You are correct that with CsoundVST you either have to use the builtin editor, or import files. 

However, it would VERY easy to change it so that this is not necessary, and it simply executes the Csound command without exporting files. It would then behave more like WinSound. I would simply add another check box to the GUI ("Perform without export" or something).

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Rhoades 
>Sent: Apr 26, 2006 7:48 PM
>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>
>Hi Mike.
>
>I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so my answer
>is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using only the
>orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my sco using
>Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like about Winsound
>is that if none of the file names have changed since the last render, I use
>a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not need or
>want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a really quick
>way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the better.
>Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do change a file
>name it is all right there in the main window.
>
>CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there seem to be
>too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive, transparent way. It
>looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import files. Am I
>missing something?
>
>So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can put all my
>attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a matter of
>maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as composers.
>
>Thanks for listening,
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>
>On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
>
>> CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me, every time I have
>> tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does Winsound do that
>> CsoundVST does not do?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
>>> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>> 
>>> I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous of me but I
>>> want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get to happen so
>>> far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same functionality
>>> as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of the new
>>> features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional processes.
>>> That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
>>> 
>>> I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5 happen. I
>>> am sure it is an enormous task.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>>> 
>>>> IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
>>>> frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel et al
>>>> (Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by simply
>>>> clicking on a few key elements.
>>>> 
>>>> The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
>>>> encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but that is
>>>> why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
>>>> experiencing some growing pains - since people are just beginning to
>>>> realize the potential of this elegant design.
>>>> 
>>>> If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5 support, all
>>>> of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be intrigued by
>>>> Csound once again.
>>>> 
>>>> Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to film use
>>>> specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound exists
>>>> and it "just works".
>>>> 
>>>> More of this is required if the Csound community wants to maintain it's
>>>> draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers looking for
>>>> something fun to do in their downtime.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> $0.02, well spent.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -David
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in comparison to
>>>>> earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no problem in
>>>>> upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user by any
>>>>> means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can incorporate
>>>>> your views into future releases?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rory.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Michael Rhoades wrote:
>>>>>> Hello All.
>>>>>> Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html, frames
>>>>>> version
>>>>>> of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version 4.23f. I have
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as the online
>>>>>> version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to find a
>>>>>> copy of it
>>>>>> in my backups.
>>>>>> Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
>>>>>> I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I intend no
>>>>>> disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on Csound 5,
>>>>>> but I
>>>>>> am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
>>>>>> predecessors
>>>>>> appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its utter
>>>>>> simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I would
>>>>>> liked to
>>>>>> have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been optimized
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
>>>>>> Admittedly,
>>>>>> I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with Csound 5.
>>>>>> Thanks for letting me vent.
>>>>>> Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3 page. I
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> love to hear any comments...
>>>>>> Michael
>
>-- 
>Send bugs reports to this list.
>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk

That would be great Mike. I would love to use CsoundVST in my work.

These are the key features that I depend upon in Winsound.

1. A section with boxes (fields) that allow me to browse to and select or
type in the the name of the orc, sco and output filename. Whatever was typed
in the boxes stays there when the app is started the next time. Very nice
for project management.

2. A button to click on or the ability to hit the enter button on my
keyboard to begin the rendering. An easy way to stop it if I have made a
mistake.

3. The above in one main window.

4. An easy way to set the locations of the SSDIR, SFDIR and the SADIR, like
a "Preferences" or "Options" section. It is ENV in Winsound. This eliminates
the need to "set variables", which I really appreciate.

5. Feedback in the render window that is very informative if there are
errors and especially to tell me the overall amplitude of the output file
when it is finished. (The latter is critical for my ears, speakers and
headphones.) I read this file very closely when debugging my code.
Winsound's syntax has become second nature to me.

6. A way to visually view my waveforms (in the function tables) as the file
is rendering. A way to turn this feature off if desired (checkbox).


I do not know if you have really looked closely at Winsound 4.xx but it has
everything one needs in a very compact and simple, single window. I use most
of the features when I set things up for a project but then it keeps my
settings so I do not have to do anything more until I change something. It
has everything I need and very little that I do not. Plus, it just plain
works...

