>>> predecessors
> >>>>> appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its utter
> >>>>> simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I would
> >>>>> liked to
> >>>>> have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been optimized
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
> >>>>> Admittedly,
> >>>>> I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with Csound 
>5.
> >>>>> Thanks for letting me vent.
> >>>>> Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3 page. I
> >>>>> would
> >>>>> love to hear any comments...
> >>>>> Michael
>
>--
>Send bugs reports to this list.
>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Hi there,

I have been following this debate and I felt I should log my views. I  
am quite new to Csound, programming and digital music generally and  
come from a "live" background. I used MacCsound for a while and have  
in the last couple of weeks begun to use Csound5 on my G4 powerbook.  
I have had very few problems and found both the forums and this list  
to be a great help.

I felt there had been a lot of negative views expressed and I wish to  
slightly redress that balance, and recognise the hard work which so  
many people put in to this project.

Joe

On 27 Apr 2006, at 05:15, Steven Yi wrote:

> Hi Bruce,
>
> As far as I can see, steps are being taken towards remedying problems
> that you and others have reported.  They might not get addressed as
> quickly as one (or most people here it seems) wants, but they *are*
> taken seriously by the developers.  The installers, which are
> completely new since Csound5, have gotten better due to users
> reporting problems, and do more to setup Csound environment variables
> than Csound4 ever did. They're not perfect, but they're getting
> better, and a lot of that is due to user feedback.  Users voiced
> concern that an interface like Winsound doesn't exist and very quickly
> John put together a new one for Csound5 and now it seems like Istvan
> is putting together something as well.  These should only further
> simplify setup and usage.
>
> I think that Csound is most certainly *not* an exclusive programmer
> club, and I find such language divisive and baseless.  I have yet to
> hear a developer here say "you need to be a programmer to do xxx" or
> anything to the effect of excluding those who are not developers.
> They might make some assumptions sometimes about what people either
> know or are willing to do to get things going, but never have I read
> an intentional sleight against non-programmers.  On the contrary, all
> I've ever seen are gestures to help those who have had questions and
> problems, whether technical or musical.
>
> If you feel that there are issues that would positively affect yours
> and others user experience, voice your concerns (as you have) but
> please do so without the negative tone.  It's not very rewarding for
> anyone here--developer or user--to read messages with strong
> inflamatory language and imperative declamations, and your point will
> still be heard without it.  It might even make the work of fixing the
> bugs and fielding requests more enjoyable.
>
> By the way: when you say "Enough said - give the musicians a version
> that runs easily and smoothly where all of the functions are
> available.", just to let you know, the people who are developing
> Csound are musicians too, and as far as I know, would rather spend
> time working on their music than on Csound (and yet they are still
> kind enough to give their time to it).  For them and others not in
> your situation, Csound5 *does* run easily and smoothly and has all the
> functions available.  It's obvious that isn't the case yet for
> everyone, but it doesn't mean that nothing is being done or that there
> is a conspiracy against users in some way.
>
> steven
>
>
>
> On 4/26/06, Bruce Lamb  wrote:
>> This is exactly how I use Csound - WinXoundPro and Render - Real  
>> simple yet
>> very effective because I can focus on just the Csound code. All of  
>> the
>> postings on this issue is exactly what I was complaining about 2  
>> months ago
>> on this list.
>>
>> I can't even get Csound 5 installed on my computer - why?? Why do  
>> I have to
>> deal with Python error messages? Why do I even have to deal with  
>> Python? I
>> am not a programmer, nor do I have the time to be a programmer.  
>> There should
>> be no reason that Csound 5 can not just run right out of the box  
>> like Csound
>> 4.23.
>>
>> It is asking a lot for people to learn the Csound code and system  
>> already,
>> but now it is just a pain in the ass getting it installed on a  
>> computer. It
>> might has well be one of those programmer versions of Linux that  
>> only a
>> programmer could install and work with.
>>
>> I agree with the remarks that Csound now feels like some exclusive
>> programmer club with the lay people like me being pushed out of  
>> the way. I
>> have been very turned off by this and am thinking of switching to  
>> max where
>> I can get ease of use by paying for it.
>>
>> I think that this is a serious issue when Dr. Boulanger who wrote  
>> the "Book"
>> on Csound is saying that people he knows are migrating to other  
>> systems. It
>> needs to be addressed otherwise Csound could actually become a  
>> shunned piece
>> of software due to needless and pointless difficulty in using it.
>>
>> I would be willing to pay money for Csound if I knew that it would  
>> work
>> correctly right away without any problems.
>>
>> Enough said - give the musicians a version that runs easily and  
>> smoothly
>> were all of the functions are available.
>>
>> B.
>>
>>> From: Michael Rhoades 
>>> Reply-To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>> To: 
>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:48:30 -0400
>>>
>>> Hi Mike.
>>>
>>> I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so  
>>> my answer
>>> is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using  
>>> only the
>>> orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my  
>>> sco using
>>> Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like  
>>> about Winsound
>>> is that if none of the file names have changed since the last  
>>> render, I use
>>> a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not  
>>> need or
>>> want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a  
>>> really
>>> quick
>>> way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the
>>> better.
>>> Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do  
>>> change a file
>>> name it is all right there in the main window.
>>>
>>> CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there  
>>> seem to be
>>> too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive,  
>>> transparent way. It
>>> looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import  
>>> files. Am I
>>> missing something?
>>>
>>> So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can  
>>> put all
>>> my
>>> attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a  
>>> matter of
>>> maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as  
>>> composers.
>>>
>>> Thanks for listening,
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
>>>
>>>> CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me,  
>>>> every time I
>>> have
>>>> tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does  
>>>> Winsound do
>>> that
>>>> CsoundVST does not do?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
>>>>> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
>>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>>>>
>>>>> I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous  
>>>>> of me but
>>> I
>>>>> want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get  
>>>>> to happen
>>> so
>>>>> far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same
>>> functionality
>>>>> as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of  
>>>>> the new
>>>>> features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional
>>> processes.
>>>>> That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
>>>>>
>>>>> I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5
>>> happen. I
>>>>> am sure it is an enormous task.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
>>>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
>>>>>> frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel  
>>>>>> et al
>>>>>> (Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by  
>>>>>> simply
>>>>>> clicking on a few key elements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
>>>>>> encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but  
>>>>>> that is
>>>>>> why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
>>>>>> experiencing some growing pains - since people are just  
>>>>>> beginning to
>>>>>> realize the potential of this elegant design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5  
>>>>>> support, all
>>>>>> of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be  
>>>>>> intrigued by
>>>>>> Csound once again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to  
>>>>>> film
>>> use
>>>>>> specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound  
>>>>>> exists
>>>>>> and it "just works".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More of this is required if the Csound community wants to  
>>>>>> maintain
>>> it's
>>>>>> draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers  
>>>>>> looking for
>>>>>> something fun to do in their downtime.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> $0.02, well spent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in  
>>>>>>> comparison to
>>>>>>> earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no  
>>>>>>> problem in
>>>>>>> upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user  
>>>>>>> by any
>>>>>>> means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can  
>>>>>>> incorporate
>>>>>>> your views into future releases?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael Rhoades wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello All.
>>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html,  
>>>>>>>> frames
>>>>>>>> version
>>>>>>>> of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version  
>>>>>>>> 4.23f. I
>>> have
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as  
>>>>>>>> the online
>>>>>>>> version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to  
>>>>>>>> find a
>>>>>>>> copy of it
>>>>>>>> in my backups.
>>>>>>>> Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
>>>>>>>> I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I  
>>>>>>>> intend no
>>>>>>>> disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on  
>>>>>>>> Csound 5,
>>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>> am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
>>>>>>>> predecessors
>>>>>>>> appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its  
>>>>>>>> utter
>>>>>>>> simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I  
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> liked to
>>>>>>>> have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been  
>>>>>>>> optimized
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
>>>>>>>> Admittedly,
>>>>>>>> I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with  
>>>>>>>> Csound
>>> 5.
>>>>>>>> Thanks for letting me vent.
>>>>>>>> Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3  
>>>>>>>> page. I
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> love to hear any comments...
>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>
>>> --
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -  
>> it's FREE!
>> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>
>> --
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk

-----------------------------------

Joseph Sanger

joseph.sanger@virgin.net

As for me; I do not know if these views generally express negativity as much
as concern and perhaps some frustration. If people did not care and said
nothing I feel that would be very negative. It takes all of us to influence
the form Csound is taking. This has been, and still is, a crucial period in
its evolution. We all know how much the programmers contribute and that we
would be lost without them. Their freely offered efforts have enabled me to
compose in ways I have always dreamed of. I think most of us are getting
very anxious to be able to implement their amazing new contributions into
our compositional processes. 

As we can see, everyone works with Csound in different ways. To be able to
provide everyone with access to version 5, in a way that is comfortable to
each, is going to require some discussion and for each of us to learn, adapt
and expand our understanding. 

The bottom line is we are all doing it for the music.

You are right, Joseph. It has perhaps not been said enough; 

Many thanks to all the developers and contributors!! You guys are awesome!

    

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Sanger [mailto:joseph.sanger@virgin.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:01 AM
> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> I have been following this debate and I felt I should log my views. I
> am quite new to Csound, programming and digital music generally and
> come from a "live" background. I used MacCsound for a while and have
> in the last couple of weeks begun to use Csound5 on my G4 powerbook.
> I have had very few problems and found both the forums and this list
> to be a great help.
> 
> I felt there had been a lot of negative views expressed and I wish to
> slightly redress that balance, and recognise the hard work which so
> many people put in to this project.
> 
> Joe
> 
> On 27 Apr 2006, at 05:15, Steven Yi wrote:
> 
> > Hi Bruce,
> >
> > As far as I can see, steps are being taken towards remedying problems
> > that you and others have reported.  They might not get addressed as
> > quickly as one (or most people here it seems) wants, but they *are*
> > taken seriously by the developers.  The installers, which are
> > completely new since Csound5, have gotten better due to users
> > reporting problems, and do more to setup Csound environment variables
> > than Csound4 ever did. They're not perfect, but they're getting
> > better, and a lot of that is due to user feedback.  Users voiced
> > concern that an interface like Winsound doesn't exist and very quickly
> > John put together a new one for Csound5 and now it seems like Istvan
> > is putting together something as well.  These should only further
> > simplify setup and usage.
> >
> > I think that Csound is most certainly *not* an exclusive programmer
> > club, and I find such language divisive and baseless.  I have yet to
> > hear a developer here say "you need to be a programmer to do xxx" or
> > anything to the effect of excluding those who are not developers.
> > They might make some assumptions sometimes about what people either
> > know or are willing to do to get things going, but never have I read
> > an intentional sleight against non-programmers.  On the contrary, all
> > I've ever seen are gestures to help those who have had questions and
> > problems, whether technical or musical.
> >
> > If you feel that there are issues that would positively affect yours
> > and others user experience, voice your concerns (as you have) but
> > please do so without the negative tone.  It's not very rewarding for
> > anyone here--developer or user--to read messages with strong
> > inflamatory language and imperative declamations, and your point will
> > still be heard without it.  It might even make the work of fixing the
> > bugs and fielding requests more enjoyable.
> >
> > By the way: when you say "Enough said - give the musicians a version
> > that runs easily and smoothly where all of the functions are
> > available.", just to let you know, the people who are developing
> > Csound are musicians too, and as far as I know, would rather spend
> > time working on their music than on Csound (and yet they are still
> > kind enough to give their time to it).  For them and others not in
> > your situation, Csound5 *does* run easily and smoothly and has all the
> > functions available.  It's obvious that isn't the case yet for
> > everyone, but it doesn't mean that nothing is being done or that there
> > is a conspiracy against users in some way.
> >
> > steven
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/26/06, Bruce Lamb  wrote:
> >> This is exactly how I use Csound - WinXoundPro and Render - Real
> >> simple yet
> >> very effective because I can focus on just the Csound code. All of
> >> the
> >> postings on this issue is exactly what I was complaining about 2
> >> months ago
> >> on this list.
> >>
> >> I can't even get Csound 5 installed on my computer - why?? Why do
> >> I have to
> >> deal with Python error messages? Why do I even have to deal with
> >> Python? I
> >> am not a programmer, nor do I have the time to be a programmer.
> >> There should
> >> be no reason that Csound 5 can not just run right out of the box
> >> like Csound
> >> 4.23.
> >>
> >> It is asking a lot for people to learn the Csound code and system
> >> already,
> >> but now it is just a pain in the ass getting it installed on a
> >> computer. It
> >> might has well be one of those programmer versions of Linux that
> >> only a
> >> programmer could install and work with.
> >>
> >> I agree with the remarks that Csound now feels like some exclusive
> >> programmer club with the lay people like me being pushed out of
> >> the way. I
> >> have been very turned off by this and am thinking of switching to
> >> max where
> >> I can get ease of use by paying for it.
> >>
> >> I think that this is a serious issue when Dr. Boulanger who wrote
> >> the "Book"
> >> on Csound is saying that people he knows are migrating to other
> >> systems. It
> >> needs to be addressed otherwise Csound could actually become a
> >> shunned piece
> >> of software due to needless and pointless difficulty in using it.
> >>
> >> I would be willing to pay money for Csound if I knew that it would
> >> work
> >> correctly right away without any problems.
> >>
> >> Enough said - give the musicians a version that runs easily and
> >> smoothly
> >> were all of the functions are available.
> >>
> >> B.
> >>
> >>> From: Michael Rhoades 
> >>> Reply-To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>> To: 
> >>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:48:30 -0400
> >>>
> >>> Hi Mike.
> >>>
> >>> I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so
