Thanks for the information... I thought Python was part of the problem. There are 2 things that could be done:

(1) Make the Csound installer install Python if it's not already installed. Obviously this doesn't help with size problems!

(2) Make CsoundVST use Lua not Python (Lua can be built right into Csound; it's TINY but basically as powerful as Python -- and faster too, but not quite as easy to write).

And that raises another question:

What does Lettuce do that CsoundVST doesn't do?

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: David Akbari 
>Sent: Apr 26, 2006 4:46 PM
>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>
>
>On Apr 26, 2006, at 11:58 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:
>
>> What does Winsound do that CsoundVST does not do?
>
>Run without the necessary presence of Python 2.4.
>
>When trying to install Csound5 on older DX486 machines for example, 
>where the Hard Drive is only 1GB in size, it makes a huge difference to 
>require users to install Python when they're just trying to use Csound5 
>*to make music*. As a musician myself, I still have yet to discover any 
>real musical utility in the Python language - not because it isn't 
>there, but because I'm usually too busy writing music to try and learn 
>another high level language. To be honest I really only use Python as a 
>calculator for its built in eval function.
>
>I have many friends and colleagues that are musicians and composers 
>that are beginning to shy away from Csound because they "never want to 
>see the Terminal". This is a fact of life - not for computer musicians 
>but for the mainstream audience. I hate to see so many of my peers 
>migrating to other languages (mostly ChucK and SuperCollider) simply 
>because they have "pretty" frontends that don't require a lot of typing 
>(other than the Csound language itself) to get making sound.
>
>CsoundVST definitely runs out of the box, on Windows & Linux it is an 
>excellent and intuitive choice; I use it on the latter OS quite a bit.
>
>If and when Lettuce gets ported to Linux and there is a 
>MacCsound5/Cecilia5 I would expect to see no less than a surge in the 
>Csound user base. A CsoundVST that links properly into a .dylib on the 
>Mac would also be a huge bonus.
>
>To summarize, my point is that there has to be more of a conscious 
>effort by the Csound Developers and Community to ** not let the medium 
>influence the (musical) message **. If this is within reach, then we 
>are on the verge of a new golden era in music making AND PRODUCTION 
>(yes, it can be a viable production tool) using Csound as the solitary 
>tool.
>
>
>
>-David
>
>-- 
>Send bugs reports to this list.
>To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk

As far as I can see CsoundVST is a frontend for for running Csound both 
in standalone fashion and as a VST host while Lettuce is more of a 
csound IDE. In fact I can't see why winsound would ever need to be 
updated as CsoundVST does everything winsound did and more? Lettuce also 
allows users to create standalone windows binaries that support a range 
of GUI controls, without using FLTK. For now however Lettuce only runs 
on windows... which is the main problem and one I want to address 
shortly. Saying that Lettuce should run right out of the box so long as 
the latest version of Csound is installed.

Rory.