Interestingly, I am beginning to greatly appreciate the immense amount of
thought and consideration that has gone into Winsound to make it what it is
with regard to the end user's needs. Did John ffitch create it? The more I
consider it, the more perfect it seems... extremely elegant in its
simplicity. A work of art that even an non-programmer can appreciate.


Thank you very much for your support Mike.

Michael




On 4/26/06 8:09 PM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:

> You are correct that with CsoundVST you either have to use the builtin editor,
> or import files. 
> 
> However, it would VERY easy to change it so that this is not necessary, and it
> simply executes the Csound command without exporting files. It would then
> behave more like WinSound. I would simply add another check box to the GUI
> ("Perform without export" or something).
> 
> Regards,
> Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Rhoades 
>> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 7:48 PM
>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>> 
>> Hi Mike.
>> 
>> I would imagine I work differently than most Csound users and so my answer
>> is strictly with regard to my own process. I write my .orc using only the
>> orc window of WinXoundPro (love the syntax highlighting) and my sco using
>> Excel (love the numerical manipulation aspects). What I like about Winsound
>> is that if none of the file names have changed since the last render, I use
>> a key shortcut to start it and hit enter and it renders. I do not need or
>> want an editor for the sco or the orc in that interface. Just a really quick
>> way to render my next sound file. The simpler this operation is, the better.
>> Generally I make two keystrokes and I am rendering. If I do change a file
>> name it is all right there in the main window.
>> 
>> CsoundVST looks great and it is wonderfully fast but IMHO there seem to be
>> too many hoops to jump through to work in an intuitive, transparent way. It
>> looks like you either have to use the built in editor or import files. Am I
>> missing something?
>> 
>> So Winsound's lack of features is what attracts me. With it I can put all my
>> attention on refining the orc and sco. Like Dr. B. says it is a matter of
>> maintaining the flow in that "zone" we crave and develop as composers.
>> 
>> Thanks for listening,
>> 
>> Michael
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/26/06 11:58 AM, "Michael Gogins"  wrote:
>> 
>>> CsoundVST runs "out of the box" from the installer, for me, every time I
>>> have
>>> tried it, as long as Python is installed first. What does Winsound do that
>>> CsoundVST does not do?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: mrhoades@perceptionfactory.com
>>>> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 10:39 AM
>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>>> 
>>>> I would agree with this point of view. It may be presumptuous of me but I
>>>> want to install Winsound and have it work, which I cannot get to happen so
>>>> far after several attempts, and I would like to have the same functionality
>>>> as version 4.23 Winsound. Then as I understand the potential of the new
>>>> features I will begin to incorporate them into my compositional processes.
>>>> That all may be easier said than done at present... I do not know.
>>>> 
>>>> I truly appreciate everyone working so diligently to make Csound 5 happen.
>>>> I
>>>> am sure it is an enormous task.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: David Akbari [mailto:dakbari@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:06 AM
>>>>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>>>> 
>>>>> IMHO, it just boils down to the fact that there are not enough
>>>>> frontends like MacCsound, CsoundAV (Csound 4), Lettuce, Cabel et al
>>>>> (Csound 5) that composers can use "right out of the box" by simply
>>>>> clicking on a few key elements.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The API design of Csound 5 lends itself well to the idea of
>>>>> encapsulating the Csound language in any number of ways, but that is
>>>>> why I do not believe it to be exaggerated to say that Csound is
>>>>> experiencing some growing pains - since people are just beginning to
>>>>> realize the potential of this elegant design.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If and when MacCsound, Cecilia and CsoundAV have Csound5 support, all
>>>>> of the users that migrated to SuperCollider may just be intrigued by
>>>>> Csound once again.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many of my friends and colleagues that use Csound composing to film use
>>>>> specifically Cecilia since they don't even have to know Csound exists
>>>>> and it "just works".
>>>>> 
>>>>> More of this is required if the Csound community wants to maintain it's
>>>>> draw of musicians and composers and not just programmers looking for
>>>>> something fun to do in their downtime.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> $0.02, well spent.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -David
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 26, 2006, at 8:40 AM, Rory Walsh wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> What exactly do you think Csound5 fails to offer in comparison to
>>>>>> earlier versions? As a user of csound for a while I had no problem in
>>>>>> upgrading to Csound5, saying that I am not an advanced user by any
>>>>>> means. Perhaps if you let the developers know they can incorporate
>>>>>> your views into future releases?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rory.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Michael Rhoades wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello All.
>>>>>>> Can anyone tell me where I can download a copy of the html, frames
>>>>>>> version
>>>>>>> of the Csound manual? Ideally this would be for version 4.23f. I have
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> searching extensively for it and cannot find it except as the online
>>>>>>> version. I recently rebuilt my computer and cannot seem to find a
>>>>>>> copy of it
>>>>>>> in my backups.
>>>>>>> Also, a bit of an "against the grain" comment:
>>>>>>> I realize I am likely in the minority on this list and I intend no
>>>>>>> disrespect to the amazing developers working diligently on Csound 5,
>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>> am somewhat  disappointed that the concept of version 4 and its
>>>>>>> predecessors
>>>>>>> appears not to be being developed further. I love it for its utter
>>>>>>> simplicity, elegance and usability. It has a few bugs that I would
>>>>>>> liked to
>>>>>>> have seen cleaned up and perhaps the code could have been optimized
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> speed. But otherwise it is a beautiful thing in its simplicity.
>>>>>>> Admittedly,
>>>>>>> I am rather overwhelmed as a composer, non-programmer, with Csound 5.
>>>>>>> Thanks for letting me vent.
>>>>>>> Lastly, I have a new composition called "Release!" on my mp3 page. I
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> love to hear any comments...
>>>>>>> Michael
>> 
>> -- 
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> 
> 