> >>> my answer
> >>> is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using
> >>> only the
> >>> orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my
> >>> sco using
> >>> Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like
> >>> about Winsound
> >>> is that if none of the file names have changed since the last
> >>> render, I use
> >>> a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not
> >>> need or
> >>> want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a
> >>> really
> >>> quick
> >>> way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the
> >>> better.
> >>> Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do
> >>> change a file
> >>> name it is all right there in the main window.
> >>>
> >>> CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there
> >>> seem to be
> >>> too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive,
> >>> transparent way. It
> >>> looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import
> >>> files. Am I
> >>> missing something?
> >>>
> >>> So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can
> >>> put all
> >>> my
> >>> attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a
> >>> matter of
> >>> maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as
> >>> composers.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for listening,
> >>>
> >>> Michael
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me,
> >>>> every time I
> >>> have
> >>>> tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does
> >>>> Winsound do
> >>> that
> >>>> CsoundVST does not do?
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Mike
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
> >>>>> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
> >>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous
> >>>>> of me but
> >>> I
> >>>>> want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get
> >>>>> to happen
> >>> so
> >>>>> far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same
> >>> functionality
> >>>>> as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of
> >>>>> the new
> >>>>> features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional
> >>> processes.
> >>>>> That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5
> >>> happen. I
> >>>>> am sure it is an enormous task.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
> >>>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
> >>>>>> frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel
> >>>>>> et al
> >>>>>> (Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by
> >>>>>> simply
> >>>>>> clicking on a few key elements.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
> >>>>>> encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but
> >>>>>> that is
> >>>>>> why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
> >>>>>> experiencing some growing pains - since people are just
> >>>>>> beginning to
> >>>>>> realize the potential of this elegant design.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5
> >>>>>> support, all
> >>>>>> of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be
> >>>>>> intrigued by
> >>>>>> Csound once again.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to
> >>>>>> film
> >>> use
> >>>>>> specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound
> >>>>>> exists
> >>>>>> and it "just works".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> More of this is required if the Csound community wants to
> >>>>>> maintain
> >>> it's
> >>>>>> draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers
> >>>>>> looking for
> >>>>>> something fun to do in their downtime.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> $0.02, well spent.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -David
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in
> >>>>>>> comparison to
> >>>>>>> earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no
> >>>>>>> problem in
> >>>>>>> upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user
> >>>>>>> by any
> >>>>>>> means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can
> >>>>>>> incorporate
> >>>>>>> your views into future releases?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rory.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Michael Rhoades wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hello All.
> >>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html,
> >>>>>>>> frames
> >>>>>>>> version
> >>>>>>>> of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version
> >>>>>>>> 4.23f. I
> >>> have
> >>>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>>> searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as
> >>>>>>>> the online
> >>>>>>>> version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to
> >>>>>>>> find a
> >>>>>>>> copy of it
> >>>>>>>> in my backups.
> >>>>>>>> Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
> >>>>>>>> I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I
> >>>>>>>> intend no
> >>>>>>>> disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on
> >>>>>>>> Csound 5,
> >>>>>>>> but I
> >>>>>>>> am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
> >>>>>>>> predecessors
> >>>>>>>> appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its
> >>>>>>>> utter
> >>>>>>>> simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I
> >>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>> liked to
> >>>>>>>> have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been
> >>>>>>>> optimized
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
> >>>>>>>> Admittedly,
> >>>>>>>> I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with
> >>>>>>>> Csound
> >>> 5.
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for letting me vent.
> >>>>>>>> Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3
> >>>>>>>> page. I
> >>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>> love to hear any comments...
> >>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Send bugs reports to this list.
> >>> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
> >> it's FREE!
> >> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> >>
> >> --
> >> Send bugs reports to this list.
> >> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> >>
> > --
> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> > To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> 
> -----------------------------------
> 
> Joseph Sanger
> 
> joseph.sanger@virgin.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
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Hear! Hear!  It is discussions and posts such as those that I was reading in
this thread yesterday that I find extremely discouraging and acutally drive
me AWAY from Csound development periodically.

