This is exactly the point you are missing. It is part of the accepted, technical definition of a language that it be able to convey thoughts -- i.e., the contents of propositions. That is what language is for (mainly). If it can't convey thoughts, it is not a language.

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
>From: apalomba@austin.rr.com
>Sent: Feb 13, 2006 5:05 PM
>To: csound@lists.bath.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: [Csnd] Algorithmic composition - the simplest model
>
>I disagree, I would not expect a brother 
>in the hood to understand the structure of an 
>indian raga. He is coming from a different 
>cultural back ground. But that certainly does not
>mean that he would not feel something. Like 
>wise, a person who is listening to Beethoven's
>9th for the first time could very well feel 
>something as well. It is a bit presumptuous of you 
>to assume that they would not. I can listen to 
>Kanye West song and feel the emotive thoughts 
>encoded in that language and I am not from the 
>hood. Obviously the more familiar you are with a
>form of music, the emotive content you may glean
>from.
>
>Incidentally, what is the meaning of Beethoven's 9th 
>symphony you speak of? Do you really know what Beethoven's
>intent was? Was his intent really to make you think, or 
>was it to make you feel. I think the language of music is 
>not really about thinking, it is about feeling. 
>
>
>
>
>Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Erik Spjut 
>Date: Monday, February 13, 2006 3:33 pm
>Subject: Re: [Csnd] Algorithmic composition - the simplest model
>
>> I'm going to agree with Michael and Disagree with Anthony on this one.
>> 
>> Music is not anywhere near a universal language. Try playing some  
>> microtonal mid-eastern music for a brother from the 'hood or a 
>> frat  
>> boy and see how well it's understood.
>> 
>> If we take music that is seriously intended to convey a particular 
>> 
>> meaning and don't include the descriptive text it still doesn't 
>> work.  
>> Just play Beethoven's 6th symphony or Grof�'s Grand Canyon Suite 
>> to a  
>> group of people who've never heard it before (pathetically easy to 
>> 
>> find these days) and ask them to say what it means. You might find 
>> 
>> one or two who will mention the composer's actual intent, but the  
>> majority will describe something else. Once your are told (in 
>> words)  
>> what it means it's easy for most people to hear it, but without 
>> the  
>> words, the communication is not anywhere near accurate.
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 13, 2006, at 12:24 PM, apalomba@austin.rr.com wrote:
>> 
>> > Actually I don't agree with you at all. You are comparing
>> > the language of written word to the musical language
>> > which are not equivalent in complexity. The concept of
>> > a biscuit is hard to describe in the musical language but
>> > I could certainly "make up" some sequence of grammatical
>> > music elements that would describe a biscuit. Perhaps the
>> > melodies would be light and flaky, yet very filling.
>> > I could then notate these grammatical elements and
>> > other musicians could reliably decode and reproduce
>> > my thoughts. And since music is a simpler language,
>> > a language that everyone understand, it does not need to be
>> > translated. So you see I have all the elements of a language
>> > that you describe. In the end, trying to convey a biscuit
>> > in a musical language may be too complicated or beyond the
>> > scope of the language.
>> >
>> > Now poetry is a better analogy because it is trying to do
>> > the same thing music is trying to do. It is trying to
>> > encode emotive thought.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Anthony
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Michael Gogins 
>> > Date: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:32 pm
>> > Subject: Re: [Csnd] Algorithmic composition - the simplest model
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> 
>> ----
>> Prof. R. Erik Spjut (spyoot rhymes with cute)
>> Engineering Department, Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
>> erik_spjut@hmc.edu   Ph. (909) 607-3890  Fax (909) 621-8967
>> 
>> 
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