All of this sounds very similar to the MacOS 7-9 front end developed by Matt
Ingalls ("Mills Csound").  I have been maintaining this front end and it is
included as a standard part of the MacOS distribution of Csound 5.

Maybe everyone who wants a simple GUI for Csound 5 that does not get in
their way should switch to MacOS 9  ;^)

Anthony Kozar
anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net


Michael Rhoades wrote on 4/26/06 9:12 PM:

> These are the key features that I depend upon in Winsound.
> 
> 1. A section with boxes (fields) that allow me to browse to and select or
> type in the the name of the orc, sco and output filename. Whatever was typed
> in the boxes stays there when the app is started the next time. Very nice
> for project management.
> 
> 2. A button to click on or the ability to hit the enter button on my
> keyboard to begin the rendering. An easy way to stop it if I have made a
> mistake.
> 
> 3. The above in one main window.
> 
> 4. An easy way to set the locations of the SSDIR, SFDIR and the SADIR, like
> a "Preferences" or "Options" section. It is ENV in Winsound. This eliminates
> the need to "set variables", which I really appreciate.
> 
> 5. Feedback in the render window that is very informative if there are
> errors and especially to tell me the overall amplitude of the output file
> when it is finished. (The latter is critical for my ears, speakers and
> headphones.) I read this file very closely when debugging my code.
> Winsound's syntax has become second nature to me.
> 
> 6. A way to visually view my waveforms (in the function tables) as the file
> is rendering. A way to turn this feature off if desired (checkbox).
> 
> 
> I do not know if you have really looked closely at Winsound 4.xx but it has
> everything one needs in a very compact and simple, single window. I use most
> of the features when I set things up for a project but then it keeps my
> settings so I do not have to do anything more until I change something. It
> has everything I need and very little that I do not. Plus, it just plain
> works...

I remember that Anthony. It was very simple and easy... Even more so than
Winsound as I recall...

I may have to dig out that beige G3!