Anthony Kozar
anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net


Steven Yi wrote on 4/27/06 12:15 AM:

> If you feel that there are issues that would positively affect yours
> and others user experience, voice your concerns (as you have) but
> please do so without the negative tone.  It's not very rewarding for
> anyone here--developer or user--to read messages with strong
> inflamatory language and imperative declamations, and your point will
> still be heard without it.  It might even make the work of fixing the
> bugs and fielding requests more enjoyable.

Well, if you and at least 20 other people were each willing to chip in about
$50, I bet that would be a great start at convincing one of the developers
to address your concerns more promptly.  (1)  But until that happens, you
may just have to accept the slow pace of volunteer development.

I am concerned that Csound 5 has been frustrating for you and others.  We
will eventually make it work for everyone!  :)

Anthony Kozar
anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net

(1) In fact, for about $1000 I would be more than happy to address anyone's
concerns for the MacOS 9 version of Csound. *grin*  That might even be
enough money to convince me to begin porting the Mills interface to OS X
(although I would expect that to take more than 100 hours of work, so keep
the cash flowing in that case ;)


Bruce Lamb wrote on 4/26/06 8:44 PM:

> I would be willing to pay money for Csound if I knew that it would work
> correctly right away without any problems.
> 
> Enough said - give the musicians a version that runs easily and smoothly
> were all of the functions are available.