Michael Gogins wrote:
> Thanks for the information... I thought Python was part of the problem. There are 2 things that could be done:
> 
> (1) Make the Csound installer install Python if it's not already installed. Obviously this doesn't help with size problems!
> 
> (2) Make CsoundVST use Lua not Python (Lua can be built right into Csound; it's TINY but basically as powerful as Python -- and faster too, but not quite as easy to write).
> 
> And that raises another question:
> 
> What does Lettuce do that CsoundVST doesn't do?
> 
> Regards,
> Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Akbari 
>> Sent: Apr 26, 2006 4:46 PM
>> To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>> Subject: Re: [Csnd] 4.23 Manual
>>
>>
>> On Apr 26, 2006, at 11:58 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:
>>
>>> What does Winsound do that CsoundVST does not do?
>> Run without the necessary presence of Python 2.4.
>>
>> When trying to install Csound5 on older DX486 machines for example, 
>> where the Hard Drive is only 1GB in size, it makes a huge difference to 
>> require users to install Python when they're just trying to use Csound5 
>> *to make music*. As a musician myself, I still have yet to discover any 
>> real musical utility in the Python language - not because it isn't 
>> there, but because I'm usually too busy writing music to try and learn 
>> another high level language. To be honest I really only use Python as a 
>> calculator for its built in eval function.
>>
>> I have many friends and colleagues that are musicians and composers 
>> that are beginning to shy away from Csound because they "never want to 
>> see the Terminal". This is a fact of life - not for computer musicians 
>> but for the mainstream audience. I hate to see so many of my peers 
>> migrating to other languages (mostly ChucK and SuperCollider) simply 
>> because they have "pretty" frontends that don't require a lot of typing 
>> (other than the Csound language itself) to get making sound.
>>
>> CsoundVST definitely runs out of the box, on Windows & Linux it is an 
>> excellent and intuitive choice; I use it on the latter OS quite a bit.
>>
>> If and when Lettuce gets ported to Linux and there is a 
>> MacCsound5/Cecilia5 I would expect to see no less than a surge in the 
>> Csound user base. A CsoundVST that links properly into a .dylib on the 
>> Mac would also be a huge bonus.
>>
>> To summarize, my point is that there has to be more of a conscious 
>> effort by the Csound Developers and Community to ** not let the medium 
>> influence the (musical) message **. If this is within reach, then we 
>> are on the verge of a new golden era in music making AND PRODUCTION 
>> (yes, it can be a viable production tool) using Csound as the solitary 
>> tool.
>>
>>
>>
>> -David
>>
>> -- 
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email to csound-unsubscribe@lists.bath.ac.uk
> 
> 
> 

On Apr 26, 2006, at 5:15 PM, Michael Gogins wrote:

> Thanks for the information... I thought Python was part of the 
> problem. There are 2 things that could be done:
>
> (1) Make the Csound installer install Python if it's not already 
> installed. Obviously this doesn't help with size problems!
>

Isn't there a way in Windows to have it connect to some kind of 
packages repository ? I'm thinking of the MinGW or Cygwin installer 
that queries a database and can install dependencies remotely.

Perhaps this functionality could be added to the Csound for Windows 
installer so that it would locate download Python from the installer 
but not have to be bundled with it.

> (2) Make CsoundVST use Lua not Python (Lua can be built right into 
> Csound; it's TINY but basically as powerful as Python -- and faster 
> too, but not quite as easy to write).
>

Interesting.

> And that raises another question:
>
> What does Lettuce do that CsoundVST doesn't do?

Topically and most relevant, Csound syntax highlighting. It's strange 
the type of psychological effect it has looking at a large Csound 
orchestra when there's no syntax highlighting. It makes things somewhat 
more difficult to debug.

Also the breakpoint editor but I find that it's possible to use Cecilia 
or TclCsound just as easily to generate breakpoint based function 
tables for use with CsoundVST.


-David

Rather than bug the user for not having Python installed, it seems better to
me to simply provide checkboxes in the installer for optional components
that have other dependencies.  This is what other installers do and it is an
available feature in the standard Windows and Mac installers.

So, a box for CsoundVST, a box for Python opcodes & interfaces, a box for
TclCsound, etc.  The help messages for the optional checkboxes should
explain what dependencies are required.  If the user checks a box that
requires Python and they do not have it installed, then maybe they should be
warned.

On MacOS 9, I put all of the Python extras into a separate folder of the
Csound 5 package.  That way the user can install them if they want them, but
they will not see a "Failed to load library pylib" everytime they run Csound
if they do not have Python installed.  I also usually test my packages on a
"clean" machine to verify that end users will have the user experience I
expect them to.

Anthony Kozar
anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net


Steven Yi wrote on 4/26/06 6:03 PM:

> I think that the correct way to go about it would be for the installer
> to check if Python exists on the host system, and if it does not
> exist, offer a message to say "Python was not found on your system. To
> use the Python opcodes and CsoundVST, please install now (Python
> installer available from http://www.python.org) and press Retry, or
> click cancel to continue on with installation.