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony Kozar [mailto:anthonykozar@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:57 AM
> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
> 
> All of this sounds very similar to the MacOS 7-9 front end developed by
> Matt
> Ingalls ("Mills Csound").  I have been maintaining this front end and it
> is
> included as a standard part of the MacOS distribution of Csound 5.
> 
> Maybe everyone who wants a simple GUI for Csound 5 that does not get in
> their way should switch to MacOS 9  ;^)
> 
> Anthony Kozar
> anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net
> 
> 
> Michael Rhoades wrote on 4/26/06 9:12 PM:
> 
> > These are the key features that I depend upon in Winsound.
> >
> > 1. A section with boxes (fields) that allow me to browse to and select
> or
> > type in the the name of the orc, sco and output filename. Whatever was
> typed
> > in the boxes stays there when the app is started the next time. Very
> nice
> > for project management.
> >
> > 2. A button to click on or the ability to hit the enter button on my
> > keyboard to begin the rendering. An easy way to stop it if I have made a
> > mistake.
> >
> > 3. The above in one main window.
> >
> > 4. An easy way to set the locations of the SSDIR, SFDIR and the SADIR,
> like
> > a "Preferences" or "Options" section. It is ENV in Winsound. This
> eliminates
> > the need to "set variables", which I really appreciate.
> >
> > 5. Feedback in the render window that is very informative if there are
> > errors and especially to tell me the overall amplitude of the output
> file
> > when it is finished. (The latter is critical for my ears, speakers and
> > headphones.) I read this file very closely when debugging my code.
> > Winsound's syntax has become second nature to me.
> >
> > 6. A way to visually view my waveforms (in the function tables) as the
> file
> > is rendering. A way to turn this feature off if desired (checkbox).
> >
> >
> > I do not know if you have really looked closely at Winsound 4.xx but it
> has
> > everything one needs in a very compact and simple, single window. I use
> most
> > of the features when I set things up for a project but then it keeps my
> > settings so I do not have to do anything more until I change something.
> It
> > has everything I need and very little that I do not. Plus, it just plain
> > works...
> 
> 
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/2005
> 
> 

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release Date: 2/14/2005
 

Matt Ingalls FrontEnds are excellent and they always have been.

His MillsCsound environment was wonderful and wonderfully productive  
- as was/is his MacCsound system.

  I can't wait for him to finish MacCsound5.

On Apr 27, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Anthony Kozar wrote:

> All of this sounds very similar to the MacOS 7-9 front end  
> developed by Matt
> Ingalls ("Mills Csound").  I have been maintaining this front end  
> and it is
> included as a standard part of the MacOS distribution of Csound 5.
>
> Maybe everyone who wants a simple GUI for Csound 5 that does not  
> get in
> their way should switch to MacOS 9  ;^)
>
> Anthony Kozar
> anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net
>
>
> Michael Rhoades wrote on 4/26/06 9:12 PM:
>
>> These are the key features that I depend upon in Winsound.
>>
>> 1. A section with boxes (fields) that allow me to browse to and  
>> select or
>> type in the the name of the orc, sco and output filename. Whatever  
>> was typed
>> in the boxes stays there when the app is started the next time.  
>> Very nice
>> for project management.
>>
>> 2. A button to click on or the ability to hit the enter button on my
>> keyboard to begin the rendering. An easy way to stop it if I have  
>> made a
>> mistake.
>>
>> 3. The above in one main window.
>>
>> 4. An easy way to set the locations of the SSDIR, SFDIR and the  
>> SADIR, like
>> a "Preferences" or "Options" section. It is ENV in Winsound. This  
>> eliminates
>> the need to "set variables", which I really appreciate.
>>
>> 5. Feedback in the render window that is very informative if there  
>> are
>> errors and especially to tell me the overall amplitude of the  
>> output file
>> when it is finished. (The latter is critical for my ears, speakers  
>> and
>> headphones.) I read this file very closely when debugging my code.
>> Winsound's syntax has become second nature to me.
>>
>> 6. A way to visually view my waveforms (in the function tables) as  
>> the file
>> is rendering. A way to turn this feature off if desired (checkbox).
>>
>>
>> I do not know if you have really looked closely at Winsound 4.xx  
>> but it has
>> everything one needs in a very compact and simple, single window.  
>> I use most
>> of the features when I set things up for a project but then it  
>> keeps my
>> settings so I do not have to do anything more until I change  
>> something. It
>> has everything I need and very little that I do not. Plus, it just  
>> plain
>> works...
>
>